Ladies, We Need To Talk - The secrets to a happy relationship (they're not what you think)

0:00Joe Biocchi Peterson is the bogeyman of Australian history. He's the polio survivor turned peanut farmer who became a hillbilly dictator ruling Queensland for two decades. So how did Joe build his so-called police state? And when did it all come crumbling down? And why was he once voted the greatest Queenslander of all time? Tune in to The Dead Can't Sue to find out on ABC Listen or wherever you get your podcasts.

0:30ABC Listen, podcasts, radio, news, music and more. We can't believe we still have things to discuss after all these years. Real love is actually accepting your partner warts and all and trying to cultivate that fondness and affection for them. He's my best friend. I would prefer to hang out with him than anyone else.

1:00A common complaint of mine and many right-thinking ladies is that the fairy tale we've all been sold since birth tells us that then they lived happily ever after, but never really explains what happily ever after looks like nor how much work is required to keep that happiness happening. And while it's fun and cathartic to talk about relationship disasters and marriages that end up in carnage and court cases, What about the couples who still actually like each other? Who survive kids, careers, money stress, years of annoying habits and still choose each other? What are happy couples doing behind closed doors? How do they fight, divide the load and keep intimacy alive when life gets busy and deeply unsexy?

1:59I'm Umi Stein's ladies. We need to talk about the secret lives of happy couples. Whenever we had, like, a bad or a rough time in our life, like, he was there for me and I was there for him, we were just each other's best friends for so long. Meet Sarah. She's 35 and lives in Melbourne with her partner and toddler with another baby on the way. Her love story goes right back to when Sarah was 15.

2:40We were in a friend group in high school, and we just kind of lacked the look of each other, and that was that. So it was friendship or romance? When we look back now as adults, we kind of think maybe it was more of a friendship. We really just liked hanging out and laughing together and things like that. So we kind of stuck it out for as long as we could. Yeah, and then what happened with your breakup? So when we were 18, we kind of finished school, and we were both like...

3:08I think we've got bigger fish to fry. We've got some growing to do. We just went our separate ways. Okay, but you didn't disappear from each other's lives? No, we didn't. So we stayed friends for a decade. We hung out all the time. We would catch up with each other after we'd been on dates and they'd gone really badly or we'd just go out to ramen together and have the best time.

3:34During those 10 years of being best friends, aside from one drunken romp at a mutual mate's 21st birthday, they thought they'd just be best friends forever, until one day in their late 20s, Jim said that he was leaving. He was moving overseas and I said, oh my god, don't go. I'm in love with you. You can't go. And he was like, oh, I'm going to go still. So I followed him.

4:03to Indonesia and Vietnam. Sarah did this for about five months but it was getting a bit ridiculous following Jim around Asia when they weren't even official. Then in an apartment in Tokyo she finally gave him an ultimatum. I said to him listen mate you know my life is in Melbourne I've used up all my annual leave and my money chasing you you know if you're not into this it's time to call it and he was like I'm not done traveling. And I was like, okay, well, you know, this is, this was fun while it lasted. And I came back home to Melbourne and then he came home two days later. Wow. And was it weird going so long as platonic friends back to like tactile touchy feely friends? Yeah, it took us a little bit of time. So when it came to being in a relationship with someone who you've spent kind of a decade not touching.

4:59We had to figure out what we were both comfortable with and what we were both kind of expecting. And we just had to find the right groove. Because part of the thing with a partner, like a sexy partner is the mystery. Yeah. And that's exactly that. There was none. We knew everything about each other. So being best friends with your partner, what does that look like on a day to day basis? Just a lot of laughing. Just so much laughter. It's so...

5:29easy and fun. And I can't believe how mundane tasks that we do together are still funny and cute. We can't believe we still have things to discuss after all these years. We wanted to hear from you, our lovely listeners, about what you think are the secret ingredients to a happy relationship. And you delivered. As well as being a really great team and partnership. I think the special thing is always having our own little silly, cute moments, just having the little bum tap, the little silly names, we call each other. I think that's what keeps it fun and silly and light. We call each other boyfriend and girlfriend, even though we're married. Secret to my happy long-term relationship is definitely mutual respect, 50-50 all the way. And I think lots of laughter, good conversation, definitely.

