The Daily - Sylvester Stallone Hid His Struggles for Decades. Now He’s Coming Clean.

0:00I live on regrets. I can make a castle out of regrets. I'm Lula Garcia Navarro and today I'm interviewing Sylvester Stallone. At 80 years old, the star of Rocky is telling his own, against all odds, story in a new memoir, The Steps, an allusion to one of Rocky's most iconic scenes. In the book, Stallone details an abusive and tortured childhood and how that fueled his success in some of Hollywood's most well-known franchises. What became clear in our conversation is that behind that tough guy exterior he became famous for, there were deep struggles with his emotions, his body, and his family. It's a Sylvester Stallone you've never seen before. But first,

1:03A quick message. If you're not a subscriber, we have some news for you. You can now explore the Times for free without paywalls during your first month in the New York Times app. Just download the app and we hope you enjoy it. Okay, now on to the interview. It has been 50 years. It's hard to believe, I'm sure. Since the movie that started it all, Rocky came out. You're now 80 years old, which I'm sure is also hard to believe. It is. You know, In reading this memoir, one of the things that struck me is that some of these memories are quite painful for you. And you wrote in the book that at difficult moments in your life, you told yourself to quote, put those memories away in a box and avoid them. Just move forward. What was it like to go back and revisit some of these things for this book? It was a mixed emotion. There used to be some tears. There used to be some laughter. There'd be some anger, bitterness.

2:03and then I thought you know maybe in one way that was the motivation to do something extraordinary as opposed to you know just being very languid and no I had a nice relationship growing up but I have no angst inside of me that fuel so I've always been on that cusp like I punched you in the mouth, but did he do you a favor? Because now you go to the gym and you become a tough guy. Those things, I truly believe that the parents are the mold maker. They're sculptors. They don't realize it, but they're sculptors. They're rodents and they're sculpting their masterpiece or their disaster. Yeah, I want to start actually at the very beginning because

2:52You came into the world in many ways how you have inhabited it which is Well, you know with a lot of turmoil a lot of drama It was a rough entry. Can you tell me about the day you were born? Well, it was my mother really I she also came from a lot of turmoil and She really wasn't mother material and she had grandiose plans for her life. So my her pregnancy with me was a big time interruption. And I don't think she wanted to really believe it was happening even though it was in the ninth month and she was finally on a bus and she goes into labor and she said, I want to have it here. It was bad. And then we just happened to be near a medical center. You might call it like a charity ward. It's like, there weren't even doctors there. We're just mainly interns and one doctor. And that's my...

3:49That's my first breath on earth. Yeah. I mean here in New York City. It was a bus. It was a bus right here and the people who Delivered you used forceps and they partially paralyzed your face, right? It could have been worse because sometimes you could bring damage from it. Maybe that happened too. I don't know but it was a terrible thing growing up because I slurred and I mumbled it was like 10 times worse than ragging. It was it was rough. Did you see yourself?

4:19back then as having a disability when you were young? I mean... Yeah, it was. You're not aware of it. Even if you have a list for a stutter, you're so familiar with it. But other people, you know, what? What? Jesus. Say anything. What language is that? Oh, God. You know, in the book, you seem to suggest that both your parents saw your arrival as having ruined their ambitions in some way.

4:50You wrote, can you really make people proud who never wanted you in the first place? And when you were very little, you were sent to go live in a boarding house. I mean, you were very little. Yeah. And your parents only visited you once a month. I've got to say, this is, by modern standards, pretty extreme stuff. And you know, it's very clear that when you were young, you never got the love, you never got the support that most Children need. I mean, how did you understand that as a kid? How did it make you feel? I don't know if there was some perfect preventative thing of some Blockage of being kind of completely abandoned or forlorn or whatever I just Was raised by strangers, you know in a boarding house and it became sort of a natural environment And my parents really were never nurturing. So this was actually a bonus

5:50compared to where I was living. I think if you are emotionally deprived when you're younger, you learn to lock things away, which is why I started with that quote about you locking things away. Do you think it made you, like, tough? In the wrong way, yeah. It made me very tough. And I literally haven't figured out real, real, real, real, real true love until, you know, like 70. It really was, you know, because you have different income.

6:20incarnations of love, you think this is it or this or that, but to really have unequivocally true love and I love my wife and my kids, I mean, that total abandonment, that reckless love that you would jump into a volcano for them, that came late. And that's a big pity, it really is, because I was so consumed with not being another bum from the neighborhood. I was very, very competitive, like a pit bull.

6:48Like, it's just, that's what got me going. It's not healthy. And I would have conversation with my wife and my brother or anyone at the time about why I was so competitive. It really was, it was, but then again. Made you who you are. And you've had quite a life. Your parents had this very hostile and violent marriage in many ways.

7:15and they divorced when you were about 11 years old? Is that right? Yeah, 10 and a half, 11 years old. Yeah. I mean, what do you remember about that separation and how did they decide to split you and your brother up? It was traumatic. I'm not sure about how my brother reacted, but when she goes, I'm leaving. I won't be living here anymore. And I go, where are you going? Because I'm going to live somewhere else. I'm moving out. I remember holding onto her leg.

7:45Like being literally dragged. Oh, yeah, it was like, you know what I mean? Like hey mom come back and this way you guys were all living together Yeah, I pulled the leg away out the door and that was it and my brother came home a little bit after that and There was nobody there, you know I guess my father took me to the shop or something So he was abandoned and he never got over that ever That scene I'm so I'm so sorry. I just want to linger on it of just you holding it was rough It was I'm telling your mother's things where your legs buckle you drop down you grab around like the like a leg try to tackle her What was going on? I don't know because she never was a loving person. I know I'm not alone in this that there's a connection at birth that some people have that so

8:41Popable that no matter what you cannot break away from this ability or need to have this person's attention It's like electric and then being deprived and put into the dark. It's a it's a terrible It's a hundred percent true. You can never, you know, get rid of the connection to your parents So is that blood thicker than water I used to make you know I used to say no, it's just stickier, but it is thicker I mean there's something there that that is quite, I mean, painful, really it is. You go to Maryland and you end up living with your dad. He loved horses, he played polo, but what was it like living alone with your dad? Because we've talked a little bit about your mom, but that didn't sound like a great time either. It would be, I guess, these constant

9:40bombastic explosions and then total silence because if he were talking and then he said, you know, I don't know if I agree with that. He starts spinning his fork and suck his teeth and you knew what was coming. The next thing you know, wham, he had very big hands. You just learned to duck a little bit, but there are sometimes I'll never forget. God, I don't know.

