Acquired - Push Pop Press (Facebook Instant Articles) with Todd Bishop

0:00Well, is it anti-Trump? Yes. I think we're probably fine. Welcome back to episode 13 of acquired, the show where we talk about technology acquisitions that actually went well.

0:31I'm Ben Gilbert. I'm David Rosenthal. And we are your hosts. We have a very special guest today visiting us from GeekWire. Todd Bishop. Hey, it's great to be here. So great to have you. I'm a fan. I'm a listener. I think yours might be the only podcast that I've listened to every episode of. Whoa. Which speaks of the fact you're so relatively new. I listen on my walks on the weekend and really love what you guys do on the show. Thank you, Todd. Yeah. We're glad to have you.

1:01Yeah, it's a privilege. And for this episode, it's going to be particularly interesting. We're talking about the publishing industry. So we wanted to have Todd on because we thought it would be particularly fascinating to listeners to get a little insight info from someone who's kind of experiencing the results of the acquisition firsthand. So before we get into what the episode's on today, a couple of administrative things. First one.

1:26Please leave us a rating and a review on iTunes. It is tremendously helpful for the future of the show as we invest in better tech and we get more and more guests on and we're able to do more things with the show. I appreciate you doing that and doing any sort of sharing on social media that you feel is appropriate. Secondarily, we started a Slack community and we've seen some really great uptake in that. Yeah, it's been really fun to chat with all you guys.

1:53Please would love more people to join, but for people who are already in, keep the questions and discussion coming. It's been great. Yeah, and we've got some email asking, well, how do I join? It's on the acquired website. If you're on desktop, it's a little widget on the right side. You just enter your email and then it emails you had to do it. And if you are on mobile, it is down below the posts. All right, listeners. Now is a great time to talk about a new partner of ours here on acquired.

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4:15Plenty of things demo well, but the question is whether a busy associate actually reaches for it during crunch time, or whether a partner trusts it before going into a conversation with a major client. If your legal team wants to check it out, whether you're a law firm or you're in-house at a company, you can learn more at legora.com slash acquired and just tell them that Ben and David sent you. So, without further ado, our episode this week is on Facebook's acquisition of Push Pop Press.

4:44Try that, try Blair. Say that five times faster. David, do you want to dive in with the history and facts? As always. So, very interesting one here. The company, as Ben mentioned, is Push Pop Press, which not many people have heard of, but it was founded in February 2010 by two guys, Mike Mattis and Camon. I'm probably going to butcher his last name since Sinceris, I believe. And they were both alums of Apple. And they had been one a designer and one an engineer at Apple for about four or five years. And they had worked on the iPhone in the years leading up to the launch. Yeah. And as a total Apple nerd, these guys are legendary. I mean, you look at their portfolios. They've designed everything from the, you know, the charging battery icon on the front of the iPhone for the first

5:42Six software releases two maps on the map. You're stealing my thunder here. Sorry, sorry, sorry. Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry,

6:11Well, I should stop doing anything from memory ever. Quite, quite impressive guys. And interestingly, while they were working on push-pop press, which was only for about two years, Mike was also working on the side. I don't know which was the side gig and which was the permanent gig. But he was one of the first people working on Nest. And nobody knew what Nest was at this point, but they were...

6:38The secretive startup from former Apple folks and Mike was also part of that team. He was and Mike's had his hands in really great software for a long time He's for the Seattleite listeners out there It's actually a native Seattleite and worked on some really incredible Mac software that is is pixel perfect called delicious library from a delicious monster right with Will Shipley and that you know as a you know yet again Apple nerd and and like admirer of great software is is really kind of setting the bar for creating great UX. And one of the greatest startup names ever, right? Which is monster. Indeed. So with these two superstar engineers and designers from Apple, they leave they start push pop press. What is push pop press? One might ask. So at Ted, at the Ted conference in spring of 2011, they unveil at the conference what they've been working on. And

7:39it was an attempt to reimagine the book. What does the book look like on a mobile computer, both tablets and phones, smartphones, and the first book that they launched was in conjunction with Al Gore, who interestingly was an Apple board member, and also At the time, I believe still affiliated with the venture capital firm, Kleiner Perkins, which was an investor in NEST. And they worked with him to launch his book called Our Choice, which was about the environment. And it was an incredibly beautiful app. It was released as an app within the Apple App Store. It was only on iOS. And the technology behind it that push pop press

8:34created enabled highly highly immersive interactions with again really a reimagining of what a book was with interactive content with audio with video all seamlessly integrated into this experience yeah and one of the things to note about that was you know it's it's still not it's not an easy thing to imagine a really immersive beautiful kind of perfect animation curve Application like this that that alone is hard the engineering especially on on those real early iOS devices Particularly difficult and these were kind of the the two guys in the world that could that could build that you know in vision that that incredible experience and then Yeah, we're talking early iPads and like iPhone 4 4s time frame Yeah, and actually interestingly now we can't

9:28Verify this confirm or deny but it has been reported in the press that this actually might have gotten into them into a little bit of trouble Because apparently again according to some articles out there. We don't know if this is true or not, but apparently Steve Jobs noticed when these guys left and noticed what they were working on and he believed that A lot of the technology that they used to build push pop press was actually alarmingly similar to some of the patented technology that they had developed while they were at Apple working on iBooks. So he, again, supposedly got a little upset about this. Good thing there's no non-compete provisions in California, right? Yes, exactly. Exactly. Well, this was actually an IP issue. Right. This was a patent issue, supposedly.

