Ladies, We Need To Talk - "I'm actually gay": My husband's best kept secret

0:00A killing in the night. Where's Simone? 20 years later, police still haven't solved the case. And I want to know why. Did you kill Simone Strowfield? No, never. If you like that one thing, you may like bad other things. Just because someone's lying doesn't make them a murderer. I'm Richard Baker. Join me to investigate lies in Lismore, the new season of Unravel. Search for Unravel on ABC Listen or wherever you get your podcasts.

0:30ABC Listen, podcasts, radio, news, music, and more. He didn't deny that it was there, but it was really more a case of like all straight guys look at gay porn. I never for a second thought this man doesn't like checks. He was able to identify, no, this is not just a face, this is who I am. I thought this was going to define me. And in a lot of ways it has shaped me, but it is certainly not who I am.

1:05Being gay was only decriminalised across all of Australia in 1997, when Tasmania finally reformed the last of their anti-homosexuality laws. So, while the law says OK to being gay, for many men from religious backgrounds, it's still not OK. Coming out can mean losing family, community and even your place in heaven.

1:29And as anyone who's spent time in men's sports will know, there is still a very active stigma and homophobia in non-religious community spaces. This episode is about the women who were married to those men. What happens when the person in your happily ever after is not who you thought they were, when your other half is actually gay? For the wives who built a life with a husband who is gay, is it possible to stay together?

1:58And if you decide to break up, how can you move on from the profound betrayal to find a state of peace? I'm Umi Steins, ladies. We need to talk about healing after your husband comes out. I had definitely grown up with that belief that you'd wait until marriage. I was the good girl. Ladies, meet Karen. She and her husband met in a youth church group. 22-year-old Karen and her fiance decided to wait until they were married to have sex.

2:38After a year of anticipation, she was so ready for her wedding night. It felt to me like that was something really, like, exciting and precious and something that you were, like, resisted until then, and then it was just like, you know, or hell can break loose in a good way, and it's going to be great. But as Karen slipped into bed with her new husband, he casually suggested that, meh, they leave sex for another night. I just was like, oh, okay. But I do remember...

3:06kind of like crying myself to sleep a little bit. Wow. Yeah. So you had all these expectations. You were quite hot for it. You're quite up for it. Oh yeah. And then he was like, I don't want to. Not now. Not now. Later. A few days into the honeymoon, Karen and her husband had sex for the first time. For Karen, it wasn't what she'd imagined. It was just awkward. It wasn't that sort of passion when you see all the movies and you just go, definitely wasn't that.

3:35And I guess honeymoon is one thing because you're inexperienced and you're learning to know each other. What was sex like throughout the marriage? It was something that we did, but not very often. And I mean, they're good times. It wasn't like terrible, terrible, but it wasn't great. It was never a strong suit for us. The first couple of years, particularly, I was really sad about it because I just really felt like he didn't want me. You know, when you sort of undress in that kind of way, like, oh, he'll look and he would look away. I internalised that I'm not that, you know, desirable. Over the years, Karen grew her family, ending up with four kids under the age of 10 and fully committing to her role. I was...

4:25fully into the mothering you know homeschooled my kids so like I poured myself into that and he poured himself into his work and his career and you know he adored the kids and he you know tried really hard but I think when someone's tormented with this anguish it's pretty hard to you know just be at ease in yourself and with your kids and yeah. Fast forward a few years Karen now mum to four loud energetic teens was home with her husband who was working on his laptop.

4:53He went outside for something and left his laptop open. As I walked past the laptop, something jumped out at me. You know when you like, I don't know, you hear your name in a room and your ears pick up. So I looked and opened on the computer was all these sort of like gay porn subscription stuff. And my heart sank. My gut was on the floor. I was just like, what is this?

5:15He didn't deny that it was there, but it was really more a case of like all straight guys look at gay porn. They all do it. You'd be surprised who does. Partners, when they come out to their spouses or their other partners, it's either through discovery or disclosure. And discovery is like when the partner finds something, right? Like texts or catches them or something like that.