10:10poor sly, but all right. No, I didn't put a lot of stuff in the book because I didn't want a pity party, but it was insane. For example, it's church. Before we go to church, go to the store, which is a block way by some bread. Okay, I go down there. I see a couple of my friends who I got to get back and I bring home sandwich spread, not bread. And he kicked me in the stomach.

10:40and he hit me, like, laid me out, got in the car and went to church. I'm there in the street, tie, like, this kind of thing, with mayonnaise. Really, it's unbelievable. It's unbelievable. Did you ever fight back? This is gonna sound very, I guess, Greek tragedy kind of thing. Like, when I was, say, 40, 344, and he was 25 years older than me. He goes, yeah, you know, you're doing this, you're doing that. Is there anything left in your life that you'd like to do? I said, I wish you and I could be the same age, three minutes. And he goes, wow, I said, because I'd like to give you some of your own medicine. And you would know what it'd be like to have your ass kicked, he goes.

11:40Takes off his jacket. You guys don't wait. Let's bring it on right now. This is on Sunset Boulevard pull the car over So this You don't have to wait Wait, come on. He was ready to go at you know, 68 years old. Hmm That's when people go. Where do you get the um ferocity to play ramburger? genetic I mean Your dad was not only abusive, but he was competitive with you. Oh, yeah. I mean, he often tried to one-up you, sort of humiliate you. You talk about what you just discussed, you know, him beating you up in front of church, but also, you know, you became a very good polo player and at a polo match in front of everyone, he dragged you off the horse and beat you up in front of everyone. Why do you think he was that way with you? I don't know.

12:39You never asked him later? I don't know. You know, you keep, well, his father was like, his father was a very stoic barber or the mustache, and you know, they say like a fly sitting on a ton of cow shit thinks himself a king. So he was like, yeah, same the king of the street. And so he had this sort of imperiousness. And I think he was cold as hell.

13:07So my father was very very cold and tough for example There was a cat Just making noise outside the house. He went inside and we're not got the cat. Come on. You took it into the laundry room shot it and left it in the wash tub Now I think he did that to impress me like holy great You'll never be as tough as your old man, and I won't there is no chance That's a whole other leak. It's funny though. You keep on using the word tough. Yeah, and I don't hear tough. I hear messed up, you know, you're right because I'm using tough as a masculine banner for something much more perverse and weird and dark dark Oh, yeah, yeah With all that drama and all that violence was there any love between you two? Did you feel any love? Only on his deathbed. That's about it

14:06I never, you know, it's so weird. My mother never, and my brother, well, it's us, hugged me ever, ever. There was never like, oh, hold you to the breast, kind of thing. Kissing, forget it. Like, nothing. It was always an air thing. And my father wasn't, well, he wasn't any better at all, but I'll never forget. We were, that was maybe nine years old.

14:35He would always have me like take care of his horses feed his horse, but never ride the horses. And so we were coming back from the barn. He's driving and Kind of fell asleep. So he put my head on his knee and his hand on my head and never That was that was the epitome like I went Wow, that's what it feels like. Oh, you know what I mean? Wow Like, you know, just a simple stroking of your child's hair. But that was it. It was one and done. So much so that you remember it. One and done. You know, you went to many different schools during this period. They did. And one of the ones that you talk about is for kids that needed discipline. You got sent to sort of reform school, it sounds like. Devereux. Yeah. And you talk about...

15:40Being put in a psych ward And I have to tell you that this was One of the most chilling things that I have read. Can you tell me that story and and yes, why you included it? You know as an adult I saw one from the cuckoo's nest and it looks like a bunch of like Kind of eccentric old guys. They're having a good you know, I mean no At this school, there were five different departments for different ages. And in my age would be like the teenagers, if you ever snuck out to see a girl or do something like that, you'd be reprimanded by taking to a place called Park Lodge or the Snake Pit, which on the outside looked like a Tudor type big old Tudor home from the 20s.

16:38And then you walked inside and you now entered the heart of insanity, the smell, the filth, people running around naked and clawing hands tied, drooling. And this is what they thought would impress you never to break the rules again. And then they marched me, and I mean, they're clawing. And this is called the lifers.

17:05where these people, there was no going home ever. Everyone had straps that would be tied down at night. The windows were covered with bars or grills and they took me to a cell and it was a padded cell and I'll never forget it was that high. So you could never get off your knees. And inside I'd look up right here and you'd have this these elements like dust constantly falling down you see the real it's been clawed at and clawed at by the predecessors of this particular dungeon and clawed at. And they left you how long? I was there for like a couple weeks it was it was wild but this to me was one of the better things that happened too. I said I know they're going to try to break me

18:03I was attacked there. I was trying to rip my groin off. It was bad. What do you mean tried to break your groin? Like they assaulted you? Yeah, Jay Bird. He was a... Actually, he was the son of an actor named Lloyd Nolan. And he was put in there. He's big, had no hair, always naked, the serotonin. Because, you know, I never brushed his teeth. And he made sounds. And they called him Jay Bird because he's always naked as a Jay Bird.

18:32And I go into the bathroom on the way to food mess hall, which is really just a bunch of troughs. And I'm there, and he comes in, this fucking smelly bear comes around me, and he's like ripping on my throat, and he's going into my pants, and he's grabbing my groin. And I luckily, you know, got around to do this stuff on the face, and then the two guards come in and beating the crap out of him with razor straps.

19:03And I go, so I go, what the hell's wrong with him? You're in a crazy house, boy. Nothing's wrong with him. He's crazy. That kind of thing. And I went, wow. So let me just get to the point I won't be labored anymore. I felt when I came out of there, and I was standing before the school president, I mean the principal, you guys, you learned your lesson? I got to learn a lot more than that lesson.

