Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - Am I Being Gaslit?

0:00Esther PerelWhat you are about to hear is a classic ester calling, a one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. Hello, hello. Hello. So you wrote the question or you recorded the question, but if you could ask it to me again as we speak today. I'm wondering...

0:40Speaker 3if I'm being gaslit by my partner or if it's a case that I'm just being overly sensitive. I feel like there's that I get certain treatment when we're alone that feels very hidden but you know in speaking to him he says I'm overly sensitive but like I'm overly boundaries and that I am actually It's more that I'm treating him badly and he gets angry at me for me being kind of bad. And he admits that sometimes his behaviour isn't great and he's working on it and he's worked a lot on it. I just have no idea if I'm basically a bad person and if I'm treating him like crap and not being sensitive to him. Because that's what it sounds like. Support for where should we begin comes from Hintwater. Let me ask you.

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2:43Esther PerelIt just goes to show sometimes the right hydration partner changes everything. Try Hint, available at drinkhint.com and in stores nationwide. I'm pretty confident talking into a mic. Hey, I'm doing it right now. But home projects, I second guess everything. Is that noise normal? Is that water damage? And who should I even call?

3:10Esther PerelThat's where Thumbtack comes in. Upload a photo or voice note and their AI-powered search helps diagnose the issue and match you with the right top-rated local pro. Instead of second guessing or searching for hours, you get clarity and can hire the right pro with confidence. For your next home project, try Thumbtack. They know homes. Hire the right pro today. So tell me something. Let's just go a little bit back. How did you come to formulate the question the way you do. What is the history of your relationship that led you to this question? Am I being gaslit or am I overly sensitive? So here's a tendency. So for example, over New Year's, we went away together. We were in the car and I wasn't feeling well. And he just kept on like

4:09Speaker 3shouting at me and kind of giving out to me and telling me that I wasn't being nice to him and he was shouting at me and originally I thought he was kind of joking and I was like yeah I know I am but I was quite premenstrual at the time and I was menstruating and I felt awful so I was just kind of a bit of a commudant and I was like yeah I know I feel bad just let me feel bad I know where I am like this is grand and he just kept on shouting like you're not being nice to me you're not being nice to me oh and We were literally going to our friend's doorstep and he just left me there and was just acted like everything was perfectly normal. And it seems to often be as well with social settings that we'll be going out and he'll do something to pull the rug out from underneath me and be like, what's your problem? Another example is...

5:08Speaker 3I was at therapy and I came back and I wasn't feeling particularly great. You know, we had been talking about boundaries because I do have concerns that on my boundaries aren't very good. And it's something that I work on. What do you mean by that? What do you mean by that? That's a big statement, you know? Yeah. And one in which only you know what you mean by it. Yeah. So...

5:37Speaker 3I know that I don't necessarily know how to put up boundaries. I was in a job before. Basically, I worked myself to a state of very poor health and a lot of that had to do with working with someone who wouldn't let me say no, so no matter how much I was like I'm not available, they just kept on pushing me and also that particular industry in that particular job there was a real need for me there was nobody else to do the job I had to travel and move and I was exhausted but because there was such a need for me I I let myself I suppose but I felt like I didn't have a choice I let myself just get torn into that and away from my life and away from the people that I care about and and eventually I got to a point where I completely

6:37Esther Perelburnt out. And you're telling me this also because in some way something parallel is happening between you and your boyfriend? Yeah, exactly. Right? You are on the verge of burnout. If I ask you, you know, because you say, am I being gaslit or am I overly sensitive? Which of course is what people who are gaslit often end up feeling.

7:05Speaker 3is that they are being overly sensitive, that they are not clear, that they're doubting themselves, that they're confused, that they no longer trust their own sanity. You went to look for the definition of what being gaslit means? I definitely looked it up at some point, but I don't quite remember it at this moment. Without even defining the term,

7:34Esther PerelIf you're telling me I'm in a relationship where I don't trust that what I think has validity, I find myself often saying I feel something and then I'm being blamed for the very thing that I just uttered. The blame is constantly shifting. I am accused of being the gaslighter and then I end up completely confused and it makes me question the situation.

