Acquired - Enron

0:00Obviously, the context is we're doing this episode because of FTX. Right. It's a related party transaction, one could say. It's like LJM. It's like, you know, the Raptors. You know what LJM stands for, right? It's as kids and as wife, right? What a psychopath. Can't possibly be fraud if it's named after my family. I feel like this story is like American Psycho in Houston. Yes. Oh my god, yes.

0:31Welcome to season 11, episode 7 of Acquired, the podcast about great technology companies. Well, sometimes not so great companies. And the stories and playbooks behind them. That's so great companies and the stories and cooked books behind them. Oh, there you go.

0:58That's a dad joke. That is a dad joke. I am Ben Gilbert and I'm the co-founder and managing director of Seattle based Pioneer Square Labs in our venture fund, PSL Ventures. And I'm David Rosenthal and I'm an angel investor based in San Francisco. And we are your hosts. Well, listeners, it brings me no joy to do this episode, but it seems all too appropriate in this moment in 2022. Today, we tell the story of Enron.

1:25It was the seventh biggest company in America by market cap. It was heralded as the pioneer of a new business model during a new technology era. Executives had endorsements, or at least friendships and public appearances with multiple US presidents. It had the Houston Astros baseball stadium and Ron Field bearing its name. It was even named Fortune Magazine's most innovative company, six years in a row.

1:52including in 2001, the year it went bankrupt. Unbelievable. Less than a year after its stock had an all-time high and run filed for the largest bankruptcy in American history to that point. This story is every bit as crazy as the FTX story that we are all watching play out in real time. The parallels are totally uncanny.

2:14A financial trading company that got over leveraged thought they could do no wrong and got tangled up in a web of self-dealing to try and paper over their problems. Individuals profited richly while shareholders were none the wiser. The biggest difference really is that somehow and Ron managed to do it all as a public company in plain daylight the entire time and with much bigger dollar amounts. We have a big thank you to say here the idea for this episode.

2:40came from our good friend and passed acquired guest Andrew Marx. I was in New York on the way back from Lisbon, and I had breakfast with Andrew, and we were talking about FTX, of course, and everything going on. And I was like, how can acquired add to the conversation right now about FTX? And he was like, I've got a good idea. You guys should do and run. And I was like, boom, that is what acquired can add to this conversation.

3:07Well, on the FTX note suffice to say, we will definitely be appending a new intro to that episode. Indeed. All right listeners. Now is a great time to talk about a new partner of ours here on Acquired, LaGora, the agentic operating system that is redefining how the world's best legal teams work.

3:29Yup, it's sort of obvious that AI is going to completely change the legal industry. I bet most of you listening have dropped a contract into some sort of AI chatbot out there. Legora took that insight and asked the question, what if you really built something with that power from the ground up for the legal industry? So the founders did exactly what great founders do, operate with obsessive customer focus. They embedded inside a massive law firm.

3:55for months. They sat with the lawyers just watching how the work really gets done. And that's how you get features that customers love, like tabular review, where you drop in a folder of hundreds of contracts and it pulls every key term into a grid a lawyer can actually work with. Lugora's bed here is interesting. Since it lets each lawyer handle more complexity, any given person can increase the quality of their work and do higher value work. And this means that the pie can grow even as each individual task takes less time.

4:25And they recently launched LaGora agent offering greater intelligence and performance. The agent lets lawyers set an objective. Then it can handle the planning and the execution and delivery of the final product. Legal teams get to maintain full control and transparency since they're still involved where judgment is required. And LaGora works where you already work. You can use it within Microsoft Word while redlining or drafting. The early LaGora numbers essentially speak for themselves. When they have a head to head pilot with their top competitor, they win 70% of the time. Legora now has over a hundred thousand lawyers on the platform from 1200 legal teams in 50 countries. And crazily, they went from one million to a hundred million in ARR in about 18 months. Truly insane numbers. And that is the real test.

5:17Plenty of things demo well, but the question is whether a busy associate actually reaches for it during crunch time, or whether a partner trusts it before going into a conversation with a major client. If your legal team wants to check it out, whether you're a law firm or you're in house at a company, you can learn more at logora.com slash acquired and just tell them that Ben and David sent you.

5:38After this episode, join the Slack, 13,000 smart, curious, thoughtful, well-researched people are in there and we'll be discussing this episode. Without further ado, David, take us in. Listeners, this is not investment advice. David and I may hold investments in the companies we discuss, although I don't think you can invest in any of these companies anymore. Oh, I've got a fun little thing that I'll bring up right at the end of the episode about investing in Enron that blew my mind when I learned this. All right, all right.

6:06The show is for informational and entertainment purposes only, David, over to you. I feel like we also need a disclaimer that this is not accounting advice. This is not accounting advice. This is going to be fun because this is such history now and Ron. And there are many really good books out there. So you read The smartest guys in the room, right? By Bethany McLean. Yep. And I read Conspiracy of Fools by Kurt Eikenwald, both of which I think are really good conspiracy of fools. It's great. It is a very, very well researched history of Enron, and I thought a good place to start is right at the end of the prologue of conspiracy of fools. Kurt Eikenwald writes this and I just thought it was so perfect to frame the Enron story and the FTX story today. He says, this then is more than the tale of one company's fall from grace. It is at its base the story of a wrenching period of economic and political tumult

7:04as revealed through a single corporate scandal. It is a portrait of an America in upheaval at the turn of the 21st century, a country torn between its warship of fast money and its zeal for truth between greed and high-mindedness, between Wall Street and Main Street. Ultimately, it is the story of the untold damage wreaked by a nation's folly, a folly that in time we are all but certain to see again. It's so...

7:33Literally, my god, those words after trying to consume an insane amount of N-ron stuff over the last couple weeks. The thing that occurs to me is this is something that can only occur to this height in the bull market where there's so much capital saturating so many opportunities that people are willing to go way out on the risk curve looking for returns where there's so much FOMO playing into it that they sort of have to pile into these low disclosure, super risky type of assets because everything else is already at all time highs and crazy multiples. And of course, it's the people's fault driving the car that gets us here. But the environment around the car on the road is definitely facilitating it. Well, the investor community, as we saw happen over the last couple of years here, just loses all incentive and desire to ask questions. Yeah. That is what happened.

8:2720 plus years ago. So how did we get there then? And where did Enron come from? Where did Enron come from? We start in the 1970s, in the United States, where a series, for those of you who know your American and indeed world history, a series of oil crises and energy crises shock the nation and the world. First, in 1973, when OPEC, the organization of petroleum exporting countries, starts an oil embargo on the US and other Western nations and the price of energy triples. Think about this. We're talking about the impact of the Russia-Ukraine war on prices in Europe. This was way worse. The consequences of that were that the stock market crashed immediately. The economy entered

9:23A huge recession. I mean, this was the end. This was the slamming of the door on the post-World War II American economic growth miracle. This killed it. And when we've talked about this on the show a few times, the 1970s were brutal. We talked about interest rates going so high. It was because of this, this first oil shock in 1973 and the second in 1979. Unemployment hits 10%. CPI and inflation is above 5% for...

9:52Pretty much the entire decade, it hits a high of 12.4% in 1980, wow. And then famously, when Paul Volker takes over his chairman of the Fed in 1979, brings the hammer down. He brings the hammer down.

10:07I didn't realize how high this was. He raised the Fed funds rate that was at zero a year ago. That was at zero a year ago and that everybody's freaking out because it's at what like three and a half now or something like that. People think it might go to four or five and that's crazy and that's taking the economy. Do you know how high Volker raised it in the early 1980s? 10% above 19%.

10:30Whoa, I assume it had to be because I had always heard that mortgages hit 18. So I was assumed that the mortgages had to be higher than the Fed funds rate. Yeah, I don't think it was above 19% for long, but when it was, I mean, that's like the base lowest interest rate possible. So mortgages must have been in the 20s at that point in time. Wow. Crazy. My God. And that finally did break the back of inflation, but the cost was immense. Doing this research really helped me understand more about the eighties you know in the go-go years of the eighties it was because coming out of this horrible decade of the nineteen seventies yeah of course this was the birth of the wall street mania because the super high interest rates from the vulgar era would have led to unbelievably low multiples on any asset you could buy so of course you've got tons of room to run on investing it

11:26bargain basement prices for things that are going to go up. Yep. Now, what was it that precipitated all this? Like I said, it was the energy crisis, oil shocks and the energy shocks. So starting in the mid-70s, and it takes really 15, 20 years for all this legislation to wind through the government, the US government starts deregulating the energy markets in the US. So if you go back to episodes on Rockefeller and Standard Oil, the initial energy markets in the US were monopolies like it was standard oil right and then what the government brought the hammer down on standard oil and the energy monopolies everything got regulated and utilities energy producers all became regulated government entities where prices of energy were set by the government and when you say regulated you know there's different flavors of this there's something where the government could actually own the utility and you pay the government for the services but there's also sort of a middle ground where

12:23something is so important to the public that price controls are put into place or the free market is not allowed to rain free the government would do something like grant an exclusive monopoly to a certain company and say but the prices have to be here or but you can't make that much margin on it you know this makes sense especially in the post-World War II American economy and way of life power is critically important electricity gasoline for homes, for businesses, for commuting, for factories, all this stuff takes power, like you want stability and low prices. Yep. But then after the 70s, of course, this all gets shook up. So in 1978, Jimmy Carter signs the National Energy Act, which starts to open back up parts of the energy economy in the US to free market competition. And the first big area of the energy industry that deregulates

13:20is the natural gas industry. So enter one Kenneth Lee Lay. Lay, like our first protagonist of this season, Sam Walton, Lay was born in Rome, Missouri in 1942 after Walton. His father was a Baptist preacher who ran a general store out in the Missouri countryside. Then ended up failing.

13:48And Lager up very, very poor, but his family believed in education, and when his older sister graduated high school, his family wanted her to go to college, so they moved the whole family to Columbia, Missouri. Wow, it's like literally the same story. It's crazy. Literally, it's the same story, so that she could live at home, which was the only way they could afford for her to attend to go to the University of Missouri at Columbia. Very, very lovely place, which we have now been to multiple times for a capital camp.

14:16So she goes to the University of Missouri. Ken would follow in her footsteps also go to the University of Missouri where he would discover a lifelong passion for economics. He's a star student in the economics department. He graduates, he goes on to work in the oil industry after he graduates on the nights and weekends while he's working in the industry. He completes a PhD in economics. And then one day he gets a call.

14:46in the mid-1970s, from his old advisor, from Missouri, his old professor, who just got nominated to the Federal Power Commission. Right as all of this deregulation is starting to percolate its way through the government. And so he calls up Lay and says, come join me here in DC and help me work through all this with the government and the industry. So Lay ends up serving as the Deputy Undersecretary of Energy in the Department of the Interior.

15:13right as these oil shocks are happening and deregulation is starting to be talked about. After a few years, he goes back into industry at Florida Gas, a pipeline company in Florida as the president and number two operator within the company. So far in this guy's career, he sounds like the real deal. He totally is.

15:35PhD, economist, civil servant, working in the government, getting DC exposure, going into industry to actually get some operating experience, grew up in a hard era and sort of like had to fight his way through adversity. Yep, he's never deployed for combat, but during Vietnam he ends up going into the Navy. He becomes like a naval intelligence officer. Hmm, by all outward appearance, as he seems like a real good guy at this point in time. He marries his college sweetheart, you know, true American story. So late 70s, early 80s, he's the number two executive at this natural gas pipeline company in Florida. And in 1982, his former boss had moved over to the big leagues in the energy industry, he'd gone to a company called Transco Energy based

16:30in Houston, Texas, which is Silicon Valley of the oil and gas sector. The Silicon Valley of the oil and gas sector, the New York City to the financial industry of the oil and gas sector, everything. If you want to be in energy in America, you want to be in Texas, either in Dallas or Houston, but I think at this point in time, Houston, probably Houston. Yep. So lay is now in the big time.

16:56as is fitting for now being in the big time of the era. He leaves his wife behind in Florida and moves to Houston with his new wife, who was his secretary at Florida Gas. Unfortunately, classic for this story. Classic. This is not the last time we're going to hear something to this effect in people's personal lives in the Enron story. So right as he arrives in Houston at Transco, two things are happening.

17:26One, as I've been talking about all along here, deregulation is finally percolating through to industry, Carter's signed the Energy Act. It's in full swing. But two, surprisingly here in 1982, energy prices fall for the first time in a decade. So as a result, right after the lay shows up, Transco runs into a problem.

17:49It's contracted to buy a whole bunch of oil and gas assets from various producers, various drillers, you know, around Texas and around the country. And those contracts have transgo buying the assets at an ever increasing price because the prices of oil and gas have only been going up for the last decade. But market prices have just fallen. So they're really kind of in the lurch here. People think the transgo might go under. Leigh, remember, he's a PhD economist and he's really quite brilliant.

18:18He comes up with an idea based on all of the economic theory that he knows. He's like, what if we set up a trading market for this oil and gas that we're contracted to buy and especially in natural gas, which is now deregulated enough that I think we can do this. And rather than us as the pipeline company buying all of this gas from the producers, we'll just operate the pipelines in the middle and we'll make this market.

18:48and we'll let the end consumers of the gas, the factories, the utilities, consumers aren't buying this directly, but the utility companies are, we'll let them through us trade with the producers, and we can create a spot market for energy. This becomes a huge success. This is like a massive, massive innovation. And so, Transco was doing this. Transco was doing this. So, Lei, he becomes like a total industry legend. He pioneers this.

19:17before transgo in lay, the whole idea of like any form of trading or financialization of energy of oil and gas didn't really exist because it was all regulated by the government before then. Right. Not to mention, securitization wasn't a trend even in finance yet. Today, you can securitize anything. We had, of course, in 2008, everyone became familiar with the term mortgage back securities, but Securitization in the 80s and 90s became all the rage and finance to basically get anything off your books. You could increase the velocity at which a financial company could operate by packaging up risk and selling it to someone else so that you could make new loans off your books or something like that. Of course, this was going to come to energy at some point, but it's important to remember that securitization is still a reasonably new concept even on Wall Street. Yep. So two things. One, this is not yet.

20:11Securitization of energy assets. This is simply just making a market for the first time between producers and consumers of the energy where they can buy and sell on the spot market. At a real time, appropriate price. Real time price. Like, today, I need energy. I'm going to look at the market that Transco is now making. I am going to buy as a consumer of energy at today's market price. Whereas in the past, it was all long-term contracts that the pipelines had entered into with the producers and then the consumers of the energy would buy it from the pipelines. I see. Okay. So we're like, crawl walk run here. Crawl walk run. Yeah. Yeah. This is crawling. But as I said, this is like, this is Lay's baby. Literally, this is the opening of the floodgates and he was the very perfect person to do this because he had the industry experience. He's now been close to a decade working in the industry. He had the economics training.

21:09And he had the government experience. He knew that the deregulation was now at the right point. It had trickled out into industry enough. That this is possible. So he really was the perfect person to do this. So on the back of that in June of 1984. Lay remember, he's number two at Transco. He gets poached by another big Houston energy company. Houston natural gas to come over as the CEO. The number one. He's made it to the top. He's made his mark. He is The big shot at this point in Houston. Yeah. Yeah. They were a big publicly traded energy company in Houston. Probably I want to say like a billion billion and a half market cap call it public company. So definitely a great promotion for him a job to sort of move up in the ranks by joining this other company, but it's not like he's sort of on top of the world yet at this point. He's got bigger competitors that he is dealing with. He does for the moment.

22:07So then, the very next year, in 1985, he gets a call from the CEO of one of the larger competitors, a company called Internorth, which was not based in Houston, but rather based in Omaha, Nebraska. You know, a few companies based in Omaha, Nebraska. Small head office based in Omaha. Exactly. Small head office. Despite being based in Omaha, though, Internorth, at this point in time, no Berkshire Hathaway involvement, is the largest pipeline company in America. And they were relatively conservative kind of old school in many ways as we'll see sort of parochial Nebraska company despite having the largest pipeline in the country. And they were being pursued by the corporate raider. It's so funny how everything is coming together here in the acquired season. The famed 1980s corporate raider, Irwin Jacobs.

23:03But not that, Irwin Jacobs. I was going to say, I remember reading this and looking it up and being like, okay, good. It's not our Qualcomm Irwin. I first heard about this other bizarro Irwin Jacobs with doing the research for the Qualcomm episode because every time I type it into Google, I would occasionally get hits for some other famous business person that clearly was not like the hero Irwin Jacobs, but the anti-hero Irwin Jacobs. So 1980s corporate writer Irwin Jacobs is pursuing inter-north.

23:31and the CEO of Internorth wants to merge with HNG as almost like a kind of poison pill to like make the combined company too big for Jacobs or any other reader to pursue. So they negotiate a deal. Internorth ends up buying HNG for $2.3 billion, which was a 40% premium to the stock price, which is big. I mean, usually the floor of what a board will accept is something around 20%, but a 40% premium, they paid a pretty penny to go buy Kenlay's HNG here.

24:01It wasn't quite the case of minnow swallowing the whale, like they were closer in size than the cap city's ABC deal, but definitely, inter-north was the bigger company, but it was clear that lay and the HNG guys were going to be running the show from then on. Hmm. Yeah, I think that Bethany McLean sort of puts it in this way where it's almost like inter-north got hoodwinked where they...

24:25knew they were paying a lot, but they knew it was important to get. But then once they started looking at the deal with a couple of months of retrospect, they were like, wait a minute. We gave HNG a lot of board seats and their executives are having a lot of influence on the combined company and wait a minute. We just gave away the company. Yes. And specifically, this culture clash manifests in the question of where the headquarters.

24:52for this new company is going to be the old inter-north management team and board members. They of course want to keep the company in Omaha. And all the board members are sort of politically connected in Omaha. They're like, we don't want this company moving to the big city of Houston, taking all these jobs out of Omaha. It's important that the company stays here. And lay, of course, he's very political. He's very diplomatic. He's sort of willing to say the right things to appease the board, but he has no interest in moving to Omaha. Like, he's in the big city in Houston. He's a player in the industry. He's now a Texas oil man. He wants to stay in Houston. Yeah. And to be super clear here, inner North had a ridiculously valuable hard asset. This is now quoting from Bethany's book. Among its 20,000 miles of pipeline was a genuine prize, northern natural, the major north south line feeding gas from Texas into Iowa, Minnesota, and much of the rest of the Midwest. So

25:48This is sort of the first example of someone in Enronland getting the better part of an economic deal. Even though on the other side of the deal, there's a real hard asset that has quantifiable value for end users, for customers. Yeah. Eventually, as we'll see, they give up on even caring about that. Yes. So like we're saying this.

26:12Culture clash between the two companies manifests itself in the headquarters location. So what do they do? They do what any management company would do when you're trying to justify your decision to the board. They hire McKinsey and company. I mean, you can't make this stuff up. You totally can't make this side. This becomes completely freaking key to the story. Like no headquarters study, no end run. Because the desk on which this assignment lands is a young hot shot superstar junior partner at McKinsey in the Houston office one Jeffrey skilling who had joined McKinsey after Harvard Business School where he was a baker scholar, you know top five percent of the class. And famously, I think he had quite the reputation there. I think he was happy to broadcast this story. He got in because

27:08the Dean of Harvard Business School interviewed him on a trip to Houston. I think Skilling was working in Houston at the time he graduated from SMU, and the Dean interviewed him and asked him if he was smart and Skilling replied to the Dean, I'm effing smart. And he didn't say it in exactly those words. It's a family-friendly podcast, you know, we're not Jeff Skilling. Although we will actually say the words of some profanity that Skilling utters later because it is absolutely key to the story. Skilling.

