The Daily - The Best TV Shows of the 21st Century

0:01Hi everyone, it's Natalie. If you're not yet a Time Subscriber, we have some news for you. You can enjoy full access to The Times without a paywall for 30 days. All you have to do is download the app to get your first month completely free. And if you're already a Time Subscriber, thank you. Okay, here's today's show. From The New York Times, I'm Natalie Ketrowak. This is The Daily on Sunday.

0:36On January 3rd, 2000, the Weather Channel debuted a new show called Your Weather Today. It was a show about weather. It was, we think, the very first new television show of the 21st century.

1:04In the 26 years that followed, we got a lot more new shows. Some of them better than your weather today. Here in 2026, TV is now firmly a prestige art form with big stars, auteur creators, and huge production budgets. And it's become absolutely central to the cultural conversation. So to commemorate that evolution of TV over the last quarter century, my colleagues here at The Times undertook a little project. They contacted over a thousand TV luminaries, showrunners, writers, actors, and asked them to pick their favorite TV shows of the last 26 years.

2:03And they heard back from a lot of them. People like Lena Waithe. Bojack Horseman is like this crazy experiment that should have gone awry. Adam Scott. The good wife is that legal procedural, but it cuts way deeper. And Mad Men creator Matthew Weiner. I loved Orange is the New Black the minute I saw it.

2:26Then they took all that data and compiled a list of the hundred best TV shows of the 21st century, a list we've been slowly rolling out over the course of this week. But now the whole thing is officially out, which means that the fun part can start. Picking that list apart. And that's what we're here today to do. I've invited two of my colleagues to the show, Gilbert Cruz, who's our candidate editor, and James Panawazek, our chief TV critic.

2:53Both of them are TV fanatics, but neither of them picked the shows for this list, which means that they are free to debate it as much as they want. It's Sunday, September 27th. Jim, Gilbert, welcome to the Sunday Daily. It is wonderful to have you both here. Thank you for having me. It's great to be here. Okay. I've set everything up in the intro, what the list is, the fact that neither of you can be blamed for it. Yeah. High five, Jim.

3:25I think the thing that we should do is just dive right into the list itself. Give the people what they want. I want to focus on the top 10 shows and what they tell us about what's happened in television over the last 25 years or so. I think we should start with numbers 6 to 10, and we'll save the top five for later in the show. Gilbert, would you please give us the 10th to 6th best TV shows?

3:54of the 21st century as voted on by our respondents. At number 10, we have Atlanta. At number nine, Curb Your Enthusiasm. Number eight is 30 Rock. Number seven is Veep. And number six is Game of Thrones. The first thing that grabbed me about that rundown is just how many comedies are in there. There aren't actually a lot of comedies in the top five.

4:25And I don't mean to sound like Larry David here, but I do love complaining It's one of my hobbies and so I do want to start with a complaint Why are the comedies in the lower half of the top 10? Why aren't they in the top five? Oh my god, I have an opinion on this and I know Jim has very strong opinion on this and and and what I'm gonna say is yes some of the titles that 10 through 6 are quote, comedies. But I think something that this top 10 shows overall is that there's a way in which great shows always mix comedy and drama. I think if I knew you were going to say that, I'm going to say it because it's right. If you look at Atlanta, for example, the number 10 show, it is a quote, comedy, but some of the creepiest, most dramatic episodes I remember watching through that period came on Atlanta. Congratulations.

5:28I choose you. You're my sacrifice. Conversely, if you look at some of the episodes from the Top 5 shows, they are full of laughs, even though they are dramas. So I think sort of dividing it in that way, I think it's a little bit more complicated than that with all due respect. Jim? It actually surprised me that there was this much comedy in the Top 10. Why? You think of...

5:56a lot of the most talked about television shows as being dramas from this period. On top of what you have that sort of ingrained bias, you know, you look at the Oscars, you know, dramas win best picture comedies. It's an honor just to be nominated. It honestly was a bit of a surprise in showing to me that this many comedies or dramaties or quasi comedies or part of its comedy made as good a showing there. And to me, part of that is, I think, because people develop an affection for these kinds of shows. And maybe that gives them a little more staying power. I think one very big and interesting question within television of the past quarter century has been, you know, how funny does a comedy have to be?