8:02Esther PerelAnd it's like what we call in my field projective identification. You are telling me that I'm doing to you what you're exactly doing to me. I distrust myself. I begin to question my mental health because you keep telling me that my mental health is not steady. Or something happens and you tell me that's not what happened. Or that it is your fault if it happened.

8:30Esther PerelYeah. Or that I'm doing these things and I'm saying these mean things because I actually am trying to help you. Yeah. Or that it's not such a big deal. So what if you're menstruating? That shouldn't explain why you're treating me the way you are or that you're overthinking it or that when I mean I was just joking or that you're too emotional. These are kind of seven common gaslighting phrases. Yeah.

8:56Esther Perelyou know, if any of these are continuously occurring to you, or if you simply, even without that, say, you know, I am constantly questioning myself, I'm constantly doubting myself, I'm constantly in a state of confusion, etc. etc. The answer to your question doesn't really matter. What you know is that this is not a good situation. But the thing is, like, that's the thing is like...

9:28Esther PerelNow you're going to give me the other side. But we also have nice times. But when I'm about to pull away, he apologizes profusely and he promises that he will change, that he's working on it and that this will never be happening again until two hours later. And now you're going to see so back and forth in the ambivalence. You know, here are all these things. But maybe what if what he says has validity and is true?

9:57Esther PerelAnd maybe I am indeed so insecure and maybe I do indeed to have a problem with boundaries, which of course I'm having with him too. And so in the end, maybe he knows me better than I know myself. Yeah. And when I say I'm hungry, he says, no, you're not really hungry. You shouldn't be hungry right now. And I'm beginning to wonder, well, maybe then I'm not hungry. Yeah. That's literally like what happens. I'll be like, oh, let's get some food. And he'll be like, no, no.

10:27Speaker 3I'm like, well, I need something and I'll end up getting like a protein bar, something to tide me over until we're eating. And then he'll be like, oh yeah, by the way, while you went into the shops, get a protein bar, I've got a chicken sandwich. And I'm just like, what? But it's, yeah, it comes from everywhere. It feels very controlling. It's either reality manipulation

11:00Esther Perelscapegoating, coercion, or straight-up lying. Those are probably four of the main gas-lighting tactics. Shifting blames would be another. When you shift the blame is another common tactic. And the interesting thing, as I listen to you, is you have the answer to your question.

11:31Speaker 3every time you give me another example to reinforce that you actually know what's happening. But the thing is that like he has shown me in so many ways that he does love me and he like we have the honestly the best time he's my best friend in the world like I I don't know how to lose him and like that's the thing is like I see him as a really good person I see him as like a really kind and warm and friendly and if you see him with his friends he is incredible like incredible like it's so so confusing exactly again but then he turns around and does that that to me but he honestly that's the thing I'm just like I wish that I could wash it off no a question I would ask him yeah

12:36Speaker 3is who did this to you and nobody stopped them? Who did you see do this in your family and nobody stopped them? I feel like that would be really hard for him and I would be worried about not challenging. I think it would for him something like that would be. But do you know? I'd imagine I have an idea. That's my question. My question is

13:08Esther PerelHe may be a wonderful friend, but that does not dictate how he's going to be with his girlfriend. Those two things don't necessarily always go in sync. I would ask him, where did he learn this? And who did his seed do this? And who never stopped it? And I would then ask you this parallel question. This, of course, is not a question you're going to ask him, but I'm asking that to you, because you probably know him. How long are you together? Two years.

13:40Esther PerelOkay. And then I'm going to ask you, who did you see in such a dynamic? Where did you learn not to be able to say no? Because this is not about, am I being gaslit or am I being overly sensitive? Without defining, you know, without focusing just on these two terms, you've described the reality. And then you say, but he loves me and that may very much be the case as well.