5:39Ladies, this is Lauren. She's a Pennsylvania native and a counsellor who specializes in mixed-orientation relationships. So that's when two people are in a romantic and sexual relationship where there's sexual orientations don't quote-unquote match, right? So it's like a gay person and a straight person or a bisexual person and a gay person. Lauren's interest in mixed-orientation relationships is personal.

6:06Nine years into her marriage, her own husband came out. I always just felt like I had my teammate and my best friend with me and it was, yeah, it was amazing. Lauren met her husband Mark at uni. She was progressive and studying political science. Her boyfriend Mark came from a decidedly more buttoned up family.

6:29He comes from a small town outside of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Parents, pretty conservative, like dad's small town cop. Mom's a preschool teacher, very Catholic. He got a lot of like weird messaging growing up. Differences aside, early in their relationship, the sex was good. I was the first person Mark had had sex with. And so for him especially, it was like, yes, like let's fucking go, like all the time.

6:57And then when he did move in, it just started to become less and less of a priority. After they married, Lauren, who had a high-pressure job in politics, felt like maybe sex wasn't that important for either of them. I was like, this is what happens when you get married and you just stop having sex. That's just the story I had in my head. And so I didn't really think too much about it. But four years into their marriage, Lauren's belief in her rock-solid relationship got smashed to gravel.

7:30She and Mark had returned from a trip away and that night she picked up his iPad to continue reading a book. I just see this naked guy with the biggest cock I've ever seen before during her sense. You mean it was like it was like on fire and I like throw it and I was like, what the fuck is that? We just sort of look at each other in like a dead panic.

7:55And I just start screaming like, are you gay? What's going on? What is this? And he's like, no, I'm not. We haven't had sex in a really long time. And at that point, it had been like probably six or seven months. And he's like, I'm just trying to figure out my own thing, like what I'm attracted to, because I still feel attracted to you, but like there's nothing happening. So I was just like, maybe I'll just like kind of look into this. I mean, he looked me dead in my face. I was like, I'm not gay. Lauren was shook, but they'd been together for nine years at this point.

8:25She felt like she knew this man and knew that he loved her. He was in the military and so we were apart a lot in our marriage and like he was the one like when I would take him to the airport. There was a lot of like physical closeness and he'd be like, I just want to like melt into you. I never for a second thought this man doesn't like checks. Five years on from the iPad discovery, Lauren and Mark were on holiday to Disney World. And we had spent the day like hanging out, then we're laying there and he looks at me and he's like, my sexuality is fluid. The world just sort of stopped. You know, what does that mean? He's like, well, I think I like men and women. And so like that sort of kicked off like a long.

9:17for your progression of like disclosure after disclosure after disclosure. Yeah, right. So it's sort of like an unwrapping of the information gradually. It was like first my sexuality is fluid. He's like sitting on the couch. I'm standing in the kitchen and he was like, I have something to tell you. And at this point I'm like, what now? And he was like, well, I was really scared to tell you but I'm actually gay. He was just such a kind, gentle soul. He was hot.

9:48as well. This is Annie. Back in the 90s, as a fresh-faced 20-year-old, she made her future husband while working for the Salvation Army. Two years later, they married. So the wedding, we wanted to keep it low-key. So we had, like, a lovely wedding in a chapel at a property. Annie had abstained from sex before marriage, but once she said, I do, it was on. So that wedding night was the first night, I suppose, of sex.

10:17And then it was sex three times a day on the honeymoon. Yeah, it was game on. Yeah. After spending a lot of their early 20s attending church gatherings, both Annie and her husband got some distance from the dogma. They felt like they had to make up for a bit of that lost time. Weekends were very social, going out into the city, like, you know, drinking a lot more and having, you know, a bit of a party time and lots of laughs. And we love travelling. So we're always planning our next holiday.