6:47Right. Do you really define comedy as just, you know, the highest number of jokes per minute? Yeah, no, but I mean, you can't deny that there is a particular joy to a show that is only trying to make you laugh. Gilbert, around this project, you talk to a bunch of people who cast ballots for the best show. I've been watching these interviews and so many of the respondents talk about being bowled over by just how many jokes are in a single episode.

7:12of 30 Rock. Like, particularly the comedy people that you spoke with. I remember Brett Goldstein from Ted Lasso and Joel Kim Booster and Jesse Armstrong who created Succession. They are all so clearly enamored with 30 Rock. The amount of genius jokes per second is infuriating.

7:40I think the jokes permitted on that show are probably the highest of most comedies, certainly higher than a lot of comedies that are airing right now. I almost find it painful to watch. It's so brilliant in its density of jokes. Okay, I was going down some very enjoyable YouTube rabbit holes and prepping for this conversation, and I found I think what is the perfect example, which I'm going to play for you. Tracy Jordan, played by Tracy Morgan, is talking to his doctor, Dr. Spachemin, aka Dr. Spaceman.

8:11Here we go. I... The reason I think this is the perfect example is that I think there's six jokes in ten seconds. Like every single thing that was said minus one word is a joke. I didn't understand the phrase joke density, which a lot of people used in reference to this show, until I watched 30 Rock. The idea that every joke maybe has three punch lines within it. Lemon, you look terrible.

9:01And I once watched you eat oysters while you had a cold. We had him, Jack, and we lost him. So Kenneth and I had to spend the rest of the afternoon trying to think like Tracy. I ended up eating a swordfish dinner at a strip club, and Kenneth grabbed a cop's gun and shot a blimp. Well, tomorrow's not the day. There's something a little bit overwhelming about it. That's what I will say. For the people that might not have this in their very top, it's like, you know, it's a lot. I mean, it's hilarious. It's also a lot.

9:25You know, I will say 30 Rock is one of these shows that I just I mentally quote lines from and jokes from to myself over and over again, you know, Siri kill Jenna. I also think that that is a difficult thing to pull off successfully. And, you know, for me, that's a that's a thing.

9:46I'm gonna offend some of our listeners, but it turns me off about a show like Family Guy, for instance. You know, I think that there is a line where, you know, if you are just the unending joke machine, you end up with Family Guy. But, you know, 30 Rock, I think, also had a take. It had things it wanted to say about the media and the culture at the moment. And it was funny and it always had something to say, which, you know, I think is the difference between a show that you will laugh at and then immediately forget and a show that sticks with you.

10:15I'm just interested with this one where you guys would have put 30 rock on your list. I'd have put it in the top 100. Top 50. Wow. We're telling 26 years here, right? That's an average of less than four shows per year. To say that, you know, something would be in the top 50 is to say that, you know, it would be one of the best one or two shows of like one year out of those 26. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Jim, because I say now.

10:44to all of our wonderful commenters. You're like, why was this show so low on our list? Brothers and sisters, like being number 80 in a period when thousands and thousands of shows have come out across English language TV, that's quite impressive. And so I probably would have put 30 rock in my top 10, but I am a simple man, not as sophisticated as Mr. Panawazic here.

11:10Okay, I want to talk about a show that I personally would have put in my top five. Yes. Which I think is very different, comedy-wise, I think than 30 Rock, which is Curb. Your enthusiasm. Why do I have to thank you? For dinner? That my husband and I treated you to? Oh, I thought he treated me to it. It's like one joke that lasts a half an hour. Like the bit is basically the same bit every time.

11:39Larry is having a bad time doing something, you know? Using our money to pay for it. So you could thank us. We're taking you out to dinner. Well, you can call it our money, but just for the sake of discussion, he's the one who goes to work and earns the money. You don't work. It builds. You experience his particular point of view about the world.

12:02Honey, it's our money. Well, this is not... No, brother. I've heard the money. So what do you do? You pay her a salary? Talk to me about why that show ranked so high on everybody else's list. Okay, so I think Curb Your Enthusiasm gets at one of these questions of what is 21st century TV? What was great in 21st century TV? Because Curb Your Enthusiasm comes, of course, from Larry David. He created Seinfeld with Jerry Seinfeld. Yep. A lot of the same themes, a lot of the same sort of, you know, attention to faux pas and gripes and personal minutia. But Curb Your Enthusiasm, the sort of freedom and range of expression that he got from doing this show for HBO allowed him to create this

12:54pure raw uncut version of it that I think in many ways, maybe not by itself, you can also, you know, throw in shows like the British Office here and so on. It kind of defined this genre of cringe comedy, for lack of a better word, that you see coming up in show after show after show on the larger list here. I'm Julia Louis-Dreyfus, and guess what? I'm in the New York Times' best TV shows of the 21st century.