14:09Esther Perelbut he also needs to control you. But he is also intensely insecure and therefore he needs you to be one down. But he also has a hard time hearing you say, I'm hungry without instantly denying it or defying you or qualifying it or deciding if you have a right to be hungry at this moment or not because he knows better than you what your stomach needs. So regardless of how much he loves you, He still would need to learn to differentiate and to be able to let you have an experience and respond caringly and compassionately to it without having to decide if your experience is valid or not before he decides how he wants to respond because he's the master and the judge. Oh my God, yeah. That is...

15:02Speaker 3Qualifying my experience that's it. It's like every single experience I have all of my friendships all of my work. It's like it's being Qualified that's exactly it and like being like you're doing this right and you're doing that wrong It's like being stuck in a box and the thing is that I know that I am Brilliant and I have beautiful friendships and I have I I was excellent at that job and I am excellent at most things that you put in front of me and I feel that really deeply I know what I'm doing and I care about myself and I've had to do a lot of work on myself and I'm continuing to learn and all of you know I'm conscious of where I go up and where I go down but and if you had a friend

16:01Esther PerelSince you have very good friends if one of your friends was in a situation that is similar to yours. What would you say? Just step away It's not it does just doesn't it's not that easy. It just doesn't We're completely entwined in each other's lives as well And then what would you say to your friend? So your friend says it's not that easy We've got our lives completely intertwined with each other I've invested two years of my life here. I know he loves me, but I'm being obliterated. I'm losing my mind. I'm continuously put in a situation where I have to doubt myself. Yeah, I'd be like, I'll take care of you. I don't know. We have to take a brief break. So stay with us. And let's see where this goes. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Quince.

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20:07Speaker 6at odu.com. That's odo.com. Have you spoken with your girlfriends or your friends, period? Yeah, a little bit. I don't like to speak badly about him because they all know him. So I want, you know, to honor the relationship in a way. I've spoken to my sister a bit. And has anybody said keep going? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And then I've...

20:41Speaker 3I had one friend who was like had flagged it early and when she flagged it that was also the time literally the same day when I had the breakdown for work or the day that I got literally a cert from a doctor being like you can't go to work and you can't do that job anymore and I was not sleeping through the night and I was it was

21:12Esther PerelI was literally talking to him about it and he was like, well, I'm thinking about maybe we should break up. So he nearly always, when I'm at a level of peak stress, he'll put something else on top. And then I never went back to work after that. So if you are struggling with something, he will trump you?

21:39Esther PerelIf you bring up a feeling, he'll bring up another one that is eating in that moment is more important than the one you just brought up. Yeah, every single time. So that boundary, when I was talking about that boundaries thing, he flipped. When I was back from the therapist, and I was just like literally standing in the kitchen being like, I just need to eat some dinner. So I was like, right, I'm just going to make myself some food. I'm going to take care of myself when I nourish my body. And I was like,

22:09Speaker 3okay I just need you know I'm a bit weird right now I just need a little bit of space because I love love and then he started at me and I was like no I can't handle this right now I've explained the fact that I'm feeling very vulnerable I'm just like letting you know that and he was in a great mood when I came in and then suddenly he turned and then he started shouting at me and shouting at me And I was like, stop shouting at me. And then he freaked out about me having, me not understanding what a boundary was, me turning my boundaries against him. And then he made me, we had this long discussion about what qualifies shouting or not. And then we literally got into the depths of like, right, what shouting, what the semiotics of the word shouting is to both of us. And then he made me force, he made me.

23:05Esther Perelsay that he hadn't been shouting at me in regard in terms of the way that he understands the word shouting. So you cover all four, right? You cover the coercive strategies, you cover the shifting of the blame, you cover the questioning of your reality, you cover the manipulation, the disqualifying. So you've answered your question. What has made it so difficult for you to know that you have to go or to act on it?

23:36Esther PerelWhere does your challenge come from? In terms of saying no, in terms of saying this is I know I need to do, and I'll deal with the consequences. In fact, I'll be liberated. I'll suddenly realize how much I've been hijacked.

23:53Esther Pereland what kind of a hostage situation this has been, and I will be able to once again liberate myself with my friends, and then my friends are gonna start telling me how they had noticed it, that and the other, and I'm gonna say, how come you never told me, and they'll tell me, we kept trying to tell you, but you couldn't hear it, because you were completely enveloped in this saga. Yeah, it's bizarre. I know that you're right.