6:24not to care and also the odd, nerdy swim. Always pretty good. We'll come back to your successful relationship secrets later, but now I want you to meet Gemma Cribb. She's a clinical psychologist who works with couples and with single people on the hunt for stable and healthy love.

6:44People who are happy and maintain that happiness in the long term, it basically boils down to a really good friendship. And there've been a lot of studies and a lot of research put into this, so they've actually been able to define the sorts of behaviours that create that really good friendship. Keeping in touch with each other's internal world, actually asking each other ongoing questions, not just how was your day, but what's going on for you that I need to know about.

7:13Okay, so I like that idea and I think I've got a clear picture of that. It's knowing how they're doing with the details sort of filled in. You bet. Yeah. And it's up to date and they keep in touch so it's a regular check-in type of process.

7:30Another of the behaviors that they talk about are fondness and admiration. So making a conscientious effort to appreciate what your partner brings to your life, not just focusing on the negative and there's always going to be negatives, but looking for how they add value and how they make your life easier and feeding that back to them. Okay.

7:51And the third thing that creates that sense of friendship and warmth and good connection is turning towards each other. So it's being responsive on a daily basis. When Gemma says responsive, she's not talking about responding by shouting at your partner when they haven't picked up their wet towels. She means being open and responsive to their needs. For instance, they arrive home looking stressed and drained.

8:22You put your phone down and ask, do you want a bowl of soup or should we go for a walk? Just tuning in and putting your attention on them. Or maybe even, should we go into the bedroom to get your mind off your worries? And while we're on the subject of sex, Gemma says to have solid ground for the grunt and grind, there's one simple key ingredient. Good sex is a product of a good friendship.

8:51So if you're warm towards each other, if you care about each other and you feel safe enough because of all that to ask for what you need or to talk about what's happening for you sexually. What do couples who have an active sex life over a long period of time have in common? Do you think they schedule it? They schedule it. Yeah. Stop it. I know it's very boring, but it's true. The only way to really prioritize something is to schedule it.

9:19Can I also say you don't have to be having loads of sex to have a happy relationship. It totally depends on what you and your partner actually want. Gemma says there are loads of factors that are overrated when it comes to how we think about what makes a relationship successful. And right at the top of that list? Anything related to the spark or chemistry?

9:46So you're looking for attraction that's that slow burn attraction, that gentle build, because that sort of attraction is based on a genuine sense of this person's character. So choosing based on looks, choosing based on shed sense of humour, even choosing based on shed likes in terms of hobbies is not a great way to choose a partner because all those things change over time. What?

10:13Okay, I get the hot thing like I think attraction is really important, but hotness might not last But humor and shared interests. I'm really surprised about that because that would be really high on my criteria Yeah, so if you're looking for the long term, we're actually looking for character traits. So humor is great but when you have a really close friend there's a warmth and appreciation the humour comes out of that friendship you don't have to have someone who's super funny from the get-go and that's a bit like attraction too and just help me understand about shared interests a bit more because I thought that would be very foundational yeah well you know if you both like golf great but people's interests change over time so if you connect

11:00purely over your shared interests of yachting and somebody gets a permanent injury, which means they can no longer yacht. We want to have something else underneath that that keeps that connection and keeps that friendship alive. While I put my yachts away, I want you to meet Amanda. She's 43, a photographer in Canberra and a mum of two. 25 years ago, she was at university in America and she had firm ideas about her dream guy.

11:31In my 18-year-old brain, I was like, oh, well, I play the bass, and he would play the guitar, and then we'd make a band together and be super cute. Then, when she was 19, Amanda met the man who would become her husband. What I dreamed of was not this guy. He just kind of hung out with the crazy kids who were just always doing dumb things that seemed funny. And so I was like, oh, I want to be friends with them. If we went to the movies in a group, we would sit next to each other. And if we were sitting...

12:00eating breakfast or lunch in the cafeteria. Our knees would touch under the table. And then very quickly, we were just kind of going out together. Well, it sounds like quite like a movie romance, you know, set on campus. Yeah. And we were both really good looking, like all of those things. OK. And it sounds like your relationship was based on friendship first. Yeah. Oh, 100%. There's that word again, friendship.

12:28We didn't set out to make an episode about it, but being good mates with your partner is crucial. Funny because they never mention friendship in fairy tales. He's my best friend. I would prefer to hang out with him than anyone else. If people ask me to go out, it's really hard to say yes because I'd prefer to stay home with him because I know I'm just going to have a really nice time. Amanda has been with her husband for 23 years and...

