How to Be a Better Human - Why should you care about animal sex? (w/ Perrin Ireland)

0:04Chris DuffyThis is how to be a better human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy. There's a conversation I had several years ago that I have not been able to stop thinking about since. I was interviewing a bonobo expert, which I understand is a totally bizarre sentence to be able to say, but that's just how my life goes. Sometimes I'm talking to a bonobo expert. So I'm talking to this bonobo expert, and she tells me that one of the reasons she thinks bonobos are so important to study is because they are very closely related to humans, and yet they defy so many of our expectations about what is natural and how the wild world supposedly works. Bonobos are matriarchal, and they tend to resolve conflicts with physical touch, grooming, and sex rather than violence and attack. Now, another one of our relatives on the other hand, chimpanzees, they are patriarchal and they're often violent to each other during conflicts. We are closely related to both Bonobos and chimpanzees, but for some reason,

0:57Chris Duffywe have decided that what is natural is the chimpanzee method for males to be in charge and for there to be violence and bloodshed. If you think about that for even just a few seconds, you realize that the idea that there's only one natural and that there's a strictly defined way of doing things, that does not hold up to scrutiny. That's not how actual nature works. And I think if we want to be better humans, we should both acknowledge that we are animals and sometimes driven by our biology.

1:23Chris DuffyBut also question what exactly the story that we are being told about that biology is because it is often being used to shame or exclude people for not fitting into dominant cultural narratives. Today's guest, Perin Ireland, wants to change all that. She wants to shatter the myths about what is and isn't natural so that maybe we can have a broader view of our own place in the ecosystem and think differently about what actually is natural about ourselves after all.

1:52Chris DuffyPerrin wrote and illustrated the fantastic new book, Poking the Squid, What We Can Learn from Animal Sex. So today on How to Be a Better Human, we're going to ask that exact question, one that you probably have not asked yourselves before. What can we learn from animal sex? To get us started, we're going to jump right into the deep end with a clip from Perrin's extremely popular online series, Thirsty Science, and this is a clip where Perrin is talking about the rear ends of sea cucumbers.

2:20Perrin IrelandToday on Thirsty Science, the magical sea cucumber anus. Sea cucumbers use their baffles, number one, as a second mouth to filter feed on algae. Number two, when they're reproducing and they need more oxygen because they're consuming a lot of energy, they use their baffle to breathe. Number three, as a defense mechanism, they eject these sticky two-pules out of their anuses to entangle predators.

2:48Perrin IrelandAnd number four, sometimes they house a little friend in their butthole, the pearlfish, which for some reason doesn't activate their tubules and has more resistance to kind of their internal poison to invasions than other fish. Pearlfish just kind of hang out inside the sea cucumber butthole. Have you already learned things that you never thought you would learn? I know that I have. And we have so much more to come. We are just getting started. We're going to be right back with more from Perrin after this quick break.

3:25Chris DuffyToday, we're talking about what we can learn about being human from challenging our preconceived ideas of what's happening in the animal world. And we're doing that with our guest, Perrin Ireland. Hi, I'm Perrin Roosevelt Ireland, an artist and environmentalist and author of poking the squid, what we can learn from animal sex. Let's just start with, for people who aren't already familiar with your work.

3:49Chris DuffyPoking the Squid is not a normal nonfiction book. And I don't just mean in terms of topic, in terms of form too. So can you tell people about the way that your work looks and why it looks that way? Sure, I think I can...

4:01Perrin Irelandshow a little. Yeah, yeah. So I work in watercolor comics and the way that I learned my biology degree in undergraduate where we met is by drawing what I was finding in lab. While I pretended I wanted to be a scientist when I actually just wanted to make art about science the whole time. And so it's exciting to hear you say that it's not like other science writing books because it is

4:27Chris Duffyin serious conversation with what's happening inside the academy and feminist and queer theory, but it's like coming inside my journals and my sketchbooks of how I learned my way through that, which is hand drawn watercolor comics. And you know, I think most people who when they think about like watercolor or they think about art in general, they don't think about a person working.

4:51Chris DuffyFor example, the National Resources Defense Council, they don't think about a person being like a serious science person as well. They think about it as like art and science as separate things. So how did those two come together for you? If something doesn't make sense to me, the problem is how it was explained. It's not that I can't get difficult things, which is a wild way to go through the world. I didn't really know that, but.

