Acquired - Starbucks (with Howard Schultz)

0:00All right, we're rolling. We're rolling. We get to see how you guys do this. It's kind of interesting. We usually have pump-up music. I feel pumped up. We can do that. We've got a turn table. I saw your turn table. That's beautiful. What do you want to hear? No, we're starting. Ben's keeping us on track.

0:35Welcome to season 14 episode five of acquired the podcast about great companies and the stories and playbooks behind them. I'm Ben Gilbert. I'm David Rosenthal and we are your hosts seven years ago David and I did an episode on the Starbucks IPO just the IPO That episode was a mere one hour and 24 minutes and Starbucks is a $90 billion institution in our world that deserves the full acquired treatment. What were we thinking? Well, it actually was amateur hour back then, David. Gotta start somewhere. Well, today we have a very special third co-host to discuss this third place, Howard Schultz. Howard started working at the small chain of three Starbucks stores in 1982, eventually buying it and becoming CEO.

1:23As you probably know, he is effectively the founder of the Starbucks we know today that exists on every corner of the earth. I come to you, David, and listeners as an unabashed Starbucks fan. In this tumultuous time for the company, I am absolutely pulling for them in every way possible, and that is going to come through in our conversation.

1:42You may have seen the news recently that they had a very rough last quarter with a key metric that you may remember from previous episodes as same store sales. These dropped and their stock price plummeted as a result. This is on top of a tumultuous pandemic era and some of their stores unionizing and a change in leadership. We thought that this would be the perfect time to sit down with Howard and unpack Why did Starbucks work in the first place? And how did it work at such grand scale? What can other founders and business leaders learn from what got them here? And although he is no longer CEO, where do they go now? It really is incredible. One of the very, very small number of food and beverage establishments that is scaled to the entire world. Yeah, most

2:30Of those types of concepts do not work in different countries and continents, but Starbucks is different. Today, they're in over 80 countries with 39,000 stores across the world. They're even huge in China, a country that didn't consume very much coffee until Starbucks arrived. They are a bank-scale financial institution as well. At any given time, Starbucks holds $1.7 billion that customers have loaded onto gift cards, but not yet spent.

2:55So how did they go from one store selling beans, not even drinks and cups, just beans, to the default meeting place in communities everywhere? Today, we tell that story. And listeners, this episode has video. We recorded it in person in Seattle at the Schultz Family Foundation, and you can watch it on YouTube.

3:14And if you want more from David and I, you should check out our second show, ACQ2, where we interview founders, investors, and experts, often as deeper dives into topics that we covered on the main show. Recent episodes have been awesome with the CEO and the founder of Synopsis, of Starfish Space, further exploring the space industry. And we've got some great stuff and payments coming up next, too. We do.

3:37All right, so with that, this show is not investment advice. David and I may have investments in the companies that we discuss, and this show is for informational and entertainment purposes only on to our episode with Howard Schultz. Well, I do have to tell you, and I think I've told you this off camera, for the last almost 10 years, every single day starts with a spinach and feta wrap. I assume there are other people like me in the world.

4:02but it's always an iced almond milk latte with whipped cream and a spinach and feta wrap. And so thank you for powering approximately a third of the cells in my body. That's a great start. I also, here's another stat that David, you've done the math on. I have done the math. I exported all of my credit card transactions since 2011. Of course you did. And I wish I had more history than that, but that was the oldest I could get. I've spent $23,000 at Starbucks since 2011.

4:31So, we want to start with Starbucks 1.0. And listeners may know that there were three founders of Starbucks. Yes. None of which were named Howard Schultz. Correct. So, take us back, you know, in the Starbucks prehistory before you arrived. Yeah. How did the company start? Well, since I wasn't there, this is what I know. There were three founders, Jerry Baldwin, Zeb Siegel.

4:59and Gordon Balker. And the story that was told to me is that one or both of them were going to school in California in the Bay Area. And they became enamored with Pete's coffee company, which Alfred Pete was more than anyone else in the history of coffee in America was the true pioneer. He brought especially coffee, a rabbit of coffee to Northern California.

5:29and Jerry Baldwin and Zev became so interested and intrigued with what Pete's was doing, and given the fact that they were from Seattle, decided they would try and bring Starbucks coffee in the form of Starbucks to Seattle, Washington. Now what is not known is that when Starbucks opened in the Pike Place Market in 1971, they were using Pete's coffee. Really? No one knows that. That's new.

5:58Because they were not roasting coffee, so they were bringing coffee from San Francisco to Seattle. They were not calling it pizza, they were calling it Starbucks. So it's pizza coffee in Starbucks bags? Yeah, yeah. Again, I wasn't there, but that's kind of the folklore. After the three founders built that store, opened that store, I get the sense that there was some kind of fallout between the three of them and Zev Siegel eventually left the company.

6:27That brings us to 1979-1980 around that time when I came to Seattle, Washington for the first time. So I was working for a Swedish housewares company based in Sweden called Hammerplast. That company had a beautiful, non-electric coffee maker, kind of a thermal unit. And we had a big customer in Macy's in Northern California.

6:57And I was in California on a sales call and I had heard that there was a small company in Seattle, Washington was buying a lot of this product. So given the fact that never been a Seattle, I was already in the West Coast. I figured I'd come to Seattle and see what was going on. We're Starbucks buying it for use in. They were selling it in their store. Now but here's the thing. Because this was a consumer device. Yeah, yeah, but you have to remember Starbucks coffee company from 1971 until around 8586.

7:26only sold pounds of coffee. There was no beverage. That's, you know, we're going to get into the epiphany of course. And so I walked into the pipe place store for the first time on a beautiful day just like this. The sun was out. There was snow on the mountains. The clean fresh air and I walked into the pipe place market and I walked into the Starbucks store and I was blown away by the experience, the romance of coffee, the education, and it just spoke to me. I had never met Jerry Baldwin, the founder who was the CEO at the time, and I became interested and intrigued with what Starbucks was doing and asked if I can meet Jerry. One thing led to another, I met Jerry Baldwin, we really hit it off, and we established kind of a vendor customer relationship over a course of a year or so.

8:22Starbucks had three stores at the time, only three. And over the course of the next year or so, I became more and more interested and intrigued with the possibility of leaving New York City. Sherry and I were dating, we're not married, and I kind of maneuvered my way into a job working for Starbucks. And so Sherry and I drove to Seattle, Washington on Labor Day weekend.

8:52in our old Audi car with a golden retriever. And we came here because I was offered the job as the head of marketing for Starbucks when they were getting ready to open their fourth store in 1982. Still just selling beans. Only beans. That's the whole, yeah, still a beans. The interest that the company had in me at the time, I think, was they were really interested in expanding, but their dream or the plan at the time was, could we expand to Portland, Oregon?

9:21Remember, so it was a tiny company. It was a grand ambition. Yeah, and I never had any idea, of course, that what was about to happen in unfold of the subsequent years. But that was, I arrived in 1982 as a head of marketing. So when you and Sherry arrive here, like, what was the coffee landscape? I mean, there were these three soon to be four Starbucks bean stores here in Seattle. Alfred P. was down in the Bay Area.

9:51But what was coffee culture? I mean, it was like folders in Maxwell's house. Yeah, it was, it was de minimis. There was another coffee company, which was Seattle's best coffee, which was another retailer that was kind of at the same size and scale of Starbucks, both equal at the same time. But you couldn't even get a New York Times in Seattle in 1982, 83. It was not no good food to speak of. And Starbucks was a true pioneer where they were educating customer after customer about what good coffee tastes like and the pipe place market gave them an interesting vehicle because of the tourist and so Starbucks actually started establishing a mail order business as a result of all the people who are coming into Seattle and I think if I remember there was so many points that I can remember where people were talking about Starbucks way outside of Seattle as if it was some kind of

10:48iconic big company. I think people came to Seattle. Is this it? This is, you know, the 800, 900 square foot store in Seattle, Washington and Pike Place Market. This is the mecca. And so tourists would come. They would buy a bag. And then they would fill out some kind of information. So I'd like to, I'd like to have this mailed to me in my city. Yeah. That's what happened. And because coffee has a shelf life of basically a week to 10 days. And we didn't have a vacuum bag at that time.

11:18We were shipping small amounts because to Jerry Baldwin's credit, he had such a fastidious point of view about quality and freshness. And I think that had a huge impact on me. But this couldn't have been like a great business. You're shipping small amounts. No, it wasn't. The logistics costs, you know, the scale like. This was a small business. But the equity of the brand even back then.

11:46was much larger than the size of the business. And the opportunity that I saw even when we had four or five stores was well beyond Portland, Oregon. And I was always kind of pushing, we could do so much more. And then the whole thing blew up for me when I went to Italy in 83. Okay, so before the Italy trip, I just want to really contextualize coffee in America. I think coffee had been declining since like 1940.

12:15still part of the American culture but it's not that it's on the way out but there's nothing new or interesting except for this little segment of especially coffee which was tiny and I think what you've just described the reason for that is coffee was terrible it was instant coffee stale coffee and primarily robust beans which is the low grade coffee that Starbucks was never involved in yeah walk us through the two types of beans There's mainly two types of agricultural coffee grown for commercial use. Robusta beans, low-end coffee, primarily in instant coffee, and high-grade Arabica coffee. But even within the Arabica coffee, there's significant segments of quality and integrity. And Starbucks has always played from 1971 to today at the highest level. And my understanding from our research is that the Robusta market

13:09Really developed as you say with the instant coffee market and that was kind of a product of World War Two, right? It was like hey, we got to get the troops this product to survive and so we just need a lot of beans and we need to ground them up and create this instant product. I believe Maxwell House was involved in inventing. Yeah, you're exactly right. I mean, it was just fuel and bitter acidic and yeah, and that's I think World War Two and the GI's were kind of the impetus for that kind of quality coffee or not quality coffee to exist and have any kind of run after the war. So you show up at Starbucks. You know, you know, a little bit about the market because you've been a supplier of theirs, but you happen to be a pretty talented salesman from your time at Xerox. Yeah. And I want to make a tie here. Our previous episode was the Microsoft episode or at least Microsoft volume one. You were selling word processors.

14:05made by Xerox. Tell me what word processors were in the mid-sense. So my territory was 42nd to 48th Street from 5th Avenue to the river. And I had to make 50 coal calls, physical coal calls a day. That was a job. The Xerox job taught me incredible amounts about not only selling, but humility, humility.

14:35because the rejection every day was so significant and you put on your suit and tie and you go in an office building there's no security at that time just go in and you go from the top floor to the bottom and then there are other people selling other products who are doing the exact same thing and you had to get by the receptionist I was making a thousand dollars a month and living at home when I started okay the word processor was a big machine in which you are editing on that machine to basically create a letter. And does it have a screen or has a typewriter? No, it's a typewriter, no screen. It's like a typewriter with a little bit of cash, right? Yes, exactly. You could pick mistakes for one line, right? Yeah. The job at Xerox, it was like working for Google. Xerox and IBM, with the two pillars of technology and high tech companies, you tell somebody you're working at Xerox, you had a whole different...

15:30the Tina that you are. Wow, that's working for Xerox. Wow. And so you quitting, well, Hammer Plast, but quitting what seemed like a stable of pretty good jobs to drive across the country to provincial Little Seattle. I mean, that's nuts. I knew after a couple of years, if I stated Xerox for a longer period of time, I was going to be locked in there. But I'll tell you the story that got me to realize I've got to get out of here.

15:59At the end of the year, the performance appraisal at Xerox was basically a scorecard from one to five. So you'd have a qualitative discussion with your manager, and then he would give you a number. And when I got a three, I said, you know, I just said on myself, I worked all year, I just had a performance appraisal from my manager, and I'm a three.

16:24This is amazing. Howard Schultz got a three. I got a three. I got a three and as soon as I got the three, I swear at that moment, I knew I've got to get out of here. And that's when I started putting myself in a position of meet other opportunities. And by and large, I was able to get the Hammer Plus job, which was the general manager of the company, which was based in Sweden in the US. But I was a three. Do you think having that background at Xerox. Did that give you a piece of perspective that helped build Starbucks to what it is today? When I hear the question, I have to go back to my childhood and think everything that I've experienced growing up in the projects in more or less a dysfunctional family because of the pressure of money. Getting the Xerox opportunity.

17:22and having some level of success but realizing I wanted more. The humility which came with rejection. The shame I had as a poor kid living in the projects. All of that I think crystallized in me and I give Sherry so much credit in realizing that together we wanted to build a different kind of life and gave me the courage, the conviction and the drive to try and do something that I felt I was destined to do. I didn't know what it was. I certainly didn't know moving to Seattle was going to create the opportunity of a lifetime, but I always felt I had to get out of that station in life where I was positioned not to get to the level that I thought I deserved to be. I don't think it is common with someone for your background. Poor kid in the projects coming from nothing.

18:22to get a great job, to great jobs and be wildly dissatisfied and not feel like I've made it, but rather, no, there's got to be something more than this. There's something deep inside you that caused you to be willing to take a risk. I was really insecure about not succeeding and I didn't view what I was doing as the success that I was not destined for. That sounds wrong.

18:53that I had the appetite for. All right. So we're getting to the big risk. So the year ticks over to 1983. Yeah. You are sent, or maybe you asked to go to an international houseware as conference in Milan. Yeah. What do you discover? So I went to a trade show called Machet, which big convention center. And it's a giant houseware show with equipment and all kinds of stuff. And I was staying at a a relatively cheap hotel in walking distance to the convention center. I get out of the hotel. I'd never been Italy before. And I am all of a sudden being intercepted with the physical manifestation of one coffee bar after another in the business that I'm supposed to be in. But it wasn't the business that Starbucks was in. And I walk in like a normal person that's never seen this before. And I am just like, I'm in a black and white movie.

19:51And all of a sudden, everything was color. And it was so rich. I couldn't get enough of it. And I just went from one to the other to the other to the other. And I was just blown away and more or less raced back to America, sat down with Jerry and Gordon and said, holy shit. What's happening in Italy is the business that Starbucks has to be in. And they had seen it. They've been Italy.

20:22And they said, no, it's not what we want to do. And I just said, seriously? And I banged on the door for two years. And in two years, they finally let me open up a coffee bar on the corner of fourth and spring in Seattle. And it was the sixth Starbucks store. And out of about 1,200 square feet, I got 100 feet. And I designed and opened the coffee bar, worked behind the counter as a barista.

20:52And Starbucks probably had two to three hundred customers a day selling homemade coffee. We were at five hundred in a week with introducing lattes and cappuccino to the espresso. And there's nowhere else. No one has yet had it. Well, to get a cup of coffee, a eyebrow had it. And that was Dave Olson. And after a few months or six months or so, Jerry said, I don't want to repeat this. I don't want to do it. I don't want to be in the restaurant business.

21:20What was the objection? He didn't think my other restaurant business. I mean, I don't want to speak for Jerry. I have so much respect for him, but he didn't think it was clean. He didn't like it. Now, between 83 and 85, Jerry Ball went because of his love of pizza and his relation with Alfred Pete had an opportunity for Starbucks to acquire Pete's coffee company. And they did. Unfortunately, Starbucks buys Pete's.

21:50And they get into financial trouble. And so really at this point it was like their mentor was retiring this person who was a steward of the industry. We're operating six points of retail distribution in Seattle for our beans. Why don't we just buy your effectively the same business but in northern California and keep them separate for now. Well, it's important to know that between the opening of the fourth and spring coffee bar inside a Starbucks Starbucks number six yeah and Jerry and Gordon saying we don't want to repeat this. I was so frustrated. I said I'm going to leave Starbucks. And what did I do. I had no money to open up a coffee store. So Jerry says Starbucks does not want to open up coffee bars but we will invest in Ilgenali.