10:21This was after they launched it head in 2011. And interestingly at WWDC that year in June, not everybody at Apple was too upset because our choice and push pop press actually won an Apple design award for the iPad is being one of the best designed apps, according to Apple on the iPad that year. But nonetheless, very shortly thereafter in the beginning of August of 2011, Facebook announces that they have acquired push pop press for an undisclosed amount.

10:51And again, supposedly according to these articles, the fact that jobs was kind of on the warpath about this and upset about some of the potential IP violations regarding books and apps might have contributed to the outcome here and not continuing to go along as a standalone company. No way for us to know. Interesting hypothesis. I never took it there before. A note on this acquisition, I think it's safe to assume that it's a pretty small sum.

11:20You know not a big team very early stage But what it did represent I remember thinking this at the time I had bought the book it was incredible to play with had great reverence for sort of the technology behind it and I was thinking man Facebook just keeps Buying up and sort of we don't know if this was an aqua hire but had done several acquisitions before of teams that were just incredible iOS designers and developers and I was like they really have a war chest there. And thinking back to that time period, I mean this was still a great state of flux for Facebook in the mobile era. They were doing the hybrid web thing. They hadn't managed to translate there. The Facebook apps were not native on iPhone and Android. They were doing the wrapper development.

12:10Mass right and their mobile future was uncertain with their ad revenues and they hadn't translated their cash cow from desktop yet And you know as we know they were they become incredibly successful with the the newsfeed ad is one of the best ad units in history But but you're right there were times back then I remember some I believe I don't know if they were public or not at this point But there were big questions about whether they could translate their success into Mobile apps and into yeah, this was right around the time there was an infamous recode interview at the recode conference or or This might have been before we could probably was back at the all things the all things these are the things Yeah, the hoodie where where Mark Zuckerberg was being grilled on stage by well while Moss breaking Kara swisher. Yeah

12:56hoodie on and he was sweating. He was being grilled about mobile and Facebook's missing of mobile. And he ended up taking the hoodie off and it was. And then it had that like that. Yeah. Something. Yeah. It's very very cool. There's a moment. But others have speculated that that was that moment was the turning point when he realized that Facebook needed to go all in on mobile and they really did after that. Yeah.

13:22And this acquisition was part of it. Now interestingly, then we'll wrap up the history and facts here. As Ben mentioned, we don't know the price of the acquisition. We have to assume it was quite small. Push-pap press had never raised any money. It was just the two of them and a couple other people who were working on it. But when they were acquired, the founders actually wrote on the website on their blog that this was just about them and the technology. They were not going to continue.

13:50in the book industry. Although Facebook isn't planning to start publishing digital books, the ideas and technology behind Push-Pop Press will be integrated with Facebook, giving people even richer ways to share their stories. With millions of people publishing to Facebook every day, we think it's going to be a great home for Push-Pop Press. Cough, publishing, cough. Publishing, not books. Yeah. Interesting.

14:16So yeah, let's get into it. I mean, just to wrap it up quickly. So then the team goes, the two of them go on and they work on two things that they're still working on at Facebook. First is Facebook paper, which many people don't remember, but this is a standalone app that Facebook launched in early 2014. That's basically a flip board competitor. Yeah, and if you look at this, this was the first thing I think it might have been conditional upon the acquisition, but Mike Mattis got to run Facebook Creative Labs. And this was kind of the product to launch out of Creative Labs.

14:46The animations and the sensibilities from pushpot presses book are just like right there in paper. I mean, the whole immersive design philosophy, very smooth curves between things, you can tell it's the same team. And although paper, it still exists, you can still download it in the app store. It's only on iOS, much like pushpot press. It hasn't been a huge success, but it informs the real is the Trojan horse to the real meat here is that this push pop press becomes and and these guys are are the product leaders of Facebook instant articles. Yeah, and I think Mike was and recently left, but but kimon or not exactly sure what I pronounced that is still there. Mike, what are you doing now if I call us? I believe I so I follow on Instagram. He's like a tremendous nature photographer and he's he's he's doing a lot of traveling. I think he's taken some time.

15:41I'm sure well deserved but instant articles is really I'm sure many of our listeners know about it, but this is really game-changing Product that that Facebook launched last year and it was interestingly I'm sure you'll appreciate this the fact that they were working on it was scooped by David Carr at the York Times at the in fall of 2014 and then it ends up coming out in spring of 2015 and I believe the opening line of his article where he talks about this is that Facebook is like A big dog in the park that is galloping at you. And you don't know if it wants to play with you or eat you. Oh yeah, that is so perfect. So perfect. If you are a publisher. Exactly, exactly. Boy, I'm in the park, man. You guys are in the park. We are, we are. So in preparation for this, I spent quite a bit of time with our analytics just getting a sense for

16:41What we get from Facebook, what we give to Facebook, we get roughly 10% of our traffic from Facebook. Is it the largest single? It's the largest. Other than organic search. So if you look at organic search, it's close to half. But in terms of actual dedicated inbound refers. So it's quite a bit of traffic. Now in the old school publishing mentality, Publishers would think I've got to get users on my site. That is where I'm you know converting them into you know potential e-commerce customers or I'm getting them on my email list Exactly and I think instant articles is one of the best examples of that mentality shifting for publishers that are a little more progressive And we should say word to about what it is for people who haven't really dug into the product. This is a major change in the way