10:46Over the next few years Annie had two sons but she and her husband kept adventuring with their two kids in tow. I wanted them to grow up seeing the big wide world and you know living our best life and exploring culture and giving my kids that exploration of the world that I didn't have at that age but I felt like we're always chasing something.

11:1320 years into their marriage, their intimacy had changed and their once hot sex life felt like a distant memory. It just wasn't happening as much. And I said, oh, we'd been together for nearly 20 years. I was thinking, is this just what happens? We're busy kids life. Right. And so during that time, you were still having sex, but it just it wasn't quite. No, it would be initiated by me. Yeah. My experience is that he obviously wasn't.

11:39um, reaching gratification. Oh wow, okay. Like, you know, like as in there was no even a rousal on his part. Annie assumed this was a symptom of a long and busy marriage. Her husband often travelled for work and she had her hands full with work and two teenagers. But after feeling unwell for some time, she went to the doctor. She did some swabs and tests and so I went back and my GP said, oh, you know, you've got chlamydia.

12:10And then I just said, oh, I need to ring my husband. Like I was gobsmacked. So I rang while I was in the rooms and I said, oh, have you been playing around? And he said, yes, but not with women. When you realized that you had chlamydia, how did you feel in your body in that moment? It was just disgusting.

12:37And I just, you know, in hindsight, I just think it's so irresponsible on his part. The next day, Annie confronted her husband in person. And he said, you know, I've been wanting to tell you for a while, but I just couldn't bring myself. It was the only way it was going to happen. I think of finding out it was going to go to shit. One of the things he also...

13:02told me during that time was like, I don't want to get divorced. I want to stay together. I want to have you as my family. So I was like, OK, that's what I want as well. This is Lauren, our American counselor again. So I'm going to do whatever it takes with whatever it takes with whomever it takes, I guess. And we're going to make this work. It was like very much in partnership with him. You mean like helping him sign up to apps and stuff? Yes, girl. Are you kidding?

13:32No, I still have the photos that I took of him. No, please. Stop it. Oh my God. You're very good if I do say so myself. Go ahead. Together they joined communities of mixed orientation couples to learn how to respectfully open a relationship. We were getting a lot of input on like how to have a poly relationship and I was like, okay, this has to be like so boundaries and have so many parameters because I am freaked the fuck out. Because for me, the non-monogamy part of it was way harder than the gay part of it, like way, way harder because I just felt like I wasn't special anymore. And that's something that my relationship with him really provided was this feeling of like being chosen and being special. With all the changes in her relationship, Lauren decided to go back to university in Chicago and study counselling. Her husband stayed behind in DC. He texted me one day in my

14:29final year of school and was like, we're getting divorced. Lauren was shattered. This wasn't what they'd agreed. He had met somebody whom he didn't introduce me to. He had moved that person into our shared home and did her post to him while we were still married. Then just a few months after we got divorced, they got married. Lauren says that she spent a lot of time sifting through the past, trying to understand what had happened. There's this concern about like Was I gaslit by this person that I loved and trusted? Or was I gaslighting myself? Right? And that's something that I grappled with for a long time because I was like, wait, did I miss something? You know, was it a red flag that he listened to Coldplay? I don't know. It's just all these things. So that's just like, did I do this to myself? I think for folks who aren't poly or who like get divorced or end their marriages pretty quickly after disclosure or discovery,

15:26there is that sort of like working through of like, I feel like dropped. And you're picking up the pieces and there's anxiety, there's, you know, there's depression. And then there's also, yeah, that feeling of like, can I trust myself? Not every closeted husband comes from a religious background, but Lauren says there have been studies in the US that link religious trauma and the suppression of sexual identity.

15:54So in the United States, it's pretty common for members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or the Mormons to promote mixed orientation relationships, to sort of like get the gay out of these guys. And that's where a lot of the research started. It's pretty common that there is some religious trauma, but it doesn't absolutely have to be. There is this expectation of like family being so critical to...

