Ladies, We Need To Talk - Am I stuck in a sex rut-

0:00Hey ladies, we're making an episode on abortion and we would love to hear from you. If you're someone who has had an abortion, what was that experience like for you? Was access an issue? Did you have to travel into state? Was it something you shared? Or did you keep it to yourself?

0:16Because here's the thing. Compared to America, we like to think our reproductive rights are pretty solid in Australia. But if you're getting an abortion in this country, much of your experience depends on where you live and who your medical team is. And there are moves afoot to try to roll back abortion care. If you have a story and you want to share the costs and the feelings that come with it, send us a voice note to ladies at abc.net.au. ABC Listen.

0:47podcasts, radio, news, music, and more. You know, it's been a long time. I don't really know why we haven't had sex. I don't feel that nice. Like, I'm really wanted. I'm sexy. After a few years, a lot of people will find, you know, what's happened to our sex life? I just kind of went, I need you to make an effort. I feel there's that silence. It's like there's one taboo that we can't talk about. Sex with a new person is like a campfire with jet fuel added.

1:20It's burning hot, the combustion is easy and you're awe-struck by the heat of it all. But when you've fast-forwarded 10 or 20 years and the flames have died right down, you find yourself lying next to the same person but with yellowing underwear and yellowing teeth and your list of adult responsibilities is literally the only thing in your life that keeps replenishing. That urgent need to rip your clothes off has gone and wouldn't work anyway now because all your underwear is Spanx and granny undies.

1:52The fire is barely smouldering. Actually, it's not even smoking. Is it even a fire anymore? Sound familiar? You may have fallen into a sex rut. I'm Yimmy Steins, ladies. We need to talk about climbing out of a sex rut. See, I feel a little frustrated and disappointed because I'd definitely like to have more sex. Ladies, meet Ellen. She's 36 and lives in regional New South Wales.

2:34Ellen met her husband at uni and they've got three kids aged three, six and nine. Ellen sent the ladies' team an email with the subject line, the rut has become a fuck-free chasm. I'm coming to a point where kids are all growing up and I feel these feelings have resurfaced in me and like okay well I feel like we need to sort this out because it seems like a waste to have two people who love each other and are compatible and have great sex to just not ever have sex.

3:04Once upon a time, their sex life was hot and frequent. But 17 years on, it is neither. We don't have sex unless occasionally we do have sex, which is kind of out of the blue. It's about once a year, once every six months. Biannual sex is not the frequency Ellen would choose, but the poor stats are not for lack of effort on her part.

3:26I've done cute outfits, you know, made costume. I've done like the adult board games, the dice, one of those scratch off date ideas. And did it work? No. What did he do? Because he really liked the idea of it and we had a night when the kids weren't there. They stayed at their grandparents and then he ended up working late and it didn't really happen. Working late? Working late?

3:55When your sexy wife had a cute outfit and a sexy game and wants you. He's got this busy corporate job. He feels like he needs to excel at that. That's the most important because then he's provided for us because then we can retire and our kids won't have to stress about money and he can look after his parents if he needs to. And he's taking on responsibility for so many things. So the increasing pressures of adulting have snuck into Ellen's bedroom and stolen her orgasms.

4:25I think it's definitely stress-related because the times that we have come together and had really great sex in recent years have tended to be when we've been away on holiday. I think it really struggles with compartmentalisation. He needs very specific conditions to allow sex into the room.

4:46thought about whether it would help to like get a lock on the bedroom door because he would now would just never want to have sex with the lights on in case the kids might come in. It's like well if the kids come in then they know I walked into my parents having sex and I'm still fine. Like I was four and I'm now fine.

5:06Before the fires of lust were smothered by kids and work and responsibilities, when there were horny uni students, sex very much was a priority. We couldn't get enough of each other. We had to be touching like in public, holding hands and we had lots of sex. It was definitely a big part of our first few years together.