22:40Which was the company you started to so before they get into financial trouble Starbucks is an investor. I've always thought he did that so I would sell and market Starbucks coffee in the coffee bar, which I would have done anyway So Starbucks makes an investment a couple of people that we know make an investment But I didn't have enough money so I go to see two Italian companies. I've never told this one is the espresso company Feima And one is the large Italian coffee company, La Vazza. Oh, yeah. And I asked them both to invest in my idea. And both of them turned me down. So at this point, you're in Italy, you're trying to get ideas and investors for what would become Il Giornale. For the first Il Giornale. And only Starbucks and a couple other people have committed. But I didn't have enough money. I still needed more money. And raising 1.6 million. About 1.6, 1.7 million.

23:40and they said no one is going to buy Italian espresso in Seattle or in America. Which is stupid because you watched it happen. I ran this store for six months and it was fine. They didn't want to do it. So the Lavazza, and just get that on the record, turned me down. They'll deny it, that's a fact. So then I go back to the US, I'm trying to raise money and I hit the three titans.

24:09in Seattle. Jack Beneroyah, Herman Sarkowski, and Sam Strong. Three of the leading citizens of Seattle Washington at the time, and the three of them have a little bit of an investment together in other things, and they say, we're going to believe in you, and they take me over the hump. Wow. Okay. And we open three Illigenaries, two in Seattle, one in Vancouver BC, and all three are doing well.

24:40All three, but I didn't have enough money to expand. And needing the money to expand just to pause on that for a minute, business-wise, obviously, coffee bars are a much better business long term than coffee beans, but probably more capital intensive, right? Eating more staff? Yeah, more labor, yes. But the stores weren't that expensive to open because they were small, less than a thousand square feet. And we understood how to do it. And I was working As a barista with Dave Olson and other people keep the cost down. We were behind the counter and I had no salary. I had no salary for almost two years. Well, Sherry was working and pregnant with her first job. So looking increasingly worse from a traditional perspective of leaving a high quality job moving across the country. Then just a couple years later, you are not making any money again. Well, raising millions of dollars to try to start your own business. It gets worse. Sherry is.

25:37six, seven months pregnant. She's working. Her parents visits you. They're from Ohio. Father asked me to take a walk. Oh, no. God, it's my wife's true story. Take a walk. And he says, whatever you're doing, I respect it, but it's not a job. It's a hobby. You need to get a job. My daughter's pregnant. She's working. You're not. I start crying. I'm so embarrassed.

26:11I come home at three four o'clock in the afternoon, whatever it is. I don't say a word Completely shaken by the whole conversation. My parents go to bed after dinner. I'm sitting with Sherry and I said I got to tell you something happened She was so angry at her dad and so upset and she said there's no way We're turning around where we are going So she is the glue to everything that's happened and I don't know if she'd ever had a conversation with her father. I'm sure she did I don't but The whole thing could have been over. And that would have been a very understandable response if Sherry had said I'm right. I wasn't going to say anything, you know, look at our situation objectively here. Putting ourselves in your father-in-law's shoes. How could you not feel that way for your daughter and her impending family? Yeah, and how father was a great guy. And I understood, but I was embarrassed and humiliated. How could I not be? I guess that's another dimension here too. This was not...

27:112024. It's not like being an entrepreneur was a glorified profession here. And a business that he clearly did not understand, you know, coffee store. The other interesting thing to point out around this time is for the people who were seeking high risk business investments, you know, this is the late 80s. It's time to look at tech. Like we're now 12 years into Microsoft, Apple's four years past the Macintosh.

27:40I'm trying to raise money for a coffeehouse chain with names that people couldn't pronounce and Serving it in a paper cup to go that does not sound innovative to me I don't know why I'm putting my risk capital into your yeah, you know, I would bring investors to the two or three stores and I would make sure there was a fair amount of people in the space and that's when I started talking about the language of community and the third place. And that's what I saw in Italy. The unlock and the epiphany, of course, it was the romance of espresso, but it was the sense of community. And that is what was happening very early on in the two stores in Seattle and the one in Vancouver. You could see it. What would people do after they bought the coffee? You said these are very small places. They would stand up because the two stores didn't have seating right away.

28:36They would stand up at the coffee bar at the window on Columbia Center. And it was at eight, nine o'clock in the morning, they were hanging out there. And then they often, late morning, they were coming back and you could just feel the relationship that people were having with one another around human connection. I know it sounds trite, but I could see it back then. And as I was talking to people about the investment opportunity, I was pointing out, look, what's happening here?

29:03something happening or some magic going on here. It's not just the coffee. The coffee was the conduit. All right, so we're at the pivotal moment. Starbucks and Pete gets into financial trouble. And the debt to equity was north of six to one for a company was tiny. Jerry comes to me and says, Jane and I, his wife are going to move to California and we're going to keep Pete's and I'm going to sell Starbucks. And my heart is pounding. I said, okay, and then he finished it and he says, I think you're the person to buy Starbucks. I said, that's fantastic. I don't have any money. You're going to give it to me. No money. How much is it? $3.8 million. Now we're in 86, 87. Now we get into a story I have told but not 100% because I protected the guy. But I'm going to tell it. I go out to raise money. I'm having a hard time. So Jerry gave me about, I think he gave me 90 days to raise $3.8 million.

30:10Around the second month, he just came to me and said, where are you with all this? And I think I had about half of it raised. I might have fived a bit and said I had a little bit more, but I didn't, I had about half. And he lays a bomb on me and says, how are, listen, we're in a tight situation here and one of your investors has put a cash, all cash offer on the table with no due diligence and wants to close right away.

30:40for him to take it over, not you. Yeah, yeah, I'm out. I'd be out. And I said, who is it? And he told me, I'll save that. And I'm absolutely annihilated, crushed, because I didn't have the wherewithal, and I could just envision, as soon as I heard that name, I knew it was over. I was in a basketball league at the Seattle Club. I'm playing basketball that night. My good friend, Scott Greenberg, who's an attorney, At a prestige firm in Seattle the gates firm. I'm basically crying to him after the game and telling him the story And he says you've got to come to the office tomorrow and meet our senior partner and tell him the story Bill Gates senior I said won't tighten incredible the other tight we force out of this there were three tights they were there were three tights there but here is the tight and there was

31:446 foot 7? He's 6 foot 7. He's a mountain of a man and very imposing. 9 o'clock in the morning, put a suit on. I must have been sweating through my shirt. I was just so anxious, so nervous. At the same time, so scared about what was going to happen. I go in there and I must have been trembling. I was just so nervous. I tell him exactly what I just told him. And he interrupts me and says, Howard, I'm just going to ask you two questions.

32:16is everything you told me true. I said, Mr. Gates, yes. Have you left anything out? No. And he says, come back in an hour. And I said, okay, to do what? He says, I'll see you in an hour. And so we walk out, I'm walking around. I think we probably went to Columbia Center to get a coffee and come back and go back with Scott. And Mr. Gates says, Scott, I'm gonna see how it'll long. And Scott leaves.

32:47Now I'm alone in his office. I hardly sit down and he says, we're going for a walk. And I said, where are we going? And he says we're going to see the man who was Sam Strom. One of your investors. One of the investors. We walk across street to the Rainier Tower, the Old Rainier Tower. I think Sam had one of the biggest offices we walk in there.

33:19And I swear, even though it's so many years later, I have a perfect, vivid account for what took place. Sam is sitting behind his desk, and this is what happened, because it was five minutes. Bill Gates, I remember he's a huge guy, leans over to the desk with his hands on Sam's desk and says, I don't know what you are planning.

33:48But whatever it is, it's not going to happen. And he says Howard Schultz is going to acquire Starbus coffee company. And he's never going to hear from you again. That was it. And we walk out. That's it. It's the whole thing. And so did you hear from Jerry that the bid had been dropped? We walk out. And I say to him. It's one little problem. He's still doing the money here. I say to Mr. K, what just happened? And he said, You're gonna buy Starbucks coffee company and my son and I are gonna help you. Wow. Hmm. And we raised the money and that's the story. I never spoke to Sam Strom again. I've never mentioned his name publicly. I never mentioned his name in his book.

34:42And I say it respectfully. I'm not trying to, but that's the story. And Sam, I mean, for, for anyone who doesn't live in the Seattle area, his name is on buildings and community centers. I mean, this revered philanthropist. I actually don't know his business background. How did he become the Titan that he was? He was involved in real estate and also in those auto stores. How did you get him off the Ilzornale cap table? Like, wasn't he an investor? He was still in the, he was in, he and his family were investors to the end until they got out. Oh, wow. So they got out.

35:12Looking back now. What do you think happened? Did he have any legitimate criticisms of you as running the company? No, he had a henchman who was his money guy who figured out we could just take this company and what do we need Howard Schultz for? Who is his young kid? And Sam had experience with retail with those auto stores. I see. So he could install some professional management from some other venture. Yeah. Run the playbook. Yeah. It would have been over. But the thing about Bill Gates.

35:42is I saw him socially 100 plus times. He never ever said anything public about what he did. He never took credit for it. So for listeners, Howard's told this elsewhere, but you spoke at the Microsoft CEO summit. You've recounted this story to the Fortune 500 CEOs and Bill Gates, the third Microsoft founder comes up to you afterwards and says, yeah, who was the guy?

36:10but Bill did not know the whole story. He didn't know any of it. He didn't know what his father had done for me. He's hearing it for the first time. And this is, you know, 2015 or something. So Starbucks, like, you would think... No, he didn't know. Someone would want to tell their family I played some significant role in this, but that's not the type of guy he was. Doug H. senior never told us all what he did for me. Again, the humility. Incredible lesson about humility. It's amazing. Yeah.

36:39And so were Bill Gates senior and Bill Gates the third investors in that three point eight million dollar round bill senior was but I don't know if there was part of bill or but yeah Microsoft and interesting So I asked Sherry about this when I was preparing for the episode and her recollection was it was something like One to two weeks before the three-month exclusivity for you was gonna be up and so you're basically like this event happens but now you need to come up with the money and you have this unbelievably short period of time to do so and so she said that you were calling everybody you knew she was calling her clients because she's a designer, calling her clients, trying to just find pockets of 50k here, 100k there anywhere you could to make it happen. But I had another angel who helped me by the name of Jack Rogers who became a lifelong friend who passed away a couple years ago.

37:35He was part of an investor group, and he brought them along. So the acquisition goes through. Yeah. August of 87. Yeah. We bought the six Starbucks stores. We had the three old, old journalist and there were two stores under construction. So at the end of the calendar year, we had 11 stores and 100 employees in 1987. All in the Northwest. Yeah. Meanwhile, the original Starbucks folks, they've now gone You went to California. When did Pete's open coffee bars? Many, many years later. So you weren't competing in a way. No. No. But this is one of the great observations, David. Ilzornale buys the Starbucks stores, rebrands Ilzornale incorporated as the Starbucks corporation. Yeah. And the original Starbucks buys...

38:28you know, had owned Pete's and now needs a new name. So it rebrands the company Pete's. So Pete's was actually Starbucks Starbucks was actually El Giornale. Yes. Amazing. Some stats just for listeners to understand the gravity of the situation. For the initial 1.6 million that you raised for El Giornale, you talked to 242 investors, 217 of which said no.

38:50So anybody who's gripping about their fundraising journey, you know, those are rookie numbers. But you asked me a question earlier about what did the years at Xerox teach me? So the rejection I was going through. The Italians turned me down. People in the US turned me down. Nobody would believe in the idea. It was like I was co-calling again at Xerox. The other thing that is worth pointing out is the Starbucks company with the six stores when they bought pizza with that six to one debt to equity ratio, basically backed themselves into a corner where now they had these big debt service payments to make. There was really no risk they could take or innovation that they could do because the whole business needed to spit out a certain amount of cash every month so they could pay down the debt. And so when you're in that situation, Starbucks

39:44in the 40 years ahead from this point in the story has tried all sorts of crazy things to become the business that it is today. And when you first created this combined company, you were pretty religious about no debt. No debt. I want any debt again because of my childhood. I was going to ask you, was that informed by what you had seen with the Starbucks situation or your childhood? No, it's total my childhood. My parents were always in debt. Bill collectors were always calling.

40:13And no, we never had any debt the entire time. Never. This is probably a good point in time to talk about the business model a little. Okay. You've alluded to kind of a stigma at least among potential investors and the original Starbucks founders of like the restaurant business. What did the economics of the business of the coffee bar business look like when you bought the Starbucks stores? So what did we buy? We had the stores, we had the brand name.

40:43and we had a roasting facility on airport way in Seattle. The ability to source and roast coffee and put that through the supply chain of a beverage gave us probably at the time an 80% gross margin. Wow. Yeah, that is not the quote-unquote restaurant business that people are imagining. And I could begin to see even early on the accretive nature of frequency.

41:12where I can see what was going on here is people were not coming for coffee in the morning anymore. They were starting. The morning rush was getting bigger. The need for more labor and I could sense that the business that Starbucks was in was going to be significantly in the back and the beverage and the romance of the theater and the third place was the hero. They didn't take us long to realize we had the beginning of lightning in the bottom. Even the best most successful restaurant you could possibly imagine. How many times are there most loyal customers going to come there in a week? There was a time in the northwest when we were really at our peak where the average customer was coming 18 times a month. Why should we phrase it? Maybe the most loyal was coming 18 times a month. There's some magic to this.

42:06idea that it's not a terribly expensive item. I think it's also research that said that it's, you know, sub 1% of someone's household income and often far less than that. But it is repeat and it is high gross margin. And so when you say lightning in a bottle, there's a cultural lightning in a bottle, but there's also this like ridiculous business model where the way it shows up is your stores. Basically, from this point forward for all of Starbucks's life, you build a new store, and the profits from that store would totally cover the costs within two years, and often a year and a half. But I'll tell you the economic model that we applied to every single store we were opening. By the way, I chose the first 500 locations myself. I was in it in so many ways. But the economic model, when we went public in 1992, now I'm just, when they heard the models, we'd never seen a model like that.

43:00And the model basically was a sales to investment ratio of two to one. And a operating profit of 20%. So what does that mean sales to investment ratio? So if the sales were a million dollars, the investment was 500,000, just the sales to about had to be a two to one. Wow. And year one of operation. Yes. And the operating profit was north of 20%. Wow.

43:24with cash on cash return. So yeah, you get that two years or less, maybe. The retail world had never seen a model. There was no physical storefront that could have had this business model before this. Early on, it became clear to us that customers were also starting to customize the beverage on their own. So we were just, the priest, it was behind the counter and somebody would say, can you put something else in there? Yeah, what do you want?

43:50And then, so that just started, you know, the average ticket started growing as a result of the customers personalizing and customizing their beverage. And to be clear, like the era of Starbucks we are in right now, you produce drip coffee and you produce espresso. And you can put that espresso in frothed milk. And that's basically your options. Yeah. Like none of this, you know, yeah, exactly. But can I take on a steak I made? Please. Please. When Ilternale was getting ready to open, It's a standard cup in the world was that terrible Styrofoam cup that is used in diners in New York City. Remember that cup? Yeah. I put boiling water into that cup. Five minutes later, the cup is starting to turn like a golden color because of the chemical. It can't be good for your insides or the taste of the cup. And so we had to find, we had to change the cup. This is such a smart move.

44:48in retrospect, but we were just trying to figure out, now, no one in America that isn't a paper business had any kind of cup or lid that was compatible with what I was trying to do. In fact, they didn't understand it. Why not use the cup that exists? Because it doesn't taste good. And it doesn't feel right. Right, why go to the trouble of, you know, this...

45:12perfected roast of these beautifully sourced arabica beans from all these farmers if you're going to pour it into styrofoam. Yeah. Okay. So people think you were a hippie. Like when you were tell these they're like, are you on the list here? So we went to Chicago to the international paper company. And they had a cup, but the cup didn't have a lid. A compatible lid. And so we found, they found a lid.