17:39Content and articles that is owned and written by publishers are being distributed. So before Instant Articles, if somebody shared a link to an article on Facebook and you clicked on it on mobile, you would be taken to the mobile browser and read the article on the page. It's top of saying that the publisher's page, but with Instant Articles, publishers are actually giving their content over to Facebook. It's being hosted on Facebook servers and then displayed in a very push pop press like beautiful, immersive reader that loads instantly rather than clicking through to the mobile web and waiting for everything to load. And even more importantly, for this discussion, Facebook can sell and serve

18:27It's own advertising within the article. Now, publishers can too. But and if publishers sell the ads in the article, they keep 100% of the revenue. But Facebook can also sell in and then they keep 30% of the revenue. Yeah. And to put some numbers behind the how much faster it is, they say an average webpage article takes about eight seconds to load. And people just bounce off that tremendous amount. Especially on mobile. Yeah. Yeah. And they say it's 10 times faster in an instant article. Yeah, I can't.

18:56count the number of times when I've gone, this is not worth it. I'm going back and finding something else to read. So I think that whole construct and that assertion of theirs is very valid based on just casual everyday user experience. But this is a mentality shift for publishers because you've got so many readers on Facebook already and the old school mentality is, hey, we need to get them on our site. But when you start talking about the monetization, that's when it starts to go, okay, well, to go back to your dog park analogy. Maybe I'll let Facebook, I don't know, I don't want to say that. That's much better than what I was going to say. Thank you. So yeah, I mean, that is the thing. We've actually experimented with instant articles a little bit, and I should say this is part of a sort of broader set of these types of approaches. Google has accelerated mobile pages very similar. We've actually had a lot more success with AMP.

19:50than we have with instant articles. Apple news, of course, and then flip board. You know, all these things are examples of publishers saying, okay, the articles don't need to be on our site, but what do we get in return for allowing you to host them? And really, for us, it's the monetization. With Facebook instant articles, Apple news, we have not yet seen the kind of user base that would justify putting a lot of effort into it and because the revenue just isn't there yet. Google is actually a bit of an exception because they're so integrated with DFP double-click for publishers. And it's our native system, Google gets it. So in that way, I think Google may have a bit of an advantage in terms of the monetization and then in attracting publishers in this whole international world. So that's our view. Even though Facebook

20:42probably has a significant advantage in terms of traffic. Exactly, yes. Google has a much better monetization tools for you. Yes, for us as a publisher, but there's no denying the reality of Facebook's user base. I'm curious, how do you and John think about this? We're talking before we started about old web publishers, Tyler to the Philadelphia Inquirer, I worked at the Wall Street Journal back in the day, I mean, the cost structure at the journal, we spend a billion dollars every year on everything putting out the paper and creating the website and all this. And it was all about creating that relationship with the reader. And now we live in a different world. How did it? Yeah, it's definitely changed.

21:29We talk about our publishing process, just as an example, we'll publish a story on WordPress, and then every reporter for us, the next step is to go to Facebook. And you're really not done publishing until you've published a link on Facebook. And so obviously, Instant Articles takes that a step further because it's just automatically populating that with the cached version, the pushpot press version, essentially. So, you think of your readers in a much broader way than just the people who are on your site.

21:59you think about other things too, like we've been experimenting a lot with retargeting and the whole notion of once a reader leaves your site, you can still serve them ads from yourself for our events, for example, or for your advertisers on behalf of your advertisers on Facebook. So we think about it as, it's much more holistic now. And in that way, Facebook has broadened their horizons, right? They've taken away the audience, but they've also opened the door for you to get there.

22:27every publisher large and small had their own ad sales force right and that was where a huge part of the cost you know at the journal and elsewhere were but the ability to sell that audience was so limited relative to a Facebook and so Now you live in a world where it probably doesn't really make sense for you, as a publisher, to invest a lot in your own ads, if you can just click a button. A few people back at the office are going to be listening very intently there. So we have a strong... Well, but not to have a... Not to have... I mean, we had hundreds of ad sales people at the... Exactly. I'm sure you guys don't have hundreds of ad sales. We have three. We have three. And the advantage there, obviously, is that...

23:07in terms of direct sales, you can provide more value, you can provide custom packages, you can bundle in events, and so your margins are higher than just going through some kind of network buy. So for us at least at our size, there's still a big value in having direct sales. Not to mention you actually know what experience is being delivered to your reader. I mean, you don't have to hope and pray that some network isn't serving a thing that you want next year content.

23:36Oh, that's absolutely right. Yeah. So that is the control issue is something there. And that's all about just making sure you're delivering the right value to the reader and to the sponsor. Yeah. All right, listeners. Now is a great time to tell you about a long time friend of the show, Vanta. AI has scrambled the whole security picture. It used to be that you proved that you were secure once a year on audit or a static PDF that everyone would not and you're done. But in an AI first world, that doesn't hold up anymore.