16:21the propagation of the religion and the propagation of your afterlife and things like that. Do you think it's more common in communities where being gay is not okay and homophobia is rampant for there to be husbands masking and kind of faking their whole lives? Yeah, absolutely. It's cultural, it's familial, right? It's religious. There's so much internalized homophobia, right? Like that we just get from existing in...

16:50are crappy culture sometimes that I think they're doing it to themselves. Lauren says that one of the hardest things for many women in this situation is the loss of their identity as a wife. That is so psychologically damaging, right? Like there's just there's so much. Yeah, just like identity. There's so much just about like who you are and how you understand the world that gets, you know, really, really ruptured within the self. And then.

17:19They have to take care of this man's children on top of it and make sure they're okay. Like, it's just so messy on top of something that's already so messy. He couldn't look at me. He couldn't be in the same room. He was so ashamed and angry at me that I'd looked. Mum Karen had found a subscription for Gay Porn on her husband's laptop. After confronting him about it, he told her that it was normal for straight guys to watch Gay Porn.

17:50It was confusing to me. It didn't really make sense. And we had quite a lot of discussion about it at the time, but it was all by email because he couldn't be with me. So I ended up sort of accommodating. I'm like, you can come home. It's OK. We'll work it out. You know, you don't have to hide from me. It's OK. So I really went into that reassuring. You're such a female thing to do, I think, you know. I think the word is appeasement. Appeasement, 100%. He returned home and they continued on as normal.

18:18Two years later, when they were discussing his identity again, her husband made a disclosure. It's just like, here's the spectrum, you know, like the old Kinsey scale sort of thing. And, you know, I know I thought maybe I was here, but I am 100% right here. And he pointed to gay. We were like five seconds away from moving from Newcastle to Melbourne. And he'd already resigned from his job. And I think we're just about to sign the lease when he told me.

18:45And I was just like, we will work it out. You know, maybe we can just grow old together as friends and soulmates. I was in denial and shock. Was he out publicly? No. And so you were keeping it a secret? Yep. Felt like a dark cave. You know, 24 years of marriage, nothing felt real anymore. I'm just like, wow, my wedding day that had been such a highlight of my life was now tainted. Did it feel like you were locked in his closet? Yes. And I didn't know how that...

19:12would ever change because he was so scared of the truth coming out. He so hated that part of himself that he couldn't bear the thought that anybody would know. And I wanted him to tell the kids. I wanted him to just come out like, you know, our marriage was dead in the water anyway realistically by this stage. And we were sort of really just cohabiting. And I thought at least if the truth comes out, I will have support, you know, we can somehow try and work through this.

19:4115 months after he told Karen he was gay, her husband came out to their teenagers and to their family and friends. Our closest friends came for dinner and he told them, I thought that was really brave and hard to do. He sort of got the words out and then said, I'm going to bed. And as soon as he left, they just looked at me and just gave me the biggest hug. And I'm just like, finally, finally. I just cried and cried. Yeah, it was really emotional. They were just so, so supportive.

20:09And they didn't hate on him, but they saw me. Karen was grateful for the support of their friends. But when her husband shared his sexual identity on social media, there was a less satisfying response. He announced that, you know, he'd always struggled with this and was finally admitting the truth about how hard it had been for him to keep this a secret and to have hidden this and how he was finally ready to come out and be brave.

20:39Out of everybody that read that post, only one person got in touch with me to say, oh my gosh, Karen, how are you? It was really painful. I was left feeling really invisible and overlooked. Like, I didn't have a story or a voice. I couldn't say this is awful. My life is really, really difficult because by doing that, it's like it seemed...

21:07defamatory this person who's coming out. I get it because everybody wants to be supportive of him but you're the collateral damage. Yeah, I feel used and I feel that collateral damage is really painful and I didn't sign up for this and if I had known I would have said no. But now that she was finally out of her husband's closet, Karen could take steps to create the life she wanted.