13:26Imagine that. The idea of nothing, to a certain extent, is taken to the tenth power or a hundredth power on curb. These small conflicts that are usually nothing are exaggerated and put under a microscope and made large. That idea existed on Seinfeld, of course. They're completely related. It's like same genus, same species. I don't know how else to say it, you know? When I think about Curb, I feel like there's a degree of cringe comedy mixed with, I think, wish fulfillment in it, because you're watching someone have reactions that you might have to something like, for example, the stop and chat. Why didn't you say I love him? I know. He wanted to do a stop and chat. I didn't want to do a stop and chat.

14:26When you're walking on the street and you pass an acquaintance, you should not have to respect the social more of stopping and talking to that person. Is that why you never talk to me at our local train station?

14:36I am being exposed. Well, we see each other in the morning. I don't think I agree. Okay. Stop and chat. It's that we shouldn't have to do that. No, I agree with you. You're absolutely right. And Larry's right. It's Larry. It's more than that. For him, all I need to do is just say hello. That was kind of rude. That was not rude. You know, humor comes from pain, right? Humor comes from discomfort. And this is humor about discomfort. And it is a thing that he is just Okay, there's one more comedy here. Veep. Veep. Who wants to say a word about Veep?

15:34Veep is just master of the insult and master of the curse word and there's just Just that alone not even talking about the cast which is incredible Is just makes this so rewatchable that the cynicism that it has about politics Possibly like appropriate for the era. It was just perfect. It's a bad look. That's how he looks. That's his face Make the good one of me Photoshop it in. I can't airbrush history, ma'am. I'm not Joseph Stalin. No, no, that's true. You're not. You don't have a tenth of his charm. It's a show set in politics, but it comes from this, this beautifully cynical notion of human nature that, that people are just, you know, grasping and inept and will say what they need to say and do what they need to do to get ahead. And, and, you know, especially

16:30in a setting where there's such a history of, you know, just hypocrisy and platitudes and, you know, just the way that it's able to kind of puncture that is beautiful. It doesn't feel accidental to me how many times in the last several years people have pointed out that some scene in Washington seems like it's straight out of vip. I think that just keeps coming up because the show hits it so hard. And on such a human level.

17:00I'm Padma Lakshmi and I voted on the New York Times best shows of the 21st century. I do think Veep tapped into a kind of cluelessness that many people in various fields, including being a chef or any other high-profile leadership position, they slip into an ignorant bliss because there's so many people clearing their path. And they got there because they're smart.

17:32But then they're sort of infantilized by the people who are supposed to smooth their path or make their lives easier. But it's set in this cesspool of Washington politics and backbiting and everybody really just trying to protect their own job. And that is not just particular to Washington. I can tell you that's very particular to Hollywood. All right, we're going to take a quick break. And when we come back, we will talk about the top five TV shows of the 21st century. I'm so excited. We'll be right back. Okay, let's get into it. We are here, top five very best TV of the 21st century, according, again, not to you two, but to industry insiders. Gilbert, what is number five? At number five, we have the show Fleabag. Fleabag.

18:41I love Fleabag. I am so happy to get to talk about Fleabag. I did a fart the other day that was exactly like Mum's. A door opening or suspicious duck. Door opening. It means you're getting Mum's bum. God, I'd be lucky. My bottom dropped ages ago. My farts used to be like... Now they're just sort of fighting their way out. I haven't farted in about three years.

19:07A thing that came up a lot in the interviews about this show is that people really connected to this particular portrayal of a very particular woman. I'm Alexis Blodell and I voted for the New York Times best TV shows of the 21st century. In Fleabag, it was just remarkable how deeply funny and unashamed the whole piece was, you know.

19:39unapologetically self-expressive. She's incredibly vulnerable while being completely irreverent. And I don't know how she does that because that's... I don't think I've ever seen that done so precisely or pitch perfect before. And all the while she's just graciously self-possessed and, you know, presenting something modern and fresh to everybody to kind of shake us up.