5:28He was very keen on initiating sex in the beginning. Can I ask how he would do it? Just physically touch, pull me in for a kiss and rub his hands down my butt or something like that. The sex was great, great orgasms and we had fun together. I just also liked being wanted. It's just nice to be in that very cosy space and you kind of block out the rest of the world. But now I guess I don't feel...

5:55that I'm really wanted, I'm sexy. There just seems to be this piece missing. What Ellen is experiencing is, unfortunately, extremely common. Sex therapist Georgia Grace sees it all the time. I guess at the start of a relationship, we feel like we're a bit drug-fucked with all of these feel-good neurochemicals. Oxytocin, serotonin and dopamine, these chemicals are flooding through your bloodstream at the start of a new relationship.

6:24The evolutionary instinct in us means we're adapted to find hotty, get hunching, make baby, secure survival of species. With all of that, we often feel this... pull towards this new person. It's really exciting. We're not seeing them all the time. It's the unknown, the novelty. And in that period, a lot of people will describe that they feel really drawn to this person's sex feels like a priority. It feels more possible. But post honeymoon stage, while our emotional connection might be deeper, the chemicals pushing those early horny feelings start to drop.

7:03And so after a few years, a lot of people will find that, you know, what's happened to our sex life? It's not just the sexy love chemicals that fade, but the demands of life ramping up. And, oh no, the resentments. The person who is doing a lot of the work or carrying the mental load or feeling like they're having to be on top of everything and noticing that their partner is just sort of coming towards them for sex and not.

7:30you know, taking any of the other responsibilities. That's not hot for a lot of people. Feeling like you're parenting your partner. Not hot. Yep, got it. And of course there's your actual children. Once you're done feeding them, washing them, forcing them to clip their grody old toenails and putting them to bed, you're tired. And sex feels like just another thing that's going to create more laundry. It's tempting to love on your partner in a physical way that's more platonic and safe.

7:58than raunchy and rude. Often what I'll also hear in session is when we talk about this, a lot of my clients will say, yeah, but we do that. We cuddle and we kiss and we are intimate. And so then I need to make the distinction between emotional intimacy and closeness and safety, which is beautiful and important. But that's really different to like a sexual intimacy. The emotional intimacy might be, oh, you look really nice today. And the sexual intimacy might be, you look so fucking hot. I can't wait.

8:29to see you tonight and so there is a difference between the two and I think that we need both and when I say we need a lot of people identify that they would like both. Yeah. When you say that and I see your two hands doing that, I'm like, mashed potatoes, spicy. Yeah. And we like both. Yeah, totally. But we sometimes we get a lot of mashed potatoes, but no spice. Yeah. And when we're exploring our eroticism, we feel alive and our mashed potatoes will feel really fulfilling and, you know, they'll make sure we're sustained and we can do all the things we need to do throughout the day. But the spice

9:07makes us feel alive. When we started working on this episode about sex rights, I thought, well, we're definitely going to run into the mental load and kids and stress and partners being deadbeats. I was prepared for those blockages. What I was not prepared for was how much our phones have been getting in the way.

9:26There's a stat that one in three Gen Zs are texting during sex. Sounds wild, right? But it is based on anonymous app polls, not rigorous research, so grains of salt and whatnot. But we do know that phones are creeping into every part of our lives, and for some people, that includes intimacy.

9:46Most people have their phones near them at bed so they might be on that to the very last minute before they go to bed and then their partner is there and there's the expectation or a want for a sexual connection that feels impossible for my mind to go from this hypostimulation to remaining present in the moment. Instead of savouring the post-orgasm glow, people are immediately returning to their phones.

10:13So instead of aftercare or taking a moment for each other's bodies, noticing what just happened, like we're just sexual and I'm integrating my sexual self into my everyday self, they're sort of interrupting that and turning straight towards their phones. It's wild. News flash! Having your phone in your head is not getting you closer to pleasure.