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25:08trust has to be continuous now, which is why Vanta automates your security, your compliance, and the work to earn and prove trust. We're huge fans of Vanta over here, and literally hundreds of acquired listeners have become Vanta customers at their companies over the years. So you can get $1,000 off Vanta at Vanta.com slash acquired. That's V-A-N-T-A dot com slash acquired for $1,000 off and just tell them that Ben and David sent you. For accelerated mobile pages for Google and for Facebook, Facebook instant articles do you guys do your own ad sales or do you trust the do you hand that off to them and take the 30% cut we've only done a little testing with instant articles and actually it's a whole other issue we've run into a problem with the plugin created by Facebook and automatic the creator of WordPress and

25:58This is, like I said, this could be a rat hole. So you can edit this out later, but they have some work to do on that plugin. And so we haven't been able to fully test that. And that's the plugin that theoretically makes it easier for publishers that Facebook can go in and automatically suck out your content and then put it into an instant article without you doing a whole lot of work. That's right, exactly. For Google accelerated mobile pages, just because of the extension from DFP, All of our ads can go there. So we can, if we direct sold an ad that appears on the site, it can go into the, into instant art, or you can go into AMP into accelerated mobile pages. Wow. Huge advantage to Google on that. Yes, absolutely. As a consumer and a reader, I'm much more a fan of Facebook and instant articles because you get this experience where I'm in a native experience. It's already downloaded all the content for the article and I just go right into it. And on mobile pages, you know, it's always

26:52whenever you're on a website you're keenly aware that you're on a website and it's not quite native and so whenever for those of you who haven't or don't know if you've hit an accelerated mobile page yet it's when you search for something on Google and there's a result that's for a new story that sort of keeps you on the search results page but there's an article overlaid on top of it and I'm always A little disappointed like yeah, it's a lighter website, and it's accelerated, but it's still kind of a webpage and it would be nicer if it was more native. It was pop press. It's interesting to hear it leg up. I definitely want to keep this conversation going, but let's move into acquisition category. So even before you read there.

27:41their press release. I said that it's primarily a people acquisition, secondarily a technology acquisition. And sure sounds like we're an agreement there. Well, I had primarily technology, secondarily people, but you know, hey, it's all semantics.

27:56Yeah, I'd have a hard time disagreeing with that. I mean, my question is, what were they doing between 2011 and 2016? You know, if it was a talent acquisition or a technology acquisition, it took them a while. I guess it was 2015 that they came out with instant articles. But I think paper, I think for a while, they were kind of playing around with what is the thing that we're going to build. And that was sort of why Creative Labs was its own little entity in Facebook before paper came out. But I think the team for paper actually got pretty large and it was a sizable effort where I don't know the exact quote, but I remember Zuckerberg announcing it and saying like, this is like a new direction for Facebook. Like this is the new way you experience Facebook. And obviously it was right. It just ended up becoming within the Facebook app. Yeah. Yeah. Which I think was interesting. The other thing is that like we were saying earlier, the core Facebook app was such a mess in those early days. I think it's it's amazing how much functionality has been brought back into that app and how

28:54how big that piece of software has become. Yeah. Yeah. Um, you want to go to what would have happened otherwise? Yeah. Well, it's my business. I think this merits an interesting detour. Let's say they'd state independent and continue trying to reinvent the book. Good idea. Bad idea. How does that play out? Uh, there's no way they don't get picked up. And if it's not Facebook, it's someone else, but we'll all suspend that. Like I think it's that they're so good and it's so inexpensive when they've built it so interesting to so many players that like, I don't think this scenario exists, but let's go down to what would have happened if they had kind of reinvented the book. You know what happened? Well, I was on their competing with Amazon. And they're getting sued by Steve Jobs. Maybe. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. Like, it would have required, for that to really work as a business, it would have required content producers.

29:54to embrace a like writers authors to embrace a whole new way of a whole new medium basically and what's interesting about that versus what it became with instant articles is um you know the the authors of content uh publishers don't do anything different it just Facebook sort of you know, does its magic and makes it look beautiful. And they can. Facebook wants you to. There's all these kind of unique things that you can do with data visualization and parallaxing, you know, images and things like that. But you don't have to. No. Yeah. And I think probably very few that splashy when when when publishers do, but they probably don't do a lot of it. Probably hard to justify the ROI on this. Yeah. Whereas you would have to create a massive behavior change in terms of

30:46producers to really reinvent the book. So likely it would have been hard. One way we could see that proxy for that playing out is with iBooks author. Apple came out with that software to create textbooks, and it's supposed to be exactly the same thing. Things that move, things that slide, interactive ways of learning. And when they announced it on stage, I was thinking, this is really going to require some Serious things that Apple is not necessarily good at like they're gonna need a lot of sales people a lot of relationship managers like really to go and and convince the five major textbook publishers Pearson and then the likes of them that like this is their future Yeah, and I I just don't think they double down on that. Yeah, didn't didn't work It yeah, it seems like the other natural acquirer here would have been Amazon in my office on that. I mean just

31:36given the the book's angle yeah sure seems like it or Barnes and Noble maybe if they were back in because 2011 you know they could they were still sort of in the game yeah yeah that is cool to think about like what if what if Kindle were beautiful no thanks to anyone working on Kindle but it's gotten it's gotten a lot better it has gotten a lot better I love Kindle it's probably my one of my most use Apps and and devices. I use both the app and the device but and the the oasis is pretty darn sweet Do you have one? I've used one. Yeah, I love it to get one, but I just can't just to file like $300 for it Yeah, and of course you eat because a whole different game than what we're talking about here But yeah, there's there's still lots of room for improvement in the whole digital ebook Yes, lots of room. I do want to raise the point to I think

32:28They had the luxury of being super super selective Of if they were going to get acquired who it was going to be by They strike me as the the kind of people that if they didn't have a tremendous respect for the company and didn't feel that Their principles of design and beautiful experience were sort of like embodied in the efforts of whatever that company was trying to do. I don't think they would have gone Yeah, so I think that that narrow I mean they hadn't raised any money so there were no you know evil VCs on the board, you know forcing them to sell But yeah, I think you're probably right and not to mention that You know was it Mike I think was you know working on the side or full-time and nest so Yeah, this was not a this was not a forced sale by any means no All right listeners

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34:54So if you're trying to turn AI ambition into real business outcomes and make it work safely, securely at scale, go check out servicenow.com slash acquired and tell them that Ben and David sent you. All right, let's jump back into to tech themes because I think we can really unpack some some cool stuff with out here.