45:41That beautiful sift lid which is now ubiquitous in the world Howard Schultz should have said to them. I want an exclusive on that Because that lid became the standard for the world If I would have just understood that the other thing I didn't do is we introduced cafe latte to the to America We didn't trademark it. You know, we trademarked Frappuccino later on, but we didn't trademark cafe latte You know, I wasn't thinking You got enough right. You don't even get a lot right. No, I just I missed it. When the sizing, Grande Venti. Oh, that was the hidden trainer. Yeah. Right. When did that start? There was a brilliant, brilliant guy who was the architect of the name Starbucks, named Terry Heckler in Seattle. And he was a fantastic design guy. And we're just sitting one day and I'm just talking about the importance of language.

46:37We got to get the language right and we got the cup got to get the language And we just started talking about changing it from the pedestrian words of small medium-large To what it became which was short tall and grande People made fun of it, but they loved it was venti not an original venti we didn't have that size when we started that was later on Wow, who would have thought somebody wanted to this is America. Yeah, so my one more question on this writing in the customer's name on the cup. That didn't come from me. As the stores got busier and busier, the Reese's were having a hard time with whose cup is it? What are we gonna do? And someone at Starbucks, I don't know who it was, started writing names on the cup, writing names. And it just became standard. So much of Starbucks success came from customers asking for things we weren't doing. And Starbucks

47:37employees who became partners in 91, understanding the business better than me. And this is all like, you know, to my mind, just starting to create this incredible flywheel, right? If you've got this 80% gross margin business, where the key lever is repeat loyal customer visits, you've got customization that is making customers more loyal and increasing your margin at the same time because you can charge more for it. You've got the interpersonal relationship with The barista is sure, but also even as you scale, I mean the name on the cup, that's something that scales even as thousands and thousands of people come into the store. The intimacy with the customer and the barista became a very powerful component of the equity of the experience. And I've always thought in so many ways Starbucks became the first experiential brand at scale. Wouldn't it spend any money on marketing? Zero.

48:38There was no money for market in the cup. The iconic cup became a badge of honor because people were doing something that was new and novel and walking in the street with it. And people, you know, what is that? I was a lot of that kind of stuff. It's your free billboard. Yeah. It's a freeboard product. Perfect. Wow. All right, listeners. Now is a great time to talk about a new partner of ours here on acquired.

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49:34They embedded inside a massive law firm for months. They sat with the lawyers just watching how the work really gets done. And that's how you get features that customers love like tabular review where you...

49:47drop in a folder of hundreds of contracts and it pulls every key term into a grid a lawyer can actually work with. Lagores Bed here is interesting. Since it lets each lawyer handle more complexity, any given person can increase the quality of their work and do higher value work, and this means that the pie can grow even as each individual task takes less time.

50:06And they recently launched LaGora agent offering greater intelligence and performance. The agent lets lawyers set an objective. Then it can handle the planning and the execution and delivery of the final product. Legal teams get to maintain full control and transparency since they're still involved where judgment is required. And LaGora works where you already work. You can use it within Microsoft Word while redlining or drafting. The early LaGora numbers essentially speak for themselves when they have a head-to-head pilot with their top competitor they win 70% of the time LaGora now has over a hundred thousand lawyers on the platform from 1200 legal teams in 50 countries and crazily they went from one million to a hundred million in ARR in about 18 months truly insane numbers and that is the real test

50:59Plenty of things demo well, but the question is whether a busy associate actually reaches for it during crunch time or whether a partner trusts it before going into a conversation with a major client. If your legal team wants to check it out, whether you're a law firm or you're in house at a company, you can learn more at logora.com slash acquired and just tell them that Ben and David sent you. So in this era, I mean, you must just be getting more and more excited every day. Oh, I was out of my mind. So David Howard sent me, there's a 1988, I can't believe this was filmed, but a 1988 shareholder and employee meeting where it's great. The whole thing's like an hour and a half. It's all there. And you are using all the same language that you used today back in 1988.

51:45We focus on our people, those people delight the customer or the customer, you know, delights the shareholder or then satisfies the shareholder. And the conviction that you have, it's like watching a preacher, you're up there, you've got, I think, 11 stores or something and you're like, you have no idea what we have here. We are on top of something that is going to change and you don't say the world, America. And this thing can become America's coffee house. And it was interesting because I think the whole room was already scared of your ambition of, you know, going nationwide with this thing that there did not exist another example of a national coffee house chain. Everything was just these little cities, these small markets. And there's this great quote that you have at the end of the meeting that says, the company since 1971 has been growing at a very, very slow pace.

52:41As a result of that, you combine Il Giornale and Starbucks together. We're gonna take your six stores that you've built in 17 years and we're gonna go to 26 in one year and we're gonna go to over 100 in five years. And that must have just sounded bonkers. But that is literally what happened. That's what happened. Like the pace of growth, approximately you just doubled stores year over year over year. Was there some moment in 88, 89, 90 where you're just like looking around realizing We must expand as fast as we possibly can because this concept is the concept the world needs now and if we don't pull out all the stops, someone else is going to do it. There were regional competitors who were making noise about doing what we were aspiring to do and I was very mindful because one of them was franchising. That was Gloria Jeans out of Chicago and at one point I think they had more stores than we did.

53:40because of the franchising opportunity. And that's one of the reasons why I went to Chicago as well in the 8788. Because Chicago was the first market outside of Seattle in Vancouver, right? Yes. Even before LA. Yeah. And it didn't work right away. Huh. Howard B. Hart should be credited with so much of the cultural texture and the tapestry of the humanity of the company said, I will go to Chicago and fix it. He went to Chicago.

54:10and stayed in Chicago through the winter and recalibrated the mistakes we're making. And of course, he and Oren were so instrumental into the loneliness that exists as an entrepreneur and their ability to help me build the company that you know today. Yeah, so I have in my script here, this is literally labeled the H2O era.

54:36For anyone who was a partner at Starbucks sort of knows what I'm talking about and anybody else outside has no idea but there's two howards there's Howard Schultz and Howard Behar and Howard Behar joined in 1989 or in Smith joined in 1990 and the way that it looks to me from the outside and you told me if this is right you were sort of the vision and ambition that would almost like take any ambition that anybody else had and force them to think bigger and faster okay and then Howard Behar Was in many ways the soul like he brought the idea of servant leadership he brought the idea of Nothing else matters if we aren't people first and obviously that became a huge tenant of Starbucks as we knew it through the 90s and 2000s, but it seems like it really arrived with him and then Orin is like a numbers God No, he was the adult in the room more than the numbers he had the style. He was quiet. He was a gentleman He was the only MBA in the company

55:32But he was the wise man who behind the doors could say to me and Howard, you're both full of shit. We're not doing that. And we listened. More or less. And was it true that the three of you had dinner every Monday night for a decade? More or less, that is true. Sometimes more than once, if we had a crisis or two, which generally we did, or we had a disagreement. There's a lot of creative conflict, especially between Howard and I.

56:03Because he had to operate what we were trying to do and at times he thought we were growing too fast or head of the resources. Because he was basically training all these operators, the sort of management fleet of the company. He was building the operating system for us to be able to open the store, design the stores, which, more or less, I had done, build them, operate them, train them and create the system to handle the flow of customers.

56:31So he had his job was much harder than mine. Speaking of system, what did your technology look like at this point? Oh, don't embarrass him. No, there was no, there was no technology. No. Were you running like a Oracle system? No, no, no. We're talking paper. It was mostly manual. Wow. Yeah. I mean, that eventually when they did get point of sale terminals, they were dospaced all the way through like 2008, right? Yes, yes.

56:59Like the iPhone was out and you guys had DOS based point of sale systems. Sounds right. But obviously technology was not the secret source. I'm foreshadowing here the future of the company. Yeah. Yeah. So let's take it forward from this 8088990. The first market after Chicago after you sort of righted that ship that you decide to enter on the West Coast is LA. That's the big fight between Howard and I. I don't think I realized this big fight. I just felt in my bones we had to go to LA.

57:28and he said, we're not ready for LA. We're going to San Diego. San Diego? Who's in San Diego? No, we're not going to San Diego, one LA. And I've got the location. You went to play in the majors. Yeah. So we had a meeting about it and it erupted into a bad scene. And one thing led to another, we did go to LA. I'm shocked. We did go to LA. It was fine.

58:00And you're conviction of we have to play with that for the equity of the brand I could see I can envision the warm weather and everyone walking around with our cups and the media and the celebrities and just the iconic way and there was nothing in the market nothing at all that even appeared to be in the business that we were in and anyone who was doing it was not doing it well We had to go and even though we maybe were not ready We just had to do it And we did. And I think Howard would agree today that that ended up in the right decision. And LA, the halo on Starbucks from Seattle, the Vancouver and Chicago was nothing. When we went to LA it just exploded because celebrities embrace Starbucks was there an intentional strategy to

58:54create sort of a luxury brand out of Starbucks that like the cool people were carrying the Starbucks cup. It might be a little bit expensive, but you can afford it. No, there was no, I can never remember a discussion about segmentation of the brand because we wanted Starbucks to be accessible to all. You'd have a CEO of a company and the person behind them was a blue collar truck driver because everyone could afford the affordable luxury of Starbucks at the time.

59:25When you say affordable luxury, what about it was luxury? The quality of the coffee. The experience. And what it felt like to walk around with that cup at the time. It was a badge. It was like you were in the know. Yeah. What's not a badge of luxury? It was just like something new. So it became a trope for decades now that, you know, it's, oh, it's a $6 latte or an $8 latte or 10. Where does that come from?

59:56In your mind, is Starbucks premium priced? Is there actually a Starbucks gets to charge a little bit more because the brand has more cash A or is that just completely a farce or myth? I think the pricing of Starbucks was directly linked to the economic model that I alluded to earlier and the rising cost of labor rent and the fiduciary responsibility that we all felt to achieving the promise we had to our shareholders. I'm now talking about as a public company. There certainly was a fair amount of discussion all the time about the sensitivity of the price points. And I think in later years, maybe in the last couple of years, given the consumer inflationary time, I think it's become a bit of a problem.

1:00:56And certainly, I've always said as Starbucks was growing, that the ubiquity of Starbucks was an enemy to the company. And the challenge was we have to figure out a way to ensure the fact that we are getting smaller as we're getting bigger. And specifically, how do we maintain intimacy and the currency of trust with our customers and our people? That unto itself is kind of the capsule.

1:01:26of making sure that the growth doesn't become so intoxicating and so seductive that we lose sight of the really secret of the company which was the internal culture and values which built the brand and built the relationship with the customer. Can you tell us about the people? This is such a huge pillar to our minds of building Starbucks. Again, we started this conversation talking about childhood. I really want to build a different kind of company.

1:01:56and how do I do that in a way that provides respect and dignity because I was so imprinted with how my father felt disrespected, devalued, and kind of vilified as an uneducated, blue collar veteran working in a series of jobs that he just never made it and living through the dysfunction of a poor family always under pressure with money. And so I wanted to kind of crack the code on how do we create benefits that would in a way take the company in direction, no one's ever been in before. And so early on we started talking about exceeding the expectations of our people so they can exceed the expectations of the customer. And the first time we actually were able to manifest that,

1:02:55was a year before the IPO and that was an incredible struggle because I had on my board two venture capitals and I was proposing something that had never been done before and that was I wanted to give equity in a form of stock options to every single employee in the company and they just said what what are you talking about we're not doing that and so the fight became ultimately we gave 14% of everyone's base pay in the form of stock options at the end of the year based on the strike price And I had to do it the year before the IPO had to, so everyone wouldn't miss it. And I think the turning point of the culture of the company was the day we announced that, and we became partners. And to the credit of Craig Foley who was the VC and Jamie Shannon, they believed that performance would be enhanced, attrition would be lowered, and that the brand would just elevate as a result of that.

1:03:54and it was true, completely true. That changed Starbucks for decades. And along with some other events based on doing the right thing. I mean, the healthcare for part-time workers. So then healthcare, I think, 25 years before the Affordable Care Act, what we did with the company for the health insurance, and that also, I grew up in a family with no health insurance. And I saw what happened.

1:04:22So all of that is that origin story of mine of and the tragedies my father passed away and never saw what we're able to do. Do you want the stats on? That initial employees stock grant. I love to hear it. So the program was called Beanstalk listeners that the great name Howard was alluding to amazing name.

1:04:43So in 1988, the health benefits roll out even to part-time employees, including gay couples and domestic partnerships. I believe the first of its kind. That was a 33 store company at that point. A few years later, you would grow into 55 stores. You did the LA expansion. And then in 1991, which is the year before the IPO, Beanstock happens. Equity in the form of stock options goes out to everyone working 20 plus hours a week. There were 1,300 employees at the time.

1:05:13And I believe it was the first time in history that part-time employees were offered a program like this. So those initial grants, the strike price was $6 per share. Today, as we speak, the share price is $77, but there have been six splits since then, which comes out to a 64X. So that initial grant has 800X. Since even the part-time employees in Buristas were offered the opportunity to buy Starbucks stock.

1:05:43A lawyer, I think Scott Greenberg, at the time, came to me and said, we can't do this unless we get approval from the SEC because we were over 500 shareholders. So, you know, we've studied lots of amazing companies on this show who have lots and lots different business models. But one thing that just kept striking us as we were preparing for Starbucks are the similarities to...

1:06:07your neighbor here in the Northwest in Costco. Costco, right? And how you treat your people specifically. That's not by accident. Both from a, it's the right thing to do perspective and the amazing business model benefit of the retaining employees. I mean, it's so expensive to train a new employee. It's not expensive to keep an existing employee. And so you can just pay people more if you keep them for longer. You know, you just basically have extra money lying around is what Costco discovered.

1:06:35There's so much about Starbucks to David's point that's similar to Costco. Did you ever speak with Jeff Brockman or Jim Senegal or any of those guys about this concept? Do you know the answer to that? No, we don't know the answer to this, but I don't know it. First, Jeff Brockman invested in Starbucks in the round to buy Starbucks in that 87 round. That's when I met Jeff for the first time. Jeff became a board member.

1:07:05of the early imprinting of Starbucks, and clearly a mentor, mentor of mine, and then he introduced me to Jim Sinekhal, and so there were many moments of me sitting with Jeff and Jim, including the huge decision to put Starbucks coffee in Costco, which there was a revolt inside the halls of Starbucks saying no effing way.

1:07:34Wow. And we did it. And Jeff and Jim took me to a parking lot in Kirkland when I said, I don't know if we can do this. I don't know if I can sell it inside. I don't know. Okay. Meet us on a Sunday morning, whatever it was. Look at the cars. These are your customers. In fact, putting Starbucks in Costco, we were able to measure directly the increase in volume in the stores on the east side.

1:08:05as a result of the proximity to the Costco store. You sold beans. We sold beans in Costco. Yes. And that brand awareness of I buy Starbucks beans at home meant that that group of people went to the stores. Coffee by business. Because we introduced thousands of beverage customers to Costco through the beans. Wow. So Jeff and Jim were instrumental in so many things. And we're so kind to me as a young kid.

1:08:36Then we went nationwide with Costco. So this is a thing that I think many people don't realize now that Starbucks is ubiquitous. We sort of forget about this time when it wasn't and where people had to find some way to experience Starbucks. You know, you only get a few stores in each of these cities. You're only in a few cities, but there are ways to scale brand awareness. And so you can do things like become the official coffee of United Airlines or you know be in Costco's all over the US. You did this a number of times. And I feel like the rest of the world did not catch on to what you were doing was just finding little billboards everywhere where you could put the Starbucks logo and sort of create that ubiquity. Yeah, if you thought the Costco revolt was high, you can imagine when I said

1:09:29We have an opportunity for United Airlines. People thought that was absolutely blasphemy. Don't do that. And again, the exposure and the opportunity to surprise and delight customers in places that they've never had anything close to good coffee. All these things, when you consider, we didn't spend a dollar, a dollar of marketing dollars, effort. And so the reputation of the company was built, basically, word of mouth.

