Ladies, We Need To Talk - _I_m always going to be the mistress_ Dating a married man

0:00Jacinta Bowlerone of the most ambitious projects in human history. It's almost like the atomic bomb in terms of its transformational effect. For decades, the breakthrough has been just around the corner. That would bring our financial markets and electronic commerce to a grinding halt. Will quantum computers change everything? I'm Jacinta Bola. Search for science fiction, Dead and Alive on ABC Listen, or wherever you get your podcasts.

0:32Speaker 6podcasts, radio, news, music and more. It was like an out-of-body experience. I couldn't control it, but at the same time I will cry. Sometimes I feel like the worst person in the world. It just happened and then it was impossible to not have. It feels really good to be pursued, to be wanted, to be wanted in a situation that is usually considered forbidden. I take the good of what this relationship brings me.

1:05Speaker 4as far as I can take it. And I choose to make the best of it. People may think that being in this situation is, you know, you are this seductress and you are this person that is enjoying and just having sex and all of that. And in fact, it's actually horrible. Temptress, home wrecker, mistress, bit on the side, side girl, side hoe, floozy.

1:38Yumi StynesIn popular culture, there are lots of ways of naming the other woman and none of them are particularly kind. Who is she? Why is she there? And why doesn't she go and find her own guy instead of trying to steal someone else's? The other woman is the one who isn't the official partner. She's the extra one, with superpowers that make all wedding rings invisible to her own eyes.

2:08Yumi StynesShe comes in with her heaving cleavage and ruby-red lips to lure men away and run wrecking balls through all those three-bedroom semi-detached townhouses with off-strict parking... But what if the other woman was just a human? One who fell for a guy, hook, line, sinker and wedding ring? Maybe she knew it wasn't the right thing to do, but like a prize barramundi, she was caught.

2:40Yumi StynesDoes she deserve empathy and understanding rather than outrage? Is it possible that she's just like us? She loves and hurts and falls for people. Sometimes the imperfect, perfect match. I'm Ui Steins, ladies. We need to talk about being the other woman. I feel alive. I feel happy. I feel complete.

3:28Yumi StynesDenise's love story didn't start in a fairy tale way. Girl meets boy, girl gets boy and they live happily ever after. Denise's guy was already taken and he had kids. She met her prince around four years ago. At the time I was in a relationship, I had a husband of 17 years. When Denise met this guy, let's call him Tom. Denise's marriage was coming to an end and Tom was there for her.

3:58Speaker 4We just grew really close and he will ask me about how I was feeling, about the divorce and if I needed help with anything. He was always very friendly, very supportive and we started to find things in common. Not long after they connected, Denise left on an overseas holiday and during that time the two were in constant contact. On my six-week long trip we talk every day.

4:28Yumi StynesTwice a day, I will share pictures about my trip, places that he's never been. How did it feel, Denise, knowing that he was partnered with kids and yet you're falling in love? In my previous relationship, I was cheated on and it felt devastating. So I was always very conscious of what I was doing was wrong.

4:55Yumi StynesYou know, when you're in a situation like this and you meet someone that you have such a strong connection like that, it was like an out-of-body experience. I couldn't control it. Those feelings that had started to develop between Denise and Tom back home, heated up during those daily phone calls when she was overseas. One day before I came back, we were talking on FaceTime. I was wearing my pajamas and we ended up having phone sex. What was that like?

5:25Speaker 4Even for sex with him was incredible. Oh my God, the connection, everything he said and everything I said. I didn't even know who this person I became. So brave and so sexy. Oh my God, it was... That sounds really good. Yeah, it was... But I was also thinking, oh my God, what am I going to do? I can possibly be this person. After talking on the phone every day for six weeks,

5:53Yumi StynesBut not to mention the phone sex. There was a lot of built-up tension by the time Denise arrived home and met up in person with Tom. I hug him and I kiss him. And I kind of say, it's probably the best kiss I ever had. Maybe make me feel 16 again. What is the sex like between you? It is the best sex I ever had. It's so empowering. How do you feel when you're with him?

6:22Speaker 6I feel complete. I know it sounds stupid. I just feel like a part of me was missing and he completed it. He woke me. I feel like a superwoman and I feel... I make him feel the same. It feels really good to be pursued, to be wanted, to be wanted in a situation that is usually considered forbidden. I want you to meet Liz Neal.

6:52Yumi StynesShe's a psychologist who's worked with many couples trying to sort through infidelity. In her practice, she sees firsthand what it's like to be the other woman from all sides of the triptych. When any relationship begins, there are a whole range of...