35:13Well, Todd, why don't you go first? Yeah, this really does speak to the broadening horizons for publishers and the risks and opportunities that come along with that. I mean, this is... I think a lot of... I've been around since...

35:29the days when I had one daily deadline for, you know, one story that needed to get to the printing press by 11 at night. You know, so not to date myself here. But I remember those days too from 2009 at the Wall Street Journal. So it was not that long ago. So I think you've gone through a few transitions there for publishers, first obviously to the web and then to mobile. And now in some ways you're seeing a fourth transition to, you know, beyond your own property. What needs...

35:55What needs to happen? What can you do? Who can you reach? And how can you monetize it? And that really is the big thing for me here. Yeah, so Todd, I've had a crazy idea for a start-up for a while. And I, like, this is the perfect time to poke holes in it. Could you start a publisher at this point that doesn't have a website that purely exists on social? It's only on AMP. It's only on Instagram. Well, one might argue this is what BuzzFeed is, but...

36:19Yeah, they have a destination site. I'm curious how much their destination versus social, but I think you could and I think you should and That would be fantastic I think you should do everything but a website So in other words publish on Facebook and the the verge has been talking about this and I know I think their new gadget blog is focused almost exclusively on Facebook and I think it's the verge I get all those the version and gadget and gizmo They just blend together in my mind after I'm a big rich fan Yeah, it is the right right? It's the gadget blog just on Facebook. I'm sure that I don't know I don't I don't David I'm a big geek wire fans I Don't think the virgin geek wire competitors. Yeah, I'm a big geek wire fan I One of my themes was

37:10was hinting at earlier is this sort of re-imagine of the publishing industry. I'm curious how you guys acquire. I mean, you're such a, you are a news site, of course, probably first and foremost, but there's so much more to what you do. You're a community. And how do you think about life and your business model in this world? Yeah, absolutely. So I can share a few broad details. So about roughly 60% of our revenue has nothing to do with the website.

37:38And it's not because it's coming from Facebook or anything else. It's probably not accurate to say it has nothing to do with the website, but we get event revenue. I mean, that is a major driver of our business. You were saying that your ad sales efforts aren't focused on a holistic package, right? You're getting ad units on the site, but you're also getting sponsorship set events and you're offering something beyond just a website. The way we look at it is that our news brings people to the site and then we create a community around that news and then the question is, okay, you've got this great community, how can you provide value to that community and to the people who want to reach it? And if you think about it in that abstract way, then all these really interesting possibilities come up. If you just think about it as, I've got people coming to my website and I want to serve them ads, then it's too simplistic and it's a decade ago mentality. So this is all part of that broader evolution and how publishers think.

38:31In thinking about instant articles, some of the bigger publishers that have this sort of a trained behavior of a whole city going to their website every morning, much like they used to read the paper at their dining room table every morning. And they worry about doing something like this because it untrains that habitual behavior of going to the site. Do you guys worry at all about sort of losing that, oh, they're not used to going to Geekwire anymore? Certainly there's a core set of your readers who will always do that.

39:01So much anymore, the front door, the front door of your website is not your home page. It's an article that somebody comes into. And when we think about the design of the site, we think about that. This is really the place that people are coming to. And that's driven by social. It's the fact that people are getting a link off a Twitter, off a Facebook, and they're coming into your site through the back door. That's the phenomenon that I know I subscribe to. Probably we all do a mini of our listeners.

39:28You know, I don't go to the news anymore. The news comes to me. Right. Yeah. So if you're not playing in all the entire ecosystem, then, you know, you've got to, you're taking a big risk. And there are some people who can do it successfully. And, you know, there's some, there's a great biotech site in Seattle, run by a guy named Luke Timmerman. And he's, he does $99 a year subscriptions and is built a successful one-man business out of it. So there's, there's different approaches, but For the most part, if you're gonna be a holistic publisher in this world, you've got to play on all this stuff. It's interesting because I was gonna bring up one of the tech trends that identifies to me as sort of the corporate unbundling away from core competency where you can decide to take a dependency on a different business for something that...

40:19your deciding is not the thing that is unique and differentiating to you. And so one thing that I'll bring up here is Ben Thompson has a great theory about- I was wondering how long we would go in this episode before we reference. Time to strategy in this episode is 32 minutes.

40:36Actually, I don't know what Mark will be, but he is a great theory about, okay, I can be a one man independent publisher because I have this, you know, very sustainable business model where people pay me directly and I know that I'm not a destination site.