10:39There's an emerging body of research into this idea with newly coined terms like technoference and absent presence when you're physically there, but mentally, you're in your phone. I was just like, you know, it's been a long time. I don't really know why we haven't had sex. Ladies, meet Alice. She's 41 and lives in Western Sydney. She's recently worked up the courage to have a heart-to-heart with her husband while he was looking at his screen.

11:09grabbed his phone, turned it off, put it away. But he wasn't very, I guess, engaged in the conversation. I think we're both usually really just burnt out by the end of the day. I think if he has a very, very stressful day to quiet his mind, like playing that game on his phone or sometime he'll actually play games on the PC with friends and they'll do something together online. And how would you describe your sex life at the moment? Nonexistent. Last time Alison and her husband made Sweet Love was close to a year ago and it took a lot of effort and planning. I booked a stay in the city because I wanted to be alone with him and both my kids have a lot of needs so it's not as easy as just dropping them off at someone's place.

12:01But my mum and dad were kind enough to be like, you know, we can do it. Like we'll do it. It's just one night. It'll be all right. Yeah. And he was just like, why are we staying the night in the city? Like we can just drive home. And I was like, we are alone in a bed, in a room with no kids. And he was just like, oh, and I was like, oh, but it worked. Yeah, it worked. But I can't keep booking nights in the city. Even though I wanted it, I was very scared because it had been so long since like.

12:31since we had done it. How long? I think it had been over three years because he said we conceived my daughter and then we didn't have sex. Because of their sleeping arrangements there's just not a lot of space for Alice and her husband to be intimate at home. I co-slipped with my daughter who's three. I had both kids in my bed for probably about a year. There was the four of us. At that point her husband started sleeping in the spare room and eventually I managed to get my son out.

12:59And now I just have to get her out so I can get him back in. Do you think that contributes to your sex right? Oh, yeah. Yeah. You never have to. Yes. Like you're tired, but I think if you're tired next to your partner, it's a bit different. But when you're tired next to a child and, you know, you put them to sleep, a lot of the times I just think like, oh, maybe I'll just go to sleep rather than get up and do other things or sit on the couch with him or even use the spare room with him. Like we just, we don't do it.

13:30Alice says this current state of affairs is a big change from the early years of their relationship. Yeah, it was pretty hot and heavy if you could use that expression. Couldn't get hands off each other, you know, anywhere, any time. If we had to go to a party, it'd be like, do we have time to do it before we go to a party? Let's just do it anyway. Yeah, it was good. But that randy co-conspirator and partner she used to have doesn't really exist anymore. I'm not in an unhappy marriage.

14:00but I could be in a much healthier marriage. I can remember the way he used to look at me. And it was very like, not even just desire, but like in awe. I could tell how much he actually liked me and loved me. But you know, he used to hug me more and hold my hand. I'll just say silly things or silly messages during the day. Just things that make you want to see your partner at the end of the day and be happy to be with them, you know?

14:30And when you're happy like that, it leads to something else when you're alone. So it's not necessarily like the exact words he can say and stuff, but his actions, like, you know, they mean a lot. Oh, my goodness, Lady's plot twist. I went to sleep last night. Pretty. Disappointed. This is Mum of Three, Ellen, again, using her phone to record what goes on as she tries to drag her marriage out of its sex rut.

15:00She's prepped, plucked and prettied herself up, determined to make sex happen. Only to have her partner grab his phone, check his work emails and roll over. But hours later, he was up. And when I say up... I got woken up at 2.30 in the morning by a very horny man, which was a welcome surprise. No, once I had a moment to wake up, it was amazing. So, wee! Somehow that...

15:29The desire must be down there somewhere. It's in there. It gives me hope. We have decided to go out for a little impromptu dinner. Just the two of us. Got a babysitter. And I am going to try and use this opportunity to have a little bit more of a conversation about why the drought has been happening. I'm not going to bring up that it's been, gosh, since like, so the past.