20:08Fleabag is a dark comedy, comic drama, another one of these hybrids about a woman who is sort of on a journey of forgiveness, has done some terrible things in her life and is trying to move on and find some sense of completeness. Yep. People make mistakes. That's why they put robbers on the ends of pencils.

20:48It's not a joke. I don't know. I mean, I think that that Fleabag, which I was delighted to see and Delightedly surprised to see Lynn this high on the list Kind of wraps up a lot of things that are great about television of this era Number one playing with around with the idea of like what is a protagonist that people will identify with right like Fleabag is somebody if you pitch this, you know to CBS in 1919 or whatever, you know, you were not surviving that pitch meeting well. She is not, you know, what in classic TV terms you would identify as likable, or, you know, having the attributes that you would usually associate with a TV protagonist. You're almost late. It's the Flash Pooh in prep. Christ, did you wash your hands? Of course not. But she's real. She's well drawn.

21:48And Phoebe Waller-Bridge, who created the show, it is just chock full of voice, which, you know, I think is really one thing that marks a lot of the best shows of the last quarter century, the best shows on this list. I met someone. What? Really? Yeah. God, that's amazing. What does he do? He's a priest.

22:14This was a story that she wanted to tell that she had an inner mind and you know It turns out that you could tell a story like this on television That was that specific and personal to your vision and people would find the universal in it I think it's also interesting to think of the economics of TV that led us to the point where someone like Phoebe Waller-Bridge could have this show, right? In 2015, the phrase Pete TV was coined by the the head of FX, this guy John Landgraf, and then this debuts a year later. And what he was describing was this era in which network TV cable TV and then the the the rapidly growing streaming TV services like Netflix and Amazon where Fleabag debuted in the United States Were all in a race to just get good stuff out there So at a certain point there was more TV on air at at any given time than it ever been on TV before and those were part of the circumstances that allowed someone like Phoebe Waller bridge with her incredibly idiosyncratic voice

23:37to have sort of this platform to have her show on. You mean, she's both a product of and a reflection of the era that so defined the last 10 or 20 years? Absolutely. Yeah. Are you a lesbian? Not strictly. You? Do you like old films? Some. And what's your favorite period film? Carrie. Okay, moving to number four, we have... Succession.

24:09Did you ever think I could do it? Do what? The top job? Oh, I don't know, maybe. You can say. Well, I just... You know, you're smart, you're good, but I just don't know. What? Come on. You're not a killer. You have to be a killer. Okay, this is one that I think you might have been thinking of as...

24:50a drama that is also a comedy. And I would agree that I have left harder watching this show than I have watching many, many comedies. It is funny. It is really funny. But the thing that came out most from those interviews and that stuck with me as well.

25:09is that basically this is a show about horrible people, just really, really bad people, the worst people. They kill, they cover up vast conspiracies, they run the entire world for their own benefit, and yet somehow, and this is the thing that a lot of people try to wrestle with, you kind of end up rooting for them? I'm Andy Cohen, and I voted for the New York Times' best TV shows of the 21st century. I've...

25:38known people like the Roy's and I thought that the depiction in succession was pitch-perfect. The lifestyle and the world, it was exactly as some rarefied people live. I thought it was interesting because there's absolutely no one to root for on that show. You kind of root for Shiv.

26:06for, you know, in and out for a few seasons, and then you kind of realize she's as bad as the rest of them. I mean, they're all truly horrible people. So, which is fascinating that a show with no one to root for could resonate and be so thrilling to watch, but it was, and I thought it was a great statement on media and culture and politics today.

26:35Boy did they nail it. It is amazing to have this show, which is about this media Titan, Logan Roy and his kids who are all trying to take over his company. And they're, as you say, they're all terrible, right? And yet you don't necessarily need to have likable people to be invested in their stories, to be invested in their lives. Yeah, I love succession.

27:04I'm not sure that I would say that I liked any of the Roy's, but I was fascinated by them. They're these people who live in almost a different universe than the rest of us do, and the rest of us are just ants to them. Yet, they also have these desires and aches and motivations that you can recognize, you know.

27:28not being loved by your father, feeling like a failure, the feelings of competitiveness and needing validation. The beauty of it, I think, is that it was able to make all this very real without excusing any of the horribleness. You had to live with both of them and let them sit side by side. You took away the last six months I could have had with my dad. No.