7:10Yumi Styneshormones that are increased and released and the feel-good stuff, you know, dopamine, serotonin. And we kind of see relationships go through three stages. And the first stage is limerence, where it is marked by an increase of these hormones. If you don't know what limerence is, it's basically the desire to be desired, the all-consuming thoughts of another, the I'll simply die if I can't have them feeling.

7:38Yumi StynesIt tends to come on hard and fast at the beginning of a new relationship. It's intense, it can be addictive and it can make people make choices they otherwise might not. You can have a very intelligent, grounded...

7:55Yumi Stynesperson but this is the thing with hormones and this kind of thing is that people do things and make these choices that seem really inconsistent with logic and what we would usually ethically do because of the impact and effect that this feeling has on us. When you're the other woman waiting for your secret partner to contact you it can be excruciating and then when they do exhilarating

8:24Speaker 6It's what researchers call partial reinforcement and it keeps the woman on the hook. Holding us there and making us want to come back, it's actually how gambling and poker machines work. It's sometimes you get it, sometimes you don't. It makes you want to stay there waiting for more.

8:43Yumi StynesDrugs. Yeah, absolutely. You could absolutely look at this in terms of the brain chemistry involved, very, very similar to what happens with all kinds of different drugs. The thing that I wanted to ask you was because it's taboo, because it's forbidden, you're seeing each other less, one assumes, because he's got this whole other life to maintain. Does that sort of draw out the limerence period? Absolutely. Because you're not having to yet get into commitment mode.

9:12Speaker 6And so that's right, especially when it is a known infidelity, then... there isn't yet these expectations, these milestones. And because what happens at the end of limerence, the question is, can I trust you? Are you there for me? So in a relationship that begins in a standard sense, we go through all of that stuff. And then we feel disappointed or let down by a person and we start to realise, oh, these rose-coloured glasses come off and you're just a standard human being with your flaws and faults.

9:44Yumi StynesBeing the other woman in a relationship is like orbiting around the person you're in love with, but you are a lone satellite and they're interconnected with all these other planets. Your cobbledom doesn't exist beyond the bubble that you've created for yourselves, and it's one where there are promises made that can't be kept.

10:06Speaker 6the couple in this new relationship and this infidelity having these moments with, you know, although there's good hormones, the amphetamine high, people say stuff that they don't mean. People say stuff that is far more generous or exaggerated of intention than is actually really going on. Like, for instance, I can't wait to watch the sunset in Santorini with you. Yes, exactly. If you extrapolate, that sounds very, that sounds like an invitation and a promise, but actually maybe it's just words.

10:34Yumi StynesWell, that's right. And it functions for the moment. It functions to enjoy this moment. But then reality is that it is probably quite prohibitive or difficult. And in the end, it might have just been a fantasy. Being the other woman can mean being the shiny, bright new thing in comparison to the ongoing partner, the one who is there day to day, the one who is nagging about picking up the socks or unpacking the dishwasher. Often these relationships begin

11:04Speaker 6with a promise that a married person will end the relationship because they're unhappy. And often this new relationship bonds and strengthens and forms very much through the comparison between the two women, their partner.

11:24Speaker 6is painted to be this sort of person that is unappealing. It gives this woman in this new relationship a role, a role of better, good for the ego, but it gives the impression that there's an inevitable end or decline or deterioration in the marriage. And because of that, It's almost like there's this process of deterioration going on over there. An implied sense of growth and development with an end goal and a rosy, happy sunset moment on the other side. I want to introduce you to Jess. She met the man that she's involved with online seven years ago. Let's call him Dick. The beginning, his story was that he was separated from his girlfriend.

12:16Yumi Stynesand that he has a child. Dick told Jess that he was still trying to figure out how to co-parent his kid with his ex, and that for the time being, they were still living together, but were not a couple anymore. Hmm, that was a red flag for Jess. And I thought, OK, you've been separated one year, but you're still living together. So it doesn't sound much like a real separation.

12:43Yumi StynesThere were times he told me that he would be home with the kid and that he would not call me because of the ex-girlfriend. In the beginning, Dick had always had a reason as to why he had to stay at home with his ex, but that he was looking for a way out. While her brain was concerned that Dick's story didn't add up, Jess's heart was sending her different messages.

13:12Yumi StynesHe was incredibly attracted to me, which made me feel beautiful and confident. And so it felt very freeing to have that. In a story as old as time, a few months after meeting him, Jess's guy told her he was going to try and make things work with the mother of his kid and that they couldn't see each other anymore. By this stage, Jess had fallen hard. I was devastated.