24:19Esther PerelI know that. You're brilliant. You know you've answered your questions. You have your answer. This is not a question of discernment. This is a question of you've tried it before. You may try it again. He's going to beg you. He's going to plead you. He's going to be his best self for half an hour. And he may be a perfectly...

24:43Speaker 3good kind person. Yeah. But he's got some things to deal with if he's going to be in a relationship. And so do you. Yeah. Well, yeah, I think that's the thing is like, I'm like, if I've tried so hard, you know, and I'm 35, I've been in enough relationships. And like he genuinely has worked a lot on himself. And I can see how he's come along in like, in a big way.

25:15Esther PerelDo you know what? I don't know what you mean. Because every example you've given shows me somebody who has very little ability to see what he does. And of course, for any gaslighter, there must be a person that is letting themselves be gaslit. These two go together. But there hasn't been a situation where you describe him saying, I realize, I notice, I take responsibility. I'm sorry. I was projecting. I was dumping. He has none of it. Well, he has done that. I mean, when you leave. No, I mean, that's I think that's the thing about we do talk after these things happen. Like I've been listening to you for ever. I never knew that he knew about you and he sent me something.

26:15Speaker 3like one of your YouTube videos about like when couples get to an impasse and he was like let's look at this and let's talk about this based on the tools that are there. And like I really appreciate that. I can see him trying. But the thing is we're actually at a point right now where we're not really speaking and I asked for the keys back from my flat after the

26:49Esther Pereleverything that happened that I've been kind of talking about recently it was too much. I mean that piece of your excusing him and analyzing and justifying and excusing his behavior is part of the gas lit cycle. He's doing this but he doesn't really mean to do this he feels bad about it afterwards and so now I need to make him feel

27:20Speaker 3Better about him making me feel bad. Yeah. Yes Yeah, this is twisted Completely twisted because I was on the phone to him yesterday I wanted to let him know that I was gonna be speaking to you because I thought that was respectful I Also was like look in the long run like I feel like we've been kind of running on kind of my what I want I just want to know what you want and then of course it came back around to how much all of his friends told him that he's great. And then I, of course, was like, well, you're a great person, and I want you to know that you're a good person. And I do think that. But it still comes around to having this treatment, and I still seem to be the person going to him, telling him that he's good. And then I'm the bad guy again. And does that come from him as well? You're a wonderful person? No. I guess you're a lovely person.

28:21Esther PerelYou're a lovely person. Okay. If you are indeed such close friends, and if he's indeed such a wonderful person, then you may want to find this relational structure that will actually highlight that. Being his friend may give you much more of the wonderful qualities that he has than being his girlfriend. At least for right now. So he can stay in your life.

28:51Esther Perelit's not clear that he will. Generally, when that dynamic occurs, it's more common that the person will be more vindictive and not want anything to do with you. They'll try, they'll try, they'll come back, they'll come back until they finally realize that maybe they're not gonna get what they want and then they'll say fuck you. But if he does stay, have him in your life.

29:18Esther Perelbut have him in the structure of relationship that gives you access to the best qualities that he has. If he's such a wonderful friend, be a friend. I love him. That is a wonderful thing, but that doesn't mean you need to make a life in that dynamic. It doesn't change if people don't actively take ownership over what they do.

29:48Esther Perelto create this kind of dynamic, and that means you and him. We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about, so stay with us. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Shopify. If you've been sitting on a business idea, Shopify makes it easy to make it happen. Everything you need to start selling is included and ready for your first customer.

30:20Esther PerelYou'll get tools like Shopify Checkout, which helps more customers finish their purchase. And when they come back, their details are already saved. One tap and they're done. Because when the time comes to make your first sale, you want to make things as easy for your customers as possible. With Shopify handling the setup and checkout, you have more time to focus on your next steps. Whether that's planning your next campaign, developing your newest offering, or taking a well-deserved nap.