27:38shows up in Omaha to present to the board his findings, which is that obviously the company should be in Houston. Even all the political wrangling aside, it makes sense that the largest pipeline company in the world at that point in time should be based in Houston, not in Omaha. And we should be clear here, there's this interesting thing going on at the time with natural gas, where it's sort of perceived as the good guy. And you're already starting to see this American I are toward the dirty big oil and coal and natural gas, which is of course a previously thought to be useless by product of extracting crude oil. You know, you can make gasoline out of it. You can make all this great stuff out of crude oil. And then there's this natural gas, which didn't have great use cases until lots of scientific discoveries and reasons why we all use it to eat our homes now or more. Many people used to eat their homes, but it was viewed as this sort of like.

28:33Next great frontier of pseudo clean energy, and so it was a place where a lot of people in the energy business wanted to be going. Yes. Oh, such a good point. I'm glad you paused here and we should discuss a little bit. Natural gas had lots of things going for it. One was sort of the environmental cleaner than oil, all that. Two was that certainly it was the first part of the energy industry to be deregulated enough that you could do interesting things with it.

29:02Three, I think probably the biggest tailwind in its favor in America was, you know, you said oil had started to develop this sort of dirty connotation. I think a lot of that was because of OPEC and the oil embargoes. Like, here's this foreign oil that America's dependent on. I mean, even to this day, like, you know, how much are politicians campaigning on, reduce our dependence on foreign oil blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, yeah, I'll go back to the 1970s. Yeah.

29:28Yeah, it's interesting how natural gas was the sort of electric power of its day in terms of perception. It was the Tesla of the 1980s. Not to mention there's all these just phenomenal other knock-on effects to it. You can pipeline it. You move it all over the place. You can store it really easily. So you can store lots of energy in a super dense way in case you don't need it in one place, but you do need it in another. It has these great sort of natural properties.

29:55that make it not only really useful for the end consumer, but as this deregulation is coming in, it makes it a great asset to use in your free market enterprise. All right, listeners. Now is a great time to tell you about a long time friend of the show, Vanta. AI has scrambled the whole security picture. It used to be that you proved that you were secure once a year on audit or a static PDF, then everyone would not and you're done. But in an AI first world, that doesn't hold up anymore.

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30:53And the way that they close that gap is Vanta agent. Think of it as a GRC engineer that's governance risk and compliance except that it's software and it doesn't sleep. It finds the issues drafts the fixes and cuts the time that you'd spend on vendor assessments in half. In half!

31:09which is exactly why more than 16,000 companies today run on Vanta companies like ramp cursor and snowflake all stay audit ready and catch the risks that crop up between audits across every vendor every AI tool the whole environment and that's the real value.

31:27Trust has to be continuous now, which is why Vanta automates your security, your compliance, and the work to earn and prove trust. We're huge fans of Vanta over here, and literally hundreds of acquired listeners have become Vanta customers at their companies over the years. So you can get $1,000 off Vanta at Vanta.com slash acquired. That's V-A-N-T-A dot com slash acquired for $1,000 off and just tell them that Ben and David sent you. OK, so back to this fateful HNG inner north board meeting in Omaha. And I think this is now 1986, 1985, 1986. Skilling the hot shot McKinsey consultant is sitting there in the waiting room, getting ready to go present to management and the board when the prior CEO, the number one member, Lay is number two after the merger, walks out and informs Skilling.

32:22That he's going to keep on going because he has just been fired by the board and lay has engineered the coup that lay is now the CEO of the company. So they're really a much time for the headquarters discussion in this board meeting and what time they do have the board is like no obviously we're keeping it in Omaha and you know lays the consignment politician he knows better than to press his luck like he just got what he wanted he's not going to fight with his new board at this board meeting to the very end.

32:50For Ken Lay, I don't think you ever said anything in a public or pseudo-public context that was confrontational or pissed anybody off. To the very bitter end. So the headquarters move does not happen at that meeting. It does happen shortly thereafter, but this is where skilling and lay meet for the first time.

33:11And Lay comes out in his very sort of politician manner after the board meeting is over. He apologizes to skilling for all the drama. He says, you know, look, I've read your work on the study. You really did an excellent, excellent job. Like, I would love to keep the relationship going with you and McKinsey. We're gonna have a lot of work to do at this combined company. I want you to be our McKinsey partner back in Houston, who's gonna lead a whole bunch of strategic initiatives for us. Yes. So it begins. And so it...

33:40begins. So Lays now settled in, he's in charge, he's the chairman, he's the CEO, and he decides that he wants to get a new name for this company, you know, HNG, Inter North, that, you know, it sounds too old and, you know, it's reeking of his predecessor. And it is true that all these energy companies have just the worst names. I mean, it's all these like...

34:02completely meaningless prefixes and suffixes like co and corp and inter and it's like an office space intertech they're all names something like that yes well maybe this is the beginning of the modern era of that because they go and they hire very expensive naming and branding consultants the logo would actually come a little later but including a few years later, Paul Rand would design the Enron logo. This would be the last logo that the legendary Paul Rand designed before he died. He, of course, designed the IBM logo, the next, next logo, the UPS logo, maybe. And he very much has his style. Like you think the IBM logo, or if you know the next logo, Steve Jobs is next, like at the Enron logo, like they're all kind of in the same style. ABC.

34:51Yale Press, Westinghouse. Oh, Westinghouse. Yeah. My grandfather worked for Westinghouse. Really? Yeah. Legendary. And Ron would be the last logo he designed before he died. Woof, what a legacy. So, the naming consultants separate from Paul. They come up with a brilliant new idea for the company. They want to name it Enteron. Almost, almost. Lay loves it. The board loves it. Lay loves it. Everybody's so excited. They announce The name. And the name comes from, it's a portmanteau, N-E-N for energy, T-E-R as a nod to internorth. Get that legacy back in there. And then on at the end, because it sounds cool and modern, enter on. So they announced it. They didn't check though in the dictionary because enter on is actually a medical term. It is a word. It is a medical term. It comes from a Greek word. And it means the intestinal

35:49digestive tract of a living creature and is particularly used for embryos. So like the digestive tract of embryos is an enteron. So they kind of get pilloried in the press for this. Lay so concerned about appearances and he goes nuts. Lay never loses his cool as we'll see throughout this story. Like he loses his cool here. It goes completely ballistic yelling at the naming consultants everybody.

36:19demands that they do another study, change it. And so they come back and they're like, well, what if we just get rid of the terror and we shorten it to Enron, which lay probably loves because he's like, yeah, you know, I hate those guys. Those are the old guys. Get rid of them. So he ends up getting exactly what he wants. Hey, quarters moves to Houston. He's the CEO and chairman. Enron, future looking, you know, it's his baby is a refounding, you know, new story, new era for the energy industry. Yep.

36:47So that's sort of the end of chapter one. You get this merger, they're real pipeline companies, they've got hard assets, they have sort of a new corporate culture with a new leader and they're delivering real value to customers. Yup and they're running the proto-trading playbook that lay pioneered back in his early days and pretty quickly after this, they actually face their first trading scandal. Did you read about this? I did.

37:15It's such a predecessor, like it's such an obvious personality flaw of Ken Lay's to look the other way and it's like amazing that it happened what ten years before the big scandal. So two traders at the new and Ron, who are actually based in New York, they start embezzling money from the company. They're filing fake trades, they're filing fake tax returns, they're creating false bank accounts. They have a false bank account famously, I think in the name of a Mr.

37:44M. Yes, which clearly this will give you a window into the softmoric nature of traders and trading cultures. Just write that out and figure it out for yourself. So the company picks up on this. It comes to lays attention and everybody recommends the company's auditors at Arthur Anderson recommended the board. The premiere accounting firm of the day. Premiere big five accounting firm at the time. They recommend that lay in the company should fire these guys.

38:12Obviously, they're stealing from the company, they're falsifying trades and lays like, well, you know, these guys, it's really bad. It's bad what they did. We should censor them for sure. You know, we should set up some controls. Make sure this doesn't happen again, but they're really good traders. You know, they've really made a lot of money for the firm. I don't think we should fire them. You know, that feels like a big step. Everybody's like, okay.

38:39They were funneling money to their own bank accounts. Yeah. But Lee lets it slide. And he is immediately rewarded for his faith in them and his decision here. Almost immediately, they do what any sophomore people in a situation like that would do who just got away with one. They go way risk on. So they go on tilt and they rack up within the next few months.

39:07Almost a billion dollars one B that's a B a billion dollars This is in the late eighties of trading losses. Oh, it's that would be enough to bring down the whole firm At the get go when you got to think the enterprise value of the combined company I don't have it in front of me, but you had a I don't know five ish billion dollar company by a two and a half ish billion dollar company And so you know whole enterprise value the firm can't be more than ten billion dollars And these two bozos just racked up a billion dollars in trading losses. This time, Leigh does fire them. And fortunately for young and Ron and for Leigh, but unfortunately for the rest of the world, this happens early enough in the quarter that the trading floor is able to dig out enough of these losses that they don't have to report the whole billion dollar loss come earnings time and only end up reporting, I think less than a hundred million dollars of losses.

40:01The company miraculously survives, so you would think that Laywood learned his lesson here, but no, this is Kenneth Layward dealing with. And let's for a moment say, why are there traders? That's sort of an interesting thing that's happening here. I thought this was a pipeline company. I thought this was a logistics company that moved natural gas from one place to another and charge customers for the services associated with that. Well, the traders originally are there to your point to Sort of help match supply to demand. You know, it's not like everybody just got a computer in front of them where they can automatically be buying the right products to fit their needs at the right price at this moment in time. You sort of need to interface with people and those people can quote spreads wherever they want. They can say, I got a seller for this price and you're the buyer and I'm sort of sensing that you'll buy for that price. Okay, I'll match make supply to demand. I'll quote a spread where I think I can make the most possible money on this trade.

40:56and we'll go with that. And so this is the beginning of them being both a logistics energy transportation company and also a financial organization of sorts, a trading desk. Yes, a trading desk, a proto-financial institution for the energy industry. So speaking of, back to Houston and the promised McKinsey strategic engagement, it's happening. Jeff's killing is lead hotshot partner to develop a strategic plan for this very thing, the new finance and trading operations of Enron. And one day, Skelling has an absolutely brilliant idea, brilliant by his own estimation, and he proclaims it to everybody how brilliant it is. What if Enron goes one step further from...

41:51lays kind of original innovation of creating a spot market for energy. And rather than just being sort of the facilitator of the market, being the pipeline in the middle, what if Enron started acting even more like an investment bank in this industry? And the phrase that he uses for this idea is Enron becoming a quote, bank for gas. And the idea is that they can go to oil and gas producers to drillers, and they can buy up a lot of the future production that's going to come out of their wells, kind of almost like the old companies used to do. But rather than Enron, then being the customer for what's going to come out of those wells, they repackage everything here. This is the securitization that you were talking about a minute ago, Ben. They repackage all of these future energy commodities. They slice it and dice it, and then they resell it.

42:49two buyers to consumers of energy on kind of whatever timeline and term length they wanted. So we've gone now the industry from the pipelines by the assets from the producers by the energy commodities from the producers and then sell them to customers. Lays innovation is like create a market where you let the producers and the customers trade directly today in real time spot markets.

43:12Where everyone is subject to, I don't know what tomorrow's price is going to be. I'll quote it to you tomorrow. So you you have inherent risk that tomorrow's price could be higher. So sorry, but that is what it is. Yep. So skillings innovation here is let's turn this into a full-fledged kind of financial derivatives market and let buyers and sellers write contracts and buy contracts for Any amount of this commodity in the future at a set price. So true futures contracts. And the most sort of early legitimate use case for this is imagine you are a local utility who's trying to provide natural gas to your town.

43:52And you know, you've been using this great spot market that Enron stood up to figure out, you know, what's the price going to be tomorrow? You're pretty worried about its skyrocketing in the event of some unknown Black Swan event or something like that. So wouldn't it be nice if you could hedge your exposure to that risk by also negotiating a futures contract, where you say, well, let me lock in a certain rate. And yeah, I know it's going to be more expensive than it is now, but at least nothing bad can happen. And then I can sort of be predictable in the way that I'm thinking about what my spends going to be over the next three months. So that's like a super legitimate use case of one of these futures contracts that they could trade using Enron. You can imagine all sorts of utility here. Yep. So Enron does it.

44:34They pioneer this market that would come to be known. And I think it assumes still a very, very large part of the energy market today called energy derivatives. And skilling an Enron, invent it and pioneer it. And at this point, the energy is the underlying asset. The derivative itself is not particularly interesting other than its own utility for if you are actually buying or selling the underlying asset. That's like an important thing to note.

45:03Everyone will lose their heads later and get excited about the derivative on its own. They don't care what it's a derivative of. It's a tradable thing that numbers go up numbers go down. It reminds me a lot of some of crypto over the last year. It's like trading dogecoin. Right. Does anybody even know what this coin is or is supposed to do? Does anybody care? No, but I can speculate on it. And so there is a very interesting almost innocent early beginning of why you would offer energy derivatives that completely falls apart over time as everyone loses their head. And skilling is still outside when he pitches this idea. He's still in McKinsey at this point. Yes, for the moment. And so in this next thing, they realize this is a new concept they need to bring to the market. How are they going to bootstrap up this new derivatives market? Well, they kind of need the producers to get on board. They need to get the supply, the raw supply that they can then

46:00financialized, secure ties turn into these derivatives. And the way that they can really convince producers to want to do this is if they fund them. So, just like an investment bank, they now start going out and doing these development deals and co-development deals with drillers saying, hey, we'll fund you. We will finance your exploration, your drilling. And as part of financing that Enron is going to lock up the rights to then secure ties, the future production out of your assets, which again, on its own, not a malicious strategy. Think about our Qualcomm episode. Hey, Sony, will you spin up a new venture that will co-invest in to make flip phones that use CDMA so we can prove to everyone else in the market that CDMA is viable technology? We'll invest in it. You just have to provide these strategic assets. You can own half of it blah, blah, blah. It is a common way to bootstrap an ecosystem to use your dollars to incentivize other participants to

46:57bring a thing into your ecosystem. And, you know, honestly, like if the story were to stop there, this probably would be a great company. Bringing huge innovation to a commodity market. Yeah, probably this market should work this way. It should be financialized and securitized. Energy assets are commodities. Yep. Unfortunately, that is not where the story ends. Far, far, far from it. So, 1990, now we're a couple of years into the lay and run era and lay and the vice chairman.

47:27of the company, guy named Rich Kinder, who later would leave and run before all the dirt hits the fan and start Kinder Morgan. You can think of Rich Kinder for now as the hard assets guy. He's the guy that really understands the intrinsic value of delivering hydrocarbons through a pipe to customers and trying to build a company that is just executing really well on doing that. Yes. So the two of them, they...

47:53work on convincing skilling. They think this is a big idea and this is the future of Enron. They work on convincing skilling to leave McKinsey and come over and join Enron as the full-time CEO of this new gas bank that they're going to call the Enron Finance Division. And a very telling move tells you a lot about what you need to know about Jeff's skilling as a person. They're talking about this. They're negotiating. He decides he wants to take them up on the offer. He's going to leave McKinsey. He calls them up.

48:22To do the final negotiations of the terms of his offer, he calls them up from the hospital where he is with his wife while his wife is in labor with their, I think, second child. That tells you where his priorities lie. Obviously, that marriage does not last too much longer. I love that he's obviously there. Yeah, obviously. Obviously. So skilling comes in, he takes over and run finance, starts this new division.

48:51It is worth pointing out the thing that he made a necessary condition in order for him to join and do this. Do you know what that thing is? Ooh, I don't. It was that Jeff's killing insisted that in order to join Enron and start this new division, Kenlay and the board had to agree to use Mark to market accounting. I did not realize that's killing was looking that far ahead and made it a condition of his joining. This shows how unbelievably savvy.

49:20He is, he's sort of realized he couldn't build the business. Well, he is effing smart, according to him. Yeah. He could not build the business that he wanted to without doing this. He literally called it and this is in the smartest guys in the room, a lay my body across the tracks issue about joining the company. I wonder if he talked about it from the delivery room. Awful. All right. So what is Marked Market Accounting? It's worth, because we'll get into this a bunch, but let's understand it conceptually. Yeah.

49:47It ends up taking a while for Enron to be able to implement this that we'll get into, but go for it. Normally, if you're in the business of delivering gas to customers who will pay for it, you account for the cost that it takes to physically move the gas when you deliver it at the time you're delivering it and the cash that your customers pay you, that's your revenue, and you recognize that when they pay you. But imagine you're in a different business like trading stocks.

50:13You probably should be accounting for the market value of everything you buy and sell, whether or not you have actually sold it. Like, if you bought Tesla at $20 a share, and it's now worth $200 a share, you should reflect that you have a gain, albeit an unrealized one. This is marked to market accounting. And famously, all VCs do this, right? Talk about marks, you know, of your portfolio. Right.

50:37company raised an up-round from a third party who's setting a new price that is what the market is saying this asset is worth and you get to account for that value even though you haven't actually received the cash you know just because you've been sold your Tesla shares it doesn't mean that you don't have an unrealized gain or just because the VC hasn't realized the liquidity event from that company it doesn't mean that the company is not worth more so skilling obviously really wanted this mark to market treatment and Well, you can imagine that it's probably easy to abuse Mark to market accounting rules. It is probably okay if you can avoid the temptation, but it is worth pointing out that Enron, when they did adopt this, became the very first non-financial company to use this method. Yeah. Well, oh boy. We're going to talk quite a bit more about Mark to market accounting in a minute, but let's just say the potential for a litany of abuses. Hi. Very.

51:34Very high, especially for what is an operating company, not actually a financial firm. Yeah. Mark to market accounting, to me, is the epitome of with great power comes great responsibility because it really does open up this question of like, okay, well, what is the market price? And how do you discover the true market price of something? When someone's not paying you for it and giving you the cash, doesn't it seem a little squishy?

51:59to say what the thing is actually worth. Oh, put a pin in that. We're going to, we're going to come back to that. So, um, skilling, I guess, after this lay his body on the tracks moment in the delivery room at the hospital, he comes in, he joins Enron, running the new Enron Finance Division where he's CEO of the division. He gets a big equity stake in the company tied to the performance of his division. Think a lot as we go through this story about incentives and the behavior that they drive. So he models this division.

52:29Just like an investment bank. He starts building out big trading floors in the end round office in Houston. He wants to have this be just like Wall Street, you know, here in Houston, brings on trader type folks. Most famously, he's a side character here, mostly because nobody could ever actually figure out.

52:50from the outside, but this guy actually did at Enron, but this guy named Lou Pie, who already was at Enron, but this guy. I can't even hear his name without. Oh my god. Oh my god. Like if you've watched the movie of the smartest guys in the room, it's a really good movie. The movie version of the book. It's so mid-2000s, like they use all this weird B-roll footage. So Lou, like I said, nobody can ever actually figure out from the outside what he does at Enron. But One thing that he becomes really known for is his love of strippers. And not just conceptually, he would eventually leave his wife and marry a stripper. Yes. In the movie, I think they literally say he was obsessed with strippers. He'd like bring them to the office. He'd leave for hours at a time. He went every single day after work. Go to the strip club. He knew like all the strip clubs around Houston. So during the movie, they're showing all this b-roll footage like this is a documentary about an accounting fraud.

53:44And all of a sudden, out of nowhere, there's all this b-roll footage of strip clubs. Don't watch this movie with your kids. Yeah, and like super explicit b-roll footage of strip clubs. You're like, whoa, where did that come from? It was super explicit. And it's not like this was actually footage of Lou in the strip club. It's b-roll footage of strip clubs. Lupai, I think the thing that he did just to like clarify a little bit is he basically heard it, the traders.