12:57It's still fun. He has like a super dry sense of humour. I love being in public spaces with him because he'll just kind of lean over and whisper funny things in my ear. And he's really smart. He reads a lot. He has a lot of empathy and compassion for people, especially growing up with the upbringing I'd had. I was like, this is right. This is wrong. That's it. And Caleb kind of taught me how to see the world in grey and seeing things from other people's point of views.

13:26But this lovely goofy bookish man wasn't who Amanda expected she'd end up with. She'd always been in bands and was very social while he was the complete opposite. She wanted to go out, he wanted to stay home and it became a problem in the relationship. There were all these kind of things that as a young person that I thought I wanted in a husband and Caleb did not match up to that at all. I kind of always imagined someone who would kind of like match me as far as like being maybe not extroverted but just someone who was social and had a lot of friends. Okay, so there's a few opposites going on. Yeah, yeah. 100% I would definitely be frustrated with him for not wanting to go to social events or when he was at a social event he would just kind of like make other people uncomfortable by not engaging.

14:21But Amanda had a plan. She was going to fix him, make him into a social being and the two of them would go to parties, anecdote at maximum volume and swing off chandeliers like a pair of bonded baboons. You might not be surprised that this approach did not work. And it wasn't until I inside of myself was just like, I'm just going to love Caleb no matter what and have his back and If he never changes, that is totally fine. And when I accepted him utterly and completely for every bit of him, including his introvertedness, that was when I think he felt totally supported and he was able to start to change. I didn't expect that to be an outcome.

15:12Yeah, what you're describing Amanda is radical acceptance and that's what we need from our friends, that's what we need from our parents and what we need from our lovers I think. Yeah. Real love is actually accepting your partner warts and all. This is clinical psychologist Gemma Krübergain. She says when you look at the evidence people are happier when they can step back and let their partners fully be themselves.

15:39When they did all this research on healthy couples, they found the best couples had no change agendas for the repetitive issues in the relationship. Is that right? You bet. So most couples argue about money, sex, time, mess and kids and most of those arguments will never get resolved because it's just based on who you are as a person. Someone's messy, someone's not as messy, someone's always late, someone's always on time.

16:06And so healthy couples still talk about those sort of friction points, but they do so with humour and affection, not with a change agenda. What about when our partners do change on their own terms, as we all do? How do we adapt to their changes and stay connected as we both continue to grow?

16:29So really healthy partners make each other's life dreams come true and when change happens they acknowledge it openly and how it's affecting them rather than put it under the rug or be resentful of it. There's a sense of support and openness. What do you personally think are some of the secrets that the happy couples we've spoken to do either unknowingly or very intentionally?

16:59The secrets are actually about intentionality and consciousness to maintain that relationship. So rather than going home and just watching television all evening, they make rituals where they connect. So when you say rituals, I just say incense. I say candles. I say chanting. Things like I've got one couple where he brings her a cup of tea in bed every morning. All right. And they spend that three to five minutes just being together, talking about what they've got on their day. It's been that way since they got together and it's a really lovely little moment of connection that they find for each other that helps them start the day. And I guess what I see in that imagining that the couple where the cup of tea is brought is they're not looking at their phones. They're really...

17:53observing and locking in with each other. You bet. It's the attention on your partner and they want to just spend that quality time with each other, even if it's just for three minutes. As a counsellor, do you hear the teething a lot? It's not any more common than other sorts of rituals, but there is a theory called PACT that talks about attachment behaviours that appropriate times and one of the best times for attachment behaviours is when you wake up in the morning. It's when we're waking up to the world where most vulnerable, most people's kids come into bed with them when they're young. As soon as they wake up, it's this implicit need to connect at that time of the day. I love all that because it does sound very intentional. Just trying to view what the flip side looks like. Do you think there's a tendency with some couples to get married and they think that's it?

18:53Like you've sealed the deal. You've done no more effort required. I also think that that's what we're sold via Hollywood, right? Nobody sees what happens after the I do's. You know, we're all about the spark and the passion and the finding that one person that just feels like, you know, the best thing since sliced bread, but we don't actually get taught the skills of how to keep.