30:49Esther PerelAnd Shopify says they power millions of businesses worldwide from household names like Mattel and Gymshar to small businesses just getting started. With Shopify, nothing stands between your idea and a real business. So go make it one. Start your free trial at Shopify.com slash Esther. That's Shopify.com slash Esther. Shopify.com slash Esther.

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32:34Speaker 3in this relationship. But it's really hard to admit that I've let somebody walk all over me and that I haven't been strong enough to tell them to piss off. It makes me question myself so much more. Which is one of the reasons why these dynamics sometimes go on for a long time.

33:09Esther Perelbecause he has his denial. His denial is to shift the blame on you. But you have your denial, which is this isn't really happening. I could walk away at any time. I am a strong woman. I am autonomous. Nobody tells me what to do like that. But in fact, that's not what's happening. So it's one denial meeting another denial, so to speak. Yeah. I hear you. And when you just say, but I love him, So what? I mean, I hear you, it's a deep feeling, but the question remains, and what do you want to do that your feelings of love are mired into a relationship that is ultimately going to make you lose your entire sense of yourself? So you will continue to say, I love him, but the I will have dissolved in the process.

34:12Esther PerelIt's not easy. You're going to surround yourself with friends and you're going to have to be honest with your friends and let them know what's going on. Not by blaming him, but by telling them that you found yourself in a relationship where instead of increasingly becoming bolder and stronger and more recognized, it's all the reverse that is happening. And that's not because of what he does only.

34:42Esther PerelIf on the other end you say I want to do some couples work and I want us to both go and deal with this dynamic, go ahead. It won't change alone. Somebody has to see this in action to be able to intervene. Each of you will make perfect sense when you talk alone to your own respective therapists. Yeah, couples counseling is on the cards right now. We've seen a couples counselor before and it didn't...

35:12Speaker 3She wasn't great. And my concern is that he's gonna charm them. And he's not gonna show the truth is the dynamic when there's another person present. Then you'll put that on the table too. Yeah, yeah. A good clinician sees the invisible and sometimes hears the inaudible.

35:40Esther PerelI mean, thank goodness for you, and thank goodness for the phone call. It's just like clearing the clouds from my brain. Look, I'm going to ask the question again, and we're going to say goodbye, but it is the question that you didn't answer, which is where does your challenge come from? Because you could say, saying no is difficult for me, so I found a person with whom I can practice that muscle. Right.

36:10Esther PerelThese things are a mind fuck. But you may want to say I want to practice my know and I found the best place to do so because there is a person who doesn't hear any of them. So I practice boundaries with somebody who doesn't respect any of them or sees them all as an attack on him or sees them as a weakness of mine, but they're all qualified. Or you may say that doesn't have to be the way I'm looking for a relationship.

36:40Speaker 3I know you're 35 and I know that you love him and I know that you think you've had your share. But maybe that should bring you also a level of awareness that says, this is how I want to live. But I think that's the thing. It's like I don't know how I'll have a healthy and wholesome relationship. I just keep on seem to get

37:12Esther Perellike battered or something. Why me, smart, accomplished, professional, insightful, autonomous woman find myself in relationships with men where I end up in this kind of battered position? That is a very powerful question. Yeah. And how do I learn to seed sooner rather than later? Yeah. And how do I say, I'm breaking the cycle and then act on it. Is this a good place to stop? In my head, I'm only just beginning. Because I'm leaving you with some big questions rather than slap answers. Because you have the answer. To the question that you came with, you know the answer before you came. So what is the cycle that you are repeating? We didn't get to, but...

38:17Esther Perelwe suspect there is one because this is not your first time. Different melodies for the same dance. If we were seeing each other regularly, this would be the moment where I say to be continued. But it will be continued but without me. But I'm inviting you to take this and do something with it. I will. Thank you. Okay. Thank you very much.

38:51Esther PerelThis was a classic Estair calling, a one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Estair that could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call, send her a voice message and Estair might just call you. Send your questions to producer at estairporel.com. Where should we begin with Estair Porel is produced by Magnificent Noise.

39:18Esther PerelWe're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhe, Kristen Mahler, and Julian At. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin, are Esther Parrell and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.

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