19:32much better lesson. You can't break me. You can't break me. So when I got to the city and everything that came after that, I always felt I was unbreakable in that, in that way. My heart could be broken, all that kind of stuff, like every human being, but I'm talking about will. Hmm. You end up showing up here in New York City in your twenties. Yeah. And.

20:02You have dropped out of college at this point. You have backpacked around Europe and you have no money and you Have a dream though that you want to become an actor and you take a job as an usher at a movie theater. Yeah, and I have to say this was so interesting because What comes through is what an obsessive you became you start writing down dialogue from your favorite films What were you trying to do there? What was I was really trying to learn I said, you know I'm non-existent. I put on this monkey suit and people don't even see you. But you're in really a temple of wisdom and cinema. You can see what the audience reacts to, where they laugh, they don't, who gets up, why do they get up? You listen to them talk about the film and every day was different. And then I started to record it, write it down. And I lived literally in a...

20:56It was almost like a cell. It was a very tiny, maybe eight by nine foot room. So I'd sit on my bed. That's all we had. And I'd have these old record albums of traffic and blood sweat and tears. And that was my desk. And I would just translate notes and notes and notes. And sometimes I go, ooh, what if this is it, son? You're sitting in the middle of a bed like a fool, doing something that sounds so stupid to anyone else. What are you just...

21:26postponing the inevitable, then that fear would come. It's like the thing in the psych work. I'm not gonna be, no, don't go there. Take the fear, swallow it, move on. Yeah, I mean, you had an apartment where there were blacked out windows where you would write scripts for days on end. I mean, it's just this absolutely kind of manic intensity.

21:58And in this period you were also getting into altercations, you were living rough, but you were also spending your days not only writing but going to MoMA. All the time. And you had this deep appreciation for art. How did you understand these two sides of yourself? I don't know. It just seems like if you're open, really open, to different experiences, I just go on by this place and I look in there and for some reason I go, wow, the energy of the art.

22:26and you're looking at léger and all these incredible drawings and monies and starry nights. I'm like, well, what makes them so special? I could do that. Then I go, no, you can't. Look at it closer. Look at it closer. And it just started to invigorate me. And then I developed this unbelievable thirst for art, which is to this very day. And I started to paint.

22:50And I went there so many times I didn't pay anymore. I just knew everybody like, come on in, get out of the cold. It's almost as if you're going to the church of the brain. You're the most wisdom in the world. It's right here. And if you're walking around like a fog, what are we going to do with my life? Go in there!

23:11You might find something that will give you, that will spark an interest that gets you going in that direction because you're going in that direction. Do you wrote in the book, at my core there is the simmering cauldron of emotion that can overflow with volatility, but it can also be directed towards deep artistic purpose. And I was thinking about that, those two sides of you, the, I'm gonna.

23:35You hit you if you hit me but I'm also gonna go to MoMA and I'm also gonna sit there and and pray at the Cathedral of Cinema I mean do you think you ever learned how to control that cauldron? It's very very explosive. I mean I'll tell you the truth when Sometimes in certain moments in like in cinema even as an adult I'm going like at the end of first blood is a big nervous breakdown And I wasn't written that way. You know, I hadn't written it that way, but then it came out. I said this is coming from that cauldron and it's a self indignation of being run down, dismissed. That's the way I felt. That was the worst thing you could say to me. The worst. You call me ugly, call me this, call me short, call me stupid. Because that is what my father used to say. And literally,

24:30it would turn me into a maniac to prove I'm not stupid. And I would just work and work and work. For example, this morning, I'm 80 years old. I'm up at five in the morning studying my dialogue that I don't have to do for a month. That kind of thing. You know, it's funny that you mentioned that scene in Rambo, which is just an iconic scene. I was just watching it again yesterday. Oh really? Yeah.

24:59You are just filled with rage and grief, and it just translates viscerally onto the screen. It wasn't written that way, though. You just were tapping into that cauldron? Yeah.

25:29I, you know, I thought, I started, it was, the way it was written is I'm supposed to commit suicide in a very cool manner. I couldn't wait a minute. There's thousands and thousands of men missing parts of their bodies that literally actually thought they were doing something worthwhile. They were following the rules and orders of their country. Then when they come back, they looked at as aberrations, Frankensteins, monsters.

25:57Then I start to identify, that's what I felt like growing up, kind of a thing. And it's kind of rage that they must feel that it's not their parents, it's their country that is scoring them. They're real parents. The ones that they literally lost blood and friends and died for and were mutilated. And they go, you can't say, nice try. Thank you, nothing. So this kind of, and I really identified with this dismissive attitude.

26:25that I grew up with all the time. And boy, when I look at that footage, I look distorted. I mean, it was the eyes. I mean, I was gone for a few seconds. And you're lucky enough, sometimes in acting or painting or writing or anything, where you just subliminally lose yourself. You do not know where you are.

26:54You know, if people say, oh, maybe it happens in sex for a few seconds where you're literally blanked out. What was that? You know, kind of a thing was when you have that moment in acting where is it over? Was it one take or was it one take? Wow. Um, just to just to come back to this period that you were in your apartment with the blacked out windows and you're trying to make it as an actor, you get a lot of rejections because of the way you look. And you write Rocky for yourself. And the studios are very excited for the script. And it's well known the story that the studio ended up trying to pay you more and more money not to be in the film. They wanted James Kahn, they wanted Ryan O'Neill, but they give it to you because you hold out again because you had this sense that this was like your last chance? This was it. I was done.

27:52I had less than 100 bucks, 106 bucks in the bank, and there was something, and I don't know if it's spiritual, but I said, God, man, I know in my heart that I will regret this for the rest of my life, and I will be more of a broken man than if I had never done this in the first place. And I don't know why I knew, because I had no success. I was green, really green.

28:22And they had every right not to want to use me. If someone came into me and did the same thing and looked like me and slurred and all that, I go, come on, man. You're not acceptable to a lot of different people in this country. But I don't know why. I just knew that this is the crossroad. This is the breach. And if you don't cross it, man, then jump off it.