1:09:57both inside our stores and exactly right in places that we could surprise the customer. And then we also started putting Starbucks coffee in grocery stores, which was the other thing. Because remember, we were building a beverage business, right? And we were then going back to our core business in new channels of distribution.

1:10:18It's like the ultimate goal is to capture those margin dollars from selling cups of coffees in the stores that you operate but there's all these other things that you can do that actually might spit off some profit dollars but at the very least it's a break even way to do customer acquisition and brand building in the rest of the world. I don't know what our cost of customer acquisition was back then but it was low.

1:10:37Well, you weren't spending any money on marketing. But United Airlines was paying you for coffee. I assume. I don't know exactly how they went down, but yeah, I have to assume that Barnes and Noble... Barnes and I was basically the same thing. Barnes and I was a different deal. I met Len Riggio, the founder of Barnes and Noble, very interesting guy, very smart guy, great merchant, and we just started talking. He was from Brooklyn. I was from Brooklyn. We had a natural kind of relationship, and I said, What do you think about us opening Starbucks inside bronze a noble given you are the ultimate third place is what we are and it just again became a natural extension of our stores We have a fun piece of trivia that you may know related to Costco Do you know where Jeff Bezos and Jim Senegal met for the first time? Sounds like in a Costco

1:11:30not in Costco in the Starbucks in the Barnes and Noble in Bellevue did not know that and that you know led to so many things Amazon Prime among them yeah and I still am friendly with Jim synagogue today I mean your company's rhyme in so many ways it's it's that's not surprising at all I want to talk a little bit before we get to the IPO here about what the strategy was when you expanded market by market. Did you try to sprinkle a few stores in and see? Did you try to move into a market with force and be the dominant coffee house chain in that city? And in particular, it could be worth talking about Boston. Well, Boston's an anomaly because of the acquisition, but Bihar was so strident in not expanding to multiple markets at once. And he was 100% right. And so we didn't

1:12:24We went to Chicago, went to LA, and we stayed there for quite a while, went to Portland. We weren't ready for New York City in terms of the issues there, but we were very diligent. You went to DC first. We were not expanding to multiple markets until we had enough evidence in the existing market that we had success, and we weren't going to compound the growth in another market with problems that we're having in the existing one.

1:12:54Hmm, and I think that's all be her because he was he was managing all the operations Boston was very different. We had a very strong high quality competitor called the coffee connection in Boston with a owner operator in George Howell who was not unlike Alfred Pete kind of a gospel of coffee culture on East Coast and We knew Boston was going to be tough to start bucks to enter. We also had Dunkin' Donuts there. Like a lot of the good real estate was taken by the coffee section, right? Yeah. And so George and I never saw eye to eye, but it was clear that if we came to Boston in a significant way, we were going to impact his business. And I think to his credit, he was willing to sell. So coffee connection was the first acquisition. And we had to

1:13:51tread very lightly after the acquisition because of the loyalty and be careful with the name and, you know, Solicit Georgia's help and advice, and also we needed him to kind of validate for us what we're trying to do. And ultimately it ended up being a very good strategy. Well, it seemed like I think the numbers are. It was a little bit after IPO in 94, $23 million. They had 23 locations, and they were doing 16 million a year in revenue. So if you just look at like the purchase. I think it was one-time sales. Maybe a little over one-time sales. And the original Starbucks, ironically enough, was exactly at one-time sales, right? That's what you bought it from the founders for. If they had the lock on all the best real estate, and they had burned all the capital, figuring out what stores we should be in, what stores we shouldn't be in, and then you just get to move into that market for one-time sales, 1.5, whatever it is, with all that already figured out. That's pretty amazing. It probably seemed high at the time, though.

1:14:50I'm sure it did. Isn't that the thing about valuations? It always seemed like in the good old days everything was undervalued. Let's talk about the IPO. It seems like you knew the moment that you bought Starbucks from the founders. This is going to be a public company. I thought so. There was so much about being a public company that meant something to me personally.

1:15:18that it validated the company it validated me my own shame and security as a kid so that was a I was driving force all along certainly the the year before with beanstalk as an indication what I was planning if beanstalk was turned down I would I would have waited I just had to that had to be done I think we only had a couple of quarters of profitability and I think we had about 130 stores And what was the revenue at the time? I don't remember exactly. I know what the market cap was a day went public. I think you ended up doing 93 million that year, but the year before, you know, was 50 million or something like that. Companies went public when they were smaller back then, but you were a small cap IPO. Yeah, we were. And, you know, we got turned down by Goldman Sachs. You know that. I did not know that. I couldn't believe it. I mean, I just, I wanted Goldman Sachs as the

1:16:17I just, you know, they were the patina on the prospectus to have Goldman Sachs. It would be a very Starbucks thing for Goldman Sachs to be the elite left. Well, blank fine. I had a good friend who was a senior partner there who since passed away. I thought I had it locked. I mean, it was just so many things about it in New York, everything. And they said, no, you're too small.

1:16:42Well, the thing that Dan Levitton told us years ago when we did an episode on the Starbucks IPO was that you were really only considering smaller banks because it was going to be a smaller IP. Well, I was considering because golf is extra. I told you I had no choice. I had no choice. And Brahman at the time was not a big fan of Wertheim Schroeder, which was Dan Levitton's thing. And so Alex Brown became the lead. But I also, you know, I had my own ego attached to this.

1:17:09I had so much fun on the, you know, on the road show. I was just in my element, you know. I was looking up. I was trying to figure out, you know, your public comps at the time. I think there were zero publicly traded coffee companies, not bean companies, not retailers, not coffee house chains. I mean, truly unheard of. So when you're going on this road show, I think people, of course, are mystified. There's like, there's literally no public companies like yours. You know, investor education problem, right?

1:17:34Yeah, I think we had to take them through everything. We had the product there. You know, we served coffee. I gave them the whole show. We had a short video that was probably in black and white. The comp always was a restaurant and I was always fighting. We're not a restaurant. We're a hybrid retailer. I never referred to us as a cafe. It was always a store. We are a store. We are merchants. Fascinating. I mean, I go there and eat many, many meals sitting in your store. Yeah.

1:18:04But as we've been talking about, I mean, the economics, you were a store. We were a store. We were a retail store. So Howard, I'm going to take us through the IPO. You know, you're the first publicly traded coffee company. You do end up doing 93 million in revenue that year. Do you remember the exact price? Yes. I mean, we were, we went out at $17 and the price was 21. The market cap, I think, was $250 million. Can you imagine today a $250 million market cap company going public and people considering that a success? I mean, this is a great At the time for your employees how crazy is that what 12 18 months before they I guess 12 months before it was yeah, six bucks a share triple their money Yeah, fantastic for what and that was when you started calling them partners right when they became 91 as soon as being stuck was instituted it was everyone's a partner and it's that we did the lowercase when titles all became no everyone's whole case from the game. Oh, I'd have respect everyone's all case listeners when you um

1:19:01when you look up a Starbucks employee on LinkedIn, it always looks like, is that a typo? And then you realize there's a pattern that all employees always put lowercase titles. So another interesting thing about the, I was reading the S1 last night, the management team inclusive of you owned 18%, but only nine to 10% of that was you personally. So the rest of the management team owned just as much as you did as the founder.

1:19:30That does feel unusually high. Do you think that that played a role in sort of getting people's buy-in and getting them to bleed Starbucks as much as you did? Not intentionally, no. Okay, not a strategy. No, that was not a strategy. Interesting.

1:19:47So then from there you open in Washington DC on the East Coast. I think that the reason you picked DC was because your mail order business was strong there. So you sort of had proprietary data to know that that was going to be a good coffee city. I don't know how you found that up, but that's accurate. In 1995 you crossed 500 stores. You had just bought the coffee connection as we talked about in Boston, and they had one asset that was perhaps much more valuable than any of the real estate or any of the sales that you would generate from there, they owned the trademark on the word Frappuccino. And I'm so smart that I looked at that Frappuccino with disdain. Really? I didn't like the name. I didn't like the beverage. I didn't think it was appropriate for Starbucks. And because I just saw Starbucks in such a purity with regard to coffee. And I was wrong. Dead wrong, obviously.

1:20:43Putting myself in your shoes back then, now Starbucks and Frappuccino are like a synonym. It's like you can't disentangle them, but yeah, it's very different than completely different blended cold drink. That was the first cold drink we've ever introduced. It was not a coffee-forward beverage. When we introduced it in Southern California, it was just, it went crazy. So what changed your mind to green light it? I didn't have a choice.

1:21:11Coffee connection had it, then we had it in Boston. People wanted it. And I just went along. And you ended up like reformulating it, right? It wasn't exactly. A store manager in Santa Monica reformatted it. And she was on it. I think Howard B. Hart loved it. People in California loved it. There's a fantastic story about Frappuccino because of what we did with it. Not in its existing form and retail, but what we ended up doing with it in terms of...

1:21:39leveraging the brand and distribution. That's another great story. Was that your first bottled drink in retail? Yeah, yeah. So I went to Atlanta and Pepsi in the same day. I went to being Coke. I went to Coke. I went to Pepsi in the same day. The Coke meeting was a meeting lasted less than 30 minutes. I can't remember who I met with. They dismissed me.

1:22:06Didn't view Starbucks, didn't understand what I was trying to do and didn't give me much time to even explain it. And then I went to Pepsi. And this is 95-ish. Mid-90s. 500 stores, your public company. But in East Coast, Starbucks wasn't really well-known. So I went to Pepsi and purchased New York, met Roger Rico, the iconic CEO, and Craig Weather up the present of Pepsi. They love the idea.

1:22:35and we started talking about this. Subsequently, Craig Weatherabai and I, on a napkin, I swear, shook hands and created a multi-billion dollar business for Pepsi and Starbucks and a 50-50JV and bottle prep, you know. And Craig Weatherab deserves all the credit for that. And then Craig became a board member of Starbucks. And Roger and I were friends until his death and served on the DreamWorks board together.

1:23:05How did you find yourself at co-competsy pitching a bottled beverage? And was there an internal revolt? Because I could imagine people saying this is a bridge too far. I don't think people knew what I was even doing. I mean, I think maybe a few people, you know, I just had the thought we got to put this in a bottle. We have to put this in a bottle. And this product, if I'm remembering right, was so successful, the instant that it hit shorts or shelves, you had to pull it all off because you needed to like...

1:23:31Create new manufacturing processes and spin up new factories in order to make enough to actually satisfy demand basically correct and we also early on had a recall where would they found glass in the bottle and Pepsi to its credit took all the blame for that and fixed it but yeah, it was from minute one the the power of Starbucks and bottle Frappuccino and doing something we had never known it was no bottle coffee let alone And again, just like the Costco story and the United Airlines story, the flywheel of the awareness and people drinking something they could enjoy at home or at work. Again, it just created another level of velocity on the brand. I mean, I'm just thinking about between the cups, but then United Airlines and Costco and the CPG products, it's gotta have been like,

1:24:3150 billion Starbucks logos printed. I'm sure that was maybe more. I'm just I'm sure I could estimate it better. But you can see where the the the the the size of the equity of the brand was much bigger than the size of the company much bigger right because at this point you were like 800 stores. Yes, then something else happened. And that is we wake up one day and someone says Starbucks is in a movie.

1:25:01and we said, what movie? You've got mail. That wasn't coordinated? First of all, Starbucks never paid for placement. Someone must have approved it. I knew nothing about it. And then someone said, you got to see this movie Starbucks all over it. I said, what movie? Tom Hanks, you've got mail with Meg Ryan. I knew nothing about it. It was just another thing where it was just like a little fairy dust on the brand. Did you know that it was like the good old days where you're like, this is just like...

1:25:30We were so in the mud, we were so in it that we didn't have time to look up. And we were just running so fast, so hard. When you're growing at this pace, it's almost virtually impossible to catch the growth in terms of the infrastructure. And so you're constantly back and forth trying to create that fragile balance between the seductive nature and the intoxication of growth and success, and the foundation necessary to support it, and not falling too far behind where you lose it. But you never are in a position, at least we were never in a position, we were ahead of it, never. And so there was a constant push, and I think this is where Orin was the wise man in the room to say, we just can't do that now.

1:26:28We don't have the infrastructure, we don't have the people, we don't have the systems. And I'd be screaming, we gotta do it. If we don't do it, someone else can do it, we gotta do it. And that takes us to international. We weren't ready for that. Yeah, so I wanna put a bow on Frappuccino. The year after it launched in 1996, Frappuccino's were 7% of revenue.

1:26:48which I can attest to. Maybe fresh. I had my first with that frappuccino. Tall mocha frappuccino with whipped cream and a little chocolate drizzle on top. And now here I am drinking. What are we drinking here? You're drinking coffee from India. Yeah, no, no cream. No, no, no, no, no, no. And so the frappuccino began my journey to the good stuff. So that's the frappuccino story.

1:27:1696, 97, 98. I mean, this is the international story. So I love the Japan story. You've told this to me before, but I'd love to. Okay. There's a couple of things about this. I started taking a couple of trips to Europe and Asia just to get a sense of what the opportunity would be and how would we do it? I quickly wrote off Europe.

1:27:45because coffee was there. I didn't think we could possibly enter as an American company. And so we just took your policy. It's gonna be like a American luxury leather goods company coming in and competing with their mess. Yeah, not gonna happen. And so we said we just took it off the map. And then we narrowed our focus very quickly on Japan. Japan had a couple of thousand coffee stores named Doutour.

1:28:13You walk in there, and it was smoke-filled, mostly men, dark, but they were successful. And so I said to the board, we want to go to Japan. The board was incredibly resistant to the idea. Why? You've got all this white space in America. There's no need to do this at the time. And I just said, okay, look, well, and so one thing led to another, and my board member said, if you're considering this, higher and outside resource to do a study. I was a little bit about that. Are there some consultants you could possibly pay to help this? We hired a consultant who came back with a big book presented it to the board. I had a preview and it basically was, this is a non-starter, you can't possibly succeed there. In the meeting, I could feel my blood just boiling because

1:29:10With every statement it was getting worse like the economics won't work No one in Japan will ever walk industry with a cup of coffee they would lose face You're no smoking policy, which we had from the beginning is a non-starter and you can't afford the economics to rent don't go well that only made me More furious like they've never met you and more intentional and so We would we kept thinking about this and then one day we get a handwritten letter from a Japanese company and the founder of the company Ujisan had a LA restaurant and he was enamored with Starbucks We sit down with them. We fall in love with him and we weren't ready, but we decided We're gonna give it a shot. We go to Tokyo. We meet him

1:30:14we ended up forming a JV and you know the folklore starbucks which is not that unrealistic is the reason we went to japan as an international market is because i had direct flight to see out that was the extent of our understanding now we open up in august if you've been a tokyo in august it's hot it's like ninety five degree temperature and 100% humidity. It's like getting out of a New York City subway in the middle of August. As soon as you walk out, you need a shower. It's going to be a tough opening because of the hot weather. I'm very concerned about it. I get back to my hotel room and I have a message that CNN is covering the opening life, or they got cameras. High-risk high-roars. Wow. I'm so nervous. At 6 a.m., we get in the car.

1:31:16It's so hot. The tie around my neck feels like a noose. We're driving up to the store in the Ginza and it's like 200 people online. And I turned to the translator and I said, did he hire extras? I cut the ribbon and a young man who slept over the night before to be the first person as a college student speaks knowingly. He rushes to the front of the line and I follow him.