16:02I've lost count 14 years. The last few times Eleanor's tried to talk about their sex life, it hasn't gone well. He became defensive and blamed her instead. Communication is almost impossible if vulnerable conversations make your partner feel attacked. So my attempt at a chat was pretty unsuccessful. Unfortunately, it was...

16:29We got off to a bit of a tricky start with the dinner, the transport, getting there was issues. He was a bit flustered and it just, the mood was wrong. But I don't know, it's so hard. There's so much love there. I don't want to get it wrong. Back in the studio with me and a little deflated, Ellen is racking her brains on how to talk to her husband about their sex life.

17:01There's a lot of stigma that I feel like in his head. So how do I then take it out of that context where he has to kind of meet me there a little bit? You know what they say, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't always get it wet. He's saying, I'm so attracted to you and I'm saying I'm so attracted to you and we both agree that we should have more sex and then there's no practical step. You can get to having a really great sex life.

17:30but aren't you willing to do things differently? Sex therapist Georgia Grace says that couples who do successfully reignite their sex life are usually both ready to change. If they are willing to do things differently, I am hearing that both or all people involved are going to take responsibility. They are going to remove the armour of a, it's your job, you have to fix this. And instead they're going to come back to what could I do to take responsibility for this.

18:01Some people need a slower run-up to building arousal, starting with maybe a cute compliment in the morning and a caring and sexy text or two during the day. The touch, when it comes, may need to be slower and more gentle and work a little harder than what porn would have you believe. But all this is about taste and preference and every person is different. First, before everything, you have to want to know what your partner likes.

18:29Georgia says she can't be of help in therapy if one person in the couple has checked out. Sad that their sex life has come to what it is and they look at their partner and they think you've caused this pain in me I feel this pain because I'm in relation with you and so we want to hold that really gently and Even with the hurt how can they allow for new things to happen and so If they're willing, they're willing to see their partner and themselves in a new light. And that's very vulnerable. You just use a very sexy word there, which is probably the companion word to willingness. Curious. Keeping that curiosity alive sounds like a fundamental.

19:41Yeah, the best sexual partners are curious partners because a curious partner says, I don't know more about your body than you. I'm not going to get hung up on my performance anxiety or pressure and assume that I'm going to do everything you want every time. I'm curious about what you would want now. I'm curious about the stage of life you're in. I'm curious about my own body. And when we're curious, we're essentially moving away from the performance and the script. Because we haven't been taught how to be curious, we refer to this script that we've been given. The script Georgia is talking about is the sex script, a kind of blueprint for how the action, emotions and interaction goes during sex.

20:25For a lot of heteros, it's poorly interrogated, repetitive, and based on what they've learned from porn. Kiss, kiss, touch boobs, touch genitals, some mid-strength, low-quality oral, followed by a bit of rambam penetration. It's not so much that the content of the script is faulty, as the fact that it can and should change, fully informed by your own specific sexual needs and those of the person that you're doing the sex with.

20:50And throwing away a script allows for freedom, experimentation, listening and care. Once we've got a few of those skills, then maybe we'll bring in this curiosity, which is also why I think some people have the most of feeling sex when they're not in their 20s. There's this idea that your 20-year-olds are having the best sex and you can never have good sex, but that many people in their 70s and above are having really great sex because...

21:20They've learnt some skills and they're staying curious with how their body is changing and the kind of sex that they're having. There's hope. For all of us, yeah. I don't think he realises that I don't just want foreplay and then sex. Our stay at home mum Alice desperately wants her husband to inject some curiosity into their relationship and not just in bed. I want to be desired. I want to be felt like I'm loved.

21:50I want to feel like he's looking at me. He's thinking positive things about me. And, you know, not that he just wants to have sex with me, but he wants me. Alice has struggled with her body image since she was very young. I never felt sexy. I never felt desirable by another person, even if someone was very obviously flirting with me.

22:12I didn't realise they were flirting with me because who would want to flirt with me? I still feel that way about myself and I've told him that I feel that way about myself and he kind of said to me, I'm with you, like it's obvious I'm with you. He won't openly say that he is attracted to me and I won't openly say are you attracted to me because it's a very scary question for me to ask and scarier if he says the wrong answer.