40:55I need to run extremely lean because I only have this very specific business model that allows me to do that. And then on the other side of the continuum, you have the New York Times. And they can afford to do all things for all people because they have just all eyes on them, the first thing that people check. I mean, there are very few of those who have survived the Facebookization of the front door of the internet. And it's interesting to see how Publishers in the middle play with that and I think Todd you raised a great point that you sort of have to embrace that, you know, it's the world around our publication I just look pulled up our analytics to maybe shed some light on this so about 45% of our inbound traffic is from organic search about 22% is from social all forms of social

41:41I'm sorry, 22% is from direct and then about 18% is from social so you get a sense for you We still have a pretty good direct audience there, but there's actually crazy to me that that Organic search is still by far the largest. It is and I don't know that may speak to quirks of our audience or our site But and that's the case for everybody and that does not include direct that does not include Wow. Yeah, that's organic search. That's That's the testament to the Omnivar right there. I mean, I think as much as we're yeah, yeah, we have a good point. We're like Google is serving ads on that. Wow. Well, go buy some Google shares right now. Nobody knows the difference. We do not dispense investment investment advice on this show. We should probably be legally bound to say that more often, but we, you know, it's a

42:30Most people don't know the difference between typing in words and typing in a URL. And so they're going to the internet. They're typing in the words. And if Geekwire is the first thing that comes up with the information about they're looking for, they hit it. It's interesting only that the interesting nuance there to me is that more people are being active about the news that they choose to learn about rather than reactive to whatever comes up in their Facebook feed. I don't think I was Giving people enough credit. Yeah, and like I said, we may not be representative of the broader trends out there. There are some quirks. It's fascinating. Yeah But you would it be fair to say that you guys at least have reimagined your product from being journalism to being a

43:23Community or like that's always the wrong way but from being a new site Yeah, I'd say it's still at its core a new site and that that's the thing when you look at the drivers of the business Then you know doing quality news we're trying to break news That that really is your ultimate competitive advantage and that gets the way you're talking about that It's like focus on your core competencies. Yeah, developing a social network is not You know, my core competency, I was trained as a journalist and most of the folks at the company were, and so that really gets to what you're saying there. Yeah, and I think I should just say like, you guys do a really amazing job with that. Yeah, we should say too. Yeah, we are both big fans. Oh, thanks.

44:09Gequire is, I'm sure for all of our listeners in Seattle are already fans, but for people who are not in Seattle, you probably also have heard of Gequire, but it is a fantastic technology news site. And I think, especially speaking at Madrona as a VC here in the Seattle community, just a linchpin of the whole technology community in the Northwest. Thanks. Well, and I should say, Only 30% of our traffic is Washington State. So Washington State is our largest individual market, but it's not the majority of our traffic speaks to a couple things. First, there's intense interest in what's going on here from other parts of the world. But we founded the site on the premise that Seattle and the Pacific Northwest deserve a national and international technology new site of their own. And so the traffic kind of bears that out. That's my stump speech. That's my elevator pitch.

44:59I'll be on a future episode. I'll be on episode 150 of acquired the acquisition of Gequire. The acquisition of Gequire. Washington has as a largest single geography, but not a majority. You and acquired both. There you go, nice. Awesome. Perfect. We're basically, we can do, we can do a merger now. We'll talk after. So we'll talk after, yeah. That's not on the record.

45:27So yeah, and the other we've covered, you know, great tech themes here the other one I wanted to bring up quickly is Ben Thompson his aggregation theory which we've talked about also on the show before but basically is The theory that you know in the past and it's represented nowhere better than publishing in journalism where in the past you needed to aggregate Distribution as a distributor you needed to aggregate you know, you need to aggregate journalists and you needed to aggregate delivery routes of newspapers and all that everything basically looking backwards from the customer. You didn't really care about the customer. The customer needed to come to you. In the internet world, you need to aggregate the customers. And then all of the producers will come to you. And this is what's happened with Facebook here with with Houston articles. You know, they cater to the customers. They care about the user experience. They care about making it beautiful, which is why they acquired

46:27push pop press so that the customers come to them, the customers are their customer, the readers, and then the producers come to them. Which I just think is super, super interesting. No, that's great. I had never thought about it that way. And it's true. It's completely true. And that's why Facebook has so much power. I mean, if you watch just the casual person pick up their phone, the chances that they're going to open the Facebook app first are so high. Incredible. They decide what you're going to be entertained by.

46:55And that is a tremendous sore deal. And informed by which is the whole issue that's come up recently with the issue with the Facebook trending stories. Yeah, that's an interesting thing. Should we touch on that a little bit? Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, so for listeners who haven't been tracking, there was basically, you know, they're mixed.

47:18feelings about how true it is but basically not in the newsfeed itself but in the little trending news widget on desktop and the top right or on mobile when you tap into an empty search field you see hand curated top news that Facebook thinks you would be interested in and the news story that basically alleges that they had talked to someone who used to work on that team and they said it was anti-conservative and the blow-up from that has been unbelievable And the interesting takeaways, boy, if the blow-up from that little thing has been that big, that little thing that, you know, half of you probably haven't even seen, and most of you probably have never clicked on, people...

48:00give Facebook a tremendous amount of credit for having this like agnostic algorithm. So can you imagine if they were doing anything in the newsfeed algorithm to tilt one way or another? I mean they're viewed as like this arbiter of the truth and there's this pure clean algorithm that decides what you look at. And I think that that trust that they've instilled in people is powerful crack has emerged though in the past month. We'll see what happens. I think very very dangerous for them.