54:12Think about traders in the 80s. They hired these people who one of the quotes is, if I was on my way to the bathroom and someone said that I could double my pay by stepping on someone's throat, I would absolutely step on his throat. That's the type of people that they're hiring to make money both for Enron and for themselves. And Lupai is sort of the cowboy who's sort of like hurting them all. So, Liu, the other reason we bring him up.

54:39I guess because of his obsession with strippers, you know, Ben, he said he leaves his wife that he's been with for 20 years. He runs off with a stripper because of that. He gets divorced from his wife. He ends up leaving Enron well before the fall and he sells his stock to finance the divorce for a quarter billion dollars. He makes $250 million. He sold his stock at the top. I don't think with any notion of what was about to happen. No, he had to finance the divorce. Crazy.

55:06So he ends up becoming the second largest landholder in Colorado. He's still like a multi-hundred millionaire to this day. Crazy. Other than a few people who go on to build real value after this by creating real businesses, he's the one who economically benefited the most of any of the Enron people. Unbelievable. And he stayed out of jail. So the big hire that's killing makes, as he's setting up this division, is one Andrew Fastow.

55:33A former banker from Continental Illinois Bank, where he worked in Chicago and he was part of the structured financing division at Continental Illinois. Continental Illinois had the inglorious honor of becoming the largest bank failure in history until Washington Mutual during the financial crisis. This is the sort of cloth that fast now is cut from when skilling is recruiting him to come in and run structured finance at Enron. He talks with them, he hears about his experience, and he's like, You sir are the man for the job. And you look at Andy fast down, you hear him talk, and you kind of want to trust him. He's the picture of a polished...

56:14thoughtful finance executive who's thought this through, who has all the eyes dotted and the T's crossed. He's good looking, like he's the picture of the successful 80s confident businessman, but with no slime on him. When you hear skilling talk, you're like, I'm not sure this guy has my best interest at heart. The thing with fast hours, you actually do think he is your best interest at heart. He's like the Americans like, okay, he's like a banker. Yes. He is a banker, except he just comes from...

56:41the bank that was the largest bank failure in history. So he comes in and skilling sets him to work, doing structured financing. The primary thing that they're doing is they're packaging up these financing deals that Enron had started doing for the producers, for the drillers. Remember, they're trying to kickstart the market, bootstrap supply for the derivatives market. So they're doing all these financings for drillers out there for oil producers. They don't really want those assets.

57:10on the N-ron books. And so they devise this scheme that they become acquainted with through Arthur Anderson, through the Accountants and Auditors, of using special purpose entities to package up these investments that they're making in producers and get them off of the N-ron books. And it turns out they learn through doing this that at the time, If you set up a separate legal entity from the company, a special purpose entity, this is different than a special purpose vehicle that people use for investing in startups today. This is a special purpose entity. If you set this up as long as at least 3% 3123% of the capital in that entity comes from outside investors. You can still have the company itself

57:59Oh, 97% of the economics of that entity, and you can remove it from your consolidated accounting books. You can just wipe it out of your accounting, say, this is now owned and controlled by an independent third-party entity, and the test for it being independent is that 3%, a minimum of 3% of the capital comes from outside sources.

58:29We live in a system that enabled this fraud. I want to keep reiterating that over and over and over again until Sarbanes Oxley passed in 2002 because of this scandal and some other scandals, but largely because of Enron, we just existed in a system where all of this was exploitable and just waiting for someone who did not have the scruples to just finally come in and exploit all these loopholes.

58:58Totally. There were no lids on the cookie jars. There were no lids. No lids. And you might ask, this doesn't seem like that big a deal. Imagine these things are like hugely lost making, but you're trying to go tell equity investors, people who own the NRON stock, how great your company is. It would be great if all their losses weren't showing up in your financial statements. NRON doesn't care about the quality of the assets or projects that it's investing in with these producers. It just wants to lock up the contracts for what someone would project the future oil and gas that's going to come out of these wells. Enron doesn't actually care if they're well-run or they're going to make money or the valuations makes sense. They just want to lock up the deals. So, they do a lot of really bad deals. Yep, massive insight of misalignment. And you said we weren't going to get into market accounting yet, but I have to introduce, okay, so I'm Enron. I make a crap investment in your oil production project. And I say, I want

59:55you to exclusively trade the financial derivatives around all the natural gas flowing out of your production facility through Enron and you say, okay, and I say, how much do you think is gonna eventually flow out of that? And you tell me a number and I say, well, if I take the most aggressive possible circumstance for what the price of that could be over time and the amount of volume that that could produce over time and I take the most aggressive possible stance.

1:00:25on the amount of interesting financial instruments that I could make out of that. I think you and I can agree that this deal that we're signing is a ludicrously valuable deal for me and Ron. The right to generate all this revenue from trading the assets that come out of your production facility. Let's write this down. Let's paper this. The discounted future cash flows of all of the money that I'm going to make from your production facility That's really big. What you're telling me, these numbers that you put on paper that maybe I encouraged you to make them higher. Right, that's really great. I don't care about my equity investment in your thing. Like, we're gonna put that off into a special purpose entity. We're never gonna talk about it again. I don't really care if that goes zero. But, hey, I use Mark to mark an accounting. So because I just signed this deal where all of the future cash flows of this thing are looking really good, I'm gonna recognize that is revenue today. And I know I'm not gonna need a cash today, but my income statement,

1:01:20Yup, you better bet that I am generating a ton of income from this deal that we just signed. Okay, so there's a bunch of both story and explanation we got to talk about here. So we've talked a bunch about market market accounting. Despite skilling, apparently laying himself on the tracks about this being non-negotiable about coming in, it wasn't like Enron could just say and skilling could just say, oh, we're doing market market accounting. They did make the case to Arthur Anderson to the auditors that Anderson could get comfortable with them doing this. Anderson says like, I don't know. This is really out there, like very borderline that you guys could use Mark Tom market accounting as an operating oil and gas company. I don't know that we feel comfortable with this unless the SEC signs off on it. And so, skilling is like, great. Let's take this to the SEC. So, Anderson takes it to the SEC. The SEC rejects it. They come back to skilling and they're like, as expected, the SEC is like, this is crazy. You can't do this.

1:02:19skillings like, I wanna go talk to the SEC. And he's a ludicrously compelling character. There is an intellectual purity about him where he can create an argument that sounds really, really compelling. This has worked for him many times in his life, so he's like, sure, I'll just go explain to the SEC, they'll get it. And he spends this story that amazingly, the SEC somehow becomes convinced that this is a good idea and they sign off on it.

1:02:46I think this is really an interesting point in the story. This is the only instance where you have someone who is complicit in allowing Enron to run the playbook that they did who doesn't have a conflict of interest. Anderson Tax was getting paid tons of fees. The lawyers who signed off on lots of stuff over the years were getting paid tons of fees. All the employees had all this stock. They were incentivized for it to go up.

1:03:11Yeah, this is the one really puzzling one. This is one where like, the person whose job it is at the SEC to approve this or not approve it, they don't have a vested interest. Here's probably also a good point to bring up the Arthur Anderson conflict. It's not just that Enron is a big audit client for them. At this point in time, pre-Sarveins actually improved the fall of Arthur Anderson. All the accounting firms had attached consulting arms.

1:03:37under the same roof. So Anderson had Anderson consulting which would go on to become Accenture after the demise of Anderson. This is nuts. I don't think I'd really grasp this. The conflict here is immense. This whole thing took down Arthur Anderson and what they did for the consulting arm was they rebranded at Accenture and spun it out into its own thing. And at this point in time, all the senior partners at the farm like it's one and the same. They're all making money from these engagements.

1:04:05Enron became Anderson's biggest client in the world. They were making $50 million a year from Enron, half of which was audit and tax fees and half of which was consulting fees. At any point in time, Enron could just maybe be hard for them to switch their auditors, but they could switch their consultants at the drop of a hat. There were huge incentives for Anderson to let them get away with what they wanted to keep the client happy. It was their biggest client in the world. There were no lids in the cookie jars.

1:04:35Okay, so miraculously for the evil guys at Enron, this gets through the SEC. Now, we've explained a little bit thus far about how good market market accounting can be for Enron. It's so much better than that. Better. Better for running a pump in them. This is where the whole thing comes together in just like an unbelievable way. The parallels to crypto, they're crazy. Once they implement market market accounting.

1:05:00Ben, you explained a little bit the deals there a minute ago. You do a deal with a producer and you say, hey, whether or not you're going to be able to execute on these plans. Let's pump up these projections, make them look as big as possible. And then I and Ron will recognize as revenue today, my projected cash flows based on this Excel spreadsheet for the next 20 years. The SEC allowed them to go out to 20 years that they could collapse into today revenue. So 20 years of future cash flows I mean, they recognize that as a revenue today with like no expenses associated with it. Here's why you could argue it's sort of fair because there's at least 20 years of future cash flows baked into the stock price of any asset. So, you know, if I'm buying a stock and holding it on my books in the enterprise value of that stock, I am accounting for 20 plus years in the future of the cash flows that come out of it then. And, you know, one

1:05:57Other, you know, maybe sliver of a justification. In our world, talking about this sounds utterly insane. Like, you know, you're talking about like startups, new projects. Who knows if these things are going to work, tech startups or whatnot. This is a different world in oil and gas. You can be pretty sure if you have a site, a geologic site that you've done enough exploration on the site, you've decided you're going to build a well. You can be pretty sure you're going to get assets out of that site.

1:06:24Yep. Exactly how much and on what schedule you don't know, but like you're going to get useful commodity stuff and there's going to be a market for that commodity. You will make money out of this site. How much money that is up for debate and what the price of the commodities will be over the 20 years. That's also fluctuates. That's up for debate. But it's not like you're not going to get anything out of this. Yep. Okay. So that's part one of why market market accounting is just this bananza for Enron.

1:06:53But it's double that. Remember these special purpose entities that's killing and fast hour now setting up and They're offloading. They're selling quote-unquote selling these assets that Enron doesn't really want on his books. They're selling off to the special purpose entities because those are also transactions Enron now gets to book those essentially phony sales as revenue So they're double-dipping. They do a deal with a developer. They recognize as revenue 20 years of forecasted cash flows out of that asset. Oh, just from their equity value in the project. Then a week later, they turn around and they sell that project, their equity in that project, to a phony special purpose entity for some astronomical price. And then they recognize that value from the transaction as revenue, even though they own 90% of the entity that they just sold it to.

1:07:51Crazy. And all the while, no cash has actually changed hands. Totally. This is like the ultimate Ponzi scheme. It's wild. It's totally wild. So all of that is bad enough. Let's make it even worse. If you are trying to create as beautiful and amazing a income statement as possible, obviously, Mark Timarket accounting is great for all the reasons we just discussed. And investors will love it. You can inflate your revenues hugely, et cetera, et cetera. There's one problem.

1:08:19And that problem is that it's all one time. This is the opposite of ARR. There is no recurring revenue here. You're taking all the future income revenue cash flow. You're collapsing it to a single moment in time. So whatever deals you do in one year, you're starting from zero the next year. You get no future benefit on your income statement from those deals. You're squeezing every amount of possible upside out of the future and into today. And so you're just constantly making it harder on yourself.

1:08:49to achieve anything in the future because you've already recognized it all. And basically, if you don't do more different deals next year, it doesn't matter how good every contract you've already signed is and how amazing all those projects are doing, you have an actual zero in your revenue category without doing more deals. Totally. And so like any house of cards here, this all looks great, but there's literally no way.

1:09:15that this doesn't all blow up. It's all just completely inflated. Once they start down this path, there's no scenario where this ends well. It's just a question of how long the fuse is until the bomb blows up. Yeah, you're borrowing on the future in such a big way. Well, and because there's no underlying reality at a certain point, like the deals, quote unquote, that they're doing on the front end are not good deals, because everybody's incentivized to pump the numbers. The producers are incentivized to pump the numbers to get more money.

1:09:44and runs incentivize to pump the numbers to book more revenue even though they're paying for the deals. And then the bigger the deal price, the bigger the dollar value that they offload it for to the special purpose entities that they book the revenue again. Yep. And the most devilishly difficult thing about all this is once the train gets set in motion and you start putting up these numbers and you start reporting them in your financial statements, You massively catch the attention of investors and you then have to keep it going because people start to invest. Your stock starts to go up because no one's seen an income statement like this. This is crazy. This is the future. There's lots of reasons to believe that it's going to be nuts. And you start believing the numbers. You start committing other people to believe the numbers and then you got to move mountains every quarter to make the numbers keep going up. So this whole

1:10:39devilish flywheel really gets put in place by 1996 like it's really humming and they would have a five-year run from 1996 to 2001 during which revenues grew 7.5x during those five years they went from 13.3 billion in 1996 to over a hundred billion in the year 2000 and Every year during that period from 96 through 2001 the company would go bankrupt at the end of 2001, which were the six years that they were fortunes most innovative company. Yes, Fortune magazine remember this is gonna come back up with the particular publication names them America's most innovative company and in the year 2000 also names them America's best managed company So back to the mid 90s

1:11:31on the back of all of these huge wins, this transformation of the company. Skilling gets promoted from just being head of the Enron Finance Division to president and COO of the entire company. Number two, behind Lay, who's still the chairman and CEO. But he basically just takes on a kind of elder statesman role. He's out there smoothing politicos. He becomes super close with the Bush family, super, super close. And fast now, he gets...

1:11:59quite the meteoric rise out of this. He goes from being like a jack of all trades, kind of like mid-level executive in the finance division to the CFO of the entire company. And structured finance kind of becomes its own division. They start relying on it as a profit center, not just like a CFO to manage the finances of the business, but they're like, can you come up with new financial products to generate revenue on your own? So when skilling gets elevated to number two and fast out to see if other company they start articulating as the company strategy that the finance department is going to go from being this shared resource cost center to a profit generating division of the company the fact that this didn't raise massive alarm bells throughout the entire investor community is just crazy well the thing I want to continue to harp on is it would have if the incentives weren't so dramatically misaligned

1:12:57Everyone benefited from this thing going up. Like the ratings agencies benefited from this thing going up. Everybody who ever bought Enron stock saw it going up. So they wanted to continue to see it going up. These deals, you know, the Enron's flying around doing deals. You know who they need for deals? Investment bankers. And you know what investment bankers also have? Analysts. And you know what those analysts are going to say? Buy. It is just like the whole world was making so much money at least on paper.

1:13:27from this happening that why would you ever want it to stop happening? And like we've been saying, they need to keep doing bigger and bigger deals. So what does NRAN do? They start heavily investing in their international division. They've like saturated the US with all the producers in the US. They're like, we can go out to other countries, both developed and developing countries.

1:13:52And especially in developing countries, we can do these massive, massive production deals that just like fuel all of this. So they go to famously India, Brazil, Argentina, and they finance these like multi billion dollar energy projects. India is the worst of them.

1:14:13power plant that they financed as an LNG, liquefied natural gas power plant on the coast of India, that they financed, put multi-billion dollars. India doesn't have the technology, the grid, the demand, any way to actually use this. The project just becomes this smoking crater on the Indian coastline. I think it's still never opened. The half-completed building is still just sitting there. At various points in time, I think they have technically turned it on, but not like actually, like, yeah, it's still just sitting there.

1:14:42but Enron books, billions of dollars of revenue and then they all float the assets, everything we've talked about. It's just this metastasizing cancer on the world. Yeah. The one thing that is credible about what they're claiming is the key thing to develop a society is widely available energy. So there is this notion of like, okay, if the way to accelerate a country that is becoming, I don't know if developed country is the correct parlance anymore, but an economy that has high employment, high quality of life, a good mix between information work and physical work, making real things in the real world, growing GDP rapidly, becoming a player on the world stage, whatever you want to call it, every single thing requires...

1:15:29massive amounts of energy as a precondition. One major reason why the US got to be such an incredible superpower is we burned tons of fossil fuels over the last 80 years in order to accomplish all the things that we have today and achieve the quality of life that most people in the US have today. So there is a real Well-founded argument to be made that it is both good for these countries to come and do this and they'll need it anyway So there's a huge market opportunity that we're sort of pulling forward to now by creating a ton of energy capacity there. Oh, you can really see how the insidious political tendrils of this company politically

1:16:09This looks fantastic. Enron is financing the energy development of India, Brazil, Argentina, like, you know, blah, blah, blah. And the politicians love this. Here's this, you know, innovative American company. Oh, man. So as this gets bigger and bigger and bigger, remember the key on the back end to making this work of these special purpose entities. Now, you only need to come up with 3% outside capital.

1:16:38But Enron starts doing so many deals that are so big and they're offloading so many assets. It actually becomes kind of a problem finding enough suckers to pony up even 3% of the capital needed to be offloading these assets. And by the way, we should say, how does Enron have the capital? Because they're not generating a lot of cash flow. It's worth knowing that on their earnings calls, They are releasing a profit and loss statement and then like a little few weeks later coming out with a balance sheet and a cash flow statement. So you say, well, how are they financing 97% of these projects? Well, first of all, a lot of times they're doing co-development deals. So they're like getting a government to pony up a bunch of cash and then Ron ponies up a bunch of their sort of like development resources and people, which by the way, they're terrible at because actually what they've become good at is the financial derivatives trading firm and not

1:17:30actually having the human power to go and execute on building these really complex projects, but they are getting cash from somewhere where they get it from investors, the American public. So as their stock starts to run, they do more and more issuances of new stock at these new stratospheric prices to bring cash in the door since the operations are not actually producing a lot of real cash. So the flywheel sort of looks like pump the stock, issue more equity take the cash from that new public fundraise that you've just done and shake in the American public the tree of the American public take that cash and use that as the sort of 97% that you need to stuff into a special purpose entity to go and finance a project. It's actually not that it's use that cash to finance these crappy development deals they're doing all over the world on the back end.

1:18:25There's actually no cash because Enron is the buyer and the seller. They're just taking it off the books. They're not actually buying anything. There's no cash changing hands. And so you really start to wonder, like, I don't think this was the plan the whole time. I think it was the fact that once you started needing to show growth and you've already pulled forward all the revenue out of next year and the last year, then you got to do something and you have to get infinitely creative in your way to show income on the income statement. And so you start spinning up all these divisions to do crazy stuff. So like we're saying, that dynamic gets the point where it's so big. They can't find enough suckers to even do 3% of the equity and capital in these crappy deals. Again, in runs on both sides of even though the special percentage is independent quote-unquote. So fast out in skilling. Come up with yet another brilliant idea.

1:19:19Rather than going and doing road shows signing up in other entities to do this, what if they had their own fund? A captive fund, part of the Enron family, but was separate, was independent, they could put up this 3% of the equity needed for every deal. God, we could call this episode arms length, but not really. So they go to Anderson and they're like, well, what if we do this? And what if Andy, what if...

1:19:47Fast Al, sets up this fund and is the general partner in it. And we only use it for, you know, stuff that helps Enron. And like, yes, he's the CFO of Enron. He'll also be the general partner of this fund, you know, that's gonna do deals with Enron, but it's all in deals that are gonna be good for Enron. And Anderson's like, uh, that seems really bad. You should probably go to the board and get signed off on this very, very obvious conflict of interest. Yeah.

1:20:14So they do take this to the board and they present it fast out presents it to the board as like I'm willing to fall in the sword to do this for you guys I'm taken one for the team guys never mind the fact that like he has full private equity economics on this deal I don't know if it's two and 20 or whatever it is But there's management fees there's carry like he is the general partner of a private equity fund That is only getting good deals because you know that he's gonna screw and run to get the private equity fund to get great terms on these deals. So he's pitching the board. He's pitching the board. The board is like, great. Thanks for taking one for the team, Andy. This is going to be great for Enron. Really appreciate your hard work. You know, basically a bunch of out of boys and slaps on the back. So yeah, as you mentioned, this is a private equity fund that he gets to present management fees, 20% of the profits. You know, ends up across a series of funds being hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars that he's managing.