5:18Perrin IrelandFor me, it's really about, I think, a combination of wanting to unpack things and understand how they work and also wanting to treasure them. So I make really goofy work during a Six Mass Extinction. And so even though I am trying to be playful and I find a lot of nature to be an excellent practical joke on us, on deep time, on evolutionary time, on whatever, I also am making eulogies.

5:47Perrin Irelandas I go and it feels urgent and important to be treasuring and documenting and paying homage, which I am someone who happens to do with watercolor paint, each animal in this particular precipice that we're on. Honestly, I handed copy to the College Hill Independent about a new jellyfish study and my editor, Rachel Blatt said, okay, this is okay, but can you draw it? And I went and made my first like science comic.

6:17Perrin IrelandAnd I've been translating journal papers by making science comics ever since and then got to go do that at NRDC, the Natural Resources Defense Council for 10 years in conversation with policy advocates and lawyers. And the mission the entire time has been, I'm comfortable in these spaces asking these people questions, but like just inviting people in to what is happening behind closed doors in these labs that is life changing.

6:44Chris Duffyfor me. I imagine what most people are going to ask you about right as soon as they see the title of this book, which is the subtitle, which is what we can learn about animal sex. Why should people care about how animals have sex and what animal sex looks like or is?

7:02Perrin IrelandPeople respond in a very human way to animal sex and to stories about animal sex, which is their right. It just happens to be the case that I think then a whole rich conversation can unfold. So I think people should care about how animals get their rocks off because animals are sexual geniuses when we think about how animals have sex.

7:23Perrin Irelandhow they reproduce and how they have non-reproductive sex or how they asexually reproduce or any combination of the above, which many animals are partaking of all different versions of that in one lifetime.

7:34Perrin Irelandwe learn so much about life's genius at making more of itself and how good life is at continuing to live, which again, during a six mass extinction is a balmy self for despair and hopelessness. And the way that the powers that be, in my opinion, would like us to disconnect and disinvest from the fates of our more than human kin. The other thing I would say is that, you know, I think that it's, for me, it's a pleasurable invitation, like, I'm a child of the 90s, so I only ever grew up in a conversation about extinction already. And for me, taking pleasure in learning about animals when there's so much shame and guilt associated with the fates of animals right now is a really important resilience tool. But the last thing I'll just say is I also think when we learn about the sexual diversity of animals, we learn sexual diversity is a form of biodiversity.

8:26Chris DuffyAnd I think it liberates our minds and maybe allows us to be better partners, not only to biodiversity, but also to the sexual diversity in humans that is so under attack right now. You are doing work that is surprising because it is art. And so art is really accessible, cartoons, comics, they're really accessible. But there are about these topics that otherwise I wouldn't be learning about. Many of the people who are reading your book or looking at your Your artwork would never hear about otherwise because we're not reading the scientific journals about, you know, different types of condors or, you know, the lizard diversity. The other thing, though, that really is striking to me is there's a real like a political message that people have around what is and I'm going to put this in big quotes, right? Natural. And I think it's so interesting how you have put up a real defense of.

9:22Perrin Irelandwhat actually is natural and how natural is so far from being limiting. In fact, it is incredibly broad and continues to be discovered how incredibly broad it is. This book is an argument that it can feel good to learn hard things.

9:38Perrin IrelandWe are allowed to have a good time learning hard things. And because I do, and I have all this privilege when I move through those spaces of race and class and what I've been taught about my capacity since I was young and all of it, all of it, then I feel my work is to make that intelligible and enjoyable for as many people as possible. Comics is such a...

10:01Perrin Irelandvery utilized, very popular, very maligned, underground discipline historically. And Alison Bechdel and other people that are working with theory in their comics, you know, I'm not the first one to do this by any stretch, but it's exciting to join that community of people to really say, no, we can grapple intensely with feminist theory while we're also like swinging some ductics. But I think all the smartest people I talked to in making this book were a little bit like, Beware of naturalizing anything, because that will come back to bite us at some point. So if you look at a movie like March of the Penguins, that was really popular with the evangelical right, and it seems to really naturalize and normalize monogamy.

10:48Perrin IrelandBut then when you talk to the scientists that study emperor penguins, they're like, oh, at least a third of those couples were same sex pairs. And the divorce rate in emperor penguins is 86%. So it's like the minute we try to grasp anything to land on an answer, we're going to be in trouble kind of soon. You know, I had a conversation with the science writer Riley Black, who's an out trans woman at the beginning of my process when I was doing research for the seahorse section of the book.