48:29But it speaks to their power, and it speaks to that whole flipping of you aggregate the users. As long as users are coming every day to Facebook as a producer, as a publisher, you have to be there. Absolutely. This gets right back to what we said last episode that their crown jewels are engagement, and it's engagement and time on site, and just how much of your life you're giving to Facebook, and that's the power that they wield. Interesting to contrast that with.

48:59Snapchat too, from the last episode, which is, you know, they've said like, we're not gonna, we're not, you know, funky algorithms, we're not tracking you, we're not anything, we're like, you watch the stories, you wanna watch, and you follow the people, you wanna follow it, and it's hard to discover things on Snapchat. All right listeners.

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50:18All right, should we move on to conclusion? Grading. Yeah. Yeah. This is an easy A for me. I mean, I think that they really couldn't have done any wrong. I don't think that this acquisition necessarily made it so that they were going to go this direction. I think that this is doing something like Instant Articles is a natural course and they would have done it maybe just slightly less beautifully. But I think You know, great people to pick up. They were great leaders at Facebook, just talking to friends that worked with Mike, and I think that only good things. Yeah. I agree. I'm just thinking, I think you're right, though, if they hadn't acquired push pop press, they would have done this anyway. It just would have been less beautiful. So in that sense, it was probably really...

51:13a great acquisition of one. I don't think they spent that much. I mean, we don't know, but they probably didn't. Yeah, I give it an A2. I think what's holding me, what's nagging at me is there is an element of creepiness to Facebook as we were talking about this crack that's emerged one. And two, could there have been something Bigger that push pop press could have been I don't know. This was a great buy for Facebook no doubt Do you mean within Facebook? No, not necessarily. I think we typically to lay out the criteria for how we grade these. It's usually imagining that you are a shareholder of the the the acquirer. Yeah, I don't know what else they would have done within Facebook. They would have been great So yeah, hey, but I feel like Todd's got some Well, what was the thing that you say was paper that they worked on?

52:12What was the inside Facebook? I mean, it shouldn't have been, if that had been like a runaway yet, then it shouldn't have been an A. I don't know. I didn't have the plus. Okay, yeah. So I'll give it a B plus. I'll reserve the right to move that to an A if they fix the damn plug-in. Did I just... I guess you've had explicit language warning there just now? No, I don't know. I can say damn. All right, good.

52:36And it's interesting that the only thing that I think could lower at your ears and interesting point is, is this a strategically good idea for Facebook? Like, should they make this so hard on news and not just what you would discover that already lives on Facebook? I think it was brilliant strategically. Totally. I mean, the whole notion that they become the platform and they host it, they serve it up there. They're in control. From Facebook's perspective, it's hard to see how it's bad.

53:06So, if Facebook's goal is engagement and they want to keep you in the Facebook experience and ecosystem longer and they really want to be the internet to you, we've seen social, we've seen publishing, what's next, what else lives within Facebook that's not currently within Facebook that will be the next instant articles. Well, they live that they're investing hugely in television.

53:32Of course, they did this with games for a while. It'd be interesting to see if that was reincarnated in a new way. Of course, virtual reality. Yeah. With Oculus. Yeah. Yeah. Live isn't a whole other topic. Yeah. We've been experimenting with that too. It's totally changed the way we think about video. Oh, I'm really. Yeah. What it was. So, we've been doing live streaming.

53:55We we now have a debate every time youtuber Facebook youtuber Facebook and in the past month The balance has shifted to Facebook because you just see instant engagement Have you guys tried periscope or we tried that a little bit yeah periscope and Have you tried snapchat at all? No, no snapchettes when we're we're not as advanced as we should be honestly, and that's part of the problem as a publisher is like Where do you put your resources? Yeah. It's like that there was that ad the joke where the two executives are going up the elevator and the two bike messengers are talking about some hot news social now. Sometimes it can feel like that. Yeah. And you never know exactly when to jump on board. Pinterest is another one where we have not gotten as much traction. Yeah. But live on Facebook has been big for you guys. It has. Now we're not monetizing it yet. Not directly. Is anyone? I'm not sure. I'm not sure if that's an option at this point.

54:48I mean, you could you could hawk products while you're talking live on but that wouldn't be as part of a Facebook product. And now Facebook's got the whole thing too where publishers can actually do sponsored content. So they sell the sponsored content and they've got the in the Facebook business interface. They've got the little handshake icon. And so that's opened up new options too. So a long way of saying Facebook is finally starting to make it where it's financially at least worth exploring as a publisher, versus just putting your stories on there and hoping that you get traffic back. That's the big shift that we've seen. And did you see that? You mentioned that with live video, there's the debate between the two. With pre-recorded video, are you seeing the same thing where you're going, yeah, let's put it on Facebook and not on YouTube. No, we are. And in part that's because live is just such an interesting thing to do right now. And so we're still very much

55:47keyed into YouTube. Although, no, I take that back. We do. We're now posting it on both YouTube and Facebook after the fact, but the reason it's a debate and either or debate is because our equipment, some of our equipment, you can't simultaneously live broadcast above, whereas you can obviously later upload to both. Yeah. What is there a particular event or live event that you've done that you think is like really example of the future of Yeah, so we've been doing tours. So in fact, we did a tour of the Facebook headquarters here. It was kind of, it was very meta. And so I joked to Mike Schrepp for their CTO. I said, yeah, we're gonna be trying this out on a little social network you might have heard. And he thought I was actually talking, he didn't get the joke. He thought I was talking about some other, like, total paranoia. He thought we were streaming on something he never heard of. I said, no, no, we're doing on Facebook. We're doing live streaming on the launch. Yeah. But even just, you know, the quick stuff.