22:44Recently, Alice asked her husband why he thinks they don't have sex. And he goes, oh, you're insecure about your body. It's been a long time. You know, you don't feel good about yourself. And I'm like, well, have you thought of trying to make me feel good about myself then? I go, sadly, I am one of these women who will need that for the rest of their life. Like, I'll need you to show that you desire me for the rest of your life because I won't just believe it.

23:09And he's like, do you remember what you look like at your wedding? Since her wedding, Alice got weight loss surgery and lost a significant amount of weight. And he's like, why do you think I would care now what you look like when that's how big you were then? So the feeling I'm getting is that maybe this isn't so much about couples that are in a sex rut as it is about husbands who are avoiding the issues at hand. When Alice clearly asked for more reassurance, she wasn't given any.

23:37In my head, I'm like, give him time to process it and see if just what I said to him makes his reactions different in the future, especially if he does want to. That's all I can really do is, you know, keep telling him what I need. Yeah. And hopefully he responds.

23:57Alice is hoping that talking about it out loud on this podcast will reset having sex as a priority. And hopefully, another day soon, she has a more fruitful chat with tired hubby. A week after our chat, Alice hadn't had a direct conversation about their sex lives yet, but she said she's noticed him trying a lot harder, making an effort and being kinder.

24:21In Ellen's ideal world, sex is a little slice of intimacy that she and her husband prioritise even in the chaos of their everyday lives. Ideally, it would be sex once or twice a week, I think. That would be twice a week. I think that would be amazing.

24:38So picturing what it looks like, maybe the kids are in bed, they're fast asleep, you've got a lock on your door, the kitchen's clean, the benches have been wiped down. Yeah. You guys go to your bedroom and then what what happens? And then they just get into bed, has cuddle, but then cuddling turns into kissing. And then that turns into, you know, like, I guess heavy petting and then into some sex, oral sex, followed by penitent sex, as long as we are connected and responding to each other's needs. Even if it's not even an orgasm, but if it's just like that intimate touching closeness, like just making out like, you know, that would be a step in the right direction because I think it just all brings in this extra intimacy and like says this way of blocking the world out, which I think

25:32you know, everyone sort of needs that a little bit in this world. And I think what you're describing brings an aliveness to yourself. Yeah, absolutely. That's right. So what do you think will happen next? Well, I'm sort of trying to take away from this experience as a bit of a motivator to have a proper conversation about this and try and move it forward in a way that is like positive for our relationship and everything because it just want to take the pressure out of it and just be us together. And it's so hard when there are like a million factors and a million things you're trying to juggle. And I do think that there's something about the art of compartmentalizing that you need to do a little bit. So I'm wondering how I can help him with that. I need to find out what's his take on it all because it's just become this one cone of silence in a very, very deep committed

26:29relationship. And I feel that there's that silence. It's like there's one taboo that we can't talk about and I hate that because I've talked to him about everything. Yeah. And this podcast is called Ladies We Need To Talk. Yeah. Well, we feel like you deserve what you want. So good luck. Thank you. Ladies, we need to talk about why so many women I know are hornier than their husbands.

26:59From speaking with Ellen and Alice and many people through other episodes of this podcast, not to mention people out in the real world, I understand that if you're dissatisfied with the amount of sex you're getting, you are one of many. Many ladies could stand to have more and better sex than they're currently getting. As sex therapist Georgia Grace says, for therapy to work, both parties must be invested in making change.

27:26And within that boundary, it absolutely IS possible to rekindle fires that died down long ago. This podcast was produced on the lands of the Gadigal, Moanina and Daruwal people. Ladies We Need Talk is mixed by Anne-Marie De Betancourt. It's produced by Elsa Silverstein and Sarah Mashman with additional production from Emma Morris. Our executive producer is Tamar Kranzwick. This series was created by Claudine Ryan.