1:21:12I think fund one was small-ish, but fund two is 200 million. Yeah, we'll get into what it is, uh, exactly in a minute here. The management fees of a fund in theory are supposed to support the cost of running the fund, you know, like headcount salaries, rent office space, all the resources you need. He's the CFO of Enron. Everybody who works on the fund is an Enron employee. Enron is paying the salaries of everybody. The office is Enron.

1:21:41There's no headcount. There's no funds. You know, all the Bloomberg terminals, all the legal, all the accounting. He's pulling someone off their day job every time they needed to negotiate a deal between his fund and Enron and saying, okay, you wear the Enron hat on this time and negotiate against me and all where the private equity hat. And they're calling that arms length. So all the management fees. There's no expenses. They're just straight flowing to him. The real kicker. You were joking about this before the episode.

1:22:08And that should have told everybody where his real incentive lies, he decides to name the suite of funds. LJM Capital. What is LJM stand for? It stands for Leah, Jeffrey, and Matthew, which are the names of his wife and kids. So there's no question. Who is benefiting from what is going on here? And it's not in run.

1:22:29unbelievable, and there's the squirreliest, most circuitous route to trying to find disclosures on this. Whenever it's convenient to say so, there are claims that the board was fully on board with this. Whenever you're looking for the smoking gun, it's really difficult to find anyone's signatures or discussion of this in the board minutes. It's especially difficult to find just skilling signature on anything.

1:22:51even though the whole agreement was skilling will sign off as the final approver on I think deals, but definitely fastos compensation from this. There are documents that surface that have a variety of signatures on them, but not skillings. He very intentionally was like, I'm not actually going to sign off on this, but it's kind of good for Enron that it happens. So I'm going to let it keep happening. Well, it is good because these funds, this vehicle, you know, everything that fastos now running.

1:23:20can put up the 3% capital for this, special purpose entity. So they don't need to involve any outside people in all of this. Not to mention, all the people investing capital are these big banks. And so it further entrenches major financial institutions, Maryland, JP Morgan, all these big people that Enron wants to continue to have incentivize further success further in owning assets that are associated with Enron. Yes.

1:23:48Everybody in Enron is so hyped up about this that in 1999, FAST-O starts a campaign within Enron with play and skilling and the PR people in Enron to get himself nominated for the CFO of the year in the CFO magazine annual rankings of CFO. He ends up not winning but he does get a special award from CFO Magazine for CFO Excellence in the Category of Capital Structure Management.

1:24:15So they do over a few years tons, tons of these deals. And two things are always true about the deals. One, fast out is finding a way for fast out to benefit and get rich, you know, LJM. We know who number one is here. Two, and Ron also benefits because it's now just turbocharging this whole flywheel and getting the bad stuff off the balance sheets and booking revenues associated with these deals. Eventually.

1:24:40And Ron also makes fast out the head of Corp. Def. So he is now the head on all sides of the transactions. He's the CFO. He is the head of corporate development, who would be the person charged with negotiating the and Ron side of the table against the outside investors, the LJM, but he runs everything. It's so, so wild. At the time that they do end up actually disclosing this, which I don't want to flash too far forward. It's worth showing this detail. They do sort of disclose it. They say, oh, there exists an entity that's managed by a member of the management team that does deals with Thanron. It's like one sentence. And then when the shit really hits the fan, they say, oh, well, a previously disclosed entity did deals this quarter, but that's been previously disclosed. There ends up being like,

1:25:34a billion dollar loss, or some crazy, don't quote me on that, but some massive, massive loss. And they're like, oh, we disclosed this whole thing before. And it all ties back to this one sentence where they're just saying, a member of the management team has a related entity that does transactions with Enron. So this is where everything starts to unravel. Investors in the media start asking around about this. Like by this point in time, we're now in early 2001. Yeah.

1:26:01Lay has now stepped back to just be chairman. Skilling has been promoted to be CEO of the whole company. Fast out still, CFO, plus head of CorpDev, plus running these LJM funds, unrelated funds. People are starting to ask around about what's going on at Enron, and people assume when this disclosure comes out that it's Skilling who's running these funds. They're like, oh my god, is the CEO doing this?

1:26:29I think it's the Wall Street Journal, calls up and run PR and they're like, yo, what's up here? And like, and then they're in PR. He's like, I don't know. It's not scaling. Don't worry. It's fast out. Just immediately through one of the bus. So much of the past. Everybody hated fast out in the company apparently, especially late in the game here, because people could figure out that he was getting rich on these LJM structures. He actually had LJM three was in the works to be a billion dollar fund and if that came together he was just gonna piece out and go do that you just can't make this stuff up so as that all starts happening fast out and skilling in the company and eventually decide all right Andy you've really taken one for the team here you can either stay at NRON be the CFO and head a corp dev or you can go run these funds you can no longer do both people are asking too many questions and so

1:27:22Fast out, ask for some time that weekend to go think about it, talk to his wife. He comes back to skilling and he's like, I'm loyal to Enron. I'm staying here. I'm gonna give up. I'm gonna sell off my interest. Sell my interest. I'm gonna get all my economics out of the interest while they're at an all-time high. Here's what he does. Back before the funds when they were just doing kind of one-off deals. Fast out had a direct report in the finance organization. A guy named Michael Copper. And he and Copper came to a, uh, understanding. A lot of understandings around this company. Here's this giant cookie jar of all these deals that Enron's doing and there's no lid on it. And they could kind of work together to, um, skim a few chocolate chips out of the cookie jar. And so they were in carrots together. And they had done a transaction together where, again, before the funds,

1:28:15One of the investors that had come in on one of the projects was CalPERS, the big California state employee pension retirement fund. They had done one of these offloading projects within Ron. This is with Enron Energy Services. This was the $130 million deal. Jedi? Yeah. Do you know, speaking of FTX, who the other big investor was along with CalPERS? Oh, I don't know. I didn't see this. You cannot make this stuff up.

1:28:42the Ontario Teachers Pension Plan. I think I did see that. Who are also, of course, big investors and FTX, right? Yes. So this particular entity who is called the Jedi entity, the Calpers and the Ontario Teachers Fund had invested in and Ron and fast wanted to do an even bigger deal with them. And Calpers said, okay, we're interested in a bigger deal, but we want to get our capital out of Jedi one. Get that capital out.

1:29:11and put even more capital into Jedi 2. And so Fasto's like, aha, I see an opportunity to enrich myself. So he drafts Copper into service here. And they create an entity called Chuko, short for Chubaka. Didn't sticking with the Star Wars theme here. Remember, this has all got to be fully independent. But Fasto and Copper both work at Enron. And why did Fasto target Copper as his accomplice here? Copper was gay and this is the 1990s in America gay marriage is not legal in Texas. I don't know if it was legal anywhere certainly was not legal in Texas and it was not legal federally in America at the time so coppers domestic partner a guy named Bill Dodson he's not legally married to copper and he's not part of Enron so they set up Dodson

1:30:08As the outside investor in Chico, to buy out the Jedi assets from Calpers, and then fast out and copper create a secret spreadsheet. This is the beginning of their sort of nefarious deals together. When the second set of books starts being created, that is a dangerous time. Yes, so on Copper's home laptop, they have this secret spreadsheet where they're keeping track of all the deals where they use Dodson as the front for...

1:30:37Anytime they need to offload from the offload, they use this deal to enrich themselves. God. Unbelievable. How did any of these guys plead not guilty? Unbelievable. And so Copper starts cutting checks from all the money they're making that Dodson is making. Copper starts cutting checks to Leo Fastow and his wife. And so that's how they spread the money around.

1:31:00unbelievable. So now flash forward. Back to when Andy is once again taking one for the team and selling off his general partner membership in the LGM funds. Who does he sell it to? He sells them to copper. Wow. And he's the same scheme for Andy, of course, to still stay involved and be getting a at least a 50 50 if not more share of everything. And this is like, you know, when he's fallen to his knees and told skilling, You're the only girl at the dance. You're the only one for me. I'm foregoing this whole grand idea I had around all these economics from the LJM partnerships. Not so much. All right, listeners. Now is a great time to thank our longtime friend of the show, ServiceNow. If you are running a large enterprise, AI agents are likely spread across every team, and deploying them is no longer the hard part.

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1:33:43last year and so they got to do a whole bunch of stuff to show a bunch of growth because boy is the stock pumping and boy does the stock need to pump in order for them to continue all these new equity issuances to give them the cash to do all this wild stuff so they've got the pipelines they're not particularly interested in that very old business that's kind of hard to fake or tinker with or innovate on top of and so they're like okay the trading business you know, sometimes we take big losses, but sometimes wild speculation can give us really big profits or at least paper profits. So let's trade more stuff. So they get into the electricity business. So for the first time, they move beyond natural gas. Of course, they find out that trading power is hard because unlike gigantic pipelines and tanks where you can store natural gas, you can't store electrons.

1:34:38Famously, batteries are very inefficient, so it's not like you can charge up batteries and store all the electrons there for a while until you need them somewhere else. You basically need to be producing the electrons at the exact same rate that you are consuming them. So that makes an electricity market interesting, but much harder than what they were doing in natural gas. They also expand into water, especially internationally.

1:35:01That's also very hard because all water droplets are not created equal. There's different impurities, different solidities that you have to treat. Of course, in the US, there's also no federal order requiring those who own water pipes to let anyone move stuff around inside of them the way that you have in natural gas and electricity. You know, these people who own the water pipes own the water pipes. And if they want to tell you you can't put your stuff in here and you can't make money off our asset, they're allowed to do that. So What else happens? They spin up trading teams for pulp and paper, weather derivatives, freight, metals trading, until they finally stumble on the thing that is really going to make them money, bandwidth, fiber optic network, Internet bandwidth, and Ron the tech company. And Ron the tech of the stock goes nuts when this gets announced. One quick note that we would be remiss if not talking about on this episode with regard to the

1:35:56power trading that they get into, the electricity trading, they become a key player in the total disaster that is the California blackouts. It's hard to know if they caused it or if they just profited from it. They certainly profited and they might have helped cause it. Yes. So what happened here? So this is worth talking about. So the California power markets were being deregulated, much like the natural gas markets, but not fully.

1:36:25The Enron traders, who are these pure capitalists, they're these pure sort of like, if there's a dollar on the table, it is my ethical responsibility to go take it, no matter what the impacts are, because I have an intellectual purity to... I don't think there's a lot of intellectual justification going on. More visceral. No, I think there is. I think it's a deeply philosophical thing where people believe that free markets are virtuous, and the only sort of virtuous thing to do is to have everything be a completely deregulated open free market and lay the rules of the game out clearly and then play the game. However, the rules say that you can play them. Yes, I think there's two classes. I think the skillings and like the Kenneth lays of the world fit that bill. I think a lot of the actual day to day traders are more just like red meat. You know, like trader make money guys. Yeah. So what happened here? Well, the state of California decided that they didn't want to go

1:37:24full free market. So they'd put in lots of safety measures that ended up being the opposite of that because usually when you add a new sort of mechanism into a free market, it can be played in a variety of different ways. So on the one hand, it seems reasonable to have controls in place on the other.

1:37:40and it entered a lot of new rules under the playing field for these traders to exploit. So people would run experiments to test if they were exploitable. They would see the results and then they would go hard and they would be rewarded for going hard. And so you know a company is not on the right side of history when memos start circulating on the floor with names like Death Star, Fat Boy, Get Shorty, and ricochet. These are various trading strategies in the California Energy Market. Yeah, just four of the trading strategies, but it's worth articulating some of the crazy stuff they did. So what is Death Star? Well, it was this experiment where Enron went into the market and filed an imaginary transmission schedule in order to get paid to alleviate congestion that didn't really exist. So this sort of like

1:38:33Can we spike something to watch the impact on something else and then make money from a contract on the impact of it somewhere else? Or Fat Boy was a scheme where Enron would submit a schedule to the marketplace reflecting demand that wasn't actually there, and then watching what sort of happened when that demand tried to be fulfilled, and there was nowhere to put it, so then there was a big extra amount of electricity being produced somewhere they could profit from that.

1:38:59get shorty selling power that Enron didn't actually have for you says reserves with the expectation that Enron would never actually be called upon to supply the power or it could just buy it later at a lower price or the worst of them all ricochet where Enron would work with someone who's generating power in California utility. Oh, is this where they have them shut it down for maintenance? No, this was where they would export it out of the state and they had control over the transmission line so they could do that.

1:39:28And then when California realized, oh crap, we need energy, then they would have a contract in place where Enron would get paid to bring it back in at much, much higher prices, which the industry would start calling this megawatt laundering, because that's really what it was. And I think what they would do is part of it too is call up generation plans where they had relationships and like encourage them to shut down for maintenance at specific points in time when they knew it would cause blackouts and spike the price. And it's exactly what it did.

1:39:57I mean, I am confident that people died from this. This is one of those things where, like, if you're randomly depriving huge swaths of California from power, hospitals, schools, people's homes, it's not funny games. I mean, it is profiting from terrible harmful activities to people. And this has such far-reaching impacts. I mean, this was one of, if not the major reason that California Governor Gray Davis gets recalled, and then Arnold Schwarzenegger gets elected governor.

1:40:26This was the key issue. And Ron and other trading companies were totally manipulating the market. Yep. So power trading, this whole thing is going on. That's sort of one corner of Enron. Another corner of Enron is this thing, Enron Energy Services, which this I believe is the division that loop high ran. But in 97, This was the current hotness for what to get investors excited about as the future of Antron. Because they sort of had done the, you know, we're a pure marketplace, then we're a financial derivatives, then they got market to market accounting and started doing all the international development. They started doing power. Well, Antron Energy Services is this thing that's killing really wants to sell this story about how it's taking off. And so let me just read this passage from the smartest guys in the room. Because I think this probably articulates

1:41:17the insidiousness of the Enron culture better than anything else. So analysts come to Houston. They tour the sixth floor of the EES War Room. There, they beheld the very picture of a sophisticated booming business, a big open room, bustling with people, all busy working the telephones, hunched over computer terminals, seemingly cutting deals and trading energy, giant plasma screens, displayed electronic maps, which could show sites of EES's many contracts and prospects. Commodity prices danced across an electronic ticker. It was impressive, recalls John Olson, who at the time covered the company for Merrill Lynch. It was a veritable beehive of activity. It was also a veritable sham. The war room had been

1:41:58rapidly fitted out, explicitly to impress the analysts. Though EES was just then gearing up, skilling in pie had staged it all to convince the visitors that things were really hopping. On the day the analysts arrived, the room was filled with Enron employees, many of them though did not work on the 6th floor at all.

1:42:15They were Secretary's EES staff from other locations. Non-EES employees who had been drafted for the occasion, coached on the importance of appearing busy. One, an administrative assistant named Kim Garcia recalls being told to bring her personal photos to make it look as if she actually worked at the desk where she was sitting. She spent most of the time talking to her girlfriends on the phone.

1:42:35After getting the all-clear signal Garcia packed up her belongings and returned to her real desk on the ninth floor, the analyst had no clue they'd been hoodwicked. Oh, yeah, this is like a classic boiler room. This is great. Unbelievable. And that was 97. That was four years before the fall. They were pulling crap like that. Should we talk about the broadband services and internet division? Absolutely.

1:42:59and run the internet company suddenly, magically. I mean, this company started by merging two pipelines and here they are, the seventh most valuable company in the world because they're somehow the company that's going to capitalize on this new internet thing. Did you read about how they did a deal with blockbuster? This is the best. I mean, this is like truly, you can't make this stuff up. This is like tailor-made for acquired. Before the blockbuster Netflix thing and before blockbuster even considered streaming, They offered a video on demand product that was provided by Enron's fiber. Somehow Enron was doing the servers and digital delivery. And this was video on demand being like, if you were like a cable or satellite subscriber on your cable box, you could get video on demand, right? Like this wasn't the internet. This isn't internet streaming. This is like on demand, but via the cable infrastructure, right? I think that's right.

1:43:56I think they only had bad movies. I don't think they were able to block up good ones. I don't think however they ended up delivering it. I don't think the consumer demand was really there. The service never launched. But of course with Enron's mark to market, they booked over a hundred million dollars in revenue on day one for it. And then they offloaded the project to a special purpose entity. 110 million even better David. So they offloaded it to a special purpose entity. At some point, they tore off the contract.

1:44:23I don't know if it was Enron or Buckbuster, but they basically said this deal sucks. No one wants this. So you know what they did? They created an even bigger impact to revenue in the positive direction, like more than a hundred million dollars because a new thing had happened. It's not a contract. It's the lack of a contract.

1:44:43So now they have the ability to do deals with everyone. They're not locked into an exclusive deal with blockbuster. So that creates a huge amount of future value for Enron, the company, their shareholders. And so they literally recognized revenue even bigger than the blockbuster deal after the lack of blockbuster deal. Oh, I didn't see that. That's amazing. Is wicked stuff. I mean, this is where you're just like you guys are criminals. Okay. So before we come back to the wheels starting to fall apart in 2001. There's one more piece of the intervening go-go years we should talk about. You want to talk about and run online? Yes, so of course we were referring to the bandwidth trading which also is much more difficult than trading natural gas. I mean like how exactly is that all going to work? Trading available bandwidth especially when there's this like massive last mile problem to everyone's homes and if someone needs more bandwidth in one place than another like

1:45:39How is that going to work? You're just physically going to widen the wires or I think people just didn't really understand these concepts yet. And so there's like lots of excitement around what Enron's doing in trading bandwidth around being an internet company, but they actually do launch an internet product. Now the internet product is really just to advantage their in house business. And this one to me seems like it's probably not fraud. It's just an example of like evil.

1:46:08But beneficial for shareholders business strategy. In November of 99, they launched something called Enron Online. And what this is, is it allows all of Enron's counterparties to trade with them electronically. So they stand up and exchange, like a exchange you can access through a web browser, much like FTX, but Enron itself.

1:46:31is the counterparty to every trade. They don't even pretend that they're not on the other side of most transactions. Oh my God. I didn't make the FTX Alameda connection in this. This is too good. It is just the craziest thing where they're just like, yep, we're the counterparty to every single trade here. So we're going to generate a little bit of spread on the exchange. And we're probably going to get beneficial pricing being the counterparty because we have the most information in the market for everything that's being traded on here.

1:47:00because it is our marketplace and we're going to use that information. It's a pretty savvy data advantage. Now, unfortunately, what they do with that data advantage is they do manipulate markets. And that, I believe, leads to some part of the downfall case against them, where they are controlling commodity prices and stuff like that. But that, I thought, in 99, that really is a pretty savvy way to use the internet for evil.

1:47:29You know, a really funny thing, maybe we'll talk about this more in playbook, is at the same time, this is, I think, really best reflected in both skilling and fast-o. They were all so smart, and yet also so stupid. The combination of brilliance and stupidity in one person and one group of people is really something.

1:47:51It's almost like it was smart, but it was cognitive dissonance, where like they just thought the rug was infinitely large that they could just keep sweeping stuff under it. And that at some point it would never become an issue for them. And in skilling, you watch some of his testimony because everyone else pleaded the fifth, skilling stood trial and tried to defend himself. He really does look like a man who thought he did nothing wrong. It's crazy to me how skilling I mean, I think he really was delusional that there was so much innovation here that he thought it was okay. I don't know. There are examples of where you could draw a different conclusion, but you're right. They were smart. And I don't know that they were also stupid. I think they also just had a lot of cognitive dissonance that it somehow wouldn't all come tumbling down. I've actually been thinking about this recently, both in the context of FTX and just generally also...