27:57Yes. Yes. You sucked up to him and you cut me out. It's not my fault that you didn't get his approval. And like Veep, amazing one-liners that you will never forget. I mean, Logan Royce saying to his children, I love you, but you are not serious people. That will stick with me forever. I mean... Do you use that in your life? You know, I don't, but I think about it a lot. You are not serious figures. I love you.

28:33But you are not serious people. It's like a mythological kind of cruelty. I think a lot of this show is sort of operates on kind of a mythological level where these people are so powerful that they're almost transhuman for all their human frailties. Well, here's news. We are going after it. And what's more?

29:14Okay, number three. This was a show I liked, but I did not love as much as other people loved it, so... Tell me what people love so much about this show, because I understand that it is one of the best shows of all time. I loved it like other people loved it. I loved it maybe more than other people loved it. I may have loved it more than other shows that ended up higher than this show on the list. But, you know, this show, which was an impeccably cast, beautifully crafted, brilliantly imagined.

30:22picture of the advertising industry in the 1960s and very early 70s in New York. It worked on a lot of levels that great TV works on. You know, John Hamm gives an amazing performances, Don Draper, the dashing protagonist with a secret past. It's also a story about stories because You know, as it reminds you over and over, people in the advertising industry are basically people whose job is to tell America its stories and its myths to itself. Advertising is based on one thing, happiness. Maybe I'm a sucker for that because I was an English major.

31:21And so, you know, I sort of eat up that kind of rich text. It's a billboard on the side of the road that screams with reassurance that whatever you're doing, it's okay. You are okay. I've watched this show probably more times than anything on the top of this list. How many times?

31:48At least four or five times in full. Wow I've had family members who have rewatched in so I've rewatched it with them besides rewatching individual there are great TV shows that you know I've seen and I don't necessarily need to see them more than once you know I feel like I'm seeing new layers of Craft and construction and artistry every time I watch this show Gilbert I've watched Mad Men all the way through several times as well. Okay, and it is just it's wonderful to look at everyone looks so cool and stylish and there's something about the 60s and people smoking and drinking and there's a little fantasy fulfillment there, but there is also a way in which the show is just as psychologically perceptive

32:36as any other show I've seen on TV. And I think it does have to do with the underlying conceit that Jim talked about. It is about advertising. It is about, in a way, lying to people in order to sell a product. It's also about people lying to themselves and each other about who they are, who we are. It's very deep, amazingly performed, very funny, very funny show. And I just love it so much.

33:03I'm Coleman Domingo and I voted for the New York Times best TV shows of the 21st century. Mad Men ushered in the golden age of television. It really did. It was groundbreaking for AMC and it really gave us characters like essential characters that you can you sort of believed in but then you were conflicted by you're looking at our culture you're looking at how women are treated in our culture and how The things that they had to do, the character Peggy, because they're my favorite characters, to watch her start from where she was starting and then watch her evolve and find her voice. And also Don Draper to see all his pitfalls and look at, it's deconstructing the myth and the American dream of the 1950s. Okay, getting closer to the top of the list here. Gilbert, what's number two? The Wire. This feels like the ultimate we don't really have time to dig into this show kind of show.

34:07But let's do what we can. I should start off saying that I was actually really stunned to see that the wire did not end up as number one. Same. It's not just because...

34:29I think it's one of the most amazing achievements that's been accomplished on TV or maybe any popular art form in terms of just telling this all-encompassing story of the dysfunction of cities and of systems. And it was so broad and sprawling and yet never felt like it was wasting your time or losing focus.

34:56I'm DB Weiss and I voted for the New York Times. I'm David Benioff and I voted for the New York Times best TV shows of the 21st century. I think the fourth season of The Wire is the greatest season of television that I've seen. I just think it's kind of like a novel from beginning to end. The Wire asks for a lot of you it demands a lot of you and it deserves that. That season for me is just kind of shows what what television is capable of what a season of television is capable of at its highest powers. Reading war and peace isn't easy and takes a lot of your time and a lot of attention and ultimately when you finish reading war and peace you're damn glad you finished reading war and peace and I kind of felt the same way about the wire which on the upside I think takes less time than reading war and peace. First of all it's just got tremendously rich

35:53flawed characters. Yes. You know, on very rarely for TV, on one side of the law as much as on the other. Yeah. You know, the criminals in this show are not just perps. They are people with ideas and motivations and backstories. I win. If you catch the other dude's king and trap it, then you win. All right, but if I make it to the end, I'm top dog.