56:44You've got your phone. Obviously that's fully produced. We've got a handheld mic and we're walking around with him, you know, streaming to a box that goes to Facebook. But just the whole notion of being a reporter or being anybody out there, being able to pull out your phone and immediately broadcast to a giant audience. No, of course this has been around for a while with, you know, you stream and those kinds of things. But it gets to your point. Facebook has the user base. And so it changes everything.

57:09Yeah, and it has your user base. That's right. Because it's people, presumably people that are fans of Geekwire on Facebook see this right at the top of their news feed when you're live. Right. Exactly. So, yeah, it's changed the dynamic a lot now that it just seems like there's been a cascade of changes over the past year basically. Yeah. Yeah. Facebook is investing heavily in all this stuff. They are. Should we get to the carve out? Let's do it.

57:34All right, Todd, you want to go first as our guest? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So my carve out is actually another podcast. Love it. All right. But it touches on themes that you all touch about. And so I'm going to be very specific here. Gimlet Media's startup podcast.

57:49Now, I'm sure a lot of people watched, listen, listen. Here's what, here's the dynamic that happened with this. A lot of people listened to the first season, which told the story of Alex Bloomberg, the former of this American life reporter, journalist, starting his own company, which was fantastic. And then season two kind of sucked, honestly. What did the dating ring shut down? Is that what happened? Yeah. Yeah. It was, I personally, I personally didn't, I was not into that episode, that whole season. I, I suffered through it.

58:18season three if you got lost in season two go back and start again on season three and I don't want to ruin it but they do this great they do a story where they they tell the how can I do this without ruining for everybody they tell the story of a startup and it's founding and then do a reveal and you they tell you it like I think it's at the end of the second episode what the startup is that they've been talking about. And it's one that everybody knows. It's one that you've featured on one of your episodes last fall. As soon as you start hearing, you'll be like, oh yeah, I know what company that is. But a lot of people out there won't know. Casual listeners not in the tech industry won't know which company they're talking about. So that's my carve out startup season three, the first couple episodes. God, I love the teaser. I'm like,

59:09That's on the spoil. This is great. You're a good pitch man. Good. I'll go next because it's somewhat related unless you have another podcast. Not. It's your audio auditorially related. Mine now. Mine are the other four. Okay. So my carve out for the week is something to listen to your podcast on. Super interesting. I read this.

59:35article on back channel, which is part of medium, which is mediums tech collection, which is such a great name. And the title of the piece is called What if the future of technology is in your ear? And it's about this this Bluetooth ear piece that fits in your ear. It looks like a hearing aid. You really can't it's you can buy it in a variety of skin tones and you can't tell it's there.

1:00:05and it's made by Made in China by some Chinese company and you can buy it for like $11 on Amazon. I bought it for $11 when the piece was written and it was $13 and it connects your phone via Bluetooth and you can stream audio to it, you can stream music, you can stream podcasts, you can stream audiobooks, you can talk to it via Siri and the articles about like the device is kind of janky but it's amazing for like $11.

1:00:34And then you can like talk to Siri in your ear and it's like it's like the movie heard like it's that it's that and it's $11 on Amazon The article is really good And then the device like it's I listen to all my podcast and audiobooks on it now when I'm driving when I'm walking Wow, it's just just in my ear and nobody knows it's there. It's pretty cool Wow Just wait till Siri's good and then it'll be yeah. Yeah, right. We're waiting on that iOS 10 maybe wwc fingers crossed Mine is an article on Medium by Andy Dunn, the founder of Bonobos, or Bonobos, as I've heard it both ways, called The Risk Not Taken. And it's this really great reflective piece about different points in Andy's life, one when he was starting Bonobos, and one event many years earlier, really just about times when he's faced a difficult decision but already sort of knew the answer.

1:01:34And he calls it the little voice, little something on his shoulder. And it shows up and he looks over and he doesn't recognize it at first and then he realizes, oh my decision's already made and I have to go do that thing. And it's a really interesting play out of the two different paths that you could go taking the risk and not taking the risk. It's really poetically written, really, really smart guy.

1:02:01You know, really great for any readers who are sort of looking to try and figure out should I take the risk, should I not take the risk, or maybe perennially thinking about those things. That is good. What's the name of the article again? The risk not taken by Andy Dunn. That'll be in our show notes or the show description. You can hit the little icon next to this episode and find the link. Before we wrap up, I think we need to talk about this for a minute at the metal level. We just did this episode about Facebook and Instagram calls and publishing and two of our three car well all of our car vouts were media related and Two of them were on medium and one was a podcast and these are all new forms of journalism and publishing that are outside the bounds of Facebook really And in a lot of ways for now for now for now, but it's interesting that like just when you think the

1:02:55Just when you think the walls have closed around the garden, you know, there are flowers springing up outside. Speaking of poetic. All right, before we wrap up here, Todd, where can our listeners find you? GeekWire.com. Is that simple? Awesome. I'm Todd Bishop on Twitter. Also probably on Facebook. And on Facebook.

1:03:19Big thank you to Todd. This has been awesome. This is really exciting for me. Like I said, I'm a loyal listener. I see the... Are you gonna listen to this episode? I'll probably wait a month. That's how I tend to do things. So yeah, I really appreciate you having me on. Thank you. Thanks for coming. Thanks for coming.