11:12Perrin IrelandAnd seahorses have become popular with trans dads. On Instagram, they use this hashtag seahorsedad as a way to find companionship in the journey of identifying as male and developing a body inside your body. And seahorses do that, and they teach us so much about pregnancy, which I talk about in the book. But Riley Black told me in that conversation that she and her partner have a meme that they really love, where in one panel, it's a comic, In one panel, a trans person's trying to talk to a cis person about gender, and they're like in a nursery classroom, you know, with playing with building blocks. And in the next panel, a trans person is talking to a trans person about gender, and it's like a dissertation level thesis. And because I am like that competitive bitch, when she was telling me that story, I was like,

12:04Perrin IrelandI'm gonna get out in nursery school in the course of making this book and I'm gonna graduate kindergarten by the time I'm done learning from these animals. And so I feel so comfortable standing behind how much they teach us about sexual diversity because doing the research to understand what does sex mean blew my mind and I came out of that process so much more humble about how I would never presume to tell any organism.

12:30Perrin Irelandhow they should or could or would organize sex inside a body, respond to chromosomes, hormones, manifest genitalia, who they should fuck with when, like, it explodes all of those ideas. And that's natural, I think. What is very earthly to me about that is, Marlene Zuck says, and I quote her at some point in the book, people think that biology makes rules, but actually the study of biology demolishes them.

12:57Chris DuffySo one of the things that you start in the book with is a quote from the historian of science, Beans Veloci. And Bean says, sex is just about everything and therefore also nearly nothing. It makes me realize in a way I hadn't really thought of before that I think I know what the word sex means. But in fact, sex can be so many different things. You talk about how it can be behaviors, it can be biology, it can be life history, it can be more, it can be a noun, a verb, an adjective. So a lot of.

13:26Chris Duffywhat animal sex looks like is also trying to figure out, well, what do we mean by the word sex? How do you currently think about what the word sex means? And especially in terms of the animal world and the natural world. The most simple way I think about it is that sex is composed of many different variables that are in conversation with each other in different combinations in different bodies. And I'd start with hyenas because there's such a good example of

13:55Perrin Irelandthere's the sex that they have, right? My goal was really to talk about how animals bury their boners, if I may. Really, what's the verb of sex? Like, how are they polishing the purpose? But the reason that I had difficulty doing that straight up is that I would be in a journal paper, and they would be talking about sex as a verb, but they would be talking about the sex of the animal and then what it did as a result of them sexing them in that way.

14:23Perrin Irelandwhat it meant about the kind of caregiver they would be, what it meant about the way its society was organized, what it meant about the energetic investment that it was putting into making different sex cells, and it was doing different combinations of those things in different papers and in many papers, multiple uses in the same paper.

14:43Perrin IrelandSo I think about this little three-letter word being like so tuckered out. I'm like, sweetie, we really put you to work. We make you do so much, so much. How can one little word hold all of that? There's this kind of like cool kids club in evolutionary biology of a couple of different groups that were co-authoring literature reviews together or Inside evolutionary biology, you can have sort of testing of theory papers and you can have theory papers. And the people that are writing the theory papers say, test this theory. We want you to go into the lab and test this now, but we're putting forward something we think might be new theory that we're developing. And then there are the people that are like, these are the observations we made. We tested this in this amount of organisms, whatever. And so I started to kind of track these cool kids. Beans is in that crew, Julia Monk is in that crew, Ambika Kamath, tons of them, they're all over.

15:34Perrin IrelandAnd I was like, wait, these people wrote a paper over here saying that the word sex is being used in all of these expansive ways, but it actually means many things. And then these people over here are arguing that we look at it this other way. So I started going to each of them and saying, what does sex mean? I'm confused. I don't understand what sex means. And some of them like beans would say, you're not crazy to be reading all that you're reading and to think we haven't really landed what it means. We haven't.

16:04Perrin IrelandAnd then others of them would say what was true for their study species. So sex is which animal makes which gamete or sex cell. Sex is which animal contributes sperm to a copulation. Sex is which chromosomes an animal has. And then I talked to a different scientist who would have accidentally stumbled on a finding that upended that.

16:31Perrin IrelandAnd it was really cool to be with these really smart people that have devoted their lives to these animals who were staying in that humility too. And to get comfortable with them in there's not an agreed upon definition inside the academy of biological sex, which means when we see it used outside the academy to restrict human rights, that's a lie.