28:52Because I'm not going to have someone else do it. Because I know I hate myself. I'd kill myself. I really wouldn't be emotionally that is. No, I get it. I get it. Can I ask you just about this thing that happened during Rocky? This is your big break. Yeah. You have sacrificed everything for it. They give you the part. Yeah. You're nobody. This is everything's writing on the movie.

29:16And you cast your dad as the timekeeper who rings the bell in the climactic boxing match. I mean, this is what the whole movie is going towards. And you bring in someone with whom you've had this incredibly difficult relationship. And it turned into a mess. I mean, why did you let him back in? I just want you to love me for a little bit. A little bit. Like, look what I did. Share it with me.

29:49I know you thought I was a fool my whole life, but here we are this is not a joke and He didn't ring the bell properly and I kept fighting and fighting and fighting, you know and everything's choreographed. It's a one two three four bell Not six seven eight nine ten. So Carl was like what's going on? Like you're throwing punches and you're trying to add lip and then it looks really fake, you know I could ring the bell, you know, whoever yelled at me and it became like, I said, oh, God, a really bad Italian trauma. And of course it ended up in an altercation by the end of the round, you know, you got really nasty. But for a moment, I thought, Jesus, he'd be proud. And later you end up inviting your mom to the Oscars for Rocky. So then you call her up and you say,

30:46Hey, this film might win an Oscar for it. Who's in it? And she blows you off. Can I ask you about your mom specifically? Because as we've discussed here, she was difficult. This is putting it lightly. You're quite scathing about her in the book. And then in the 1990s, she becomes like a celebrity psychic. I'm Jackie Stallone.

31:13Psychic Astrologer to the Stars. I have predicted fame and fortune from movie stars and celebrities all over the world. And I just wondered, to jump a little later into your life and your relationship with your parents, how did you manage the dynamics when, you know, she sees proximity to your fame as a financial opportunity? I mean, that must have been a hard dynamic to manage. It was very, very hard. It was very hard because...

31:42She had been married three more times. And then I saw her posing as a psychic with a turban and rhinestones and this over inflated sense of like buffoonery. Or she would go on a Howard Stern and mock my father and call him like terrible things and then they'd get on the phone and I had my father and mother fighting on Howard Stern.

32:10What other guy has to go through this? Yeah, this was 1992. They had this horrible on-air argument. But you two produced a movie star. Let's say you guys did produce a movie star. No help from him. Any guy could have done the job in three seconds. He didn't even want Sylvester. He tried to get me to have an abortion. Really? It's unbelievable. Why would you go on humiliating yourself? Well, you're humiliating me. My children, stop. I'll pay you anything to do whatever you want.

32:36the finest restaurants, anything. Just live your life and just try to be proud of yourself. Why aren't you proud of me? I went, there it is. I'll never forget. I asked, I said, have you ever done anything wrong? I mean, do you have any regrets against? No, why? I live on regrets. I can make a castle out of regrets. I mean, when people say I have no regrets, I go bullshit. Come on.

33:06really that perfect everything was just right and That's just the way it was to the day. She died and the last effort at the Oscars I thought Ten months earlier. I was basically homeless Now we're with incredible competition And you don't want to go see here's here is I'll put it in that show. She never wanted to be alone with me ever And she didn't go then she stuck to her guns And it really hurt me hard. I won't, I see, I won't go there anymore. You know, that kind of, but it does affect you. My wife, I know it's hard to get over it. It's very nagging. It's a nagging scar that won't fully close. And every now and then it weeps. But again, that's your cross to bear. Maybe that's why you had this certain sort of,

34:05selective rage. Did you go to therapy later in your life? No. I said it's not going to help. It's just not going to help because it doesn't go away. You cover all this subterfuge and, you know, ideology and intellectual this and that and, you know, breathing and meditation until that moment later tonight and you're right back and now you're in an anxiety.

34:35Do you ever have anxiety? Oh, yeah. All that anxiety everyone has, it's coming from something that is so deep rooted. Tell me about when you first suffered anxiety. It was the first time I did it when I was 36. And I was watching dailies. And then all of a sudden I stood up and my, the hair on my neck went up. I started getting hot. I go, I'm dying. This is it. I'm on my way out hard. Banged down, I went, took a knee.

35:05Crawled rolled over and then now when it's dark like movie theater And then it you know it happened again and again and again they went away for five years And then it always seems to happen like as you're ready to go on the today's show Oh boom eight seconds and you feel it coming on now You got anybody got a Xanax? That was too late. So you're just sitting there holding a chair going, I go, I feel for it. I mean, it's not a joke, you know, anxiety. It's like, no. I think people would find it very heartening that you have experienced that. Oh my God. Especially as I got older and it was weird when I'm in a crowd, I'd be with my wife at an ARC.

36:02and the room is filling up, it's getting more and more and more. And then I go, I'm going, I'm going down. And she goes, let's get out of here. And literally, I just make it to the alley, boom, get down on one knee. Then again, I was at the mayor's office in Philadelphia, receiving some award, and everyone sort of crowded me in the corner. I said, I have to go, thank you very much. And I just made it out of there. And I go, hmm.

36:30What is that indicative of? I've never bothered you before, so there's something still bubbling inside, festering. It's like, it's a marvel, for example, that we still have magma and lava four billion years later in the center of the Earth. How long does it take to cool an egg? I mean, my God. So the same thing, our emotions are always on the verge of eruption. Despite having such a...

37:02I don't even know the word anymore, upsetting, upbringing. You've become a father of five. What did you learn about being a good parent considering you didn't really at all have role models for that? I really wasn't a very good parent. My wife, Jennifer, is the greatest woman ever before. I mean, seriously, she's just like my guardian angel. I would have been dead like three times for real.

37:32And she just is the most giving. I don't have that gear of just abandonment of your own personal self for someone else. It's really unbelievable. And she raised my daughters that way. And my first marriage, it wasn't like that. And I was in my warrior mode. I was like, oh, this conquered world. You know, this is your moment. And everything fell by the wayside.

38:01It was just a measly manner of existence, it really was. It was, reality was the movie set. The surreal world was my life. I have no control out here. I'm out, everyone's back in call, I don't like it. I couldn't wait to work again. Terrible to say that, but it's true.