36:24Nah, yo, it ain't like that. Look pawns man in the game They did cap quick they'd be out the game early unless they some smart-ass pawns the way that the show digs into the systems of America at all levels is what makes it so unique and so special people have used the word novelistic to refer to the show and I think some people use it because Books are fancier than TV and so to call something novelistic means that you're giving it a level of appreciation that TV doesn't usually get but I think it is appropriate in the way in which Unlike almost any other TV show it it sort of moves between all these different levels I'm Brett Goldstein and I voted for the best TV shows of the 21st century for the New York Times I'm not joking when I say this the wire is how I understand the world

37:28I truly think it taught me how the world works. And what I mean by that is how people work. Not just the show shows you how the police work, how the government works, how the press works, how the drug dealers work, how the diva doors work. It shows you all of that. It shows you all the elements that make up a city. But the way that it expresses how hard it is to achieve anything good.

37:58is so clear. It really did change how I saw the world and how people work and how 90% of people are just trying to protect themselves and that's why it makes it impossible to achieve anything. And any small incremental change for good is a miracle. I feel like this show more than any other show I've seen shines a very entertaining but very serious and very perceptive light unlike a dark corner of the American experiment. The job will not save you, Jimmy. It won't make you whole. It won't fill your ass up. I don't know. A good case. Ends. They all end. The handcuffs go click and it's over. And the next morning, it's just you and your room with yourself. Until the next case. Boy, you need something outside of this here.

39:02Okay, I feel a little bit like we're saying that's enough about Hamlet. Let's move on. But we do have to talk about number one on this list, which is Gilbert. Breaking Bad! Who are you talking to right now? Who is it you think you see? What makes this the best show? And I'm asking you to embody the best case. I understand you may not agree, but make the case.

39:37Wow, do we have two non-agreers on the panel? Just a chess. I mean, it's an incredible show. I'm just, you know, it's not the wire. Yeah, it's a show that I probably would have put in my top five or top ten. I am not in danger, Skyler. I am the danger. A guy opens his store and gets shot and you think that of me? No. I am the one who knocks. So Breaking Bad, a show created by Vince Gilligan, is essentially the story of Walter White.

40:07who when we start the series is a chemistry teacher, he finds out that he is cancer, doesn't have that much longer to live, and he decides to get into the meth business because he knows chemistry so well, he's gonna produce the finest meth that has ever been produced, get a bunch of money, leave it for his family, and along the way he turns into essentially a kingpin in Albuquerque. That's right. Now.

40:37Say my name. Eisenberg. God damn right. It is a crime show. People love crime shows. It has an amazing cast, you know, starring with Brian Cranston. It has amazing villains, including Jean-Carlo Esposito as Gus Fring. It is tense. It is violent. It arrived at a perfect moment for the binge age.

41:13This show is made to be binged. It has incredible cliffhangers. It has incredible energy and forward motion. Okay, can I just say I had watched what I thought was almost all of Breaking Bad. And then stopped watching it because it was too intense. And so in preparation for this, I...

41:35Fired it back up because I was like I have to see the end turns out I was not as close to the end as I thought so then I had to binge basically all of the last season of Breaking Bad and can I just say it's not an enjoyable experience I hear you that there's cliffhangers So you just want to keep eating it up, but it does something to you it messes with your head I think a lot of people like that just just to be clear. Yeah, I also think that that kind of points up something that was really interesting in the experience of TV and how we watched TV in the 21st century, which is okay a lot of people watched Breaking Bad slowly the old-fashioned TV way right they watched one episode a week and then another one the next week and then they waited a year or whatever and they watched the next season right yeah and some people did what you did and you know you know enjoyed it better than you did maybe but you know really plowed through this now now now what's the difference between those well as Gilbert was saying

42:32what Breaking Bad is really rooted in is a moral question and I think the interesting question that Gilligan races in the show is did Walter White's experience turn him from a good person to a bad person or was there this potentially bad person all the time in him that had the opportunity to get out because of his circumstances and I honestly think that the way you see that might well depend on how you watched the show. If you watch it slowly over time, it can seem more like it's a good person turning into a bad person. If you binge it, you may be more likely to see that, no, this is actually the story of somebody who, you know, Heisenberg was in him all along. Yeah. And it was just waiting to bust out. Heisenberg being his nom de guerre. His nom de meth. Exactly.