19:18that interest and that connection alive and I would say it requires as much work as anything else in your life that you want to maintain for the long term. So knowing we should give our partners the same sort of attention we give our gardens and our gym routines and God forbid our jobs, let's go back to our wise listeners. Just like Gemma prescribes, Hailey and her partner make the effort to stay connected. They put in the maintenance work. We're pretty much together 24 hours a day, seven days a week. So that leaves us with a lot of time to find a moment here and there to sneak a bit of sex in and enjoy each other. So yeah, when the kids are at school and kindy during the day, we'll just find a bit of time to have a bit of fun. And then when they go to bed, if we're still up,

20:15listening to music, we'll just have a bit of fun in the back room, you know, when they're absent. And Perule has some advice on how different approaches to parenting can be an asset in a relationship.

20:27My parenting style is a little bit more involved, a little bit more dominating. I need to know where my kids are, why they're not calling up, why they are XYZ. And my husband is, I love them their spaces, let them grow on their own. If they make mistake, they'll come back for advice. So he's got a very different parenting style. You make a good team with your husband and sky's the limit. There's also some wisdom from Lisa who has been married for 45 years. I think the biggest thing for us now is we're just kind to each other. We know our little idiosyncrasies and needs and considerate of that. I'm not a morning person and my husband is and I start my day every day with a cup of tea in bed which he kindly brings me and then we have little chats and it's very lovely.

21:20Amanda, our loved-up mum of two from Canberra, came up with this little trick to carve out some quality time with her husband in the evenings. We put the kids to bed really early. Good idea. At 7.30 we shut the door and then they have to go to their rooms and they listen to like books on tape or read or do Lego or something and then they'll fall asleep. And then Caleb and I can hang out together and spend time together. What does the time together look like? Oh, like TV.

21:49TV's great. Yeah, approve. Yeah, we're both like really pretty boring. Like those people who they like exciting travel and they go on hikes and stuff together. We're not those people. When they're not watching TV together, Amanda and her husband Caleb are extremely communicative about sharing the load at home. And when something isn't working, they try to deal with it straight away. Like when Amanda realised that she was doing way more of the family's medical admin, And thanks to an episode of this podcast, she explained the whole concept of the mental load to Caleb. And he was frustrated at the time when we were having a heated conversation. But he listened and he then took her to the doctor the next time. Caleb's a man of action. A lot of the time he won't say something, but then the next time he will make the effort to show me that he's listened.

22:48by changing? That's incredible. I know, it means a lot. Happy couples aren't without problems or disagreements, but they are safe places for each person to say what's working and what's not. Like recently, when Caleb told Amanda that he wanted a bit more affection, I would describe myself as kind of like a high fiver and like, you know, being a mum, you've always got kids on you who are hugging you and stuff. And so I feel like Since we've had kids, Caleb has been neglected sometimes, but he communicated to me recently. He's just like, you, like I need you to hug me sometimes. It really meant a lot that he was able to articulate that. So recently I'm just trying to like be more affectionate.

23:36Yeah, okay. And that level of communication to say what you want in a vulnerable way. Yeah, yeah. I think we really trust each other because we know that we love each other, no matter what. We've really learnt to be vulnerable with each other, but also like it takes work to be vulnerable. Like there's times where I'm like, I do not want to tell him this and I force myself to tell him because I know it will be better for our relationship. I think communication is The biggest thing in a relationship, and I know that's like a very boring thing to say when it comes to sex or just our emotions and stuff. So I think we talk about it a lot. You've said the word boring quite a few times. Now I'm wondering if we should be aiming for boring. What is good about being boring? This is really nice. I feel like our relationship is really comfortable.

24:34I think the thing with me accepting the fact that we're kind of vanilla and that we're boring, we're not looking for something new and exciting. We're really looking at investing in what we already have. So my parents always used to kiss each other goodbye. This is Sarah in Melbourne again talking about her folks who were obviously pretty good relationship role models because Sarah's carried this little ritual into her own relationship with Jim. It doesn't matter how chaotic the situation is always kiss each other goodbye and now our son will say dad kiss mum. Give us a little reminder which is really helpful but also just little things like the end of the day when the baby's gone to bed I will always lie my head on Jim's lap and he will just comb my hair and we'll just sit together and watch crap TV you know like we always just come back together at the end of the day.