38:32You suffered an unimaginable loss in 2012 when your eldest son sage died He had an undiagnosed heart condition that killed him when he was only 36 and I just want to say I'm so sorry Thank you. I imagine that must have profoundly changed you. Oh You know The thing is, you know, you have so many Episodes of guilt like what could I have done should I've been there if I did that if I went right or left?

39:05I had no idea that, I mean, it was stunning. Like, I'll never forget. It was so cold. My mother's new husband, I never met with a doctor. I get a phone call Friday the 13th. You guys, Sly, Stephen, yeah. He's gone. Who's gone? You guys, Sage, he's gone. And what gone where? He's died, he's gone.

39:38I'm sorry, click. I said, is this possible? That's how you found out? That's how, yeah, that's how. He's gone, he's gone, dead, sorry. And it wasn't, you know, it goes to the funeral. It goes to all the, again, you know, dealing with the mother, dealing with your life in the present. And it's all, I mean, it just takes you into a whole other.

40:07world. I'll never forget. I go, well, I'm holding it together. When's it going to happen? You know, when and then about a week later, I was all alone in my room and a whale came out of me. I've never heard before since it was just such pain and grief and guilt. And it was just, it was not human.

40:41It really wasn't. But all I can say is that she was a very kind kid. He had a great mother, a nice, you know, we would have done wonderful things in the future. I just had no idea that he had something that you would expect in a very advanced adult to have. But now you don't get over that. I'm sorry. Back to Rocky. Back to Rocky.

41:26It got 10 Oscar nominations. It ended up winning Best Picture. And it's not just the film but you end up capturing the public's imagination because it was this fairy tale story. And I'm very interested in you looking back at this transition from becoming a struggling actor to suddenly becoming the hottest star in Hollywood because in the book, there is this picture of you, which is very poignant. And the caption reads, my last day of being anonymous. And I thought, what an interesting thing to put in a book that you can delineate that moment, you know, where you could walk the streets and no one would know Sylvester Stallone. And then after that was never going to be the case again.

42:29It was a tsunami. The movie started at 12 noon and at 2, people started coming. They saw me and it was a deluge of being completely obscure for 30 years about just walking through being a non-entity to now being this celebrity and someone who was tapped into their hearts.

42:57And more than just a movie, like, hey, that was a great action film. It was like, that's my story, that's just a set. And I went, oh my God. And I could hear the applause. There was applause in a movie theater. It was like an event. And I'm looking at my brother and he goes, oh, you're in for it now, pal. And it really was just overnight. It was just overnight. I don't know if...

43:26It's never happened again. Obviously. It's just one of it's the rarest combination of obscurity to fame in a matter of two hours. That's documented Whoa, did you look at fame as? something in the same way as the psych ward and and let me let me under let me try to explain what I mean, which is this isn't going to change me or did you look at it as? This is everything I'd ever wanted Hmm Well, I don't know if it changed me, but it's a lot of breaks some people it well it didn't break me what it did it it made me combative it made me very I told you so revenge was playful and All the rejection everything else it was

44:23I mean, oh my God, it was so insufferable. I really was. Even with the New York Times, I was like, oh, Madame Boverti, anyone could write that. It was just, I don't know, I mean, I became a petulant child. I really did. And years later, I mean, I despise myself. I'm surprised I'm still here. I managed to alienate.

44:50the entire press, everybody did. And people that believed in me and so on, I just was not, I was just not humble. There was no humility whatsoever. Again, it's just childhood eruptions coming to the surface at the most inopportune times. I want to talk about some of the people you worked with and came across in the 80s. And of course, we're going to start with Arnold Schwarzenegger, who you're now friends with, we should say.

45:20But he was a huge action star back then. And you've said you couldn't stand to be in the same room. No. I mean, why did you hate him so much? What was it that like, take me back before the friendship? Because he was a challenge. I thought I had something going on and then I could see this guy, this immovable force, a very confident human being. I think even more so than me and more psychological in the way he would manipulate and do things very cunningly.

45:50And not in a negative way, but just shrewdly. He's a smart guy. When I was blunt for us, he would macabrelly and cool. And I went, God damn it. And he's winning these awards, and he's a bodybuilder. And I'm like, I consider myself somewhat more of a, you know. A thespian. A thespian, a dramaturg, you know that kind of thing. A peripatetic dramaturg just wandering their country acting. And I went, wow.

46:15This, this is, I'm gonna, this is my guy. This is the guy I know I'm gonna trouble with. Period. And sure enough, we did. We were just going at each other, which turned out to be fantastic. And you know, I've had some moments with him and I'm regretful for some of the things I've said about him, but he antagonized me in a creative way and I did to him. I was a thorn in his side. He was a thorn in my side, but it just forced us to keep moving higher, bigger guns, louder movements, more action, more bodies, everything, until I think we really carved out a niche that'll never quite come around again, that certain 80s over-the-top action genre that he and I sort of pioneered. You did. Yeah. It's like a creative marriage in a way. It is. I mean, so it's like Allie and Fraser, you need that thing that

47:14that brings you to the surface that more than any other person, it's not even hatred. This guy, oh, go away. I dream about him. It's like I'm on his mind, he's on my mind. It's very rare, you know what I mean? Men get it, I'm sure women get it too, but two alpha men who I can only relate to, it's like you can't wait to go against him, that kind of thing.

47:44better than you. And then he just gloats on it. Oh, I see the Stallone's film didn't perform very well. Oh, oh. And then vice versa. And then eventually we end up working together and expendables. And I go on the campaign trail for him. Unbelievable. When was the moment that you too that you thought we put this to rest? I mean, did it just come with age and him moving into politics and just sort of? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. At first I thought, come on.

48:12Actors in politics, this is water on water. Because we tend to, actors are really very, very self-absorbed. And politicians, if they're really good, should be just the opposite, publicly absorbed. So I saw there's a conflict there. But he was definitely sincere about it. And I don't know why, but he asked me, we're at a cigar place, would you like to, We had an event. Yeah. Why did I say that? And then sure enough, then we hit it off. And he's a very, very unique. I mean, he's one of a kind. Forget it. He's just, I'm telling you. So until that moment, you really hadn't spent time with him. You didn't know if you even liked him. No, I'm telling you. We always came to blows. When we were playing in Hollywood, we couldn't stand to be in the same arena.