43:27As part of this project our TV editor Jeremy Eggner got to interview Vince Gilligan and a couple of castmates of Breaking Bad and the subject of the anti-hero came up and Vince Gilligan who wrote one of this era's great Anti-heroes was raising the question of have we done it enough has in a way reality and fiction started to come together and maybe we don't actually need to sort of lawd people who are doing bad things. The whole anti-hero thing in general, it was still a pretty new thing. I'm kind of thinking now, seeing the world the way it is. If I had my druthers, they'd be considered cautionary tales, not aspirational. I don't know, maybe we've had enough anti-heroes for a while, seeing the country the way the shape that it's in. I think that Vince Gilligan gets to do that because he did this thing better than a lot of people did it.

44:24part of the trick I think that he used at several moments during that show was putting Walt up against someone who was more evil, right? Yeah. Yeah. Which is probably a trick that a lot of these anti-hero dramas that we see represented on this list do from time to time. And it's a way of keeping you invested, of wanting you to see the thing that Walt is trying to accomplish.

44:54get accomplished and pulling you along to the point where at some point you have to stand back and you think, oh my God, what am I doing? Why am I behind this guy? At what point does he go too far? It's really a difficult trick to pull off without either rationalizing evil or turning off your audience.

45:20I'm Matthew Weiner and I voted for the New York Times Best. I'm Debra Jacobs and I voted for the New York Times. I'm Richard Gad and I voted in the New York Times top 100 best TV shows of the century. Nobody. I don't care what anybody says. Nobody but Brian knew that he had that in him. I don't know if my loyalty shifted watching Breaking Bad as much as it was interesting to gauge where culture was at. It was a real parody on on sort of the health system in America and the kind of ludicrous lens some people have to go to to get help and look after people when they're gone. And he's a model for casting against hype or for the philosophical reality that everybody has that kind of violence in them and if they're pushed to it. But I think it's some of the best examples of television writing, Golden Age, really getting to dive into

46:16anti-heroes and questionable morals. To write in the heart of it was intense, brilliant social-policy commentary, alongside the best acting and best storytelling you'll ever see. It's an unbelievable show. All right, we're going to take another quick break. And when we come back, we're going to talk about what's not on this list. We'll be right back. So we're getting near the end here. And I feel like we need to take a second to talk about what this list in...

46:56all its great wisdom may have gotten wrong. So I want each of us to talk about a show that should be on the list or should be higher on the list, but isn't. I'm going to start with my favorite show in TV history, The Sopranos. They said it was a panic attack. Of course, all the blood work and the neurological work came back negative. And they sent me here. You don't agree that you had a panic attack. How are you feeling now?

47:30Good. Fine. Back at work. What line of work are you in? Waste management consultant. Gilbert, I get the sense you've been hearing from readers about the fact that the Sopranos is not on this list. Would you care to quickly just set the record straight about that? I would like to set the record straight. The Sopranos, which is a great show, one of the best TV shows of all time, came out in 1999. 1999 was before our cutoff.

48:03And one could say, why did you have that cutoff? And I would say because we need rules in this world and this is the rule that we came up with. Jim, how do you feel about that cutoff issue? I actually argued for it. I think a list of 21st century shows means shows that you could not have watched in the 20th century. But I think we also pulled off a little magic trick here. The Sopranos is not on the list, but also it is everywhere on the list.

48:33Okay, say why. Explain that. What this list really ends up being because of the peculiar nature of when the 21st century happened to begin is a portrait of TV after the Sopranos changed much of what TV could be. The Sopranos debuts in 1999. It's one of the first big sort of cultural phenomenon shows on HBO.

49:03It ends up bringing in an era when cable starts to surpass network TV as a creative force, which we see all over this list. It introduces the idea of the anti-hero and challenges the idea of what kind of show people will watch. Do people only want a route for the good guy? It's pretty easy to draw a line from Tony Soprano to Walter White. You can see some of that in Succession.