13:41Speaker 7So for me, that was a big loss. I know it wasn't long that I met him, but he had me to the core really. After calling it off, Jess didn't say Dick again for two years. He was always in the back of my mind. I think I was always a little bit in the back of his mind. And then he started contacting me again. So you got drawn back in, Jess. I got drawn but right back in.

14:10Yumi StynesVery easily. Yes. Jess and Dick started seeing each other again. This time she knew from the start he was going home to another woman. But there was something that Jess had no idea about until around a year after they reconnected. He got married and he had a kid on the way. Wow, with the same girlfriend. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was a big blow for me. He basically put and on any future hope of a relationship between us. Jess knows that she'll always be in the background rather than the co-star in the movie of Dick's life, but she'd rather have a part than nothing at all. I choose to make the best of it because I know the alternative is leaving him and missing him.

15:09Speaker 7And that is right now just not an option for me. Jess, what's in it for you? I get some really good parts of him when he is there and the parts that I need in a man. For now it is sufficient and I decided to instead of making myself horribly upset by leaving him and putting an end to this, to just take the good.

15:38Speaker 7Do you imagine that that's what he's like when he's with his wife and his children? I know that he loves her in his way and he loves his children and he's trying to be as present as possible when he's with them. Does she have a sense that you exist? I don't think so. He really erases everything from his phone.

16:06Speaker 7Whenever he's home, he blocks me. He raises all messages or call logs. He leaves his phone open so she can use it. And he doesn't talk about me to anyone, not even his friends or his best friend. How long has it been now? It's been seven years now. It feels like you're one of those precious dolls that's kept in a box and you don't get to come out and play except when he's...

16:35Yumi Stynesavailable and then the rest of the time you're sort of put away. In his mind, yeah. But not yours? I don't feel that because I have a life outside of him. Over time, Jess has learned to carry on with her life when she's not with Dick rather than live in a state of suspended animation. She understands that her own children that she once dreamt of won't happen. It doesn't matter. Her heart belongs to him. It's a deep love.

17:07Yumi StynesIt's a deep, rooted love. It's unconditional. It's totally unconditional. If he wasn't there, I would still love him. I want you to meet Joy. Joy first met the man she had an affair with. Let's call this bloke, Harry, when they were teenage lovers. They broke up and married other people, but their paths would cross as the years went by. Then one day, Harry sent Joy a Facebook message for her 50th birthday, and they started chatting on the phone.

17:42Yumi StynesWe just talked and we talked and we talked and we talked and we laughed and we cried and and all of this went on for months At this point both Joy and Harry were still married with kids, but not satisfied Harry suggested that they meet up for lunch Then we went for a bit of a drive and and then we pulled over just to chat some more before he was going back to his hotel and And we just kissed in the car and made out in the car and that was the beginning. How old were you at that time, Joy? I was 50. 50 years old. So we'd known each other for more than 30 years. Making out in the car. Yeah. Sounds hot. In the daytime. Wow. Was it hot like it sounds? In the summer. Yeah it was. When you were together, Joy, how did that feel? It was always amazing. It was just because it was so comfortable and I felt heard.

18:41Yumi StynesThis was by far and away the best sex I've had in my life ever and to this day. What made it so good? It was creative. It was caring. It was honest. It was open. It was fun. It was experimental. I don't think I'd ever had an orgasm in sex before him. The kind of sex Joy was having with her husband was very different and very perfunctory.

19:13Yumi Styneswas like tap on the shoulder, rub on the boot, over and done in three or four minutes. There was no particular enjoyment for me. And by the time we got to the end of our marriage, if we had sex, I would usually go to sleep with tears running down my face. Oh, no. Why? Because it just felt nothing, just felt like using. After that first in-car-pash sesh, Joy and Harry's feelings for each other intensified.

19:42Yumi StynesThey were in constant online contact, planning hookups and waiting for those precious moments until they could sneak away and be together. It was blissfully happy for about three years, and then the real guilt started to kick in. A few years into seeing each other, Joy and her husband split up. She and Harry talked about a future together. It could have been real. He talked about getting married. He certainly talked about moving in together.

20:13Yumi StynesHarry talked the talk, but when it came down to actually separating from his wife, he got cold feet. He was afraid he wouldn't be able to see his kids anymore. In the end, he couldn't do it. He couldn't leave? No. He was too scared. Joy and Harry saw each other for a decade. For a big chunk of that time, it was clear to Joy that he was never going to leave his wife and that they could never be open with their love for each other.