1:31:46No English and he says double tall latte. As God is my witness just like that. And I said, how did they know? And Japan was an extraordinary success from minute one. We got 2,000 stores there. I was there a lot two months ago. Incredible. We have a roastery there. Why were there people lined up around the block? Why did it work so well instantly?

1:32:14Was it a strong coffee culture or the coffee? No, it was the iconic reputation and anticipation of something that they had convinced themselves Was unique proprietary not in Tokyo not in Japan that they wanted to have and that cup but by the way the research That cup was all over Tokyo in months everyone was walking around that cup And this is nine years after you bought the six stores. It has turned into this icon. In all the events we just covered, Starbucks has already become Starbucks. It is already this globally desirable brand, thereby 1996. I honestly haven't thought about it in that way, but... That's so fast. I mean, to build something... This seems fast to us, I bet. The parallels to the Microsoft story are just like...

1:33:14So, Japan was Microsoft's first international market. Did not know that. It was half their business and it started in the same way. Bill and Paul got a cold call from Kenishi. He was a guy in Japan who had somehow gotten a hold of the basic interpreter, loved it, and said, I'm so passionate about this. I want to bring it to Japan. 50% of Microsoft's revenue for the first at least five years. And they stayed 50% international permanently. That's what took them.

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1:35:33So Japan's 96 in 97 you cross a thousand stores globally you're getting your feet under you you're saying okay international is gonna be a thing In 1999 you 2000 stores 2000 stores because we had a goal of 2000 by 2000 we beat it by year 99 you also open in Beijing What's the calculus on entering China and did you realize it could become such a pillar of the company like it is today I honestly don't think we had any real understanding of what we were getting into. And we went there with a partner that didn't work out. I should tell you that we had a theory of the case that any international market that we opened that didn't speak English, we needed a partner. And so, Japan was a partner successful. And we entered in a partnership in China early on that was not successful, did not share our values and we got out.

1:36:34and ended up going closed all the stores. No, no, we got out of the partnership bottom out and became company owned. And so the legal to do that to be an American owned company in China. Yeah, but we struggled in China for almost a decade lost money. It was tremendous pressure inside the company of closed China until Belinda Wang, maybe the most valuable person in the company from my view. Really? Yeah.

1:37:06When did Belinda get involved with the end? It was working. She started with Starbucks in Singapore, but she was working in Hong Kong. We were open in Hong Kong. And I saw something in her. It was just an extraordinary operator and had a touch with people. And I said, and we were dying in China. We were really in trouble. Would you come to China and run it? And she said, I would consider doing that.

1:37:35But you've got to decentralize it. And we couldn't do that right away. It was just too much. But she changed the course of history for Starbucks and China. What year was that? That she took over the role? I think it's about a decade after we opened. Okay. Well, I asked you still there today. I asked because I want to come back to it. There's a whole interim, you know, between 2000 and 2008, where you are not the CEO of the company. Right. So in 2000, I mean, if If you've been listening to this episode, the theme that should be occurring to you is, oh my god, basically everything worked. And I know it didn't feel like that on the inside. You read all those investment banking reports, and it's like, hey, Starbucks, here's all these price targets for Starbucks, and here's what we think they're going to do in earnings, and oh, they beat it again. And like, I don't know, 30, 40 quarters in a row, it's just like this. I would say perfectly predictable, except you actually kept exceeding the expectations. It wasn't predictable.

1:38:35quarterly conference calls. I see you. A hundred. Yeah, that's a lot. By that, that's a lot of earnings prep because each one of those has what two weeks before it. The truth is the majority of those were no script, which became the lawyers took over after that many years, but no script, which is your preferred communication style. It seems like whenever I see you up speaking, there's no teleprompters. It's from the heart. So at this point, I don't want to say it would be incorrect to say Starbucks is running itself, but like it's in a great place. Right. And you step into the role of, is it executive chairman, chairman, executive chairman with orange as a CEO in 2000? Yeah. What was your, I was, I was, I think I was physically and emotionally exhausted. Um, kids were getting older. I had missed a lot. Just think about all the things we're doing. And I had so much confidence in orange. So there's no problem.

1:39:37And so that's what I did. But I was still engaged, but I was, you know, not running it today. And at this point, it's 3,500 stores. The company is doing 2.2 billion in revenue. It kind of feels like, okay, I can, I can get some distance. I can do other things in life. It's, you know, it's going to work out. At some point, Orin transitions the CEO role to Jim Donald, which I assume you're also very involved in working with him. What was that transition about? Orin never wanted to be the CEO.

1:40:08He's not a front guy. In fact, he shy and never wanted to be on the stage as a CEO. So he said, I'll do it for a couple of years. But he's always kind of knocking on my door saying, we needed a CEO. And we didn't have anyone internally. Be hard didn't want it. And so we did a search. We met Jim Donald. Great, great guy had all this operational experience.

1:40:37And then certain things started appearing. We weren't hitting our stride the way we usually do. The economic environment was getting tougher. And things just kind of unveiled itself that it wasn't going to work out. By the way, but Jim is a great guy, like a really good person, but it just wasn't the right fit. And so how long had he been in that role of CEO? I'd say less than three years, two years maybe.

1:41:07But basically the 2008 happens and so the cataclysmic financial crisis is unfolding and that plus the cracks that we were experiencing board meeting and I Don't think the board meeting was set up for me to return But it just kind of happened in the meeting about okay, we got all these problems. What are we gonna do? Do you want to come back and? Yeah, I'm gonna come back And that was never your intent. When you stepped away, you thought you were... It was not my intent to come back. It was certainly not my intent that we're going to run into problems. And so, in the Christmas vacation of 2007, I knew I was going to return in January. So, I was on holiday, and I was starting to think through what I was going to do. On that holiday, a friend of mine, not... I didn't know he was there, but it was Michael Delacere.

1:42:03I must have talked to him almost every day about the transformation of Starbucks and he was going through a similar thing at Dell almost at the same time so we had so many things to talk about and we were comparing notes and everything and so and early 2008 I spoke to Jim and I came back in 2008 and when you came back in 2008 I mean this is the whole crux of your book onward there's an entire book's worth of material here so we're not going to do it all okay but Suffice to say, just to put some numbers on it, the market cap had dropped from $30 billion to less than $7 billion, same-source sales, the comparable's number when you compare the store this quarter last year to this year to last year, had dropped growth began to slow, and so you come in need to make these really horrible decisions. You're faced with two terrible options, and you've got to make the right decisions for the business.

1:43:03First of every rock I turned over was worse than I thought. There were a lot of unperforming stores that should have never been opened that we need to close. I think we closed a thousand stores and I had a company wide meeting. I remember it vividly because I started crying and apologized to everybody that we got to close stores. We got to lay people off and I mean just think about you know we were on our a trajectory for all this time and all this sudden, not only hit a speed bump, but the world, the music was just stopping. A stock price, I think, broke $6. I was so afraid that we were going to get acquired, but the only cover we had is that the world was coming undone, so no one had any resources. But I was terrified. I just stood up and apologized and said, we've let you down. I promised them, do my best, but we're trying to save the company. And literally, we were trying to save Starbucks.

1:44:01things were that bad. You say that. We were trying to save Starbucks and in my head, I always thought, what couldn't have been that bad? This is big, successful company. It's fast growing, it's profitable. And then I read, you were seven months from being insolvent. So we had, we didn't have enough cash. We never had negative comes in the history of Starbucks. So negative, I didn't, every single quarter was better than 12 months. Never had never had a negative come month in my history of the company. I didn't even understand.

1:44:30I understand it, such an anomaly. So we close all those stores and then you got to decide, okay, how do we, how do we turn it? What do we do? And I think going back to your line of questions in the past about the people is of all the things that I could point to that demonstrates what Starbucks is has been and needs to be. It's the humanity and the people of the company. The company was built on being a performance driven company through the lens of humanity. That's how it was built. And whenever we've lost our way, we've lost our way because people in power didn't understand that equation. And so I just said, I need to be in front of every store manager.

1:45:33I need a meeting with 10,000 people. The big conference room. And so in 2008, no American company was traveling. And so the municipalities were hungry for Starbucks to potentially have a meeting at a discount. And so we had Detroit come in, we had Houston come in, and then New Orleans came in. What they presented to us was the need for Starbucks to come as a result of Katrina.

1:46:03And when we heard that we realized we've got to go to New Orleans and in fact, what we're going to do in New Orleans is we're going to have one full day of 50,000 hours of community service in the ninth ward. Next day we walk through and we built basically a tutorial on how to restore the business and how people walk through it and we had classes and we had all these things going on. And the third day was my speech.

1:46:34in the basketball Coliseum to 10,000 people. I'm about an hour before I was really feeling the burden of how important what I was going to say is. And the CFO at the time who subsequently resigned a week later wasn't my guy. Asked me what I'm going to sit and I said, I'm going to tell him the truth. And he says, you can't possibly do that. You're going to scare the shit out of them. I went up there.

1:47:07And I laid it out chapter in verse. I think we have seven months left. We are going to be in solvah. I can see why he was freaked out about this. Like we're got out to Wall Street. Yeah. Yeah. Well, social media didn't exist at that time, but I just laid it out. What if that store was the difference between the food on your table and its success? And then I had this economic formula of how many customers it would take per store to turn comes around.

1:47:40and the number was low. It's like less than 10 per day, or 11 per day. And so I said, let's just talk about New Orleans. Not many new incremental customers it'll take in your store, and it was manageable and tangible. Anyway. Right, because you could actually imagine, okay, if 10 more people walk in the door today, and I delight them in a particular way that brings them back tomorrow, like, We're turning this thing around. We're turning this one store around, and if everybody does that. And the problem when you get this big is you start thinking about large numbers. But if you reduce it to the lowest common denominator, one store, one cup of coffee, one customer, one partner, and what if all of that works? Well, we rushed out of New Orleans like an effing tidal wave. And we never looked back. And less than a year was turned.

1:48:38And you did crazy. I mean, the tactics involved in the turnaround. The closest stores. For what? New and onward, right? For an entire afternoon and evening. Because the previous administration had done things that deluded the integrity of coffee to maximize yield. Like what? What does that mean? Well, let's say you're making a batch of brewed coffee. Yep. Well, what if that brewed coffee was based on a number of ounces of coffee?

1:49:09What if you just reduced this a little bit? No one's gonna know. It's little things. Little, little 10,000 little things. Yeah, sounds good in theory. Scratches of efficiency that dilute the experience. But that does seem like a reflects a misunderstanding of the fundamental business. That this is a business about a store with high gross margins based on customer loyalty. But we were beginning to face headwinds. And what are the headwinds? Headwinds were the level of attrition of customers. As the financial climate deteriorated, spending that $6 on the latte daily habit gets harder to justify. And we weren't as good as we were when we were small. Yeah, that makes it easier to give up. And this goes back to what I said earlier, growth covers up mistakes and success breeds ubers. And it did. How could it not? I mean, how could you

1:50:10Starbucks today is so freaking ubiquitous. Which again is one of the things I love about it. It's consistent anywhere I travel in the world. I can count on it. I can mobile order and pay. There's all these wonderful things. But when you become like government level scale in the world, people assume it's a piece of public infrastructure. I assume employees even must feel that way during some periods of time. I'm like, we're so big. But the worst thing that Starbucks could have become, and the worst thing that Starbucks could become, is a utility. Scale and ubiquity creates complexity. Complexity demands efficiency. But we are in a business where that touch point between the customer and the barista has to be protected and has to be elevated. Now, then you get stores that are so busy where the barista can't even look up.

1:51:07And then you get mobile letter and pay, which we haven't even talked about. Which is, you know, is a thing I love and do every day. Andy personalizes the experience by definition. Yes. Starbucks demands nutrients. It's a company that has to be nurtured like a young child. That is an anomaly inconsistent with scale. And you get people coming into the company with different experience, different language. The immersion doesn't quite hit them in the heart or the soul.

1:51:37or the conscience of the company. They feel like they're doing a good job, but it's not the job that's consistent with the integrity and heritage of what the company has been. Metaphorically, let's say that's a giant reservoir. If you're taking a deposit on a consistent basis out of the reservoir and it's getting dry, you better stop. You better make sure you're making a deposit so they're equal and it's balanced. When you get this, That's when the company loses the plot and if you get this and you're making a lot of money and the stock price is high People say it's okay. We're fine and that's full gold It's a camouflage because eventually it's gonna bite you in the ass Have you ever figured out a way to measure these things in a way that like as long as these numbers that that the numbers are a direct tie to our values are good We can actually put a KPI against them. We know

1:52:39that the core is solid. I haven't been smart enough to figure that out, but I mean, I think the interesting thing to me today is that the Asian business is operating at a much higher level of the soft side of Starbucks than we are in the US. And I understand your Belinda on comment. That doesn't answer your question about quantifying it. But when I am in Asia, I see things that are very elevated to the brand that speak to the financial performance of those markets, which are very high. Okay, before we get to today, I want to talk about some other things that happened in 2008. 2008 was a big year. So 2008, 2009, 2010, there's no way to put it other than a wildly successful turnaround. Your low point in 2008 profits were 315 million and by 2010, they were 945 million. I mean,

1:53:40I don't know how we did that. Well, we just went through a lot of the ways of how you did that. There's a couple other things here, one of which is technology, but I'm told there's a story you have about Steve Jobs around this point in time too. Yeah, there's a funny story, another story. And so, in Hawaii, when it's on vacation, I'm talking to Michael Dell and Benioff.

1:54:04And you're cycling with you know, cycling with Dell every day and I'm talking about it Michael introduced me to Ben if didn't know and so It's pretty good Hawaii crew to so I get back and Adam Brockman was a key person in all this in terms of mobile order and pay yeah He ran digital for Starbucks. Yeah, he ran digital. I'm trying to make sure I got the sequencing of this right. I think there was a future meeting scheduled for Starbucks and Apple around Mobile Order and Pay and other things and I met Steve on a phone call I never met him talking to him on the phone and I'm telling him what's going on he's just come down which and he had a whole thing about walking he would go out and walk around the building I mean he heard this before yeah infinite loop at the Royal campus. Yeah, yeah, and so I went down there and basically went down we took a walk

1:55:07And I just told him all my problems, everything I was going on, and he just stopped me, and he said, this is what you need to do. This looked me, and you said, you go back to Seattle, and you fire everyone on your leadership team. I thought he was joking. I said, what do you mean? Fire, what are you talking about? Fire everybody. He said, I just told you, effing fires, all those people. He's like screaming at me in my face. Fire all those people. That's what I would do. I said, Steve, I can't fire all those people. Who's going to do the work? He said, I promise you, In six months, maybe nine, they'll all be gone. He was right, except for one, the General Counsel. They're all gone. Your whole leadership team turned over after they were all gone. Wow. That's a story about Steve Jobs. Wow. Did you ever talk to him back and tell him? All right. I talked to him since then, and we were on stage together at an event. And I told him they're all gone as well. You're six months nine months late, man. Think about all the things you could have done. Of course.

1:56:07All right. That's a story. So while we're in technology land then, I think today, 33% of Starbucks orders are done with mobile order and pay. So obviously this huge pillar of Starbucks as it exists in our world, how did that start? Yeah. Yeah. You'd been on pen and paper, then you moved to DOS. And now you have the most sophisticated technology platform of probably any retailer at the world. At the time.

1:56:35So, you're talking to a non-tech person. So, I'm not focused on anything other than the customer experience. Adam Brockman to his credit, along with Stephen Gillette, who was at Starbucks very shortly, came to us with the idea of building a mobile app. I didn't even know what it was. Honestly, we're in the meeting. I'm trying to figure out what he's actually talking about. How are they going to do that?