49:31You can see it in lesser ways in a show like House, a show about a doctor diagnosing illnesses, that's a classic TV genre, but it's a doctor who's kind of a jerk. It introduces an idea that serial, you know, telling an ongoing story that doesn't just wrap up at the end of the episode, but continues out over episodes and seasons, that that is something that people have the patience for and will get engaged in.

50:01The Sopranos in 1999 demonstrates that you can do these new things in television. And this class of shows that begins in 2000 shows the after effects of this. Okay. Well, thank you for indulging my Sopranos love, even though it had no business being on a list that was just in the 21st century. Give me your shows. What should have been on here? Gilbert? This is a sick and perverse show.

50:33And I just love it, love it, love it so much. It is a show called Hannibal. It was on NBC. Yeah, okay. It was a TV version of the story that we saw on the big screen in the movies Manhunter and the Silence of the Lambs about the character Hannibal Lecter.

51:04And it is one of the grossest things I've ever seen in my entire life. I don't know how it made it onto network TV But it also is one of the most I would argue one of the most beautiful shows that has ever been put on TV Well, there have been a recent run of cannibalistic shows that have done well on TV So, you know, I'm not endorsing cannibalism. That's not what I'm here to do. I just think It's beautiful. The acting was awesome and bananas. And it's just, it did not belong on TV. And yet, there it was. And I just felt like it was a show that was done just for me. Did you just smell me? Difficult to avoid. I really must introduce you to a finer aftershave that smells like something with a ship on the bottle. I keep getting it for Christmas. Jim, how do you feel about Hannibal? Help us left me a little cold, honestly.

51:59But I think it was really well executed, and I was a little surprised it wasn't on the list. I live in the cold. It warmed me up, Jim. Gilbert wanted darker on this list. Jim, what about you? Natalie, where do I start? There are so many shows that I would have put on this list if I were God Adventure Time. 100% awesome attuned. I would have loved to seen Transparent on this list.

52:27I was very surprised that orange is the new black is not on But it's just been one day and I can't my god. These are good ones wait just that there's not more reality TV I think you could make a strong case for putting jackass on this is like a great work of American art Wow Incredible jackass, but that's not the reality TV show I expected you to say should have been on this list But I love it more say but say why jackass I just make the case real quick because I got to hear it I mean jackass is just like it It is what it is, you know, which is this amazing anarchic prank show that, like a lot of the best television is just reveling in the idea of, can we have fun filming this and putting it on the air? I'm Johnny Knoxville, and this is the Bear Trap.

53:24The heart of like a lot of you know, they're great like David Letterman pranks and it is This beautiful like hilarious distilled chaos But a show that I I not only would have put on this list that is not on it But I probably would have put in my top 10 is a show that you may have forgotten or never heard of called rectify When you are you begin to go deeper and That was about a man who had been released from prison and returned home and was trying to get his life together and possibly clear his name. Okay. It was beautifully acted.

54:37sensitive, nuanced, almost like religious exploration of redemption and grace and forgiveness that maybe for those reasons never generated that much of an audience, but I just think was a gorgeous character portrait that didn't get enough attention then and now, but if you can seek it out on streaming.

55:05I highly recommend you add to your list. But I honestly can't say that I did, in fact, kill her. Just don't remember for the life of me. Okay, well that really makes me want to watch rectify Hannibal. I'm gonna have to think about, maybe I'll queue it up. One of the best things about this list I understand is that it is very interactive, right? Readers can kind of participate in it.

55:47Absolutely. So, you know, we got hundreds of people in the industry to ask them what they think but we also want New York Times readers and listeners to have their say and so they can go and pick their own top 10 shows and they could share that. They can also vote and we will count all them up and let people know what the readers of the New York Times think are the top 100 shows of the 21st century. And I expect there are going to be several different titles.

56:12on that list. All right, we'll see if the Sopranos can make it in somehow on that list. That's not how the calendar works, but sure. Okay, well, I'm going to hold out hope. Jim, Gilbert, thank you both so much for being here. Thank you. Thank you, Natalie. To view the full list of the hundred best TV shows of the century, you can visit nytimes.com slash best TV. This episode was produced by Alex Barron. It was edited by Wendy Doar, fact checking by Lena Richards, Tina Antolini, and Alyssa Dudley.

56:48It was engineered by Rowan Nemistow and contains music from Dan Powell. Production assistance from Dahlia Haddad. That's it for the Sunday Daily. I'm Natalie Ketroff. See you tomorrow.