21:33Like Lauren, Karen went to uni to train as a therapist. I went from full-time mothering to full-time custody and full-time uni and poured myself into that and haven't looked back. To be honest, I've kind of like reinvented myself. Part of Karen's reinvention is working with people who've shared similar seismic cataclysms in their relationships.

21:57And I can sit with people going through that. And we've got that sort of instant rapport. I see you. I hear you. Now let me understand your version of this. Wow. Are there a lot of women whose husbands have come out as gay? Far too many. If it was on a bell curve, we'd be right in the peak because we're looking now at people who married when it was harder to come out. Let's be real. Like it definitely was harder back then. Yeah. But.

22:21Now that there's less homophobia, there's more people who are in their middle age and so on that are getting the courage to come out. And I think middle age does its own job of that as well. You have that existential crisis, you know, and so I think someone who's hidden this part of themselves gets to looking at the latter part of their life and going, huh, I don't know if I want to do this anymore. It's easier to come out and I'm sort of like, I've been hiding this and I deserve freedom. So they're more likely to come out now than they were before. What's your relationship like with him now?

22:49I would say friendly, but not friends particularly. You know, like we're amicable enough and... Is that you keeping your distance or the vibe just isn't there? I think initially, I kept a lot of distance and that was really protective for myself. I had to heal and, you know, having grown up in faith, there was a whole thing about forgiveness, you know, the F word I call it. It's about accepting that this happened and it sucked and it shouldn't have.

23:19I just think it's so irresponsible on his part. This is Annie, our mum who found out her husband was having sex with men after she contracted chlamydia. So there were no affairs of such, but I think he was obviously having hookups or, you know, exploring his sexuality. Annie works in the mental health sector, so after her husband's confession, she asked him to get some counselling. I said, you need to work out whether this is just a phase or whether you're gay or whether you're bi or, you know.

23:51And he did that when he was able to identify, no, this is not just a phase. This is who I am. The next step was to tell their two teenage boys. And we sat him down when he said, oh, I've got something to tell you. I'm gay. And so I sort of asked him a few questions. There was no kicking off or anything. And we just talked it through and said, look, this is what we're thinking as a family, you know.

24:17My eldest was doing year 12. So, you know, I'm gonna move downstairs But we're still gonna live in the same house So my eldest was sort of taking it in and my youngest said oh Who can I tell and we said oh you can tell anyone my kids really from the outside by all accounts Just rolled with it. Yeah, my boys have done really really well and as I've said from day one I just didn't want to screw their life up It was in other areas of their lives that they encountered resistance and straight-up homophobia. After her husband came out, she spoke to her pastor. I was in the main area of the communal church after the service and I just sort of went up to him. Like, I could barely talk. Like, I could only just squeeze out the words. So this is what's happening for me. You could tell he was angry with my ex-husband.

25:12and was wanting to be all protective. And it was all about family and the reunification of family and that he would come back and some of my ex-husband's family who are religious would pray. They were thinking that we need to stay together. They were trying to pray the gay away. Yes. Gosh. Famous last words. And you know what, Yumi? I actually found gay Christian community. That's where I found...

25:40I could process what was going on for me, you know, from mainstream faith-based places I wasn't getting, so I just really connected with gay Christians. Around three years after they separated, Annie, who has maintained an amicable relationship with her ex, was able to celebrate him. I went to his wedding with my now partner, and it was such a great party. Getting ready for the wedding, Annie sat in front of a mirror and took stock.

26:09After years of confusion, she was in a great place. I was just really happy. I had amazing sex with my current partner that morning. I felt strong and I felt empowered putting on lipstick because I felt sexy and I felt... I know who I am as a woman now, since my ex-husband coming out, which I would have never known. As a specific moment, I felt very empowered.

26:44This podcast was produced on the lands of the Gadigal, Moenina and Durawal people. Ladies, we need to talk is mixed by Anne-Marie De Betancourt. It's produced by Elsa Silberstein and Sarah Mashman. Our supervising producer is Emma Morris and our executive producer is Tamar Kranswick. This series was created by Claudine Ryan.