1:57:06they created an apps at this point. I mean, if it came out in 2009, which was the first version, the iOS SDK came out in summer 2008. So it's like, you know, you're one of the very, if they're having this idea and bringing it to you, it's like months after apps exist. Well, they get complete credit for assembling the pieces of all this, convincing us to fund it.

1:57:36And we were off and running. I don't think any of us honestly for myself really knew what they were actually going to create. They explained it to us, but I didn't really, I didn't get it until I saw it. And then holy shit. Overnight, it was just an unbelievable new vehicle. Now if we fast forward, I don't know if you want to do that here on what has become. It is the biggest Achilles heel for Starbucks really and it's not even a close second and so the mobile app created unbelievable convenience for our customers but remember we are an experiential brand and so as this thing was growing there was never an opportunity

1:58:39because it became so seductive for the company. It also created an even better business model for you, right? It was more efficient and you get the float. All that is true, but it was beginning to deteriorate at a rapid rate, the third place experience in the sense of community. And then it became an overflowed to the point where it disproportionately created an environment in our stores where the mobile app became the primary vehicle, as well as the primary vehicle for dissatisfaction. Because people couldn't get their drink on time, people were confused whether that was their drink, a lot of anxiety. And the thing I remember the most is that we were in Chicago at 8 a.m. because people wanted to show me the problem. And so everyone is getting off

1:59:41the loop, the train, at 8 a.m. and everyone who ordered on their app, it says the same thing. Your drink's gonna be ready in seven minutes and everyone shows up and all of a sudden we got a mosh pit and that's not Starbucks. And so the company did not do a good job of anticipating the technological refinements that needed to be put in place to avoid what was happening.

2:00:13and I want to be fair to everyone who's managed the company for about a five-year period. Remember, I wasn't involved in the company from basically 2018 to 2022. Yep. I wasn't involved. You stayed CEO from 2008 until 2017. Then I left. And there were no bad people and no one had bad intentions.

2:00:42But the heritage and tradition of what I've described which is so vital to the nurturance was lost. Well, it must have been so seductive. Yeah, the stock was at record high and the company was not investing ahead of the curve and not paying attention to the velocity of the mobile app and what it was becoming until it was too late. And now the company has that problem today, which they will solve.

2:01:09But it's it's late and also everyone has caught up to we were the only game in town and In the novelty of that and the uniqueness of it especially for our product mm-hmm, and everyone pretty much copied it It is interesting to David keep saying is so seductive to put some numbers for listeners wondering, you know why is the mobile app such an interesting thing David pointed out the float so of course if you look at Starbucks financial statements Right now, at any given time, there's about $1.8 billion of cash that Starbucks has gotten in the form effectively as an advance from customers that Starbucks can use to operate. It's like this amazing. In the growth, capital, you know, story expansion, et cetera, et cetera. Right. So it's the only one. I mean, everyone, like, you know, the Amazon has this, Apple has this. Yeah. For sure has this, the insurance business. Yeah. But it's effectively interest-free.

2:02:02loan from customers and a loan that's not all going to get called at once. It will never get called. Right. The breakage. And so there's this benefit of like it's a reasonably predictable amount of cash that comes in that you get to use for your advantage. In terms of velocity, about $14 billion a year gets loaded onto gift cards.

2:02:28It's unbelievable. I mean, if you actually look at all of the banks in America, if Starbucks wore a bank and you treated the gift cards as deposits, it would be in the top 10% by deposits of banks in the United States. It's this like unbelievable business model that happens to exist inside of this experiential business that powers this experiential business. But to your point, you have to keep it from eating the core.

2:02:56So let's just go back, not to the economics, but the idea itself. And I think whether we talked about bottle for Appuccino, the cup, you just thread all these things, there is a common through line. And that is, we took a commodity business and we transformed it into a premium product brand and experience. But when you are disrupting the market, There has to be some governor on the on the disruptive innovation to monitor How was it being used? How was it being abused and the era of judgment in the period where this was really kind of We're really took hold this five-year period between 2018 and 2022. It's a governor didn't exist. Oh, you feel like it wasn't really taking hold in that hole. It was taking hold before

2:03:55And I'm not criticizing anyone because we're all, everyone's trying to do a good job. But the result is the runner, the unbelievable success, it disrupted the experience. And now you have stores that are entirely built to just pick up mobile orders. And my view is we should not succumb to the mobile app. Looking back now, not when you're in the moment and you and others in the management team things happen, but knowing what you know now. Yeah. Are there a couple of key design decisions or things that you would re-architect differently about the mobile app experience? I don't think I would have allowed the mobile app to be on demand 24 hours a day. Hmm. I would have slowed rolled the availability of it and then understood how it was being

2:04:56used and whether or not it was going to disrupt the experience. But now it's, you know, on demand, whatever you want it. And now you can't shut it off from maintenance. When I get that message, you know, mobile order ahead is not available at this time. I'm like, oh, but it's available 99% of the time. It's not available now. And because the store. Yeah, I won't even go to a store if it doesn't. The store is over on. You wouldn't go. Yeah. That breaks my heart. I hate to hear that. Well.

2:05:25I went to the Presidio store yesterday in San Francisco, and I would go there no matter what. I only agree with you in airports. In airports, I'm so time constrained that I'm like if mobile order isn't working, the line's too long. I've had plenty of times where I'm looking at stores in the radius. I'm traveling. I'm in a new city, and it's like, well, I'm only going to go the one that's open for mobile order and pay. I'm not even going to try. I got to hit one other. Howard, I know you hate it, but one other.

2:05:52like amazing business model benefit of mobile order and pay. If I'm buying six dollar lattes over and over again with my Visa card and Starbucks is getting hit with 30 cents every time. Instead, if I'm buying $25 gift cards, well, that's now three at a four times. I'm going to buy my coffee and Starbucks doesn't have to pay Visa 30 cents or the bank 30 cents. That's a pretty amazing business unlock.

2:06:18You know, I'm aware it degrades the experience you have to find ways to deal with that, but. I'd be more than willing to sacrifice economics to go back to ways to enhance the experience myself, but I'm not in charge. All right, listeners.

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2:08:15So if you're trying to turn AI ambition into real business outcomes and make it work safely, securely at scale, go check out servicenow.com slash acquired and tell them that Ben and David sent you. Moving on from technology and mobile order and pay, there's one more to my mind key pillar of the Starbucks tapestry than that's real estate. And maybe this is a good time because I feel like around this era is when People started looking at Starbucks and scratching their heads and being like there's two Starbucks across the corner from one another. These guys must be insane. Talk to us about real estate. The basic idea early on, given the beverage's velocity in AM was to find a corner location in an urban setting where we could

2:09:10physically see pedestrian traffic in a significant way. And so we would go to cities and count this physically count, how many people were walking by, what hours they were walking by. And once we had a model of success, it became clear to us what we needed. And also once we became aware of co-tenancies, of certain tenants that would be interesting to us.

2:09:40We also were very intrigued with being next to a grocery store early on because of the frequency and people were buying food. Anytime we were in an office building where there was three to four thousand people in a building, that was a home run. But then it became very clear that there were locations that we never imagined we could be in that became wildly successful and just opened up an aperture to us.

2:10:09that basically we had opportunities to do things that were not traditional for a retailer. Now the other thing which we haven't talked about is the decision I made early on, not the franchise, which you haven't surprised you haven't mentioned that. Oh well, there were franchises. But let me explain that. Which is all part of the real estate strategy. I never believed that we could build, maintain, and elevate the culture of the company which I viewed as the thing in a franchise system where we had individual franchisees who had their own subculture. And so even though there was pressure early on because of the cost of capital and we didn't have a lot of money to franchise, we'd have no cap ex. I said no, we resisted that. And I don't think we'd be having this conversation if Starbucks was a franchise system because

2:11:09McDonald's extraordinary company, but they're a commodity-based product. Well, as you've been saying, it's from the beginning, it was about elevating. Yeah. McDonald's is a great company, but nobody would ever accuse them of elevating, they don't think. And that's why I don't want Starbucks to become transactional. Coffee is personal. The biggest magic. And the lightning in the bottle is when you go to Japan or Shanghai or Malaysia.

2:11:38and you see the culture in a way that you just can't believe. How did it happen that we were able to transfer this to another country, different language, different culture, different paths? How do we do it? That's actually quite befuddling to me. Because so many food and beverage concepts do not transfer geographies. I think it transferred because young people around the world, we all want the same thing. They want opportunity.

2:12:09They want to be respected. They want dignity. They want to make their parents proud. They want to work for a company that they believe in. And when I see what we've done around the world, I'm moved emotionally because the humanity I speak of is universal. That's why when I came back from China, what I said was, I just want to say something about China and the US. I know all the rhetoric and the propaganda about our two countries, but what I see...

2:12:39They said, we have so much more in common than we have differences. And that should be the theme of the world right now. I want to pick up the thread on China. Now that we're sort of into the 2010s. Okay. This decade saw huge ridiculous growth in China store openings. So there were 500 stores in 2011, right? When you're sort of coming out of that, the, the rut. By 2017, there were 3,000. Today there's almost 7,000. And there was a stat that was reported that a new store opened in China every 15 hours in 2017. True. Now bring us to that seed that you planted earlier, with Belinda being the single most important employee. China presented the enormity of opportunity with the significant challenge of pioneering. It's a tea-drinking culture. Tea-drinking culture, no morning business, people eating rice in the morning.

2:13:38We got real estate wrong. We got breakfast wrong, but it was all coming from the control of Seattle. Did you go in with essentially the Starbucks concept? Yeah, it was exactly what you see right now. There's no no different, but they didn't know the Chinese people hardly knew what coffee was. There was no morning traffic and the early days of our partner, we didn't see eye to eye, so we got them out. When Belinda came along, we had a world-class operator who had succeeded in Singapore and Hong Kong. She's a strong person who believed that Seattle, the way we were organized, was not a formula for success. You can't have people in Starbucks in Seattle designing the breakfast menu who have never been to China, who think we're going to get any blueberry muffins. And so when she said to me, I will do it if I'm in control of everything.

2:14:40So I wanted to centralize China. I report to you. It's you and me and John Culver, who runs international, takes Seattle out of the equation. We were failing. What choice did I have? She turned it. She single-handedly built the China business. Today, 18% of Starbucks's revenue was China. Yeah. She deserves all the credit. John and I have been the China.

2:15:14almost every quarter during the building years of turning it with her. And all the government meetings to tell the Starbucks story and and then we did things in China disruptively. Well, Belinda decided that she could go to the government and go to an insurance company and come back to Starbucks and get government approval for Starbucks to do the first through something had never been done before and provide health insurance.

2:15:43to the parents and grandparents of our partners. Cool. So a Chinese government was so intrigued sitting down with them saying, can you explain why do you want to do this? Right, you don't have to. Yeah. Because it's the culture of our company, we want to do everything we can to benefit our people. Humanity, and it's universal, but it's so.

2:16:16I think important to just create some guardrails. So one day, in the early stages of Starbucks, Howard Beere comes to my office one day, and we're small to stage. And he says, we got a terrible situation. The manager of the Seattle Trust Store, on second in Madison, Seattle, Tom Kerrigan has eats. Now, AIDS at that time was like leprosy leprosy so he Tom comes in and he says I need to resign from Starbucks and he's crying Do you have any health insurance? No, and so we covered Tom carry you from that point on but it was those kinds of imprinting moments and there were many like that Right, I think it's funny. So I have heard

2:17:23That story probably five times because I've consumed an incredible amount of Starbucks content over the last couple months and I've heard a story about Starbucks employees wanting to buy a cow for a farmer in Africa and Stories about Flint, Michigan and stories about get the initiative to bring the company together to try to bring the country together when the government was shut down in 2013 whenever that was and I was getting frustrated watching all these stories because I kept thinking This is not the answer to why Starbucks worked these are these one-off anecdotes that are Sure, they're emblematic of some broader theme, but at the end of the day like the answer to why Starbucks works has to be something about

2:18:10the business model and every time you walk into the store XYZ happens and here's the economics but it turns out there are thousands of these stories and it's the humanity seeping through and it's hard for the company to tell the story because everyone just feels like a random one-off example but they're happening in every community and every part of the country and I think that is the For me, as like a business historian, that's been the thing that jumps out is there's no other company that we've studied that has this sort of obsession with people and humanity, the way that Starbucks does. And we're not perfect. And so we do make mistakes. And when the brand is being shined so brightly. It's a high standard to be held. We live in an environment where if you do make a mistake and we are human and we're going to make mistakes, unfortunately that becomes the thing.

2:19:01Yep. And it's tough to fight that. Are you open? I'd love to kind of flash forward. You know, you were CEO through 2017. Kevin Johnson took over 2017 to 2022. You came back for one year as interim CEO, and now Laxman is the CEO and has been in the seat for about a year. You came in after a tumultuous COVID era and tried to basically figure out who the successor was going to be and you know, patch the ship in the meantime.

2:19:31A lot of stuff has happened in that last five years, notably with labor unions. I don't want to make this podcast about labor unions, but I do want to ask you, what if you learned from the experience of having to do a deep dive into how we got here? That's a very tough, complex question. I think my personal relationship with the company and how personal it is to me, and the things that we, not I, but we have tried to do to build a different kind of company. When the country started moving in a post-COVID era to a direction that I didn't recognize, very, very hard to understand why Starbucks would be

2:20:32under assault or just being challenged this way. Particularly when you had built a reputation on a very fatter than a history of being unbelievably kind to your people. Yes. I entered Starbucks as the interim CEO when this was already going on. And I think the company made some early mistakes, some of which were COVID-related.

2:21:02Again, no textbook had a deal with COVID issues, health issues, safety issues. And then I think underestimated the groundswell of public sentiment for this movement in America and then became vilified for trying to defend the company in a way that I thought was appropriate.

2:21:31I think what's lost in all this is the percentage of stores that have been petitioned and the number of people is very small in relationship to the whole. And then all of the people in Starbucks who were depending on me to defend the company and trying to do that in a world of disinformation is very difficult. At the time when I was trying to restore the company back to health, clearly Mistakes were made. This story is still unfolding, and my heart's with the company, but I think that I think was lost in the story is the shareholder is not the primary person. It's the Starbucks partner in the green apron, which is the cloth of the company. And if we exceed the expectations of the cloth of the company and our people, shareholders and customers are going to win. That's been my whole life story.

2:22:30And that's basically worked for decades and decades. It also seems like when you Starbucks has become such an institution in our society that leading a small disruptive organization, everyone gives you the credit for all the positives and all the exciting things you're doing and you sort of get a pass on anything that didn't work. Move faster. Great. Thanks. When you're at this scale, everyone expects you to be wildly successful all the time because you always have been.

2:23:00anything that's misaligned, that is where 100% of the focus is. Well, I think if you take a step back, not from Starbucks, but if you say to yourself, what company has gotten big in the food business and stayed true to its core purpose and reason of being and then stayed positively inclined to its customers? What are you going to name? And so the odds on getting this big and still being revered for who you once were is very, very difficult. And I would argue in so many ways, we are better today than we were when we were smaller. That is expected of us. But I don't think we get much credit. Maybe we shouldn't. Maybe this is our responsibility. The elements to characteristics that build the Starbucks business to culture is compassion, empathy, and love.

2:23:59Those are not just words. It's like real things that are not they're not being taught in business schools and people on the outside view it is not true. Well, I'm telling you the reason we've succeeded is because the underpinning of the company's purpose has been just that and it's much harder today to execute that because you're dealing with cynicism as the first order of defense, then you have to overcome. But the responsibility as leaders is to do just that. All right. I'm going to take us to Starbucks today. I'll kind of map that out and give you the stats. And then we're going to go into playbook where we basically try to take all the lessons we just learned over the last few hours and figure out why did Starbucks work? And that's such a grand scale that it did. So to catch listeners up on the business today,

2:24:56Starbucks does $36 billion in revenue, 4.1 billion in net income. There are 380,000 employees. You gave me a set. I think over 450,000. 450,000 globally. I must be using an old number. And over the lifetime of the company has employed over 5 million. Yes. 5 million a lump. That is scale right there. 39,000 stores globally in 86 countries.