1:48:47Being a new parent makes you think about some of this stuff. It's probably good to be smart. It's certainly good to be of above average intelligence, good for you as your success in the world. But there's a certain point, I think, where increased intelligence either is neutral or negative to your ultimate happiness. And I think it's cases like this, like NRON, like FTX. There's no question that SBF and a lot of the people involved in FTX and Alameda were brilliant.

1:49:17But like they're too smart like they end up hurting themselves, you know, and like the end-run case is the same thing. And is it the smarts or is it the cockiness? Because clearly what was happening here is they just thought no one would ever catch him. I think that is really what started to come out is I mean fast. I went five years without having to disclose how much compensation he was getting from the LGM partnerships. He just thought, I'll just keep self-dealing. But you're right about skilling, it's a little more than that we're skilling. He's the only one who doesn't end up pleading the fifth, like he defends himself to the end. Which he later says was stupid, by the way. He's like, I should have listened to my counsel just like everyone else's counsel. And this is like the smart stupid thing, like he, um, I think maybe it's that he just completely fell in love with his own ideas. Yeah.

1:50:01Cause he's always talking about how brilliant he is, how f'ing smart he is. And it always worked. I mean, that's the craziest thing is it always worked every time to bring us back to the story from that 99 2000 period. And this is, I think rumored, I don't think this was in the court documents, but lots of substantiation around the rumor. He managed to convince Lay that he should get $20 million in cash if he was not made CEO of Enron by the end of 2000. Like what?

1:50:30I mean, this guy is so good at convincing people to do stuff. Are you convinced the SEC that Mark DeMarket Accounting would be a good thing? Right? It's like, oh, if you fire me, you have to pay me $20 million, unless you want to make me CEO of the company. And the only negotiating position that he had was otherwise I'll just quit, and you'll be screwed without me. I'll just quit right now. And laid, signed that deal. They'd need a number round so bad. While speaking of skilling quitting, let's move the story towards that, shall we?

1:50:59Yeah, so the first cracks in the armor start in September of 2000. So the stock is still on its way up and hasn't peaked yet, but you have a short seller named Jim Chanos, who for the first time is starting to make noise around just the most basic fundamentals here. Hey, I'm reading your quarterly reports and they're completely unparsable. You're technically disclosing a bunch of stuff. I have no idea what you're disclosing.

1:51:27Can you help me understand the business? How do you make money? And you then start to have reporters getting involved because reporters love getting tips from short sellers because short sellers have a massive financial incentive to go and investigate and figure out what companies are going to fail. And that's a really good where there's smoke. There's fire for reporters. So, you know, reporters start getting involved. And the big question is sort of like, how does Enron make money? And as people start digging in with scaling and with lay and with fast down and granting interviews and doing this sort of stuff,

1:51:55Nobody can figure it out no one can figure it out and you get conflicting statements like you hear skillings say it couldn't be more obvious you just need to dig in understand our business we're very clear we're very communicative we're not hiding anything and then two sentences later you hear something like we don't want to tell our competitors how we make money so of course we're not going to share details like that and you're like sorry what the cognitive dissonance is just crazy so one of the reporters The Channos, I don't know one of her or the only reporter that he goes to, is Bethany McLean at Fortune. At Fortune, the same publication that Dave's Enron, the most innovative and best managed company in America. Amazing. Yes. So she publishes on March 5, 2001 an article entitled Is Enron Overpriced? Question Mark.

1:52:46which is wonderfully innocuous. Oh, it's merely a price issue. It's not that bad of an article from Enron's perspective. The biggest question it raises is not one of fraud. It's exactly what you said, Ben. It's like, Enron is a black box. Nobody can figure out what's going on here. But there's no accusations of fraud or anything wrong going on, et cetera. There have been some other articles, but this is the first big article questioning what's going on in Enron. The subhead is It's in a bunch of complex businesses. It's financial statements are nearly impenetrable. So why is Enron trading at such a high multiple? That is the most innocuous and reasonable question to ask. Because when you go and compare it, you actually do industry comparables. Before the fall, it stocks trading at all time high, everything seems up into the right. In fact, just in that January, January of 01, they've rebranded from the world's leading energy company to the world's leading company.

1:53:43It's literally the subhead, the tagline for the company. Oh, can we talk about the company slogan that they used in their commercials, which was ask why? Literally the company slogan. People ask them why of like about how their financials they can't tell you. There was discussion of whether they should be the world's coolest company, but literally the only reason they didn't do that is because it didn't translate well. So they just went with the world's leading company. There is video footage of Jeff's killing unveiling the new slogan at a shareholder meeting and everyone clapping. It's like the world's leading company. It's not a mission. What do we do? I want to be the world's leading podcast. What do you think? But that's actually a thing. I guess that is a thing. Anyway, so the financials, it's worth highlighting the good time to pick as maybe March of 2000. It was trading at 55x trailing earnings, which if you look at it, you think it's an energy company, you compete against Duke Energy, which is a reasonable competitor. It's two and a half times the multiple.

1:54:41You're like, hmm, okay. Well, maybe it's more than an energy company. Maybe I'm missing something here. It's an internet company. Yeah. But you're like, okay, well, maybe it's like a trading firm then. Maybe it's like a Goldman Sachs. Well, Goldman Sachs is only trading at this point at 17 times earnings. So why is Enron trading at 55 times earnings? And you're like, wait a minute. And he's starting and you're like, well, when I can see Goldman Sachs as earnings, I can sort of tie it out to the rest of the financial statements and see earnings eventually showing up as cash.

1:55:08But this is a company that's trading two and a half to three times higher than any reasonable comp. And if you actually start digging in and looking at their free cash flow or looking at any return on investment metric that you decide to pick is terrible. There's no cash and there's really no return on invested capital ever showing up. And sometimes their return on invested capital is actually less than their cost of capital. So when you look at the cash of this business, Awful. Yes. Indeed it is. And the first part, the high multiple is and run over price question. That's a reasonable conversation to have. And this is a good thing that friend of the show, Andrew Marx, pointed out, when you see terrible returns on invested capital and you see no free cash flow showing up ever or poor free cash flow dynamics, that's probably when there's fraud. If there's very high revenue growth, very high reported,

1:56:06earnings and profit on the income statement and there is low return on invested capital and poor free cash flow dynamics. Probably your radar screen should be going off. Yep. And this of course is a thing that short sellers pay a lot of attention to. They look for companies that have all of those metrics that we just described trending in exactly those directions because that's probably where there's a big accounting issue that's about to happen. And the big cognitive dissonance I think is the reported profits versus the cash flow because you think about like start ups, right? Lots of startups for instance can be reporting high revenue growth but be burning lots of cash as they're investing in growth and operations and whatnot. In Enrod's case and in the case of a lot of frauds, they're reporting high revenue growth and high profits on the income statement but also burning cash. Yep. So people are starting to figure this out. Short sellers, journalists, and eventually finally, finally some analysts

1:57:03Managed to shake loose of the my job is to say and Ron is awesome thing and they start to ask hard questions on earnings calls because for the longest time it has been that You were rewarded for saying and Ron's great because the stock would go up and then you would look like a genius and anytime anybody said and Ron wasn't great either they were proven wrong by the stock price or They would get slapped at work because they're saying hey, this is a huge client of ours We do lots of business with them because and Ron did lots of business with Everybody kept everybody on the payroll. So are you talking about the April 17th? 2001. Herding's call. I am. Where? One Richard Cropman of Highfields Capital, which is actually a hedge fund and had a short position on Enron. Asks skilling. I think this is skilling's first earnings call as actual CEO number one of the company. Oh man. It does not go well. Spoiler alert.

1:58:00Because he's been running the big profit center forever in trading. And he's been trying to masquerade the business and same with Candle. As we're still a logistics company, but they obviously skated the crap out of their segments and their financial reporting. So you can't tell that all the money is actually being made by trading, money being made, quote, unquote, all the income being generated on the income statement comes from trading, which you kind of can't tell. Anyway, so now he finally steps into the CEO role and is responsible for these earnings calls. And here's the question. Tell me if you think this is like

1:58:30overly combative or merits a like nuclear level response. Grubben asks, why and Ron, unlike 99% of other companies out there, when they report earnings, why did they only report an income statement and they don't report their balance sheet or cashless statement? And those things only get reported been like you said earlier in the episode weeks or months later in the SEC official, you know, 10K and 10K filings. Why don't you report it all at once?

1:58:59Everybody else. And I think his literal words he says, you seem to be the only financial institution incapable of producing a balance sheet with earnings. Okay. So maybe like a little flip. Yes. A skilling responds by, I forget how he starts the answer. He says something like, thank you very much for the question or something like that. Yes. He says, well, first of all, thank you very much. We, uh, asshole.

1:59:29And everybody in the room on the call starts looking around. Is it like, did the CEO what just happened? Of the seventh largest company in the world? Just call an analyst an asshole on an earning skull? Yes, yes indeed. That is exactly what happened.

1:59:52He does apologize. He says I'm sorry. I've been at a real sort of lack of sleep. He's been making noise internally to Kenlay even only a few months on the job of saying I'm not having fun in this job. Of course Kenlay is sort of parroting back to him and private close to our rooms like this was supposed to be fun. I thought this was something you wanted. I thought you knew how hard this was and skilling isn't thriving as a CEO.

2:00:17Skilling starts spiraling. More bad news starts coming out. This is after this when news and speculation about the California power market manipulation starts coming out. And PG&E files for chapter 11 bankruptcy in April of 2001, too. Yep. So things are starting going bad. The tech bubble starting to burst. That's affecting the market. The N Ron stock starts falling from the all time high in the fall of the previous year, just above $90 a share falls down into the 40s. So like, pretty bad. It's lost like over half its value. And just to make a FTX comparison here, I mean, lots of the time you get away with poor accounting and lots of leeway from investors in a bull market. And then when the bubble pops in the equities market, like the dot com bubble happened or January of 2022 happened in tech stocks, and you start to see the tide go out.

2:01:10combined with other potentially attractive lower-risk places to put capital, you start sort of scrutinizing things that were really high-risk places to put capital, or things that were at high multiples, or things that weren't quite connected to intrinsic value, like crypto. Like a lot of people are looking at crypto saying, why am I investing in this again? And so you start to have, these two things are a little bit different, like the prices of crypto falls, so it causes margin calls for crypto hedge funds, which then sort of unravels the whole beast.

2:01:40But it's the same dynamic of the tide going out, which I think right is a how it marks quote, right? Of course, guess the show and dad of Andrew or Buffett. I don't know which one got it from the other. Yeah. When the tide goes out, you see who's swimming without their swimming trunks on. But it's so true that that's when the stuff actually gets scrutinized. Everybody was just making money all the way up. And so now that There's real shaking is in the equities market in 2001 from the dot com bubble bursting. Everyone's re-examining everything they assume to be true before and it's feeling much more reasonable to ask questions like, Hey, can you produce a balance sheet? So what happens next? Nobody inside or outside the company could predict within a couple months by August of 2001. Skilling had just taken over at the beginning of the year as CEO of the company in the beginning of August. Skilling goes to lay.

2:02:31who's still the chairman of the board and says, I'm quitting. I'm resigning. I'm out. I can't handle this. And he cites personal reasons. I don't want to blame this on my family. So I can't in the press release say that I want to spend more time with my family, even though I do. All you can say is personal reasons. And I'm out just because my mental health is falling apart. I can't take it.

2:02:52I want to spend time teaching, I want to do philanthropic efforts, this isn't what I wanted, this isn't fun, blah blah blah. In conspiracy of fools and it sounds like it was the same in smartest guys in the room. It is sort of painted as like, yeah, he really was having a mental breakdown and that was the motivation here. You have to ask though. The tide is going out. Skilling is as much as anybody.

2:03:18Everybody's to blame here, certainly lays to blame, fastouts to blame, but I think you're right, you're skilling is like the most to blame. Skilling was the architect of the demise. Lay, you could make an argument, was out to lunch. The whole time, he was a key enabler at the very least. And fastout certainly was evil, but was acting on direction from skilling. Yeah.

2:03:42Sometimes other times he saw a cash grab opportunity for himself. Well, he was embezzling for himself, but in terms of like damage to the company and like perpetuating this house of cards, the skilling was the architect of the house of cards. So you got to ask, does he see the tides going out in the market? This house is going to collapse. I need to get out now and he starts selling stock as he's leaving. And then after he leaves, he sells a lot of and run stock and All the executives were at this point. Ken Lay had been on a selling plan for the last couple of years. We need to talk about how Ken Lay was selling. Ken Lay was so over leveraged. He had received advice from his money manager saying, you really should diversify. All of your wealth has tied up in Enron stock. It's all you've had since 1986, and it's really run. And so what he does, and it's so confusing because he's savvy. I don't know why he does this. Instead of diversifying

2:04:39He claims he's diversifying, but what he's actually doing is doubling down. So instead of selling his Enron stock, he starts taking margin loans against his Enron stock and using that to invest in other things. Now Enron stock starts collapsing. He starts getting margin-called. And so he's then needing to sell Enron stock in order to service the debt that he used to invest in these other projects. This is my own speculation. This is not alluded to in...

2:05:07certainly not in conspiracy of fools. But when I took a step back and looked at what was going on here, you know, Lay is not a bozo. He may have been out to lunch, but he knew what was going on here for sure. And like, he was probably just as evil as any of them.

2:05:21And when we say out to lunch, physically what was he doing? He was taking one of the Enron corporate jets around sometimes to vacation with his family, sometimes to pick his daughter up from France, but often to DC to Hobnob. Yeah, with the Bush family and other people in the Bush administration. And even in between the two Bush administrations with the Clinton administration, he gave him much of money there too and did meetings with the Clinton administration officials. So I think what might have been going on here, yes, Ken had most of his net worth in Enron's stock. And then he started doing margin loans against that stock with banks. And then we get the margin calls and he would have to repay them. But the way he repayed them was he took cash loans from Enron. So Enron loaned him. My God. Cash. What a merry around. And Ken backed his collateral for that cash that he ended up then repaying the loans to Enron with.

2:06:17was the Enron stock that he originally had taken the margin loans against. So he got the cash out of Enron, used it to repay the loans that he had gotten the money from the banks, right? And then the repayment mechanism of all this is...

2:06:33Ken's equity goes back to the company. So nowhere do sales show up. Nowhere does it show up to any publicly available information that Ken Lay is selling his enter on shares. It just looks like there's anti-deletion happening at the company, the company's repurchasing shares. So I think you could make an argument, this is all circumstantial, that this is like totally nefarious, a way to get money out without alerting the market that the chairman is selling.

2:06:59I think you nailed it. I think there's another thing that's in the smartest guys in the room, where they referenced the fact that I don't think for his particular sales, they classified under some weird thing where they didn't have to disclose it till after the fiscal year, rather than in quarter. And so he was able to sell an enormous amount before having to report it. Yeah, I'll told, I think, lay sales about $300 million worth of Van Rahn stock via these transactions.

2:07:26I'm skilling sells about 200 million and fast out a bunch of the other executives sell a whole bunch too. And fast out actually makes $60 million from the LGM partnerships, from fees, carry, and selling partnership interests. So he actually makes more from the LGM's than I think he does in total comp at Enron ever. Which the board never knew and then as everything is really starting to devolve and we'll get into that now. At one point the board corners fast out and they ask him, How much money have you made from these partnerships and he tells them and they immediately fire him? So and here's the one twinge of a smoking gun on skilling of why he was quitting that a Wall Street Journal reporter sort of unearthed in a conversation with him. It's an pseudo innocuous conversation. It's like this kind of I'm leaving for personal reasons blah blah blah and he drops one line and he goes and watching the stock price fall is just so depressing. I probably wouldn't acquit if not for that.

2:08:25And then the report goes, wait, what? That doesn't sound like a personal reason. That sounds like a business reason. That's when they can really take that ball and run with it and realize all the layers of what's going on here. A big one was, and this is a thing that got way reformed after Enron, all communication from the company to employees, to investors, and between the board and executives to set their compensation is about the stock price.

2:08:55They're always saying buy the stock. Yes, not about any intrinsic characteristics. The company's not giving guidance on just, hey, here's what we think revenue is going to be. And they're not telling employees what you should tell employees, which is, I don't really know if this will go up or down, but here's the direction I think the intrinsic measurable parts of the business are going to go. What Enron is telling everyone is, I think the stock will go up.

2:09:16What can lay what's killing or telling people is stop should be 125 what's it doing down at 40 this is terrible that these videos you can find of lay at employee all hands where he gets a question card of should employees invest invested in run stock in their 401k's and this is the same time that lay is doing the structure transactions we were talking about to offload his in run stock selling his shares and he says I think you should put all of your 401k in and run stock and I don't see any reason why the stock shouldn't be two or three x what it is now next year oh it's just brutal it's brutal now when you comp all these executives and incentivize their bonuses against the stock price rather than against

2:10:04Again, things in the company's control, like its revenues, like its performance, and you tie it all to stock performance, then it incentivizes everyone to do these crazy things of pump the stock so they get their bonuses. Okay, so, skilling surprise resigns, lay comes back in into the operator seat as CEO. And he surprised resigns, same day with no transition. Yeah, no transition is just like, I'm out. Gone. So lay comes back in and two things happen.

2:10:33One, he asks, fast out the CFO, he's trying to get a handle on what's going on here. Again, he's been out to lunch for years at this point, both metaphorically and literally speaking. And he asks fast out, say like, okay, what's the current debt obligations of Enron? I know what's on our balance sheet, but let's add up all the obligations we have with all these special purposes that we've done. Fast out is like, I don't know. Let me go work on that, and I'll come back to you.

2:11:02And the answer was literally that they didn't know because they did not keep this stuff in a centralized location. They signed all this paper through all these different entities and there was not a central ledger anywhere with who owes what to who. So he comes back to lay in the board and says.

2:11:19Our actual obligations are $34 billion, which the debt on the balance sheet was $12.8 billion. So everybody is shocked. It's becoming clear like this is a major liquidity existential crisis for the company. And the company has no cash flow. So it's like, oh, well, maybe we can service that debt with next quarter's cap. No, no, no, no, no. There is no cash coming in the door. So then right around the same time.

2:11:46a VP in Corp. Dev named Sharon Watkins writes first anonymous memo and then she puts her name on it and asks for a private meeting with Ken Lay about this memo that she writes where she's trying to be a whistleblower here. She's like, look, what's going on has reached such a crazy pitch and all these LGM transactions that are happening and everything finance is doing and all these off-book entities. She writes in the memo, quote, I am incredibly nervous that we will implode in a wave of accounting scandals. And Lay meets with her, reads the memo, but just like back in the day with the rogue traders, he doesn't do anything. No need for confrontation. I don't think we should do anything about this. No need for action. This is August 2001. Think about that. We are now mere days away from September 11th. September 11th happens.

2:12:41Terrible, obviously awful, but in a crazy way, this was a reprieve for Enron. It took everybody's eye off the ball of the investor community in the press of how bad things were getting at Enron. It also gave them cover to say, geez, every stock's down right now. Right. And they needed this because partially due to the events of September 11th, but this was a ticking time bomb was going to happen anyway. The morning of September 12th, the next day when the financial markets reopen.

2:13:10and Ron's commercial paper, their overnight loans, don't turn over. There's no buyers for the overnight and Ron commercial paper, which a quick primer we won't get into too many details here, because frankly, I don't understand all of them, but for Treasury and corporate finance, most large companies, and especially trading operations, they have what's called overnight commercial paper, which are very, very short-term loans that they use to finance the daily cash obligations of the company.