49:07Right, because in the early 90s, you founded with Bruce Willis as well, Planet Hollywood. And you couldn't even, you were in business together, but you couldn't stand being in the same room. Oh my God, oh my God. It was a, I'll never forget, there's a picture of he and I dancing. And it was, I think, was it total recall or something? And it was at the Hotel du Cap in the afternoon, it's festive and everyone's there. Oh no, take a picture, okay, slide, take a picture, okay.

49:36Take a picture together guys. The director, why don't you come in here and get in the middle? I went, oh man, and then I grab him. We're waltzing. And he goes, to me it's the greatest picture because I said, let's put this, let's stop. Let's just do this dance because that's what it is. But there's never gonna be, you can do a movie about this for real. You really asked, you could, you really could. All right.

50:06We don't have much time, that's why I'm going like that. And I'm upset because I have so much to ask you. So I'm gonna skip asking you about working with Sandra Bullock and Demolition Man and Sharon Stone and the Specialist. So we're gonna move on. Bye ladies. Yeah, bye ladies, indeed. Sorry. Sorry. Yeah. What I do wanna ask you is about your body. Body? Body, yes, your physique. Now you're getting personal. Because it's several...

50:37points in your career, you were exceptionally muscular, which wasn't your build before Rocky. And I was really curious how your relationship with your body has changed over time. How, you know, you saw yourself and then how when you turned into this big action star with the big muscles and everyone was sort of venerating that. How did you see yourself? How did your relationship with that change over time? It became very intimate, you might say. It was my armor. I looked at like Rocky, Rocky, very smooth, very normal looking guy. And then I said, if we move on, you have to, I think the character would start to become a bit more vain. And then if Rambo you're playing a warrior, you'd be a little bit more animalistic. You wouldn't be so smooth. So I started to think,

51:32design your body like a jaguar, a cat, not big like Arnold, but more furrow and aggressive and very limber and move and athletic. And then it became an obsession, really bad. It became to the point where I became bulimic.

51:54Yeah, you didn't know that. Okay. I heard it here first. Yeah, because I was like, you know you would eat I was I got down to 2.6 body fat When I was doing rocky three in the opening scene literally like go for it, you know like hollow and I couldn't hold anything down or if I did I didn't want to keep it down because I wanted I became so obsessed at Staying at that point of fitness and then finally, you know, I just broke the cycle but it It got to me literally an obsessive body worship kind of a thing and Then you know you you nobody does it without you know additives and drugs period. I don't care who they say they bullshit It's it has to but then again, it isn't as though you're a junkie, but it's uh If you're gonna put on if you're gonna work and try to stay in shape for six months straight

52:47And you're, you're eating yogurt and pudding and it's not happening. You know, you just not just like these 13 stories you're saying. Oh my God, you have to. But you do it in a sense in a way of six weeks, 12 and six weeks off. And people go, you don't get that way naturally. No, you don't. You don't unless you're just a freak of nature. So everyone who says it, I can see them a mile, a mile away. You know what is obvious. But that also took a terrible toll, terrible toll.

53:16Emotionally too, because it affects your moods and everything. It wasn't until I did Copland where I had to like divest myself of that and play the weakest guy in the room, partially deaf, overweight, everything, that I really felt somewhat liberated. Then things went sideways. And I don't know, I just fell out of grace with Hollywood. But yeah, the body has played a...

53:43I've abused it. I've had nine back operation, two shoulder operation, three neck fusions, everything. Everything is held together with bailing wire, but I still have that want to stay in good shape. Do you still see it as your armor? No. Because you're still fit. You're 80? I'm sort of fit, but I've got all kinds of...

54:11take a lot of pills to keep going, you know, the kind of thing. It's coming at a terrible price. If I could do it over again, I would say, let someone else carry the banner. Don't do your own stunts. You know, I don't know what it was about just hurting myself all the time. I mean, all the time. Is it masochistic? Yeah, very masochistic. It's not like I'm self-flagellating, but If someone's going to dive onto the canvas and rock it, they take a hit full force and go backwards and land thud. Because there's no padding. You're like landing on a board with a little thin canvas. It just jars you and jars you, but you go, I can do better. I can do better. And this is all going back to dad and, you know, back there in the polo field. Like, no, you're not going to break me.

55:01But it does break. He took it broken a little bit physically, not mentally. We're gonna talk again. But I wanna end with something that you said about regret. Yeah. And that you don't get to be your age at your career without a mountain of them. And we've kind of touched on that a little. Yeah. It's horrible. It's horrible.

55:28It really is because, you know, it's the fog of war, the war of trying to succeed. You can blame it on that or just self petty, self absorption. Wow. And it is painful. But yesterday is dead. The future is unknown. All we got is today. You keep going back to that philosophy and you know, you know, forgive yourself. No.

55:55Do you forgive yourself for being a bastard? No, you just regret. I wish I hadn't done that, wish I hadn't done that. So I'm not gonna do that anymore, but because what you did, you hurt yourself. You really did. You didn't, yeah, you denied people your love and this and that, but you also did worse to yourself. Have you forgiven your parents? I've accepted that they are who they are, you know, to forgive. I guess you could say, yeah, I do. I mean, it's definitely a delicate peace treaty. But, yeah, I have to. You know, what am I going to walk around like yelling at ghosts? Come back here. You know, we're not finished. No, can't. That's about the regrets. You know, so all I can do is cherish.

57:02Every second because let's face it, you know, I can see the light at the end of the tunnel There it is and I'm incredibly fortunate to be doing Tulsa King and I mean it's a gift and David Glasser, you know like Giving me this new breath of life and a whole new character imagine playing like oh, yeah, we're doing Rambo and 80. Oh my god Who's he fighting? He's fighting Mr. Arthritis. I go what do you do? You're kind of out of there out of opponents We'll end here for now, Sylvester Stallone. Thank you so much. Ciao. On the interview, we talked to our guest twice. So the next day, I spoke with Sylvester Stallone again and he told me about his evolution from being an avatar for war in the Rambo movies into becoming personally anti-war. Hi.