2:25:22almost half of which are in North America, 18% in China and about half of those are licensed franchise and half are company operated. And so while we're not, you know, you mentioned we don't franchise in the traditional McDonald's sense, you do these joint ventures and you do this this way of entering countries where you don't need to own and operate the entire store yourself.

2:25:48Not franchises in the typical sense. Yeah, so tell us about that. I think we should talk about that. Yeah. The joint venture relationships that we've established that some goes back almost 30 years in the Middle East, in Latin and Central America, now in Italy, in the EU, in India. And what does it mean to be your partner?

2:26:13Every country is different depending on the economics of that country, the political issues. Some countries have been an 80-20 Starbucks owns 80, they own 20, some are 50-50, some of the 80-20 started out as 80 for us and they've bought it in over the way. It depends. But the key thing is, whether it's Alberta, Toronto and Latin and Central America, Muhammad al-Shay in the Middle East, the Tata group in India, the Prakashi family in Italy, they understand the culture and values of Starbucks. And so tactically, you said it's not a franchise in the traditional way, what are Starbucks responsible for and what is the partner responsible for? Starbucks is responsible for roasting the coffee for all the recipes which are consistent with Starbucks worldwide.

2:27:11a co-design to the store where we're designing the store with the JV or the license partner and they control all the operations. And so all of Starbucks's franchise or license stores are done in this way where there's a partner in a country that there are not no individual license franchises of any kind unless it's certain real estate that we can't get that we want access to. Like a roadway.

2:27:40on a highway in Switzerland or something. And airports are this way, right? And airports are master license with the master licensee, like whoever has it and like Marriott or whoever has it. I gotcha. Or Target that has 2000 Starbucks stores. And those are target operated. Yes. Yes. And great partner. And Brian Cornell, great guy. And it's interesting. The basically, you know, half of Starbucks stores look like the platonic ideal of coming out of the Starbucks HQ, here is how we imagine this store to be. And half of them are, there's some reason why we alone can't do this and need a partner. And you, you know, you know, I mean, ideally want the customer experience to be the same worldwide, regardless of the shape and size of the store, we're dislocated. Makes sense. Which is not always the case. I admit that. So one market that we haven't talked about that I want to ask you about what we're in this.

2:28:39No, with the playbook is Italy. Yeah. Yeah. The whole thing came out of Milan. Right. And yet for decades, 50 years, no, no, no Starbucks in Italy. And the belief, at least as I see it, is they've perfected the coffee house concept. Don't bring in imitation in here. But it's worked. It's, it's working phenomenally well. Why is Starbucks being so well received in Italy?

2:29:07So, I know I'm gonna be chastised what I'm about to say, but it's true. The buy-in-large, coffee in Italy is not as good as it once was. There are certain coffee companies that have maintained the standard, but buy-in-large the coffee is not as good. I'm gonna be killed for that, but that's my truth. If you don't believe you have a better product, who does?

2:29:36I didn't think we earned the right to go to Italy until we were really ready to present ourselves in the best possible way because I knew the knives would be out for us in ways that we couldn't even possibly imagine given the history and the cultural relevance of espresso in the coffee bar. And so we waited and waited and waited until the roastery.

2:30:04Before we get to Italy, I have to explain the roastery for you. Please. I mean, the first time I went in there, you know, kid in candy store, wide eyes. So there are six roasteries starting in Seattle, Chicago, New York, Tokyo, Shanghai, and Milan. The roastery itself is probably the most entrepreneurial, creative project that I could recall in my history of Starbucks.

2:30:30What is the experience we could create that just absolutely blows people away? So what did I do as a kid? I've loved this movie and so I invited most creative people in the company to my house and I said we're gonna watch a movie Of course they thought I was nuts and I turned on Willy Wonka. I was gonna say that. I was gonna say I've got a big one. Willy Wonka with Gene Wilder and we went to work starting to design a space. Now we realized early on. And this was what, 20, 30, 14, eight years ago. Now we realized economically, this is a tough business model. So what are we trying to do? We're trying to create an experience that is accretive to the brand and significantly elevate Starbucks, which is fighting ubiquity all the time every day. And so we

2:31:30created this 30,000 square foot space in Seattle, which we opened seven years ago, which is the most dynamic, entertaining vehicle of theater, romance, seduction, and we open it to rave reviews, and we're manufacturing, like Willy Wonka did, we're manufacturing and roasting coffee in the space. Which makes the smell of the... It's amazing. So we open it up, and then...

2:32:00Over time, we started opening up more. We got approval from the Chinese government to manufacture in the center of Shanghai. We opened up a 40,000 square foot in Shanghai. We opened up an incredible space in Tokyo. We opened up in the old Creighton Barrel space in North Michigan Avenue in Chicago. We opened up in the meat packing business in New York, but the shrine has to be maligned. This is the way to go back. And this is the way we open on Italy. Now, our partner in Italy is the Prakasi family, fantastic people who are in a real estate business. And they are showing me I'm going back and forth to Milan like all the time because they've got real estate and I got to see it. I got to touch it. I got to smell it. I keep going back and back and back. No, not the right site, not the right site. And I'm standing on the corner of Carduso Square and I look at this face and I say, what about that? And he says, that's the post office.

2:33:00I said, well, it's empty. It's empty. You can't get it. So I said, can I meet the landlord? I said, how is the government? I said, well, who's responsible for it? So they arrange a meeting for me. And I meet the broker who's involved in this, but it's empty space. And find out the story is that these government buildings during the financial crisis were sold to private equity. So I said, who's the landlord? I'm not, I can't tell you.

2:33:31You have to tell me with a landlord. Private equity that's letting real estate sit empty. It's anywhere this is going. Okay, it turns out, I know I'm going to get killed for the story. You're going to have to fix this. It turns out the owner of the space is blackstone. I knew it. Of course. I said, why am I in Italy? I called John Gray. I called John Gray a friend of no way. I said, John, I'm in Milan.

2:34:00Do you realize you own this space in Cartuzza Square? It used to be a post office. He said, I don't know. Let me check. It's a John. I'm coming to see you tomorrow. I'm on the next flight. Do the deal with John Gray. Amazing. Unbelievable. John Gray, of course, being the number two person at Blackstone. And John's a big fan of Starbucks. He had previously been in Seattle for a wedding or a bar mitzvah something and it saw the roastery. So you knew exactly what I was talking about.

2:34:30And so, that is how we entered in Milan. Now, we have 30 stores, we have 30 traditional stores in Italy. Did they already exist before the rest of your life? Well, we're not open first. First the rest of your life. Then 30 stores, we're in Milan, we're in Rome, we're in Florence, and two, three years later, what do you think the number one beverage is? It's espresso. For Starbucks? Yeah, yeah. Straight espresso. Espresso is the number one beverage.

2:35:04Wow. So I don't take the success in Italy for granted, we've got to continue to earn it. But what I'm most proud of is that we've respected the Italian people and coffee culture for 50 years. And they embraced us. And so the implication of espresso being the number one beverage is it's not tourists. It's the Italians coming to Starbucks. There's a lot of tourists coming into the grocery, but yes. And that they're choosing to get their espresso at Starbucks, not it. Yeah. Yeah.

2:35:32So, you know, Italy, I'm going to Italy next week, but just for me, the gratification and satisfaction of, you know, a complete full circle from 1983 is just beyond belief for me. I'm wondering, another backdrop to the roastery and really throughout all the 2010s must have been third wave coffee, and I'm sure it was on your radar screen. Yes.

2:36:03At the same time, it doesn't seem like it's ever made a dent in Starbucks. There has always been stories that all these competitors were going to steal business from Starbucks. But from 1983 to all the way today, the consumption, especially coffee, is still a small amount relative to the macro opportunity. So all those people have expanded the market with and for Starbucks. Now we created an industry that didn't exist.

2:36:31and they have followed us and done really good things, but I'm not threatened by that. Interesting. So you think third wave coffee brought consumers into the coffee culture market that have then also become Starbucks consumers and maybe they wouldn't have been coffee culture consumers at all. Yes. How do you define third wave coffee? Actually Howard, it's probably the best person asked. I mean, it's a very intentional, independent coffee store.

2:37:02that is small enough that they're roasting their own coffee or getting coffee from a small proprietary roaster and creating a very unique handcrafted experience that in many ways Starbucks can't do in scale. Right. Right. And so I tip my hat to them, but there's no coffee experience in the world that comes close to the roastering, any of them.

2:37:32And do those roasteries break even or are they this like marketing show piece? Some have some are making money and some aren't Wow, I mean, I don't I don't I've never viewed it that way It's you can't you couldn't put a price on the hundreds of thousands of people that come into this roastery and have an experience of a lifetime And I took mr. Arno to the roastery really yeah in Milan in Seattle in his son. Yeah Wow, you know spent a a good amount of time with him. I've taken a lot of retail CEOs and iconic business people through the grocery. I bet. Who want to see it? Wow. What was Bernard doing in Seattle? I don't know what he was doing in Seattle, but I've done a fair amount of time with him in his son. The son of now runs Tiffany. Wow. And his love of curiosity was very high. I remember he kept looking at the leather railing and the stitching and I just said,

2:38:31he's spending a lot of time on the weather. I bet he was. Maybe there's a partnership to be done. Okay, so now the question sort of becomes what are the set of circumstances that had to be true in order for Starbucks today to exist? And the one thing we haven't talked about, or one of the things is how much of what Starbucks has accomplished could have happened if it wasn't an addictive substance like it's kind of this incredible thing that it's a legal drug that all the research anyone's ever done into caffeine is by and large it's neutral to helpful and like every other drug that you know at some point people have enjoyed whether it's smoking or drinking and more as research comes out over time we find out shoot that wasn't good for us that's not the case for coffee an amazing thing to get to build a business on

2:39:28This delightful thing we have to consume every day because we're addicted and it's pretty good. And it gives you superpowers. Yeah. I'd like to believe it's not based on what you are characterizing as an addictive average. I'd like to believe it's the experience that has been created around the enjoyment of the coffee and the experience that happens. I also think And we haven't really spoke that much about it is I can't state enough over the last two decades what customization meant to the company and how customers created a personal beverage well beyond what the menu was. And I don't know any other business in which the incrementality of the price has been dictated by the consumer.

2:40:27The base price is X, but most people are doing something in X plus Y. I have a very specific drink that I like and when I go to coffee shops that are not Starbucks, I can't get it because it feels taboo to order. Like I like an iced all-in-milk latte with whipped cream. And when I go to most coffee houses, I'm like, I can't ask for whipped cream on top of the Starbucks. They're like, of course, that's what we do here.

2:40:53This is something that I think has translated incredibly well to the mobile app and that no other food company has really the level of customization. And I think the mobile app actually added velocity to customization. It powered customization. And I think the Starbucks Barista deserves so much credit because they are dealing with so many different variations of beverages.

2:41:24Some of which you're making for the first time on the fly It's hard to do. It's a hard work. It has to be a good number because there's I don't know if it's I haven't done the math billions trillions of combinations of possible drinks and so it has to be every single day as a bridge day You're making something for the first time. Yes. I think the the number that people use inside the company is a hundred thousand different variations of beverages that are being made consistently. 100,000 different beverages. This is actually a really interesting way to lead into playbook because on the surface, it's like an obvious question, right? Like, yes, it's an addictive substance, caffeine. Of course. On the other hand, you're in a highly competitive market, right? Yeah. Selling a commodity. And the market actually is not just coffee. It's, let's stick with this theme, it's caffeine broadly.

2:42:23There's Coca-Cola, there's Fats, there's, you know. Well, not only that, but every food company, every retail food business from McDonald's on, took a page out of Starbucks, went to school on us, put espresso machines in their stores and started doing coffee beverages. That also expanded the market. And I think the real question is, for us here, nobody has built Starbucks despite decades in a highly competitive market with...

2:42:49whether it's third wave or competitors in other geographies or domestic competitors or McDonald's getting into the business or folders in Maxwell House, there is a unique tapestry that we've been weaving throughout this episode that, you know, in Hamilton Helmer's terms has power here. Yes. Coffee, so here's my second one in addition to the, it's wood.

2:43:18addictive but delightful. It is perceived to be virtuous, to be a barista, where it is not perceived to be virtuous to flip burgers. And I don't know if that's something Starbucks created. I don't know if that's something inherent to the product. I don't know if that's because it has this Italian lineage. But there's all these incredible benefits that Starbucks and any other coffee house chains get to enjoy.

2:43:47because it's respected to do that work. And I'm curious, why do you think that's respected when similar ways of spending your hours in restaurant work isn't? First of all, I've never heard it quite like that and I think that's a very interesting insight. There is craft and art to the expression of making the beverage.

2:44:16I also think the intimacy of the relationship with the customer is so different. And baristas know the names of their customers. They know their dog's name. We have a drive-through, and I saw a video where the barista knows the name of the dog and knows the whole thing. It's just like a magical dance that happens when the cars pull in and all of a sudden It's not a transaction. One of the beauties that we have been able to do is elevate the experience of the drive-through, not all the time. So I think your question is steeped in one is a commoditized environment, and the other clearly is not. And the challenge for Starbucks is continuing to innovate for the barista. And when you, in this category,

2:45:16To extend that point, you start from a place of this a good job. And you can sort of improve the experience for that employee so they can improve the experience for your customers. Whereas in other things that are commoditized, they start from a position of, I have to do this job. And it's a really tough uphill battle to invest in your people, whereas Starbucks kind of has a tailwind. But it is a hard job. Certainly. And we have to honor the people who are doing it.

2:45:46More so today than ever before. Yep. Another one that I have is, it's funny, it flies in the face of some of the pitfalls of ubiquity that we were discussing before. The fact that it is everywhere almost cheapens the experience. To me, Starbucks's ubiquity is a massive feature. The fact that I can go anywhere in the world and get basically my same order.

2:46:09or it's certainly anywhere in America and get my same order. I can even do it from the mobile app in a way that I'm very familiar with ordering. It's reliable, it's predictable. It's the same reason I bank with Chase and I buy Apple products. It's this thing that I just know works everywhere and I never have to take any risk on. Starbucks didn't have that when it was starting but it really feels like it's reached this scale that no one else can really compete with the level of ubiquity. So ubiquity earlier on in our conversation, I said, ubiquity is an enemy of Starbucks. And it's an enemy because we can't be defined by our ubiquity. We have to be defined by the one store you come into, not based on the thousands, but that experience you have in the store. So if the ubiquity is driving

2:47:05trust and driving convenience, we have to ensure the fact that we are providing that intimacy in the store and not allowing ubiquity to commoditize the experience. That is the framework of the daily challenge of the company. Frustratingly, for those of us who are trying to analytically put this puzzle together, the humanity is actually the answer. Scaling humanity is actually the...

2:47:34You know, along with this obsessive quality of product, the fact that product isn't just product, but experience is the product. It's everything you experience around consuming the beverage itself. It's a bunch of the things we've already talked about. You invest in your employees, they take care of the customers who take care of the shareholders, but the shareholders are last. It's the fact that...