16:53Perrin IrelandThat is not some scientific classifiable statement that's being used. And I think Sam Sharp put it the best when they said to me, you know, each scientist knows what sex means for their study species. We just don't all do the work every time of clarifying what specifically we mean when we say the word, when we go back out in our journal papers or to speak to the community.

17:16Perrin IrelandWhy don't you tell us why hyenas are an interesting example of humans struggling to put their own messy understanding onto the natural world? Well, so hyenas have been in long-term relationship with indigenous peoples in Africa for hundreds of thousands of years, right? And the way that they've been talked about is sort of in this liminal space. They're shapeshifters. They're moving between worlds. Sometimes they're not trusted for that reason. Sometimes they're revered for that reason.

17:46Perrin IrelandAnd Aristotle is really obsessed with them because the legend about them. when he is doing his research is that they're hermaphrodites. And this is a word that is still in use in science that we never use to apply to humans that is often used to describe an animal that has multiple sexual functions in one body at one time. And there's different ways to categorize hermaphrodites within the sciences. Many fish will shift sexes across a lifetime, so they're called sequential hermaphrodites. But the ones that have or maybe making both sperm and eggs in their body at the same time are classified as simultaneous hermaphrodites.

18:21Perrin Irelandscience. So Kay Holkamp is the scientist I'm obsessed with. She's based out of U Michigan. She inherited and now runs. She's been running for 40 years, the longest running spotted hyena study on the Masamara. And they have like these amazing like real housewives of the Masamara, like dynastic maps of the hyena hierarchies, because they're really tightly run. The alpha female, they're they're in a matriarchy. The alpha female is dosing her babies with androgens.

18:50Perrin IrelandThey literally come out the womb swinging is how Christine Dreia described it to me. She was like, I've never seen an animal be born fighting like that. But the alpha females daughters are defending their rank tutor style from the day they're born. But what happens is scientists will be in the field and they will be sexy hyenas who seem to have penises. And in this case, when you say sexy, you mean trying to determine whether they are male or female. Yeah.

19:18Perrin IrelandSo they're building their map of like, this is this community, that one's interacting with that one, that one fought with that one. That one we call a male and we've named him X and this one's female and we've named her Y. And then the males kept getting pregnant because hyenas have a pseudo penis or the more feminist biologists say it's an externalized clitoris, which is, you know, an externalized clitoris and it has baffled scientists and they've been obsessed with it. Like if you watch the last 30 years of nature documentaries about hyenas ask me how I know the the incredible amount of like gender essentialism and I would say transphobia in describing these animals that are not definable in the ways we're comfortable with and my trans friends always tell me like cis people are obsessed with genitalia you guys are obsessed with genitalia and what it means about a body and we do that with hyenas too and the reason I mentioned the androgens earlier is

20:18Perrin IrelandThey've done studies to, they were like, okay, well the androgens are what's making them have these externalized clitorises and they've done studies where they've knocked out the androgens.

20:28Perrin IrelandAnd they still develop them. So we can't even in hyenas map this hormonal bath that we are used to associating with the development of certain body parts onto the way that their anatomy takes shape. And of course, they're like only newly being admitted to zoos because they were so disliked for so long. We're going to take a quick break and then we will be right back with more from parent after this. OK, we are back. Another question that people really

21:07Chris Duffythink about I think in the natural world is what is a relationship? What is love? What is commitment? And there's a whole section that is about albatrosses. Albatrosses are often thought of as these paragons of monogamy because they fly millions of miles of our lifetime. Their lifetimes can be up to 70 years, but every year they come back to the same partner. And divorce rates for what it is, I have been very low among these particular type of black-browed albatrosses. And so people have kind of put this whole narrative like that is the model of natural monogamy. For me, this section on albatross is really a love letter to the long-term field study, which I think that Hyena researches also because I think

21:51Perrin Irelandfor researchers to spend season after season watching these animals that have long-term relationships with each other like albatross and to have them return each year to the colony. I have loved what I've gotten to get out of those scientists in interviews that might not wind up in the journal paper about what they feel about what they see. But we are, through particularly our behavior in the global north, forcing sea level temperature rise.

22:20Perrin IrelandAnd scientists are finding, in looking at over 30 years of data, Francesco Ventura and his team at the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute found that when a female albatross, when the ocean is hotter, comes back to her breeding colony at the end of what they think was a long, hard winter, searching further afield for less food.