58:02Hi. Back from war, what is wrong with you? I give you my word though, you have the most in-depth interview I'm ever doing, so take that to the bank. Well actually, I wanted to thank you so much for your candor yesterday. You have always been this person who has exuded invincibility. That's been your persona in your life and that's been your persona in many of your roles. And so it's kind of astonishing to see you be so vulnerable. Even though I put on this facade of being armor, of having armor, like when you see Rocky and I'm writing for Adrian, I really have a lot of empathy for people that just didn't get a break in life. And I've always thought, boy,

58:59There's so many stories in these people, but they're never going to get out. So that's why I think Rocky was such a success. Because everyone has that character that very few people get recognition for. They live in quiet suffering. They're never going to get any recognition. They're never like, I'm just here filling space. I'm just another seat on the bus.

59:29You know, you've been in so many iconic films, franchises, Rocky, Rambo, The Expendables, Now Taylor Sheridan's, Tulsa King. You were nominated for another Oscar for Creed in 2016. What's your most underappreciated performance, do you think, that you're most proud of? Kaplan, for sure. Because I had been basically reduced to a lump of meat, like you're not that smart, you're an action guy.

59:56And I've always looked at action when it's done well as modern mythology. We don't have scribes running around and carving on stone tablets about the Hercules and so on and so forth. So I decided to delve in that by accident because first blood I never imagined would transition me into more physical life because I wasn't born this physical specimen at all. And it just...

1:00:23It just became so frustrating that things are slowing down. I was 50 years old. It was 1996. And I thought, I'd like to go into the arena of the guys, the top athletes, the top actors, and see how we bounce off one another. And it became that kind of challenge. There was definitely a dichotomy between the serious actor and that guy.

1:00:52meeting me. And I really welcomed it. I really did. I did the whole thing for free because the experiment was well worth it. You know, in our first conversation, you also talked about how no one would return your calls in Hollywood for a period of years in the late 1990s when things were pretty rough for you there. And this was a period when you had movies that didn't do well. Judge Dredd, Daylight, Get Carter, Driven, Detox, Avenging Angelo.

1:01:19And I came across an interview you gave to the New York Times in 1992 just as you were filming Cliff Hanger. The article quotes one prominent Hollywood agent, and I'm gonna quote here, who said, I think he's a diminishing asset. With every film he does, he goes down a little further. He's the new Burt Reynolds. And Cliff Hanger then went on to do really well. And it seems like there were these number of moments in your life when Hollywood was trying to write you off.

1:01:48And you kept having these comebacks. I mean, how did you deal with this thing of having to keep proving yourself to this industry? Actually, I took it as somewhat invigorating because now I had a purpose. It's one thing to sit there and be, I guess, slowly, you know, your image is diminishing right before you. You're evaporating.

1:02:16But for some reason, I just said, this is a call to arms. And what am I going to go back to? I'm going to write another Rocky at 60 years old. And it was just the most ridiculous, like 60-year-old boxes, like a 120-year-old can-can dancer. It just doesn't work. It doesn't work. But I was able to get out the portion of what people go through.

1:02:43as they were going into the late years, which is grief, the sense of loss. It had nothing to do with boxing anymore. And I just felt like, God, this is the perfect opportunity now. And of course it was rejected everywhere. I mean, I had studio heads actually say, Rocky's done, and so are you, Sly. You're done.

1:03:08Go off fishing. That's not okay. I get it. And I go through rewrites after rewrites. But I've always had this sense that you have to go down swinging. Can you explain this period of not so great films? I mean, did you know the films were bad at the time? Was it a quality control issue? Yeah, it really was. I mean, I didn't apply myself to the actual quality and who were the components. So even though each project had a great ability to be successful, I don't think I really focused on the fine strokes, which is what art is made about. In other words, the right director, the right this, the right co-star, the right advertising, the right theme song. These are things that I used to really apply myself to. And I suppose I just got lazy and started this whirlpool. It makes me wonder what it does to the soul of an artistic person to make movies that aren't good. Oh boy.

1:04:11It's a death in the family because it's not as though you didn't sell a vacuum cleaner today. It's all over the world. And there is a part of human nature that revels in that. You know what I mean? And again, I don't take it personally. I think that quite often human nature says, okay, he's had enough time.

1:04:37Let's bring on the new generation. Okay. Move over slide. I should stop hogging the screen. So I get it. So it's when you reach a certain age in this business, it becomes a very, very, very competitive, delicate and tenuous career. It doesn't take much to boom. So that's why I think it's it's a very neurotic business at times because the product is you.

1:05:06It isn't like, oh, you rejected my leather jacket. No, we don't like you. But I realized, you know, here you go again. You have to do it for yourself. You have to like go out there and find the firewood and start the fire. No one is gonna knock on the door and go, here, here's an Oscar winning script. Love ya. No, it really did. It helped me.

1:05:32Because when you finally hit bottom, you have two choices. You can't go any lower and you just eventually stop breathing. And I've always said the artist dies twice. The second death is the easiest one compared to the career death in which you're being dismissed. But it just woke me up and I was so invigorated starting to write. So the proudest moment by far, in my life is Rocky Balboa because nobody wanted it. I was done. When I say done, I mean agent, fire me, managers, I was done. I go, okay, this is a, this sounds very familiar. Let's start over again. Let's see if we can do it at 60. So it was a fantastic, you know, voyage into the unknown. It literally, I said,

1:06:27Sounds very familiar when you were 29 years old, same thing. Like this is it. You know, listening to you talk about this, can you articulate your relationship then to the character Rocky Balboa? Because it that character has saved your career, launched your career. You are defined by it in many ways. America is defined by it. Rocky is kind of like my imaginary.

1:06:58male role model. It's my father. It's what I wish I could be. So when I created him, I put every component in there, the self-effacement, this humbleness, the ability to also take loss. How he's very philosophical about life is very difficult. And so I adapted that.

1:07:26It always came to the rescue because it just pours out of me. Really it does. I mean writing other things, especially if you're writing something like Rambo, which is very difficult because he's monosyllabic. His lack of expression. Rocky says everything he's thinking comes out. You know, it's not about how hard you hit, it's about how hard you can get hit. Like all these things that most people would never talk about.