25:33The thing about happily ever after is that no one gets through life without some humbling knocks, some disappointments and some pain. When they first started trying to have kids, Sarah had two miscarriages. We just sat in it for a little while and then we spoke about it and we talked about how weirdly it was such a legitimate thing to go through together, you know? It's such a... We were really together.

26:03in that time. We were really on the same wavelength. Yeah, because it's interesting you said it, because a lot of people who go through something like that, they split apart and process it separately. And what you're saying is that you didn't do that? No, we just, I mean, as we always had, we just talked, you know, you'd be like some days you were like, do you know what, I'm really sad or you know what, I'm kind of a little bit relieved because I was scared to be pregnant. You know, we just...

26:32Every feeling that came up, we just voiced it and we just got through it together. So you feel like you turned towards each other? Hugely. Yeah. Big time. When she fell pregnant with their son, Sarah says she was nervous about how a baby would change their lives. But again, like the evolved couple that they are, they talked about it. We made sure that we could communicate clearly and openly and we also made sure that the labour division was already split before we had our son. So we set up everything first and then when we had our son we kind of had everything in place. And we also wrote on our whiteboard on the back of the front door, we still love each other, we're just tired. These two cuties still divvy up their mental load now.

27:25from swapping cooking duties to organising doctor's appointments and taking it in turns for kids' bedtime. But my absolute fave, if one of them goes out on a big night, they get the next morning off parenting! What?! These two are ticking pretty much every box Gemma talked about, although there is one element that is a little trickier than the others. It's finding time to be intimate. It's pretty hard.

27:54We have just had to manage our expectations a little bit. Our son is two years old and we're both exhausted. So we just do what we can when we're both on the same page. Okay. So just doing what we can mean not having to follow a script or certain expectations? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's just what we both feel we're comfortable with if we both have enough energy.

28:20There's no pressure. There's no expectations. It's whatever we're both comfortable with. They might need to take Gemma's advice and get some sex on the whiteboard and in the shared calendar. Sarah says she often has to censor herself when she talks about Jim because she doesn't want to sound like a total wanker going on about just how happy they are. It's kind of cool, isn't it? To bitch about your partner. Look, I don't know why that is but I was walking with a friend the other day and she said to me, you know, I just, I just went on the best holiday with my husband and I really feel like I can tell you this, you know. And I was like, what do you mean? And she was like, because you have a good partner too. She's like, you can't say that to everyone because not everyone has a good partner. So sometimes I do find when people are complaining about their partners, I have to almost not lie, but just

29:12I like things about Jim that annoy me so I can join in the conversation. Even if Sarah does have a whinge about Jim, what really stands out to me is how much she respects the person he is, the way he cares for their son and the way he cares for her too. He's unbelievably emotionally intelligent. He...

29:36can understand and perceive and predict people so well. He's such a good judge of character. He will notice things about people and adapt himself to make sure they're as comfortable as possible. And I love that. I love that about him. That's a really deep empathy. Yeah. Do you feel like he really knows you and what's happening in your day to day? It's almost embarrassing.

30:04He will be like, do you know what? You just need to sit down and watch some Gilmore girls. Very specific. Yeah. He's like, let me just, just get you on the couch and you just relax and I'll help you through this. You know, like he can almost predict when I need help before I do. You've said your love most about him is his empathy and his emotional intelligence. What does he love most about you?

30:33I'm trying to guess my titties. Yeah, that sounds just like him, you've got him. I really don't know. I think he thinks that I'm just very cute and fun and kind. And I think that he probably would have some other words, but.

31:04I think we just... He just loves me. OK, what I've learned here is that the secret to a happy and long-lasting relationship is finding the right person and locking that shit right down. Stay away from shiny, crazy fireworks and celebrate kindness and consistency instead. Those things might not sound super sexy, but they pay off in the long run.

31:30And if you do find someone who actually wants to be friends and actually wants to match your efforts at partnership, it's about tuning in to who they are and how their and your needs evolve over time. It's about caring, sharing and letting go of any change agenda. Oh, and scheduling sex and whiteboards and nudie swims and yachts. Lots of yachts.

32:04This podcast was produced on the lands of the Gadigal, Muinina and Durawal people. Ladies, we need to talk is mixed by Anne-Marie De Bettencore. It's produced by Elsa Silberstein and Sarah Mashman. Our supervising producer is Emma Morris and our executive producer is Tamar Kranswick. This series was created by Claudine Ryan.