22:43Perrin Irelandshe is inclined to divorce her long-term mate at much higher rates than we've ever previously seen before in these birds. And so one of the things I wanted to really talk about and look at in that section of the book is, I think if we're going to swoon over certain kinds of animal love at this point in planetary history, that means we need to take responsibility for it. Totally. We're forcing them apart. And so what do we want to do about that if we love these unions so much?

23:12Chris DuffyThere are several types of albatrosses that you talk about. One is the black-browed. The other is the lasian, I think that's how you say it. Lasan. The lasan albatross. And the lasan albatross, there's a very funny story about how in 2007, First Lady Laura Bush of the United States went to visit these lasan albatrosses to highlight natural monogamy and how faithful they were to each other. And kind of the traditional family values version of these birds.

23:39Chris DuffyAnd she didn't realize at the time that a very significant portion of these monogamous couples were actually same-sex female-female couples of albatrosses. To me, that's just very funny that she's like, look at these birds, they're doing it right the way that it's meant to be doing. And then the birds are like, actually, this does not fit your politics the way that you think that it does. It's an interesting example of how when we put our human lens on animals, we can often get it wrong. I like really take delight in at readings, reading that section.

24:09Perrin Irelandwhen you know there's a drawing I made of Laura Bush holding one of the eggs that the scientist is showing her and it's like she's holding an incubating lesbian that's gonna grow into an adult lesbian one day. And for me it's also like the way that nature is kind of perpetually pulling pranks on us. Like in the end papers, I have a bunch of charcoal drawings of animal genitalia. And there's this really kind of juicy, foreheaded penis surrounded by all these spines. And that belongs to an echidna.

24:44Perrin IrelandKidneys are this like tiny, adorable little marsupial and then they have like a four-headed penis and they only use two heads at a time and no one understands why. And it just for me is like the joy of spending time with animals and spending time thinking about animals and their irreverence and their relentless creativity. Like these lasers are forming these alternative partnerships in response to an ecological and a social need.

25:11Perrin IrelandAnd we don't always have to ascribe reasons for same sex, pairs and animals. And the evidence indicates it's an adaptive response. Talking about queerness as an adaptive response is radical right now. But I just love that it's like this combination of just goofing on us and just living their lives and goofing on us until we advance the technology and can actually understand what's happening while they also are so good at living their lives.

25:40Chris DuffyYou reached out to people about albatrosses and the story of how albatrosses get together once a year. Oh, yes. For about 10 days, maybe at a time. But every year for an entire lifetime, for maybe 70 years, they could be together.

25:54Perrin Irelandfor this short period of time. And what were people's responses? Oh, people said incredible things. And I had couples respond. You know, some of them would be like, oh, there must be a ton of therapy. And another was like, that's an intense nine days. And it's like, oh, I wonder, I wonder what their conversations are like. And, you know, then there would be sort of more swoony ones where a friend said something like, you know, I'm a child of divorce with commitment issues and climate change is stressful and relationships are stressful. And I think this is reasonable.

26:22Perrin IrelandOr another friend was like, wow, thinking about love and the era of climate change is so swoonworthy. It just makes you, we have to fly further afield for each other and we have to really dedicate ourselves to each other. And it's so fun the way people come out of the woodwork. And this like one step removed proxy opens up these conversations. Like a lot of parents are asking me if the book is kid friendly.

26:48Perrin Irelandwhich I just think depends on what, you know, the conversations you're having in your home. And I think comics can be like that, right? Like people are sending me these photos of like seven year olds spending 45 minutes with a book. And I have no idea what they're taking in or not. And I'm just not too worried about it. You have a lot of research in your book. One of the other books that you quote is a book that's called, What Would Animals Say If We Were Asking the Right Questions? So obviously,

27:17Chris Duffythat is another book. But I'm curious for you, with what you've learned and with what you've written, what are the right questions that we should be asking? And what would animals say? I think the right question we could ask is, what do we need to do to support these animals in having the best sex they possibly can for as long as possible? I sort of make a joke in the end of the book that I'm forming the society to save slap and tickle to conserve kink lords. But I actually am curious, like,

27:47Perrin IrelandIn an environmental movement, which I came of age in, where we're so it's like, defend, protect, stop, you know, the assault is so intense. What would it look like to orient environmental policy around like, how could they best get their rocks off?