2:13:39paying payroll, paying vendors, that kind of stuff. If you think about what's a company like Microsoft have, 70,000 employees, and you think about how much money they need every two weeks to pay all those people, they don't just keep an enormous part of their treasury in cash to pull that off. They effectively have a margin loan against their treasury that they use that actually finances the short-term cash flow needs of the company. This is super standard. Every large public company does this, and it is If shocking if your paper doesn't what's called turnover, which is get repurchased, you know, every day. Right. And like if Microsoft asked me, can you loan me some money for the next 24 hours? I promise I'll give it back to you with this tiny amount of interest. And actually, if you're open to it, would you be game to keep agreeing to do that every day for the next five years? Every day, you think I'm going to be like, sure. On September 12th.

2:14:30And Ron's commercial paper doesn't turn over. Nobody's there to buy it. Now, if this were not September 12, 2001, that would have been game over for Enron, like right there. That would have been the end. But everybody's a little distracted. Because they generate cash flow in no other way. So there's no other way to tap any cash. Everybody's a little distracted. They're able to pull through for at least another couple of weeks. Later, though, by kind of early October, everybody's recovered enough in the rest of the financial community.

2:15:00from September 11th that they resume the questioning of Enron. The Wall Street Journal starts running stories about LGM and speculating on how much they think fast-out might have pulled out of these entities and earned for himself at the expense of the company. Arthur Anderson starts getting real nervous about their role in enabling all of this. And then... Arthur Anderson sort of pre-meditates. There might be an investigation at some point.

2:15:30and we are not allowed to destroy the evidence once there's been an investigation notified to us so maybe let's get ahead of it and let's shred more documents than we've ever shredded in the entire history of the firm before we get served something by an attorney so are there Anderson legal on October 12th sends an email to the Houston office god this email literally directing them in writing in an email to start destroying any and all non-finalized documents that are related to Enron, either digital or physical, quote, in accordance with the firm's document retention policy. They've never sent anything like this or done anything like this for any other client. And then they followed up with a second sentence that says, just so that we're in accordance with the policy. Yes, the policy. This is the policy.

2:16:22This is a regularly scheduled, of course. I'm just reminding you to do the regularly scheduled policy, which this email may set the policy, but, you know, do what the policy says. So that Houston office of Arthur Anderson, they go on for weeks like the volume of evidence destroyed here, tens of thousands of emails deleted. That's like the easy to get your mind around.

2:16:46The amount of physical documents that they shred, they cannot physically shred the paper fast enough. They are shredding one ton of paper every single day. That's the maximum capacity. This goes on for weeks. Dozens of tons of paper that they shred of documents related to Enron. My god, if they weren't guilty before, they sure look guilty of something bad now. And I think...

2:17:14You might know more than I do here, but I think Arthur Anderson went under not because they were found guilty of anything, but because when this all started playing out and they went in the news as being Enron's auditors for all this document destruction for being really sloppy, they were complicit and sloppy and Ron needed to do a handful of restatements that were just straight up Arthur Anderson's fault. I think their customers all just left. And so Arthur Anderson basically ran out of business. Well, it's somewhere in between. So Anderson itself, I don't believe ever faces any certainly no criminal actions for its direct role within Enron, I don't believe, but they do face criminal action from the Department of Justice and the SEC over destroying of documents. And as a result of that, the SEC in 2002, middle of 2002,

2:18:13revokes Anderson's CPA license. So literally bars them from, oh, I didn't realize that. Okay. They had already started to lose tons of clients because shocker Anderson was also the auditor of WorldCom which would be an even bigger bankruptcy that would happen shortly after and run. So they'd already started to lose clients and then the SEC revokes their license and that's the end of the firm. Like it's done. It's over. They employed 85,000 people gone.

2:18:40And it really was the most reputable firm in the world. And it was destroyed. It's over. But back to Enron. So it was October 12th that Anderson starts shredding on October 16th. Ben, like you were saying, Enron reports earnings. They announced $638 million of losses for like the first time on their income statement. And they say they have to do a restatement of shareholder equity and restate $1.2 billion worth of shareholder equity.

2:19:09related to improper accounting of off-books entities. And this is the Raptors, right? I think this is the Raptors. It may have been some others too. I love that it's called the Raptors. Okay, this is fast out. There's four entities, Raptor 1, 2, 3, and 4. They also have other names for some reason that they're like referred to in multiple ways, but they're off-balance sheet vehicles that Enron's basically using to hide large debt loads. They're carrying in huge losses. In fact, I think The raptors start co-signing deals, or at least sort of combingling, so that if one can't pay something off, then the other ones on the hook for it. Well, I think the raptors are also like, what's the way we're in a hypothesis? Is that like the biggest, most grandest example of Enrond's just like, awfulness in accounting? The raptors, I believe, were hedges intended to be hedges on some of...

2:20:05and Ron's investments, but the actual mechanism and the underlying collateral that they used for the hedge was in Ron stock itself. So they became this massively toxic. They didn't actually hedge anything, and all it did was double the exposure to a broad-based stock market hit. It feels like even if Enron hadn't started falling apart before September 11th, September 11th would have been the trigger because they had all this correlated risk. So as soon as They're stocked, stopped going up for any reason, then the whole thing would crumble. And indeed, that is what happens. So October 22nd, the SEC announces that they're launching an inquiry into Enron's accounting. The next day, the 23rd is when the board calls in fast-out and demands to know how much money he's made in the LGM funds. They find out they fire him. The instate.

2:20:57The former company treasurer, Jeff McMahon, who had been the treasurer but then fast-out had ousted him because he wasn't loyal enough to fast-out, he comes back into the finance department this time as the CFO. McMahon learns that not only did fast-out not know how much debt NRAN has an organization had, he also didn't know how much cash they had.

2:21:20And he also didn't know the maturity schedule of the debt so he didn't know and thus nobody in finance knew the company didn't know when they had to repay the debt which to me this is the biggest example of they thought the rug that they were sweeping stuff under was infinitely large because they had no plan to service any of this debt or track any of it there is no plan.

2:21:41They just somehow never thought they would need to or would catch up to them. I don't know. Well, I guess to, you know, what you've been saying the whole episode, which is true, if the markets had always been good and the stock price had always gone up, they always could have just issued more equity to cover any cash needs that they had. Right. But obviously that's not going to happen now. So it takes McMahon and his new team a couple days to pull all that together. When they do, they figure out the company is basically already insolvent, so they need emergency financing. So they do the only thing that they can do, which is they pull down all the revolving credit lines they have with all of their banks. These are outstanding revolving lines, like credit cards, revolving lines of credit with banks. They actually went and asked the banks, hey can we get new debt lines with you? And every single one said no. And so they pulled the credit lines, which the banks have no option. It's already negotiated and signed. In round drew down the credit lines.

2:22:36Yes, and Ron draws down those credit lines, and then they issue a press release that they've done this in order to assure shareholders that they're under great financial footings, now they have all this cash, and B, show the bank's support, and that they stand behind Enron. You're like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

2:22:58credit agencies immediately downgrade and runs credit rating. Finally, they're shocking that they hadn't until then. Moody's, they've been complicit the whole time in just shows you just how much of a racket this thing is. No one has been actually underwriting this company to decide if they're creditworthy or not. So at this point, it's obvious even to the most fervent believers or head in the sand people at the company, you can make your argument of which category each of the executives and the board stood in with that but it's obvious and runs in a death spiral so two things happen one can lay starts calling around all of his political connections in the Bush administration basically with his handout looking for a bailout kind of like um you know what would happen in uh in 2008 in the financial crisis the Bush administration does not give and run a bailout so there's no days there once

2:23:54That becomes clear. He does the only next thing that is even any remote possible chance of saving the company, which is he reaches out to the CEO of Enron's largest competitor, Dynergy, and tries to broker a deal. He also tried to line up a bunch of private equity. He was going to go for a take private. They called Warren Buffett. Buffett was completely uninterested. They called 10 other, they were looking for capital sources. Anybody that's got cash or the ability to take us private, let's do it. And no bites.

2:24:24Let's try and get acquired. So they go to the kind of cross-town rivals in Houston, Dynagy, who got no press and no fanfare over the last several years, but they're kind of the same thing. I think they're pipeline and trading in conspiracy fools. I don't know if this is in smartest guys in the room. There's quotes from Enron people talking about Dynagy as the burger king to Enron's McDonald's. And they're trading in a much lower multiple. They have no sort of big story. So here's what happens.

2:24:53They strike a super fast, you know, 11th hour deal to save Enron, prevent it from filing from bankruptcy. Dynagy's gonna acquire Enron for $8 billion, an all stock deal, no cash. But Enron, of course, needs more cash to survive until the deal can close and Dynagy can complete its due diligence. So Dynagy lends $1.5 billion.

2:25:21to Enron and Cash to help Enron through the liquidity crisis. And the loan is secured by Enron's core original pipeline assets. So back to the inner North days, there's valuable, actual operating pipelines, the only thing that is actually tangible in the company. And I think JP Morgan comes into the deal too. And so JP Morgan mandates that, but they also mandate that all future and Ron investment banking business will be handled by JP Morgan over the next 18 months. There's an internal memo at JP Morgan that's like, these guys are going to need a lot of investment banking help and we're going to mandate that we get those fees. So the deal gets signed, it gets announced to the market on November 9th, 2001. In the intervening period, while all the documents are being prepared and Diner G is doing its due diligence on the deal,

2:26:18It comes out. Remember Chico that we were talking about a while back, the Chuvaka, the Andy Fastow and Michael Copper total front to buy out the toxic waste that they thought they'd sealed up. Well, right at this time, Anderson, who's now fearing for its own skin, they're looking back through all this because everything's going on and they're like, they discover about copper and Dodson in like this crazy domestic partnership front. They're not married. So technically Dodson isn't a spouse and they say, this is no good. We can't count that. It's not independent. We're going to have to restate everything. All the assets associated with Chico and Jedi. It's like restating years worth of all the way back to 1997.

2:27:06we're going to have to reconsolidate all of those assets and liabilities back onto Enron's balance sheet. Undo the market accounting on the revenue side. This comes out during that period. So there's a further sort of equivalent of run on the bank with Enron. Liquidity dries up even more. It blows through the one and a half billion dollars that Dinergy lent it and is out of money again. I can't let you get away with this. Like run on the bank thing.

2:27:36The context you use it is totally fair. In the context that the Enron executives were using it, in this period, it was a completely unfair analogy. They were like, oh, it was merely a run on the bank. If people hadn't gotten spooked from those darn journalists in the short sellers writing that story, we would have been fine. And no, runs on the bank are an issue when the bank is being irresponsible. You can't say, oh, it's just a run on the bank, because if the bank is runnable, there's a problem. And specifically, I think where all that money goes and the run on the bank nature of this is Remember, and Ron's an active trader in the markets, well none of their counter parties are willing to trade with them anymore without cash guarantees backing up the trade. So they use up all the liquidity basically cash guaranteeing all the trade settlements that they're doing. So at the end of the month, on November 28th, 2001, Dinergy walks away from the deal. The deal's cancelled. The news of this hits the press.

2:28:34at 10.30 a.m. I assume central time on November 28th. Amazingly, this is just like an amazing coincidence. Who knows, you know, I'm sure nothing was told or confidential information shared or pre-planned at 10.20 a.m. 10 minutes before the news comes out.

2:28:58sells 500,000 shares of Enron stock that the Kennen, whatever her name is, that the Lay Family Foundation held unbelievable. You cannot make this stuff up. Once the news comes out, everybody knows Enron is bankrupt. The stock crashes down to 61 cents a share when it becomes obvious. Down from $82 a share earlier that year and 90 the year before. Okay, so 61 cents. Keep that in mind. That is what the stock is trading.

2:29:28By the way, that Ken Lay thing, like he, the Lay Family Foundation made some money on the way out. Do you know about the other $60 million thing? Ooh, I'm not sure I do. As a part of the Dynagy Term Sheet, upon completion of the deal, Ken Lay just got $60 million in cash as like a bonus. It was that golden parachute, yeah, because he was gonna leave as part of the deal. Exactly. And there was such a revolt among employees who were all like actively losing their life savings and retirement.

2:29:56or like hell no, and so he ended up realizing the optics were bad enough that he actually put that into the company. It ended up not mattering anyway, because the energy deal didn't happen, but yeah, crazy. Okay, so it's clear Enron is going to file for bankruptcy in the coming days. Stock goes down to 61 cents. On December 2nd, indeed, just a few days later, Enron files for chapter 11 bankruptcy at the time, the largest bankruptcy in US history, Ben, as you said at the top of the show, it would not be for long, though, because six months later, WorldCom would be larger. And since then, there have actually been five chapter 11 bankruptcies that are larger. Not crazy, but like this was the largest at the time, 20 years ago, but now you've got layman, Washington Mutual WorldCom GM, like much bigger bankruptcies than Enron since. I think Lehman is the largest, right?

2:30:49Layman is the largest. It's the only one in the like high hundreds of billions. Whereas Enron had 63 billion in assets before filing. So Enron is over, literally, given the colorful, stuff the right word, evil. I think we need to say evil, cast of characters here. Everything goes just about as you could predict. The Justice Department begins a criminal investigation. Just about everybody except skilling starts running left and right, trying to copy a plea deal.

2:31:18It is worth before getting into the sentencing and trials like what is bankruptcy and what happens in their bankruptcy proceedings. So I decided this was the time to learn the difference between chapter 7 and chapter 11 bankruptcy because I never actually thought about it before. It's pretty interesting. Both of them are options that you have when a business can no longer pay its creditors. Chapter 7 is when you just want to liquidate.

2:31:40cease operations. You turn it over to a trustee and say, we are done forever. Chapter 11 is this like interesting temporary thing where you are saying we would like to reorganize the debtor stays in control. So by debtor, it's like corporation, the company that owes the money to all the creditors stays in control and the court, a judge and the debtor basically need to come up with a reorganization plan and the gree on that. And then there's execution of the plan.

2:32:09And I think the creditors, the people who the company owes money to, also have to agree. So what happens is John Ray gets brought in as the chief administrative officer who is currently serving the same role over at FTX and he comes in to basically be the administrator while it's in chapter 11 to come up with a deal. Interestingly enough, there was actually a person who was hired before him, Stephen Cooper, And he came up with a plan and got everyone together in the court to generate 17 cents on the dollar. Well, Cooper worked for a consulting firm that managed to get 60 million out before the board realized that he was not the most economical choice for the creditors. So they fired him and brought in Ray, who I think was like a board member. They kind of redo the board during chapter 11 also.

2:33:03And Ray came in and he basically figured out a way to get twice as much out to creditors. So creditors love John Ray. He was able to get 13 billion out to creditors, which is about 36 cents on the dollar much better than the 17 cents that Stephen Cooper that his plan called for. But I was reading an article in 2007. It had still not yet been fully sorted out by 2007. So six years afterwards. Ah, yes. So I think what you're referring to.

2:33:31with the cents on the dollar is dollars to the creditors to Enron's debt holders. Not to equity holders, not to people who held the stock. Correct. Oh yeah, equity holders are wiped. Oh hang on, we gotta get to the end of the episode. All right, all right. Remember the 61 cents a share. So one thing though that you did just jog my memory on that we missed in the notes. I swear it wasn't intentional, but we will.

2:33:56We don't want to bury it too far in the footnotes, like in Ron here. I do have an obligation to bring up. You mentioned the board, and that reminded me. We got a little bit of a knock against HBS and Harvard Business School earlier with skilling and being such an illustrious alumni here. We would be remiss. I would be remiss if I didn't also knock my own Business School alma mater. The Stanford Business School, you're coming about the board. Reminded me, do you know who?

2:34:24folks listening, I'm sure very, very few of you know this, but the chair of the audit committee of Enron's board during all the years that all this was going on was the dean of Stanford Business School, who was an accounting professor who kind of hard to argue that he shouldn't have known better, kind of hard to argue. Little aside here, do you know what John Ray did before coming into Enron?

2:34:52It's been an important focus of two episodes on acquired. Ooh, I would guess Blockbuster, but that can't be right, because they hadn't gone bankrupt yet. Yeah, it's not Blockbuster. I'll give you another hint. After bankruptcy, after John Ray restructured, and it came out of chapter 11, it was sold to Berkshire Hathaway. Shoot, I should know, but I don't. Fruit of the loom. Fruit of the loom. Yes, Brooks. Yes. So John Ray sort of unexpected acquired superhero.

2:35:21Wow. That's awesome. We gotta have him on the show. He's a little busy right now. He is a little busy, charging $1,400 an hour for his services. Wow. Worth it if he can get a good outcome for the creditors. Yep. So, with a path from 61 cents a share. Yeah. Well, the Justice Department opens up a case. Everybody starts trying to cut plea deals. One of the NRUN senior executives who we haven't talked about on this episode, Cliff Baxter, sadly commits suicide.

2:35:49Really sad. He actually had left Enron a good bit before this sometime in the last year, but felt so depressed and responsible. And I think his note was about not being able to spend time with any of the people that were a part of his community after losing so much for so many people. Totally. Kenlay and skilling, even though skillings, you know, quit months before, like, obviously he's implicated in all this. They lawyer up and fight.

2:36:17which practically they have to because like we said, everybody else starts trying to cut plea deals. Why would the feds cut plea deals with people? It's because they want to get the people at the top and get them to testify against them. So lay in skilling no kind of there's no way out for them. That's how you get a mob boss. It's like the classic playbook. Totally. So I think copper, Michael Copper, I think is the first person to cut a deal. He rats out fast out and testifies against him.

2:36:44fast out initially also tries to fight and lawyer up Lake lay and skilling but the feds ultimately end up getting him to cave when they bust his wife Leah for tax evasion for everything that she was involved in oh yeah also she also worked at the company she was an assistant treasurer and run to fast out ends up doing six years in prison Leah does one year and we should say fast out basically he admitted fault and then would double down on it anytime he's asked for the rest of time in prison, out of prison. He's like, oh yeah, what we do is illegal. What we do is completely wrong. I feel terrible for the people. You can actually hire a fastout as a speaker now to come and talk about corporate responsibility and corporate culture, which is nuts. We'll include a link in the show notes to book him if you would like to have him at your event. News eventually comes out through all of this about lays close ties with the Bush family and everybody in the bush.

2:37:41political cabinet in the White House. So President Bush, this is George W. Bush son at this point. He calls a press conference and claims in this press conference that like, Hey, I barely know this guy. You know, he, you know, he was like, he donated to some of my campaigns, but I don't, I can't really remember his name. He would earlier in the press refer to him as Kenny Boy, my friend. Obviously, that was completely wrong.

2:38:07The Bush family was very close, so close in fact that when W was inaugurated president, George HW and Barbara Bush traveled from Houston to Washington for the inauguration with lay on the Enron corporate jet. What? Really? Nobody comes out looking good here. We talked about how Arthur Anderson, they're dead, they're over. And then the culmination, you know, politically and in terms of kind of the impact on the economy and the markets from all this is pretty shockingly quickly. I didn't realize how fast this happened. July 30th, 2002. So just a, you know, what's that six plus months after the Enron bankruptcy? President Bush signs into law the Sarbanes Act.

2:39:04That was pushed very quickly and almost unanimously through both houses of Congress. I just looked this up. It's crazy. It was approved in the House for 23 in favor, three opposed aid abstaining, and the Senate was 99 to one. Sarbanes, Oxley, like everyone lined up for this. Could you imagine anything today getting those kind of votes?