2:47:56Yeah, we talked about the store cash flow dynamics that you can scale in a really cash efficient way when you know you're paying the stores back in in less than two years every time every store is a billboard so you're intentionally picking real estate in these places where you're building familiarity with people they're walking by over and over and over you're extending the brand by doing United Airlines by going to grocery stores everything is a billboard everything is a billboard yeah, that's the like why pay for customer acquisition when you can you know, get product in people's hands. Yeah. The third place, you know, very novel idea at first turned out that was something basically the entire country and then the world wanted to participate in, not obvious at first. And it's so easy to think about these things that now we take completely for granted. Like Starbucks is infrastructure in our society. It is assumed. Like when I go to an airport or a city and there's not

2:48:54an easy way to get to a store. I'm like, what? What is this place? Backwoods, place them in. It's expected. And when you live with something most of your life, you forget that it was once a crazy idea. I think that's the... I think the other piece that you didn't just list off there that we've covered in depth is the costs go like investment in your employees and the people and the reduction of turnover.

2:49:22In Costco's case, I think it's probably much more so the reduction of turnover. In Starbucks's case, it really is like, that's a key, the key element to building the humanity, right? Like, I don't know the employees at my Costco store. What's the stat that you have on, I've heard you say it a number of times on employee tenure at Starbucks versus others in the category? It's a 2x, is what I believe.

2:49:50that employee tenure is 2x longer or turnover is half of what it is industry-wide yes it makes a huge difference and you've talked about being stock you've talked about comprehensive health insurance when I think about the most important thing we probably have done in the last 20 years it's been the unique relationship that we established with Arizona State University and its president Michael Crowe Could we create free college tuition, a four-year free college tuition through our own estate for every single partner in Starbucks? And we did it. And thousands of Starbucks partners are engaged in going to school and thousands have graduated. The College Achievement Plan

2:50:37Demonstrates going back to the early years of the speeches I was giving about what is the responsibility for a for-profit company in the world we're living in? And it's not just to make money. Here's one that we haven't talked as much about. You were part of this secular trend of gourmet coffee. And I'm curious if you view that to be a true statement or if you're saying, no, we created this entire wave.

2:51:08It wasn't going to happen. I don't want to sound arrogant at all, but I think it's so clear that Starbucks created an industry that did not exist. And as a result, tens of thousands of stores have followed in our wake and we created an employment industry that did not exist. Not to mention it is 5 million alone.

2:51:36Yeah, that's a lot of people who have gone on to do other things after. And I think one thing that's always been missed is that Starbucks has always been a great first job. So in your mind then, let's say there's a parallel universe where Howard Schultz doesn't exist. The year is 1995. Is there a nationwide chain not called Starbucks with gourmet coffee?

2:52:04taking off in the United States because the conditions were perfect for it. I would assume that there would have been a national, franchised business that would have occupied the coffee space, but would have been more commoditized. A dung of doughnuts, for instance. Yeah, nothing. I don't think anything would have been executed like Starbucks. But I think someone would have showed up. Right.

2:52:33The opportunity was just too much white space. There was clearly demand there. We were coming off this horrible, you know, folders in Maxwell House era and there was this growing demand, but that doesn't mean that a company like Starbucks would have been created. It means just in some way that consumer demand would have been satisfied. But just remember our intent was not to build a global business.

2:52:57You know, the first business plan, I've said this many times, when I was raising money, it was 100 stores. And I wasn't raising the money, and I couldn't afford to reprint the whole document, whatever that was at the time. And I whited out, no one needed to know what that means. I whited out 175. When was the last time you used to white out? Yeah, it's been a while. It's been a while. Yeah, really? So you, yeah, whited out 75, because I couldn't, did I feel too ambitious? Yeah, people didn't believe.

2:53:26I think you're crazy. But we never, we, you know, Japan was the turning point of thinking we could build an international business. But we, none of us had any international experience. No, in the whole entire company. I mean, in any ways, you could say this shouldn't have happened. Yeah. Okay. So this brings us to the absolute magic of founder led businesses. I mean, when you have a founder at the helm, You get all this leeway from shareholders from employees you can take crazy risks and people know it's cuz you're you but for you wouldn't exist at all so Run with it What are the biggest innovations that have happened at Starbucks not under Howard Schultz? What a question I'm pausing not because there hasn't been any Because I'm sure there has been

2:54:27But I'm hard pressed to kind of think about what it was I don't think you were running the show when the pumpkin spice latte came out Yes, I was you were I didn't like it. Oh Yeah, it does feel like you were obsessed with the purity of the Italian coffee bar for a long time and then at some point you were like actually What I'm obsessed with is serving customers in whatever they want from us. Well, the Ilginali store only played Italian opera and had no chairs. I mean, that would have scaled as well. I'm recalling my time from Rome two years ago. That's literally I'm walking around Rome and that's everywhere. Yeah, it's completely different than. No, I think I had a seat a light. I had to understand we were not a business to please me, but please the customers. I mean, what is it? 70% of...

2:55:18drinks are now ice beverages, and it was when you started zero percent. For the first decade, it was zero. So to me, there's this threat of, at some point, shaking off your own opinions and saying, we're going to do what the customer wants us to do. To a degree. Yeah. But I was clearly leading it. It was a leading question around innovations, not under. Yeah. So what's the point? What's your It's not that there hasn't been innovation. I think there's a burden that the organization has and a reliance on the founder that over time can become unhealthy. And not that I didn't want succession, I wasn't really on my mind. And the marketing and the merchant mentality of Starbucks

2:56:18was always with me, and probably did not allow others who were well-intended and could have done good things, were following and leaning on me, which is not the healthiest thing over the longevity of the company. And I think that has covered up mistakes, that's covered up things, and then it was revealed when I left. I mean, it's the very things that make the business successful, the founder bets, that then at some point in the company's second act kind of hold it back, you have all this muscle memory as a company of relying on founder Maverick acts. At some point, you need to figure out how as a company to not. Well, the other thing about that is most founder led companies are entrepreneurial driven. It's not that they're not following the rules. They're making the rules.

2:57:21especially if you're creating an industry that did not exist. Founder leaves, and I'm not talking about me, historically. And companies lose not only the extent of the entrepreneurial DNA, but they lose the ability to be on offense. And the worst thing that a company can do like a sports team is start playing defense because you're afraid to fail. That is a disease.

2:57:52not unlike another disease, which has happened in Starbucks, which is Ubers. The worst thing that could happen to a company is believing that you are incapable of doing anything, what's succeeding, and you deserve the success. But if you start playing defense and don't have the offensive mind, it's not going to go well. And I think over time that has happened at Starbucks. You've transitioned from being the CEO.

2:58:24to someone else three different times if you could go back let's even just say the first time if you go back years 1999 or 1997 so you can start working on some talent development what would you do differently to make sure that succession I would have believed Warren when he said I only want to do this for a couple years and I convinced myself I could just get Warren to do this for five years maybe 10 years and so when he kept saying you know I don't want I don't want to do this anymore I just, so I was stuck because I was not prepared to look around the room and say, God, I think he could do it. And if I would have spent maybe a year or two, but I didn't, I was very, I believed that I could convince Nora to stay longer. And so I think, and also Jim Donalds, a great guy, but I think the immersion of an outsider at that time, given we were moving into a crisis, not a Starbucks crisis, but the

2:59:24financial crisis. Very difficult. So, it's on me, I think, when I look back and I just did not do a very good job of recognizing the internal talent and cultivating it. But I want to say one more thing about Starbucks and it's the complexity of it. We're in multiple businesses. So, we're in the agricultural business. We are buying coffee from 30 producing countries around the world.

2:59:55We are subject to whether and the agricultural issues, some of which are many of which are not in our control, political, all kinds of stuff. Second, we are manufacturing a commodity that is very, very challenging because it's coming from 30 producing countries in each coffee from every country has its own proprietary taste profile that has to be roasted differently.

3:00:28And when you're blending it like a winery, it's art. And so we're an agricultural buyer. We are a manufacturer. We are a retailer. We are a wholesaler. We are managing JV relationships in 80 countries. We have JVs with two behemoth companies, Nestle and Pepsi Cola. And above all else, we are in the people business managing the behavior, the motivation, and the opportunity creation for almost 500,000 people. And we're a public company in which the expectations based on our success have been higher than most. Not to mention you're a quasi-financial institution too. Yeah, and we've got all of that. And lastly, I think the personal responsibility of a founder

3:01:30In my case, who loves this company as much as I love my family. And so it's a challenging, fragile thing on a very personal level. And you can't escape it. You make your point. You want to go somewhere and get, I mean, you can't escape it. So it's always around you. I'm so glad you're bringing this up. It really resonates to us hearing you say that. Like, it's the way we feel about acquired in our show and to imagine that's easy for us. We have no stakeholders. We never would expect that this would scale to 500,000 people. If it did, I can't even imagine the complexity of that. But you also have now that you've achieved this level of success, you have an expectation that you've got to keep not reinventing, but you've got to make sure that you're as good as you've been. No better. You've got to be better. Again.

3:02:28and your success is not an entitlement, like Starbucks, just isn't. And when you have success, it gets harder, because the bar keeps getting higher. That's just human expectations. Going into this, I was thinking, I had some funny thing occurred to me, which was, at some point, why did Starbucks need to grow anymore? It's already everywhere. And of course, it's a public company, so it literally has just has to keep growing. But it's just human expectation that things keep getting better than they were last year.

3:02:57They should. People should just figure it out and make it better. We all think that about every product and experience that we have. Indeed. Well, listeners, we were thinking about how to land this episode. And in our normal episodes, we land the plane in some way or come up with the one thing you really, you can't leave the episode without thinking about. And I feel like we covered a lot of those in playbook. And so rather than drilling into that again, we were talking with Howard and he threw out this idea. I really do have one more thing to say. Yeah. Given this moment that Starbucks is in right now here in summer of 2024, this felt like the right way to address that. Back to the interview. Well, Howard, we're at the end here. And I think listeners may be wondering, okay, but what about Starbucks today? Yeah. And the last few years have seen, you know, you come back as an RMCEO for a year, transition to a new CEO. It's been about a year after that. And it's been a

3:03:57Rough couple years. I mean part of it is coming out of the pandemic, but I think anybody who tuned in the last earnings call is wondering what's up with the future of this company. Can you give us a little bit of narration on what brought you back the things you did and where the company is today? Yeah. Let me try and go back to when I returned as an interim CEO in April of 22. I was asked by the board to come back to the company and I said no. My life has changed. I have no desire to come back. I have no intent to come back. But it was clear to me as the weeks were going on that the company was heading into an existential crisis. And if your listeners take anything away from what we've talked about is my love of the company is so significant that I change my life and

3:04:55I came back to the company. Now, when I came back and I want to be fair, I don't want to criticize anyone. But when I came back, I saw things that really surprised me about the lack of investment over a four to five year period. And also, I didn't like the way the stock buybacks were being used to basically increase EPS. And it's not a way to run a company.

3:05:25day I came back and I knew what the market would do is I announced that we were suspending the stock buybacks and stock went down. I expected it and I announced that we were going to take basically the money we're using to stock buybacks for the year and I think it was north of two billion dollars and invest back into the people of Starbucks, the partners, which I did. The most important thing I did though is I'm not a messiah.

3:05:51But I have an instinct about the company and I know the inner workings with the company better than any else. I know the people. And so in a year's time, despite the underinvestment and the challenges, we brought the company back to a much healthier place operationally and certainly the stock price was significantly higher when I left.

3:06:12Came back when I when I started it was in the 70s when I left it was you know, but that's an output That's investors voting on the performance. Yeah, yeah, we wouldn't have to talk about the stock price you don't want to nevertheless Again succession and the board led a succession process You have to remember I wasn't on the board for for long for five years And I resigned when I when I decided to Leave the company after a year despite the board asking me to stay another year. I just said I've I've done my duty. We have to find it as you want you to be interim CEO for a second. Yeah, they wanted it was up. It was up to me. I just thought we and so the board let a search There was a number of candidates Laxon was chosen. I met him. I approved his

3:07:11hiring, but the search commodity was driving the process. So now we're a year later. And I think probably let's just fast forward. It hasn't been a great year for Starbucks. In fairness to Laxman, there's a lot of external issues that have contributed to the pressure like on every company, but the company has not executed the way that I think it should have. I go into the stores, you know.

3:07:44Like I know the company and I think we're not, we're not our best right now. Why'd I write the letter? I didn't write the letter because he had a bad interview on Kramer. This tunneling didn't? Yeah. I wrote the letter because I had written a couple of other letters. Probably the iconic letter I wrote was entitled The Soul of the Brand. And I was writing that letter because I was able, I don't get financial information. So I don't have any understanding whether the company's making the quarter or not. I was as surprised as anyone else.

3:08:16to see the dramatic drop in revenue and profit. But I wrote the soul of the brand because I could smell instinctively that there were things going on that just did not feel right to me that the shine was off the brand. That partners were maybe not as inspired as they had been. The first thing I want to say is I've made it clear to the Starbucks board, Howard Schultz, and I've made it clear to Laxman.

3:08:44Howard Jones has no desire or intent to return as CEO of Starbucks. If you won, I'll say it again. But I don't. But I can't ignore what we've just discussed for the last few hours if the company is doing a drift towards mediocrity. And I hold leadership and the board responsible for that. And my letter was not accusatory. My letter was not predatory.

3:09:15My letter was steeped in council and advice based on 40 plus years of experience in building this company. That's the advice and council I'm giving you. If you want to take the advice, it's up to you. If you don't, you're responsible for the outcome. And so I'm not, I have no operational role. I'm not on the board. And I'm watching from afar and rooting and cheering for Starbucks. And I wrote the letter, and hope that it would be a catalyst for a positive interpretation. And what were your recommendations in the letter? The one thing is, we're not a beverage company serving coffee. We are a coffee company serving people. And we need to be much more coffee forward, and we cannot continue to allow the mobile app to be a runaway train.

3:10:14that is going to consistently dilute the integrity of the experience of Starbucks. We're not in the transaction business. We have to execute transactions, but that has to go through the lens of being an experienced business, an experienced place. People are longing for human connection, even if they're on a mobile app. Let's provide it. But I also recognize this is a complex time. It's difficult.

3:10:45That's your job. Yeah. Makes sense. Well, to finish the episode, I can definitely say as a unabashed fan, the same way I opened the episode, rooting for everyone over, you know, a few miles away to pull it off. Thank you very much. I think Starbucks is so resilient. Starbucks has had many, many challenges. I have great faith in the company and the equity of the brand and the people.

3:11:16who were the cloth of the company, the green apron. Yeah. Thanks, Howard. Thanks, Howard. Thank you. Great. Really enjoyed it. All right, listeners. Now is a great time to talk about one of our favorite companies, Statsig. Yes. There is a reason why the best product teams rely on Statsig, whether they are iterating on their core product features or shipping AI-powered experiences at scale. Yep. In the...

3:11:43crazy speed of today's AI world. Shipping fast is just table stakes now. It's basically trivial to build and deploy your app constantly. The real advantage is how quickly you learn what changes actually created value for customers, and how fast you can use that signal to guide what you shipped next. This is where Statsig comes in. It brings experimentation, feature flags, and product analytics into one unified system so teams can ship safely, test rigorously, and directly link what they changed to how users actually behaved.

3:12:14So if you want to make learning your competitive advantage, whether you're building new AI experiences or just evolving your existing core product, go to statsig.com slash acquired to get started. All right, well, listeners, thank you for being on the journey with us. That was super fun to do with Howard. If you want to talk about this episode, come to the Slack acquired.fm slash slack. And if you want to Keep going with acquired. You're out of episodes. You've decided that I've listened to the entire back catalogue and I really wish they had a second show. Good news. We have one. So check out ACQ2. Lots more interviews there and I know the back log and it's only getting better from here. And you can imagine that having a great piece in the Wall Street Journal and hitting number one on Apple and Spotify, which we will reflect on at some point, a totally surreal few weeks here, certainly.

3:13:04Prime the pump for a whole bunch of great interviews that we've got coming on ACQ2. And listeners, we will see you next time. We'll see you next time.