28:05Perrin IrelandBecause when we remove habitat, when we destroy these far-flung breeding colonies, these albatross are living on, if you look at pictures, they are living in piles of our plastic trash. And that's not sexy. So what's this sexy as possible way we can support them?

28:24Chris DuffyThat's a great question, and it goes right back to the dedication of your book is, this book is for the last wild creatures having the last wild sex in the last wild places on earth. May their cries of passion haunt us forever. What's another question that you think we should be asking animals? I would love to know what their experience of pleasure and orgasm is, because...

28:43Perrin IrelandIt's kind of this wall in science where, you know, Patty Brennan, who we spend a lot of time with in the book, she's incredible, really expansive thinking evolution of biologists. But she's like, you can't ask a dolphin if they orgasm. We find these huge clits inside dolphins, highly innervated. They have the corpuscles of pleasure that clitorises and human bodies have. But we can't outright ask them, what are you using this for? And particularly with dolphins.

29:12Perrin Irelandsince they echolocate as a form of oral sex. And since because they echolocate, an echolocation is packaging information in sound, and high frequency sound contains far more information than the range that humans can hear. And for me to tell you, Chris, something I've seen, something I've felt, something I've experienced, I have to package it up and give it to you in words.

29:37Perrin IrelandThere is a theory that dolphins do not repackage information they share with each other, that they kind of like beam a direct line. And this is one of the theories that is used to explain stranding behaviors. If they are not repackaging what they communicate to each other, might they have a concept of the individual that extends between bodies and organisms? And might that be why they strand because they're moving as one? But what?

30:04Perrin IrelandDoes that imply about their sex lives? What is a pod wide orgasm like if that's possible? I'm speculating. You said that they use echolocation as a form of oral sex or like they are. Yeah, they're like clicking and buzzing. And that is pleasurable for them, potentially. I worked at a dolphin lab right after high school. I worked in the lab of Dr. Lou Herman. The lab is shut down now, but he kind of inherited John C. Lilly's work on cognition and memory and dolphins.

30:33Perrin IrelandAnd there was this hilarious veterinarian and she, it's called a rostrum to genital, the behavior, but as the interns, we would do 24 hour ops. So we'd be there in the middle of the night and that's when dolphins are sexually active. And we'd be writing, you write, Ross Jenny, she'd be like, that's a Ross Jenny. So I would be like, Ross Jenny, Ross Jenny, Ross Jenny. And it's when they, yeah, they put their rostrum on the other's genitals and they click and buzz. Whoa. Yeah. Yeah. That is wild. Fascinating. I'll just lay my cards on the table that I

31:03Chris DuffyI'm certainly not like opposed but I consider myself to be a little bit of like a prude having an open sexual conversation I'm like blushing from ear to ear bright be read. That's not my my natural state. I find that this is like a little challenging and I'm a little bit like oh boy I'm uncomfortable and I think that that is maybe a good thing. My argument would be we as humans creates so much meaning and such a narrative over what is normal and what is natural. And when we think we know the answers to those questions, we exclude groups of people or we exclude types of behaviors or we treat things that shouldn't be normal as normal and other things that should be normal as not normal if we understand nature in a different way.

31:54Chris Duffyit changes how we understand ourselves. Like, that's why this is on a show called How to Be a Better Human. Am I missing something? Is that too limited? What do you think about why a human should understand this?

32:05Perrin IrelandWell, there's something for everybody in the book. So when we're in the albatross monogamy section, you may notice we don't really talk about how they are making the eggs they're making or how those lesbians are spending time together. I do a little bit at the end. But I wanted to have it build over time where there's these sort of like long-term love partnerships that I think we've been socialized to be more comfortable with and that also a lot of people get a lot of fulfillment and meaning out of and have a lot of value.

32:32Perrin IrelandIn animals, they're very contextualized inside the environment they're in and the community they're in, which I think a lot of our monogamous relationships would benefit from more of. And then we move all the way to, oh, this animal will change what sex it is.