2:39:25Yeah, and lots of people can be mad about Sarbanes Oxley because it makes IPO-ing and being a public company really hard and so that actually kicked off stay private longer or you could argue that it was a huge impact in the early 2010s of companies staying private forever. So what was in Sarbanes Oxley is pretty interesting. It's the kitchen sink. It is like what did Enron do wrong and they just piece by piece went and figured out a way to put a lid on the cookie jar. So the biggest thing is top management, the CEO has to certify the accuracy of financial information. Yep, both the CEO and the CFO. Yep. So like huge personal responsibility, more severe penalties for fraud, new restrictions around tampering with or destroying evidence. They make that a felony. They also require outside auditors to be more independent. So every tax firm has to spin off their consulting practice. You can no longer house both under the same house.

2:40:22They increase the required disclosures to be a public company, including you have to disclose all your off balance sheet entities. And so there's a very interesting question I think around Sarbaine's Oxley is like, did it work? We just went through another bull run. And so the question after Sarbaine's Oxley came out is really around, we won't know if this works or not until the next market craziness. And so I think there's this pretty interesting thing around the result of Sarbaine's Oxley being stay private longer that It's much more likely that fraud now happens in the private market than the public market, and that is basically what we saw with Theranos with FTX. So much in crypto. Yeah, super, super interesting. Did you see this in the research I found this from Googling? One of the provisions of Serbian's actually was actually used in prosecuting capital writers for the January 6 riots. Yep. Really interesting. And what clause was that? That was... Oh, it was that you can't...

2:41:20Imped an official proceeding. And that's the like Arthur Anderson can't destroy evidence thing. They were basically like the rioters are impeding an official vote counting proceeding. Yeah, something like that. But yeah, it was back in the news recently fascinating. So as with all huge mega scandal trials like this.

2:41:39Like we said, all the underlings, even all the way up to FSDO cop plea deals, the actual case that the government wants is to go against lay and skilling, go against the top. Yes, every single one of them, all the way down, cut plea deals. So Ken Rice, who led broadband, did the plea deal, got a 27-month sentence, Rex Shelby was charged with fraud, conspiracy, money laundering. I think the deal was if you plead guilty to one count of insider trading, you get two years of probation. There was a handful of those like wrist slap ones to get can lay in skilling. Yeah, the quid pro quo on on the deals were all testify against lay in skilling and fast out you know with six years given all that he did that was very light. It feels weird to sort of judge whether a criminal penalty is harsh or not like acquired doesn't quite feel like the right forum for that because it's I don't know without me saying whether I think this is too harsh or not harsh enough because I'm not well just like this is not financial advice we are also not lawyers right.

2:42:35But it's interesting to me that six years is an amount of time for which you can kind of go back to your life afterwards. If you think back to what you were doing six years ago, it's sort of the same chapter of life. If you have young kids, they're older, but they're still not out of the house. If you were mid-career, you come out, you're still mid-career. You were in jail for six years, so that's going to mess with your career. But it's different than a 25-year sentence or something like that where you're an entirely different human at an entirely different phase of the human existence when you come out. So it takes a very long time for the government to build up all their case against lay and skilling. It's not until 2005 that it finally comes to a trial and then the trial takes a year and a half to finish. So in May 2006, which is interesting, both conspiracy of fools and smartest guys in the room came out before the trials even started.

2:43:30I think they felt like we just got to publish even though the story's not over. Yep. And the movie did too. That's right. The movie did too. So May 2006, a jury finally convicts skilling of 19 out of 28 counts of wire fraud and securities fraud and lay gets convicted on six counts of securities fraud. A short while later on July 5th, 2006, before the sentencing happens, Lay is found dead at his vacation home in Colorado of a massive heart attack. It's interesting. I looked around. I never found any speculation on that. There's lots of speculation. The cover of the New York Post had some joke about, like, as a photograph of Ken Lay's casket, and it was like, check if he's in there. Yeah, right. I think there's a website, like, kenlaylives.com or dot org or something that popped up. There's a lot of... Oh, interesting, whether you actually died or not. I always think whether it was suicide or...

2:44:27Or he actually had a hard attack or, you know, was a... Who does? Yep. Anyway, he's dead. The verdict against him is vacated. Which is crazy. Not only did he not get sentenced, it means that whatever money he had did not get seized. Oh, interesting. And he made potentially hundreds of millions of dollars. Oh, there's no way he died of natural causes then. Yeah. I think him not getting sentenced, saved. His wife and family? Yeah. Yeah. Speculation. And I'd welcome any...

2:44:57I don't know anything there. I'd welcome any thoughts people have. I tried to find it and it was hard to find information, but in particular, because it's just hard to figure out through all the stock sales over the years, plus all the borrowing that he did, what his personal balance sheet would have looked like at this point in his life anyway. Well, and here's the crazy thing too, like, despite all of this, despite all of this, when he dies, guess who comes to his funeral? George W. Bush. Not W, but HW. HW. Wow, because he was closer with HW. Yeah.

2:45:27unfrieking believable. The preacher at the funeral, I mean, there's a lot of people who were, he's a very God-fearing man who were a part of his community, a part of his church, and felt very strongly that like this is a good person, and everyone who's coming after him is wrong. Get this. Here's some excerpts from the obituary, published in the Houston Chronicle when he dies. Quote, can spent 64 years on earth doing God's work, helping others with love.

2:45:56Ken's life exemplified Galatians 5.22, but the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. It sounds like the list of values Enron had in the lobby. Yeah, totally. Can you believe that? That's not like what was printed in the Church Memorial. That was published in the Houston Chronicle. The ironic thing about the God's work, quote, is Jeff Skilling.

2:46:25Said about two years before and Ron's collapse that he felt had Ron was doing God's work. Yeah, right. He also throughout I mean, I have like a whole list of skilling quotes here. The one says what's the difference between California and the Titanic at least when the Titanic went down the lights were on the preamble to that if you watch the quote where he says it. I can't remember what the venue is.

2:46:49He even says in the preamble, he's like, I probably shouldn't say this, but he's the CEO of the sixth, seventh largest company in the world. And he's saying this stuff like, oh my God, this person. So on October 23rd, 2006, scaling his sentence to 24 years in prison, shocked him was only 24. He appeals and get this. So he's fighting to the better end. The appeal ends up going all the way up to the US Supreme Court where I don't know what the right legal term is, but they end up sending it back down to a lower court for resentencing to redo the sensing. The sentence gets reduced to 14 years, skilling ends up serving 12 in total and is released from federal custody in February 2019. So he is back out there on the streets, apparently trying to do deals it was reported, but I don't think very successfully. And in 2020,

2:47:49Jeff Skilling founded a new energy trading company based in Texas called Veld LLC. Rumored to be working on the venture with Lupai. No, I didn't see that. Oh, that's amazing. Oh my God. Unbelievable. Listen, as we already cut some Lupai stuff from this episode, because I was just like, now we can't talk about this guy anymore, but that we got to leave it. Unbelievable.

2:48:18the website was up and now it's down and no one's returned and he pressed requests for comments on it. And the rumors were like two, two and a half years ago at this point. So maybe it actually didn't end up happening. Who knows? Well, Lou still got some money because he did settle with the government for I think $31 million, but he still had plenty of other cash to live on though. Two fun little code of moments before we wrap up the story, just put a bow on things fully before we move into analysis.

2:48:48One, we've talked about Omaha, we've talked about Berkshire Hathaway a lot on this episode. But until this moment, there has been no connection. Warren Buffett, Charlie Munger, Berkshire Hathaway, zero involvement with any of Enron or any of Enron's predecessor companies. However, if you remember from the Dinergy Aborted Transaction, the assets that secured the one and a half billion dollars, or the pipelines. The original, inter-north, Omaha based company, pipeline. Well, when the deal falls apart, and then Ron Burns through the cash, the energy seizes the pipelines. They operate them for like a short while, but like we don't really want these. We should sell these. I don't know where this is going, but this. You know exactly where this is going. Exactly the type of thing that Berkshire should pick up.

2:49:45Who ends up buying the pipelines, but Berkshire Hathaway energy? Wow. All comes full circle and the company comes home to Omaha to Warren Buffett's warm embrace. It could not be more perfect. It could not be more perfect. So in the end, I guess Inter North did have the last laugh. The great city of Omaha wins in the end.

2:50:13Crazy. Okay, one more. I kept harping on the 61 cents earlier and it took, you know, Ben, you read the article that is of 2007. Things were still going on with the carcass of Enron. Well, let me tell you what happens in September of 2008, of all times, September of 2008, the post bankruptcy shell corporation of Enron. Finally, finishes, they'd already disposed of all the assets sold them off. They finally finished settling all the lawsuits that were involved. That it was pursuing. It was pursuing various lawsuits of other parties involved to try and recover some funds for equity shareholders who lost all their money. 99% sure it was equity shareholders at this point in time because I think the creditors had already settled years before. Well, the biggest opportunity to recover dollars for shareholders

2:51:10They determined, over the years, was to sue the banks that participated in all the shenanigans with Enron. And of course, banks have a lot of money. Well, in September 2008, the whole suite of settlements with a whole variety of banks, GP Morgan, City Group, various others, come in for a total of 7.2 billion.

2:51:35dollars coming into this rotting carcass of Enron, which results in a distribution of $6.79 to every common shareholder. What? So, if you had bought Enron equity in those days between the collapsing of the Dinergy merger and the bankruptcy, if you had bought for 61 cents, oh my God. You would have had over a 10x return if you were willing to hang on for seven years.

2:52:02David Rosenthal, you've outdone yourself. Oh my god. You imagine that in 2001, 2002. You know we should go in and buy some Anron stock. I think we should find a way to buy some FTX equity right now. Oh my god. It's kind of incredible that there was enough to pay off any equity holders that it wouldn't all just go to creditors. So wait, how is it that any remaining dollars that could go to anyone wouldn't have just gone to creditors? I don't know for sure, but I...

2:52:32suspect what happened was the bankruptcy had been exited. I don't know for sure, but I'm speculating bankruptcy had been exited and the creditors had said like, okay, we're good. Right. We've got all we think we're going to get. We've got all we think we're going to get the cookie jars closed. There's so many cookie jars. The piggy bank is empty. Yeah, not a cookie jar, piggy bank. Isn't that unbelievable? A 10x investment to literally buy the dip in and run?

2:53:01Oh, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow. Crazy. And that it ends up back in Omaha with Berkshire Hathaway, like you just saw, so good. All right, listeners. Now is a great time to talk about one of our favorite companies, Statsig. Yes, there is a reason why the best product teams rely on Statsig, whether they are iterating on their core product features or shipping AI-powered experiences at scale. Yep. In the...

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2:54:10All right, so I have two little sort of quotas to before we get into analysis. Oh, this is a four-cota episode. Just two people, so I think it's interesting. One is one of the best traders from Enron. I meant that in the very best possible way. Yes. John Arnold went on to start the firm Centaurus, which is one of the highest performing hedge funds ever. So that sort of like, I don't know that it's necessarily like, we went on Doug.

2:54:36solve world peace or anything, but like a person went on to build something successful after Enron, which is worth calling out. Yeah, I had no idea about this person. I didn't know about this fund. Apparently he was like a super, super young Hacha trader at Enron. Yeah, he's still only in his 40s today. Yeah, he got the largest cash bonus that Enron ever gave to anybody who wasn't a senior executive of I think $8 million. Wow.

2:55:03shortly before the blow up. He was never accused of any wrongdoing. He was, you know, a trader and supposedly it was there. Everything he did was above board. But then I think he took that money, used it as the seed money to start the firm and then it ended up becoming one of the most successful funds of the past 20 years. Wow. Speaking of a seed to sort of start a firm, we didn't talk a lot in this episode about Richard Kinder. And we didn't because while he was As hard-driving as the rest of the Enron execs, he was probably the most ethical and the most honest about what really provided value to customers. Well, he was a pipeline guy, right? He was a pipeline guy, yeah. A lot of people, I think, including himself thought, he was in line to be the CEO. And he was sort of Ken Lay's right-hand man for a while. Upon his exit, when he's finally decided, like, the direction this is going is really just not for me. This is going in a very skilling direction.

2:55:58There was sort of a sweetheart deal done for him to get a set of assets that he would use to be the sort of foundation for what would become Kinder Morgan. It was an energy pipeline. And today, Kinder Morgan is a $40 billion company and Kinder is a billionaire. He's worth like $8 billion. You know, he's really good at running and managing a pipeline business. And when he saw that that wasn't the focus at NRON anymore, got out and started his own pipeline business.

2:56:26And David, do you know what other asset was bought from Enron to become someone else's something business? Well, I know UBS, where my first job was out of college, bought the trading assets out of Enron. Oh, did they? Yeah, and I think they only lasted like six months or a year, and then it all kind of disintegrated.

2:56:47But obviously that's not what you're talking about. No. GE bought the wind business from NRON. And I believe even today is sort of the cornerstone of their wind energy business. Interesting. And then the last thing is I'm pretty sure Chevron bought the building. Yes, I think that's one of the big oil companies bought the building. All right, so let's dive into analysis. Do you want to start with power? Yes. Power. This will be an interesting one.

2:57:15Okay, so this is normally where we talk about what gives a company the ability to be more profitable than their closest competitor and it feels silly to even ask the question on this episode because this episode makes so clear the difference between a corporation and a business and I always thought about this on the other side of the spectrum like well a startup is a company, but it's not a business yet It's not a machine that you can put money into and it burns capital. There's not a business group of people working on a project, but like a seed stage startup is not a business. At some point you look at an Apple company can become both a company and a business. The company owns the business. The business operates. The company is the structure around it. And Enron makes so clear that even long after you're a startup, it is possible to have all the window dressing around a business but not a business itself.

2:58:11They are undoubtedly a company, a corporation, lots of structure, lots of people, lots of activities, lots of reporting. But what is the actual business inside of Enron? And of course, this is what every reporter was trying to figure out as the stock was falling. The question is, if you strip away all the terrible structure and you strip away all the self-dealing and you strip away all the overvalued stock, where are the biggest pieces inside the company that are real businesses, generate real value for customers and the ability to capture some of that value by the company. I suspect the trading business was pretty profitable or had the capability to be pretty profitable. I've thought about this a little bit and we talked about it earlier part of the episode where when they have first lay at his original companies and then skilling and lay together,

2:59:06with creating the energy derivatives market. I think there's value to doing that and had the company stop there and just been a trading participant in the energy derivatives market. Yes, there would have been value there. I think they probably would have ended up like one of the Wall Street banks where look, some banks are stronger than others. The league tables change. It's kind of a commodity. Nobody dominates the industry. There's no monopoly bank, but There's an oligopoly, and they all do pretty well. I think Enron probably would have ended up like that in the trading business. I don't know that there's any real specific power in the way that Hamilton talks about it where you can literally earn better returns than your competitors, but I think they would have been part of that oligopical mix, so to speak. And the argument that they could have actually done better is...

2:59:58I think the end run online was a real way that they could have gotten real market power. I'm trying to think what that is. It's probably cornered resource. They would have had better access to information about the market than anyone else. It's almost like the sort of Citadel's business. Yes, Citadel's or FTX and Alameda right before it all went wrong. But Citadel is a good example. Yeah, that they would have the...

3:00:23most real-time market information at a given point, and there's an open question of like would people have in the long run continue to trade with them as both the exchange and the primary counterparty or the exclusive counterparty, they may have had to over time pick whether they want to be a trading partner or own the exchange itself to have that access to information, but that would be a way that they could have sort of generated alpha on top of the rest of their competitors that they could have been more profitable than other people who are offering energy trading marketplaces or other derivatives marketplaces. You also have to imagine like the pipeline business was probably profitable. That's interesting because that's just a pure monopoly. Yeah, that's a cordon resource for sure. Yeah, you don't build two pipelines between two locations. It just doesn't make a lot of sense.

3:01:10big waste of resources. It's like a highway. You collect the toll on the highway because that's the highway. So in that case, they're sort of competing against other forms of powering the location that that pipeline dumps out into. So it's the Midwest using coal instead of using this natural gas. So there isn't like a direct competitor to their pipeline business in all likelihood. But by their very physical and geographic nature, pipelines are limited markets. Yes.

3:01:40You may have a monopoly over the market you're in, but your market is limited to the physical geographic, you know, reaches of the pipeline. Right. It's a pretty interesting question because when you analyze and run through, and even if you had tried to analyze and run in 99 through a Hamilton Helmer lens, you probably would have had a hard time coming up with power, which should have led you to the answer that this thing is at least overvalued. Some things going on here. Yeah.

3:02:10Yeah. You know, they don't have a Google on their hands where it's like this just cash gusher that is unbelievably defensible, high margin, durable. It's almost like the company had a lot of things going for it. They had the charisma and the money raising ability and they were making a lot of money for a lot of people. So everyone was incented. But the business didn't have a lot of things going for it. I think you put it so well a minute ago of like This story illustrates the difference between a company and a business. The company did really, really, really great for a really long time. The business other than the underlying pipeline and then maybe the trading operations. But the business did not exist at the scale of the company for many years. It's fascinating. Totally fascinating. Playbook.

3:03:02Well, if you want to cook your books, here are three easy steps to success. That is unfortunately the playbook. The question is probably how did Enron manage to accomplish what they accomplished? Because no doubt they accomplished something that is hard to do. I think that's actually an interesting framing is they managed to achieve something that to date no other humans had been able to do, which is convince the world that something with very little enterprise value actually had a huge amount of enterprise value. And show it in accounting statements. In many, many cases, accounting statements that were legal. There's lots of things that they did that were illegal that they got prosecuted for. But there's a lot of things they did that were surprisingly legal. These 3% partnerships and a lot of that stuff. I don't know, I'm conflicted about this. On the one hand, I'm sort of allowed to

3:03:57promote anything from Andy Fastow, just given the story we just told. On the other hand, he did his time, he served descendants, he's remorseful and making amends. But I think if you look at what's been reported about what he says publicly and what he says in all of his speaking engagements that he does, this is his message, right? Of like, yeah, there was like illegal stuff that happened, but most of what happened, most of the con that happened was through legal means, and we were just like really, really good at finding and exploiting legal means through which to perpetrate fraud. And that's wrong. Right. Isn't that crazy? Right. Yeah. So, okay. A bunch of playbook items, using off-balance sheet partnerships to conceal billions of losses and lots of debt to my knowledge, Sarbanes Oxley makes this impossible now.

3:04:50The next one I had is more of an observation. And it's something that I was talking about last time I was in San Francisco and we got together with our friends at Vouch. I was talking with one of the Vouch co-founders about this. The idea of correlated risk and of course it's huge in their business since they're in the insurance business. And it was funny because this was before FTX happened. We were sort of talking about the fact that a lot of the times people assume when they have like three or four layers of coverage, they're like, well, I'm covered.

3:05:18I'm really secure because there's a lot of nets below me, but you have to be really good at figuring out, well, are there actually four layers or is that one layer that looks like four? Because oftentimes when something starts to tank, everything around it starts to tank, too. And so when you tie everything to this share price and you tie everything to collateralizing it with your own stock, or in the FTX case, if you collateralize against the FTT token, which is very, very correlated to your company's enterprise value and future prospects. You end up in this correlated risk territory. And I think so many times we're bad at seeing or don't want to see correlated risk when everything is going up. And we view things as having sort of more protection, more safety net, more separation than they do. But when you do have a bunch of risks that are all correlated together, they fall apart so fast.

3:06:16They unwind in a big hurry. Yeah, totally agree. I have a corollary playbook theme for me coming out of this episode to that correlated risk playbook theme. What's that? Which I was been thinking about through doing the research. I've kind of always had this as like a part of my financial philosophy, but then like pull FTX thing and everything is maybe think about it even more. For me, not investment advice and lots of very reasonable smart people make different decisions.