20:43Yumi StynesThe burden of being the other woman weighed her down. I hate being a dirty little secret and I hate lying to my family and I hate lying to my kids. How does that shame feel? It feels like a big weight in in the pit of my stomach. I just feel like I carry around this big darkness down there. For something that brought so much joy to have to keep to secret it was just awful and to know that I was lying to every single person that I knew all of the time was awful too. And it goes against every single value I hold dear. It seems like the emotions that you're carrying around are partly because you had to go against your own moral code. Yeah.

21:49Yumi StynesAbsolutely. So you've got sort of this idea of who you are. I'm this person who's ethical. I am morally upright. I don't do shoplifting. I don't do environmental pollution. And I don't sleep with married men. Yep. 100% me. So what is it? Do you think that made it OK for you to go there? What were the sort of stepping stones of decision making? I don't think there was a stepping stone. It just happened. And then it was impossible to not have.

22:22Speaker 5After 10 years of being the other woman, Joy called it off no more. It's been two years but the heartache is still raw. The number of times I've driven my car balling my eyes out and I should have just pulled over and stopped and or you watch a movie or a TV series that has this sort of stuff in it and you just go.

22:50Yumi StynesYeah, because when you break up with somebody, usually you can tell your friends and you can commiserate with your children if they're old enough and you can get a lot of support even from work. And in this situation it was like you're doing it all by myself, almost closeted. So you cry in bed, you cry in the shower, you cry in the car, cry in the car. And yet still today, you know, if I go out with anybody else, I compare them to him. Nobody kisses like him.

23:22Yumi StynesIt doesn't feel the same. So that's led to a lot of short-term relationships, which is not much fun either. Remember Denise, who had the hot phone sex with Tom while she was overseas and then the hot sex sex with him when she got back home? Around two years into the affair, Tom's partner found out after seeing a message on his phone. I gotta say that I feel terribly for her.

23:55Yumi StynesNo one deserves that, especially I know how that feels. It's a feeling of betrayal and it gets to your self-esteem and it's very hard to recover from it after that. Tom was kicked out of the family home and for Denise, the days following their exposure were torture. She didn't know if she would see Tom again. I don't deserve sympathy from people but...

24:22Speaker 4It was quite terrible because I thought I lost him forever. He was never really mine, but the little bit that he gave me, it was mine and I thought I lost him. After the dust settled, Tom went back home. He says it's to be with his kids until he can find somewhere else. In the meantime, Denise is hanging on. He says, as soon as I'm in my own place, We can be together. Things are going to change. Obviously, we might need to be a little bit mindful of everyone's feelings and especially hers. Do you believe him when he says he's going to move out? I don't know. I wouldn't before, but I don't know if he's strong enough to do it. How do you manage these mixed emotions that you're having?

25:22Speaker 4Oh, I had to get a therapist. I had to. I was driving myself crazy. It's been a limbo for me. They're not knowing if I'm, you know, if I'm gonna be alone or it's like knowing you are gonna get a leg cut off, right? If someone's gonna cut off your leg. Cut it now. Don't keep me here waiting. You know, it's cruel for you to, you know, tell me I'm going to, but not just yet. Just tell me if you're gonna be with me or not.

25:52Speaker 4Now that the secret's out, the guilt has only gotten worse for Denise. This is, I think the worst love story someone can write. It's deceiving. It's a bunch of lies and betrayal to people. And I know we might not deserve a happy ending for what we did if we do get to be together.

26:19Yumi StynesA lot of people is going to be against our relationship and I'm very aware of that. And I'm always going to be the mistress and the person that broke the family. And that's something that I need to live with. It sounds like you're a bit tormented by your choices and you feel like you deserve to be punished. I've interviewed a lot of people for this podcast and I've never heard anybody say I don't deserve a happy ending.

26:47Speaker 4Well, why would I I broke up family? I think it's hard. I didn't want to do this. I didn't grow up as a little girl Wishing I met a committed man. I wish I met him You know and we will have our own story. We will have our own children I don't have children on my own and now I wish it was different, but it's not and I just couldn't help for Falling in love with him, I love him very deeply and I could risk to say he's the love of my life. And I know that's messed up and I am strong, but that's how I feel. And I risked everything for him. So I just hope it was worth it. And if it wasn't, at least I know I give him all my love. When a tragedy strikes, you see families on TV saying, oh, you never think it can happen to you, but it can.

27:52Yumi StynesMaybe that's what it's like to be the other woman. For every Tom, Dick or Harry out there, there are women with big hearts and love to give. They're prize barramundi and they're hooked. And the thing is that we've discovered in this episode is that the love is often reciprocated just in secret. For Denise, Jess and Joy, they definitely deserve our empathy.

28:17Yumi StynesNot every relationship fits the mould, not every romantic situation is pure black and white. If this is you, ladies, we see you.