32:48Perrin Irelandmultiple times in a copulation with another animal like this sort of exploding of your mind is meant to happen across the progression of the book and I think I don't even track at this point and I will be in conversations with people where I'm like and then he stabs her with his penis and then she and it's like oh this is really extreme for a lot of people. But Chris then I think about how hurt I am by what is happening to many children in our country that everybody in charge is perpetuating in many cases to children right like what happens when we do moralize sex does not make sex safer it does not make people safer it does not make children safer and it does not make lgbtq trans community that i value safer and so i do think that we can be a better human

33:44Perrin Irelandby learning again that sexual diversity is a form of biodiversity and that you know when an animal is manifesting what works for that animal in its ecological niche in the moment it's in an evolutionary time if there is this sort of allowing of those options and we talk about them again one step removed from our own experiences what might it open up

34:08Chris Duffyfor safer conversations about this issue and for more of this being out in the light. You talk about how the idea that sex and mating are weird. You say in my late 90s sex ed classes they were implying that sex was weird and you say I deeply internalized the idea that I must keep any sexual desire I had a secret as if it was something to be feared punishable by social shaming or way worse if revealed.

34:34Chris DuffyAs a girl, I should be modest. My pleasure isn't a priority and sex is mostly for having kids or for pleasing men. As we've covered, this view pervades animal research to this day. So there's this way in which that view affected you personally as a person. It also has affected the kinds of things that we know about the natural world because of the kinds of things that are acceptable to study. I did a bit at Amber Tamblin's Union Hall holiday show and I did

35:03Perrin Irelanda bit about this general morphologist Patricia Brennan. It's a section of the book where she makes these dental silicone what she calls vaginal popsicles, where she only works with animals that are already dead, right? She doesn't euthanize animals for her research, which is a little like subethical commitment that I found kind of interesting. So there was a gynecologist working in the early aughts on her patients taking consensual dental silicone molds of their vaginas to understand how if possibly, different lived experiences might change a person's anatomy and then what they were working with medically. And her male colleagues told her that it was not medically relevant research. And then Patricia Brennan now uses that technique 20 years later. And I did this whole bit about the vaginal popsicles and Alana Glazer came on stage after me and she opened her bit being like, when Perrin was talking, I wondered, am I conservative?

36:03Perrin IrelandBecause I'm like, so as we've discussed, I'm balls deep in these animal vaginas, like really in this world where, you know, when I started to learn how Darwin described female animals in Victorian England, I was like, Oh, no, yeah, that's what I was taught. I would read Cosmo, and I was learning how to give the best blowjob of all time, but I wasn't supposed to exhibit any desire. I wasn't supposed to actually experience pleasure. I wasn't supposed to pursue anyone. You know, I was supposed to be demure. I need it right. It's like all of these exhausting configurations I felt were in a feedback loop with the prevailing way that we study both, you know, human females and female animals. And

36:49Perrin IrelandI think that this is all relevant right now because some of the researchers that I interviewed for this book are now having to submit grants to study non-male animals. They're not even allowed to say the word female. And I laugh, but like it's really bleak. And I do think that the lack of information about what it is that different animals want, what their anatomy is, what they're in pursuit of, has direct repercussions on the lives that different individuals are allowed to live. Absolutely. And even on a more, I guess,

37:19Chris Duffymore basic level, the fact that female animals have been considered more complicated to study because they could be pregnant or, for example, lab mice were almost always male. And that has then changed that we don't fully understand how medicines and drugs would affect a female organism versus a male organism. We have tons of information about how it affects a male and not very much about a female for many different things, this history of science. So it comes down to just even an understanding of basic health or how drugs would work. There's often this insistence in science of categorizing things as male or female, and you have some very funny examples, I think, of times when that has happened that doesn't necessarily make sense or make any sense at all. I was deep into my tenure at NRDC. I think I'd been there nine years, and my manager said to me, we were traveling and there were these electrical cords.

38:14Perrin IrelandAnd he said to me, can you hand me the female part? And I was like, are you sexually harassing me? That's disgusting. And this is like a very polite person. And it was my first time learning that with electrical equipment, they talk about a male part and a female part. And we ascribe like being penetrated and being entered as a female quality. And there are some great examples in nature that absolutely defy that. And yes, I love so much.

38:43Chris Duffythis space station where Russia and the US, neither of them wanted to be the female part. And so they created this like androgynous system so that both of the space stations could identify as male. So when they're docking the two parts, neither, even though there is truly nothing male or female about the way that a space station sticks into another space station, they had to invent an entirely new type of coupling because neither country wanted to be the female part.