3:06:44But there's actually some academic literature out there about this. I've decided the correct amount of financial leverage to have on financial assets is zero. The optimal amount of leverage is zero. So you don't want to carry a mortgage if it were up to you. Well, if you mortgage is differently because it's secured. Because it's secured by physical property. Which can change in value the same way that stock can change in value. Totally. So that is definitely a contradiction to the philosophy. I do have a mortgage.

3:07:12when it comes to leverage in a other than residential mortgage, leverage in a financial sense, like trading with leverage specifically, you're always taking a very large risk. Even if you think the risk is very small, once you start trading with leverage, you invert the magical property of venture capital, which is the most you can lose is your money and the most you can make is infinite. Once you start using leverage, that flips. That is how you get game over. Or at least it equalizes.

3:07:42At least it equalizes, yeah. Or there's the like black swan idea that most of the worst things to ever happen never happened before. So they're impossible to predict. I mean, I often think about the fact that like even if you correctly timed it coming out of the oil crises to put a bunch of money in the stock market and even if you were able to ride the dot coms all the way up and even if you were managed to sell before barch of 2000 and then there was a big crash and you decided to put money back in you would have completely gotten washed out.

3:08:11by 9-11, like you would not have forecasted the intense macroeconomic change that that would have brought because there was no ability to predict it. And so there's like so many factors to these things. I mean, this is my like, lecture to myself on macro forecasting of there's the like, you have to be right twice when you're timing the market, when you're coming in and when you're coming out, but often there's like a third thing that no one could ever predict that you also have to be right about. Oh, pandemic. Yeah. Well, There's a point that I made earlier. I think it's worth trying to put in tighter words, which is Enron's fatal flaw is that they borrowed from the future until there was no future left to borrow from. They squeezed everything by doing Mark to Market Accounting out of the next 20 years in any given deal that they did. And then they got into a bunch of markets and they recognized all the potential upside

3:09:09from every deal and every single one of those markets around the world in every category two day. And so what that leads to is shouldn't that be like one of the most valuable companies in the world if you're going to recognize across geographies across a bunch of markets across the next 20 years all the upside of that as revenue today like and then you apply some DCF model to that. Well, yeah, that's why they were the seventh most valuable company in the world because on paper.

3:09:37That's what they were doing. And so what you're basically doing is you're sort of double DCFing the value, which it took me a while to figure out like what's going on here. But when you're discounting the future cash flows of something to the present and then recognize in the value today, they were doing that first as revenue, but then when people were trying to apply a multiple to the business, they were doing another, let's look at the next 20 plus years of this business exercise. Again, On top of it, so it was like an n squared situation. Well, then you throw the special representatives into the mix where they're recognizing revenue on the way out too. Yeah. They were triple in multiplying it. It's crazy. And so it's like an exercise of the most path dependent spreadsheet of all time that there was like zero resiliency in the price of the business because it contemplated the assumptions that were baked into the price were that everything would go right.

3:10:35in every situation and every asset, every deal that they did would be the most valuable it could possibly be. And that they would continue to be able to do this number of deals in more geographies and more markets for the next 20 years. And I think pretty quickly you actually run out of value to be created in the world. At some point you're like, you can't have a valuation that big because there's not that much value to be created. And I don't think they quite bumped up against that.

3:11:02That's sort of the biggest constraint that you hit when you're doing goofy spreadsheeting this way. And then, of course, there was accounting. There's always fraud on top of it, so that was going to kill the whole thing. But assuming that that wasn't the case and that what's the actual issue with market to market accounting in the situations they were doing, market to market accounting, and then applying a more than sector multiple on the business, that is the big issue. Yep. Okay, I got one more. Yeah.

3:11:28which is in many ways one of the most obvious smack you in the head, playbook themes from this episode, which is the old Charlie Munger quote, show me the incentives. I'll show you the behavior. Like, this is such a clear illustration of incentives and behavior. We could say a bunch of trade obvious things about it, but what I wanted to talk about for a second here, it's interesting in thinking about assigning blame and intent here, and like degrees of maliciousness.

3:11:57In retrospect now, having read conspiracy of fools, I really, really liked it was a great book, incredibly well researched, you know, 660 pages of just like very detailed, very well written thriller style, great book, highly recommend it. My biggest criticism of it though is that it makes fast out out to be the primary villain. No doubt he was a huge villain.

3:12:26Incredibly unethical and on the surface the worst of the bunch. He was helping Enron perpetuate this incredible fraud and he was directly embezzling and stealing money through all of the crazy partnerships and like the copper deals and like all that stuff like that's really bad and I can wall make some out as such to be the primary villain and It's not that he goes easy on lay and skilling. They come out looking bad too, but in many ways not as bad as fast-down But then I was thinking about it. I don't know if it was in the movie, smartest guys in the room, but Sharon Watkins, the whistleblower, she gets asked at one point, what do you think of this? It might have been later. This might have been an interview later. Do you think fast out was really the worst person here? And she was like, no, it's not just that fast out was bad. Everybody was complicit. And she didn't say this explicitly, but I thought about it. And I was like, fast out.

3:13:23stole about 40 to 60 million out of and run directly, right? And Lane's killing didn't do that. But they made hundreds of millions of dollars on the equity. They didn't need to steal the money. Fastout was doing it without board approval. Those guys were doing it with board approval. With board approval. They made more from the fraud. They were more incentivized in perpetuating the music going. Then Fastout was to like directly steal, right? So in my mind, that actually makes them worse.

3:13:52Like I said, it's not like I still feel a little bit icky about promoting what FASTOW is saying now, but I think my conclusion at the end of this is lay in skilling truly worth the worst and the government was right to cut plea deals with everybody else to really go after them. I mean, in a skilling-like way, you just laid that out in a logical path that's hard to argue with. Maybe I'm the worst then. I think I'm not gonna argue with that. It's an interesting line of thinking. What was your impression? I didn't read the smartest guys in the room book. How does that paint the situation? There's nothing conflicting in the smartest guys in the room. I think this book definitely makes killing out to be the bad guy and Ken lay out to be kind of out to lunch. And he's also kind of a sympathetic figure for the first half of his career because he's like this PhD economist, civil servant, does all the right things. Whereas killing nobody.

3:14:49thinks that a management consultant is doing God's work. And so, like, skilling is this perfectly formed character of, like, HBS, gone McKinsey, gone energy executive, gone fraudster, where it's like, it is the most classic path of corporate villain you can imagine. And I think that's the case that the book makes too.

3:15:12And all this is so narrative-driven. We're sitting here, we've never met any of these people. We've read books about them, we've read, I don't know, 30 or 40 articles, listened to some podcasts, talked to some people who were around the energy industry around this kind of time. But we've never met any of these people, and we are telling a story of a story. And it is worth saying, especially now that we're doing some character assassinations, which normally we try not to do unacquired. We are so far from the primary source here.

3:15:40that this is like some kind of weird sport pontification that I think we should stop. I totally agree with you and I'm glad we don't do this on acquired normally because this is not what the show is about. But I think it's okay in this case we're talking about N-Run here. Yeah. And we're trying to contextualize everything that's going on specifically with FTX but in what feels like a lot of increase in fraudulent activity recently. Yep.

3:16:04Actually, speaking of FTX, did you know if FTX is 50 largest creditors summed to 3.1 billion? Let's contextualize the numbers. That's what we know today. These numbers are changing in real time. The whole was probably something about 10 billion. The equity investors are probably wiped out to the tune of two-ish billion, at least that's the right order of magnitude. And like, Enron left behind a trillion dollars of claims.

3:16:27to 30,000 creditors. City Group alone had five billion in claims. They're one of five or six big investment banks that work with them. Yep, there were a million and a half shareholders. I think people forget the Enron scale. FTX is really bad. This is like a terrible bunch of illegal stuff that happened, unethical stuff that happened, but the scale of Enron, I think because it happened 20 years ago, people sort of forget how big it was.

3:16:55I think also on that point on a reflective note, studying the Enron history, it's crazy seeing the length of time that it took for everything to come out and for everything to be resolved. So that's a good reminder for now and for FTX. We're not even in any one yet of figuring out what happened here. It was years and years before all this stuff came out in the Enron case. Yep, so true.

3:17:22I have one more observation to make and then I'm curious to talk to Sarbanes Oxley with you. So the last observation, I first had it reading the book and then I tried to search for any counter examples and a bunch of articles and couldn't find any. I don't think there's a single interaction between Enron and a human, like mostly employees, where the human didn't make out versus the company like a bandit. Every single time there was any sort of confrontation and this is probably like the legacy of Kendra. This is his non-confrontational thing.

3:17:51every single person that walked away from and Ron walked away with some kind of incredible golden parachute or amazing sweetheart deal on an asset that they bought from the company or signed this paper and stay quiet and here's a bunch of money or here's a bunch of stock and every person just pulled one over on the company and its shareholders.

3:18:10over and over and over again. And I don't think the company ever had a hard line with anyone. I mean, you look at the person we didn't even talk about is Rebecca Mark, who ran all the international stuff, who ran azurex, the international water project that both failed, but was also never set up to succeed. So it's hard to really blame her. She lost billions of dollars, though, billions. Yep. And she sold about 83 million dollars of stock.

3:18:36She actually got out early enough and she was sort of cast out by the male executives at the top in a way where she was actually never accused of any wrongdoing and never really a part of the prosecution of any of these things. But you know, she was a part of the gang of people who were well, at least she massively benefited to the tune of $83 million from something that only ever hurt shareholders. Like no one was sitting around creating any shareholder value. And so every deal cut with every employee ever who was leaving or staying just bribed them all. Yeah. All right, let's talk Sarbanes Oxley. So did it work or did it just force fraudsters and malfeasance into the private markets? malfeasance to exist in the private markets or like international pseudo domestic markets wherever crypto exists. Because like crypto impacts the US even for companies that aren't domiciled here. So we've done a lot of things to like

3:19:32push companies, either away from going public or away from doing business in the country, still totally affects Americans and Canadian teachers. FTX being prime example there. Yeah. This isn't a direct answer to your question. But one thing that I thought about through this whole process about Sarbanes actually and the consequence of stay private longer and whatnot, no doubt Sarbanes actually raised the cost and complexity of being a public company, no doubt.

3:20:02I think though probably not as much as the stay private longer proponents were saying. And this might be related to what you're saying. I suspect, again, to the incentives and behaviors. A lot of the companies that stayed private longer weren't doing so for the stated reason that it was too hard and too unrest to be a public company, but they were doing it because there was too much benefit and money to be made by staying private. Whether that was secondary sales, whether that was being able to prop up your company, better than your business was performing, just the general opacity that the private market's afforded. Even thinking about companies like Uber, the king, the granddaddy of all of the state private longer. Yeah. I think that's fair. I also think...

3:20:57What else was Congress going to do? I mean, it's not like they can go create Baja Manian laws. They can make it harder to invest in offshore entities, but I'm not sure that that's necessarily good. That might be a baby bathwater situation. You also can make it harder to be a private company, but we don't want that either. We want to encourage new business creation. We want to encourage a period before companies go public where they can have looser relationships with their private shareholders and communicate information in a less standard way because they're tiny companies. Like, I think that makes a lot of sense. There's always a signal noise thing where you want to make sure that your legislation is directed at quashing only the signal that you want without having the blast radius, which I think with those statements, Sarbians actually probably has accomplished its goals pretty well, which is protect.

3:21:47The broader American public and investing public shareholders in public companies from fraud Yep totally agree All right, well, we have this section that we've done in the past called value creation and value capture Normally we talk about do they create a lot of value and if so do they capture a lot of it the classic example is Google creates a lot of value and captures a lot of it and Wikipedia creates tons of value captures very little of it so where does and Ron fall into this well They managed to create very little value and they captured far more value than they created by an order of 100 to 1000. So it's probably the first time that we've ever on this show seen someone capture more value than they created. Yeah, gosh. By a lot. By a lot. Pretty fascinating. I don't know enough about the energy industry to say whether the innovations in

3:22:43financialization, securitization, creating energy derivatives, whether the existence of all that, and Enron and its principles being highly responsible for creating them, whether that generated enough value to offset the massive value destruction of Enron the company. Maybe, I just, I'm not equipped to say. I don't know. That actually is how I want to close the episode instead of grading, because what are we going to do? Get an F.

3:23:09And the other thing that we've done recently is talk about sort of like forward looking narratives, but that doesn't exist here either. I think an interesting way to close is by describing what were the activities that they did that were like a legitimate, interesting business value creative for customers and what was the illegitimate stuff they did. And I think it kind of does end at like pipelines were good for customers and the creation of a market. And let's be generous both the market to buy natural gas at a real-time price and also the ability to use a derivatives market to hedge those prices so businesses could do forecasting. I think that's probably like where the line ends on good for the world things and then once you get into. What about that blockbuster video on demand? I think as soon as the business became the derivatives trading as an end rather than as like a means of hedging.

3:24:03or as a means of cash flow stabilization and price predictability, I think that's sort of where basically everything after that was bad. No argument for me there makes sense to me. All right. Well, I know we're four hours in, but you want to do some carve outs? Yeah. We haven't done carve outs in a while. We haven't. We had something lined up for the Qualcomm episode, but we literally got yanked off stage. We got off stage two hours, 29 minutes and 30 seconds into the, into the up to half hour slot that we had.

3:24:30Okay, so I have one that I was prepared to give because it's great, but I have a one that's too related to this episode to not do. Oh, I'm in the same boat. I think we can each do too. You know, why not? So the one that's related to this episode is something that I unfortunately never got a chance to see because it has been over for eight years, but there was a limited run Broadway play called Enron the Musical. And we will put a link in the show notes to the trailer.

3:24:56for Enron the Musical, it is spectacular. Oh my God. There is a moment where there's someone dancing with literal raptors. There is like projections of stock market tickers and traders. The whole thing is, it's an exaggeration. Oh, and the cast of characters, like you could just have so much fun. It's perfect. It is perfect. And do you watch billions? I'm sad to admit, you know me, I don't really watch TV shows. Yeah.

3:25:26Well, you would like billions. I spend my time playing video games. At least you would really like the first two seasons of billions. The guy who plays Ari Spiros who works for the SEC is in and Ron the musical. So did it like run on Broadway? Is this like a legit? I think so. Yeah. Let me see if I can pull it up. Yeah, it's on Broadway.com slash shows slash and Ron. Amazing. Amazing. So that's my first one. That's so great.

3:25:54My second one is Disney Plus show called Andor. It is probably the best thing to happen to the Star Wars franchise since Rogue One. Oh wow. It is extremely tightly linked to Rogue One and the direction, cinematography, writing, pacing, dialogue, character development. It is all just exceptional. Better than the Mandalorian for sure. It's the best Star Wars Disney Plus thing. Oh, that's great because the Star Wars franchise has...

3:26:21Really, at least in my view, taking a big downhill turn. Yeah, it ain't what Bob I originally intended. No. Speaking of... Speaking of... Man, we gotta figure out something to do on a quad. What are we gonna do, Disney Plus Plus? Like, what's the... Disney Plus Plus. We should do an Eiger Plus episode.

3:26:40But honestly, we've told most of the story. So those are my two. Go watch Andorra, whether or not you like Star Wars. I think that's actually the important thing is whether or not you like Star Wars, this is good. And a lot of other things relied on fan service. Yes. That was the problem. That threw out sort of like nonsensical stuff, but had enough callbacks where you're like, okay, cool. It's cool to see that character again. Yeah. That was my biggest beef with episode nine. Yeah. All right. Well, no holy words here. No holy words. What are your cards?

3:27:09Oh my god, that's okay. So the one that I thought of as only very, very quasi related to the episode, but as you were saying, you're one of your quotas and one of my quotas, the Berkshire out the way and for the loom and Brooks. So I've now completely worn through two pairs of Brooks ghosts since our episode with Jim and having Brooks unacquired. They're fantastic. I love them.

3:27:35But now as a parent, I do far less actual running than I used to and a lot more walking of the stroller. And the ghosts were, they were great as walking shoes, but like they're running shoes. You know, Brooks is a running company. I found out, as I was in the market, I completely destroyed my second pair of ghosts. I was in the market for a new pair of shoes and I was like, should I just fight the bullet and admit what I am and get walking shoes instead of running shoes? And I was like, oh, that probably means I can't go with Brooks. I have to find something else.

3:28:04But it turns out I was so pleasantly surprised Brooks makes a walking shoe called the addiction. The Brooks addiction, I got a pair before our trip to Portugal for a break point. I love these shoes. And they just like really cushy. What's good about a walking shoe? Maximum support.

3:28:26You know how like a running shoe, like it's, the souls are very flexible. Did they offer it in Velcro, like for when you're seven days? They do. They actually do. They actually do. I've not yet made the jump to get the Velcro. Maybe if we have another kid, then I'll just feel like fine, give me the Velcro. I mean, my daughter shoes are Velcro, so why shouldn't mine be? Lean on and do it, David. Lean, they do it. But I gotta say, these shoes rock and they don't look like old man shoes. They look like Brooks running shoes. I bet the Velcro ones do though.

3:28:54The Velcro ones totally do. They are so good. And I now realize the difference between walking and running shoes. Running shoes, the sole is very flexible. It's like they've got these different cushioned parts of the sole based on where your foot's straight. Walking shoes, one big old slab of incredibly supportive. It's so good.

3:29:14I'm so old, I love it. Wait, I gotta interject another carve out then. I'm wearing, and this is gonna be, I'm gonna start a holy war, since this is not Brooks. I'm wearing Hoka slides right now. There are my indoor shoes.

3:29:27Oh, nice. The floors my house are like really hardwood. And so I was like my feet hurt from standing on hardwood barefoot for too long. And I was like, I gotta do some form of like indoor shoes. So I'm wearing these hoax slides. They're very easy to get on and off. They're very cushy. I highly recommend them for anybody who's considering indoor shoes as a part of your easing into old age. You're on a slippery slope. Before you know it, you're gonna be on the Velcro walker. So just with me. Seriously.

3:29:56All right, so that's carve out number one of mine. It's the Aura Luxe, by the way. O-R-A-L-U-X-E. Nice, nice. My other carve out is our good buddy, an acquired Bessie, Jason Calcanos, J-Cal on a Tim Ferris show. It's one of the most recent episodes. It was really good. I know, and I think we talked about in some of our episodes with J-Cal that he and Tim are buddies. They're like actually really close, long time friends, and J-Cal just went on Tim's show, and it's really good.

3:30:26That's cool. Well, with that, after you finish this episode, come discuss it with the 13,000 other smart kind thoughtful people. I'm generally very appreciative of for being in the acquired slack with us. I've asked a few questions recently around just like, hi, I'm a total novice on investing in corporate debt. How does one do that? How should one think about that? Is this an interesting time to do that? And I got like a thousand interesting responses. So thanks to everyone who's just being a part of the community. If you want to get acquired merch. We now have two new shirts in addition to this sweet ACQ shirt that I am wearing. You can get a market size unconstrained shirt in two different variations with the original AWS logo inspired design. You can also get a there is always room at the top benchmark inspired shirt at acquired.fm slash store. You can view my Photoshop.

3:31:24capabilities on full display there. So good. I'm so glad we've been teasing this for months. I'm so glad we finally made it happen. I know. I feel like this is our, um, it's on the office, right? Where, uh, it's the Wayne Gretzky quote, right? And it's like, uh, oh, yeah, is it the skate where the puck is going or whatever it is? And it's like, Wayne Gretzky, Michael Spot, Michael Scott. Yeah. So we're like, market size unconstrained Jeff phases. Yes. Indeed.

3:31:53We've also had some great LP shows recently which you can get. I think all the episodes we've recorded are public. We're going to be recording a couple more in the next week that we're very excited about. And you can find episodes of the LP show publicly available in the podcast player of your choice by just searching acquired LP show. And with that listeners, we'll see you next time. We'll see you next time.