1:07:55So, I found this to be like a therapeutic beyond anything I've ever, like you asked, you know, you go to therapy. That was my significant Freud right there. I have another question about Rambo. You know, as we had discussed, the first movie was quite complicated. You know, this vet that was discarded by his country who had PTSD. And you told this incredible story about how the last scene comes about.

1:08:23with the movie ending with him being arrested. But then the character over time turns into this avatar, right? This classic action movie hero, perhaps with a little less depth than the original character had. Absolutely, right. And that's my fault. That's my fault. This is where this kind of vainglorious pomposity that like, if you're like that, where do you see this?

1:08:53I didn't really focus on the depth of what he was still going through while trying to save POWs. He's trying to save his own soul. We never got into that. It's just like pervado, pervado, pervado, bulletproof. And that's all me. That's all me. I mean, that was a problem. This is when you get really hung up on kind of like clandestine narcissism.

1:09:22works his way in there, then you realize how this is a lot easier than showing your soul flexing your muscles. See what I mean? And it was terrible. Kind of, you know, like a cartoon. It came to define also this projection of American power, you know? And I'm going to quote you to you in an interview in 1985.

1:09:46When you were talking about your view of war, your politics, you said if you have the power like the United States, if you're going to talk tall and carry a big stick, eventually you've got to use it or they'll think you're bluffing. Does Rambo represent a part of like your world view at that point as well? It did. And now I realize all war is futile. It's stupid. It's a mechanism to make tons of money.

1:10:14for the War Department and manufacturers and and these kids just going out there into a gristmill being chopped up and no and then when they come back with no arms. Oh, sorry. You're on your own. I hate it. I hate it and I'm bitterly opposed to it. But at one time I was truly gung ho. Really gung ho. And I don't know if I was just trying to go against the current.

1:10:43you know in Hollywood there's a certain dynamic as you know but I can I admit it was I think it's just naivete really because I read a lot especially after first blood and I go well this is brutal this is horrible there's no glory in war none none just when did you become anti-war If you're under attack, of course, you have to defend yourself. But I don't want to get into politics now, but all wars basically destroy both sides. I mean, it really creates this horrible history. And, you know, don't get over it. They just don't. Grudges are held.

1:11:38I mean, countries are destroyed and lines are withdrawn. For what, though? I know you don't want to talk about politics, but I am interested in something you just said, which is this idea of Hollywood being liberal and you being seen as a political conservative.

1:11:59Did that put you at odds in what was perceived as a liberal industry or is that perception actually wrong? I mean it is wrong because I Totally understand why the perception is like indolable. Well, you know when you when Rocky came out, I was so naive I'd never even voted. I was like pushing 30 years old. I had zero I didn't even know what a difference between Democrat and Republican. I functioned in another universe But when Rocky wrapped himself in a flag, that sort of thing, and every movie we were up against at that time in competition was very, very heavy, very political. I mean, just the extremely erudite, intellectual, and Rocky was not that. It was emotional. And I think that's that right away put me over here. And then when I did First Blood,

1:12:57Again, I had no idea that there was such a chasm between the left and the right and, you know, me, you know, being jingoistic. He's a saber rattler. It was, again, naivete on my part. But yes, it caused a major riff. And I wish it wasn't like that because I really think a lot of these actors have great empathy, great heart.

1:13:27And they're they're really more for the working man kind of thing. They're just down in the trenches. And that's where I live, you know what I mean? But I'm not considered that. And sometimes, you know, you say things that you don't you don't realize the long range effects. So you're currently in Tulsa, King, which is a Taylor Sheridan series. It's coming up on its fourth season. That's right. At this point in your career, What keeps bringing you back to the screen? I mean, this is no longer that you have anything left to prove. This is now... It's not about proving. Well, not proving, but this... No, but I know exactly what you mean. Like, what do you have to prove? It's like a racehorse. You just keep going until it falls down. It doesn't know how to walk. It knows how to run. And...

1:14:23It's like it's almost like breathing. You know what I mean like some it's like I talked to Al but you know dinner with these guys This is the you are that animal you cease to exist without this format It's just it's what gives you life You said something in our first interview that really caught my ear you said Quote that you can see the light at the end of the tunnel which I took to mean sort of the end of, you know, your life. And I was wondering how you feel about death and how you feel about that there is less time in front of you than there is behind you. Yeah. In panic mode. Really? Well, because that's what I said before, you know, I built a castle with thousands of stones made of regrets. And I'm trying to make up for it in my own petty way.

1:15:22And I don't know if there's enough time. And then I go, there is not enough time. What I have to do is just focus on the ones that really need me and the ones that I want to go on and have their own life and legacy. And I'm at the point now, you know, at 78, you're kind of like chow. It's where the insurance company goes, yeah, that's the average. So I'm two years on borrowed time. And I'm making up for it as much as I can. You're never too old to be in love.

1:15:50never too old to dance with the great memories that you've had and not wallowing the worst swamp of all, which is the swamp of loneliness. That is truly premature burial. Well, thank you for the gift of all those characters. Thank you for your time. Sylvester Stallone, I appreciate it. I appreciate it. Keep punching. That's Sylvester Stallone.

1:16:22And a note, we reached out to Devereux for comment after this interview, and a spokesperson replied that while they've not read the book, they respect Mr. Stallone's quote, right to tell his story his own way, take his account seriously, and are sorry for any trauma he remembers experiencing. His memoir, The Steps, will be published on September 29th.

1:16:41To watch this interview, and many others, you can subscribe to our YouTube channel at youtube.com slash at symbol the interview podcast. This conversation was produced by Seth Kelly. It was edited by John Woo, mixing by Sophia Landman, original music by Dan Powell and Marion Lazano.

1:16:59Photography by Philip Montgomery. The rest of the team is Priya Matthew, Wyatt Orm, Paola Newdorf, Joe Bill Munoz, Eddie Costas, Mark Zemmel, Gaby Contreras, Kathleen O'Brien, and Brooke Minters. Our executive producer is Allison Benedict. Next week, David interviews Chris Rock. I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro, and this is the interview from The New York Times.