39:11Perrin IrelandYeah, to be penetrated. We are ascribing value to these things when we do that. And so we have to watch how we do that through science and animals because we generate these feedback loops of the stories we tell and what bodies are worth studying and what aren't as a result. You know, we've talked about how there's a danger of anthropomorphizing animals too much and putting our own human politics and hangups on them. But there's also this way in which seeing

39:40Chris Duffyanimals and natural examples that reflect how we feel and how we operate in the world can make us feel normal and not like an aberration. There were two examples in the book. One was your own experience of what learning about sex and nature and these messages told you about yourself. There's also a researcher who had been abused as a child and then looked at that abuse through the lens of their research. Can you tell us that story really quick? Yes.

40:07Perrin IrelandDr. Eileen Hebbets, who I heard on a podcast in her graduate work as she was studying spiders, starting to identify that she had what she would call, because she's a scientist, a phenotype of people she was attracted to. And in the process of starting to interrogate her attraction model, she uncovered and started to actually treat this childhood sexual abuse experience from a person outside her family. And what she did that I love so much. And I wrote to her asking if I could include the story in my book and draw about this research because I was so moved by it. Is she let that shape the questions she asked of animals? Spiders are very sexually dimorphic. And so an adult female is often multiple times larger than the male that they will meet with.

41:00Perrin IrelandAnd they often cannibalize their mates after they mate with them. And they get a little snack while they're also starting to incubate eggs. And she did some research that you can see me spell it out in the book about the attraction models that spiders had, female spiders had, based on who they were exposed to in their youth. And what I love so much about her research and what she found is that she unapologetically reclaimed that experience and brought it into the lab and let it shape the questions that she wanted to ask of animals, which to me is deeply feminist practice. And particularly I feel like I learned about that practice from black feminism of letting the intersections of our identities shape the questions that we ask in the world. I think it's also there's something really powerful too about just this idea that sometimes, you know, we get caught up in the what is natural and what is unnatural. But for her,

41:58Chris Duffyit was a really healing thing to be like this thing that I've experienced that I'm somewhat disturbed by or uncomfortable with is actually something I can see in the natural world that having an adverse exposure when I was young could change the things that I'm looking for as an adult. And that's not me somehow being broken. That is a natural process. Yeah, really, really beautiful. And I think also to me, there's something really feminist about being in relationship to nature in that way, letting it speak back to us, letting it imprint back on us, and have something to say to us that changes how we understand our own stories in the world. Perron, Ireland, thank you so much for being on the show. Thank you for writing the book. Thank you for the work that you do. This was a really interesting, fantastic conversation. I'm so glad we got to do it. Thank you for having me, Chris. It was such a joy.

42:50Chris DuffyThat is it for today's episode of How to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much for listening. Before I read the credits, we are still doing our listener survey, and we need more responses. It makes a huge difference in helping us shape the future of our show. Tell us what you like, what you don't like, what you think we could do more of, what topics you'd like to hear. It is a huge, huge help if you can fill out that survey. It just takes a few seconds. There is a link that you can click on in the episode description wherever you're listening to this or watching this. Or you can go to bit.ly slash bh survey six.

43:20Chris Duffythat's b-i-t dot l-y slash b-h survey six. Thank you so much. It makes a huge difference for the future of our show. Thank you so much to our guest today, Perrin Ireland. Her book is called, Poking the Squid, What We Can Learn from Animal Sex, and you can find her videos and her drawings and illustrations online at experiment.com. That's E-X-P-E-R-R-I-N-M-E-N-T dot com.

43:46Chris DuffyI am your host, Chris Duffy, and you can find information about my book, Humor Me, which is out now about my live show dates and all my other projects at chrisduffycomedy.com.

43:55Chris DuffyHow To Be A Better Human is put together by a team who spend about as much time physically in person as a pair of married albatrosses, and yet our relationship is strong. On the 10th side, poking the squid are Daniela Balarezzo, Banban Chang, Michelle Quint, Chloe Shasha Brooks, Valentina Bohanini, Laini Lat, Tansika Sungmanivong, Antonia Leigh, and Joseph DeBrain. Brian Lash is filming, but I swear the video is suitable for work. And Matteo Salas is not only checking our facts, but he's also checking the framing of all of our assumptions about nature.

44:23Chris DuffyOn the PRX side, like a seahorse carrying its young determ, they do it all. It's Morgan Flannery, Norgill, Patrick Grant, and Jocelyn Gonzalez. Thanks to you, you animal for listening. Please, send this episode to someone who you think would enjoy it, someone who you want to discuss it with. We will be back next week with even more How to Be a Better Human. Until then, take care and stay natural.