Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - Twice Married, To Each Other

0:00This week we have another request for your stories. This time it's around the idea of ghosting. A stare is wondering if maybe we've just gotten a little too comfortable ghosting each other and not just in dating. We ignore texts, we cancel plans, we let friendships fade. We sometimes just stop showing up. Are we being rude or do we expect too much from each other? And when do we owe someone something like an explanation?

0:31And when is it okay to just walk away? If you have a question for a stare around ghosting, write to us. Send your question or your story to producer at estherporel.com. What you are about to hear is a classic session of where should we begin with Estherporel? None of the voices in the series are ongoing patients of Estherporels. And each episode is a one-time counseling session.

1:07For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed. But their voices and their stories are real. Running a business shouldn't feel like surviving a software group project. One after accounting, another for inventory, another for sales, and somehow, none of them talk to each other. That's where OTU comes in. An all-in-one business management software that brings every part of your business together. From sales and accounting to inventory and marketing, all-in-one powerful platform.

1:42No messy integrations, no bouncing between tabs, and best of all, no spreadsheets. Stop managing software and start managing your business with one unified system. Try for free today at odu.com slash vox. That's oduo.com slash vox. I'm Nina Garten, and each week on Happy Hour, I invite new and old friends for a drink and a fun conversation at my kitchen table in New York City. On this week's episode, I'm joined by Chloe Mal. We talk all about her taking on the top job at Vogue.

2:17finding her personal style and her favorite lunch order in the iconic Condi Nast cafeteria. New episodes of Happy Hour are available every Wednesday. You can watch on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcasts. Cheers! I don't really know where it began. It's such a toward love story, just the back and forth. They've been married to each other, not once.

2:58but twice. We ended up married in 2008 and then divorced in 2010 and we ended up finding ourselves back together again just eight months later and we got remarried and we've been really trying to nail down this relationship thing since then and it's just been difficult. It's an emotional struggle and I just wish it wasn't so hard.

3:26and always feeling like I'm walking on eggshells, walking on glass. She came into the marriage with her two children, and they had two more together, four in total. So it's a lot of go-go-go lately. I've been trying desperately to get my husband to just do more in the relationship. I want arguments to come with joint solutions.

3:54not only solved by the unilateral actions of one person. Most recently I asked him to close his closet door because the cat had gotten in there and he told me nobody likes me. Anytime I suggest that he could take responsibility for something that he's done, it's turned around and it's made about me or my inadequacies.

4:22I don't want to ask him to do anything because I'm afraid of what he'll say. You know, I can be reactionary and defensive, but I don't want my kids thinking that the way to deal with conflict is my wife ignoring me for two plus weeks on a time because she got angry at me and couldn't handle it, and I don't know how to make it better. It is terrified, and I can't really shake that feeling.

4:52It seems so silly because it's just words, right? It's just words that you say, but they hurt. And I want to be able to communicate to him in a way that doesn't pique his fears either. They've asked for a session because they have not stopped fighting. They fight over chores. They fight over domestic wars. Who can tell who what to do? And that's what they think they're coming for. Tell me a little bit.

5:28If your relationship told its story, what story would it tell me? Where does it start? Well, we were... I was 22. It was 2006. We met on my space. Actually, it was, I guess, the millennials' tender. I had just...

5:55separated, and was in the middle of a divorce with my ex, who was the father of my first two children, my older two. And he reached out to me as his pseudonym, Jack Rockstar. Jack Rockstar contacted me. Yes, I did. I was using it to meet girls because I had enlisted.

6:18and I was looking for some fun before I left. Nothing serious. Before you left. Before I left to join the military. Nothing serious, nothing keeping me down. Just a couple of flings and have fun and move on. Okay, so two people meet online with the stated purpose of just having light fun. Yes. And some good recreational sex. Yes. And then...

6:46I don't know what happened. We went out on our first date. I guess I somehow made an impression. She was intriguing, right? I came from a very, I'd say a very cloistered, very clannish kind of family. Oldest of three boys and sort of the...

7:12black sheep of my family. I'm the one who left. I'm the one who went away, carved my own past. What was it that made you want to leave the clan? I wanted to be my own person, right? I didn't really feel like I could be my own person in my clan because it's very patriarchal. And so my dad is the head of the clan.

7:43Right. And your dad has the authority. And my dad is the authority. And he makes other people do according to his will. Yes. And that's when you hone your chops. I would say that I would model after that, yeah. And I just didn't... I wanted to do my own thing. I wanted to live my own life. Even that decision was co-opted by my parents because, you know, my dad gave me a call and he was like, man, I'm really...

8:11a couple years later. I'm really impressed. She went off and did your own thing. You know, when I was young, I went off and I did my own thing. You're just like me. And how does that land on you? It's like being choked, right? And... And it strangles me, and when it strangles me, I want to. I just want to get out. I can't get from under his clutch. Yeah, I just... So it's funny because...

8:52One of the first things that we both recognized was how much my family did not approve of her at all. When someone is talking about how they needed to run away from their family because they were choking, because it felt so suffocating or oppressive, and they could proceed with a sentence that starts with, it's funny.

9:27What follows is really funny. What follows is an illustration of his rebelliousness. Here I was falling for a woman that was nothing my family would approve. Now I could begin to think that I'm living my own life. And the issue was race, age, culture, religion.

9:59The wrong side of the tracks was what my dad said. I think it was always about the class, like his dad ran his own company, things like that. And my mom was, she was a drug addict and an alcoholic. And, you know, we grew up with just my mom and my two brothers and we grew up in poverty. If it wasn't for my mom's social security and disability and...

10:26her widower's benefits and then death benefits from my dad passing, we wouldn't have had any income. She couldn't hold a job. So it was homeless shelters sometimes. It was moving from place to place because we were evicted. So we were moving like every year. We were in a different place, different schools. His father did not approve. He never really approved of that.

10:51Even now, I feel like they've just convinced themselves that I'm not the same person that he met, that I'm someone else. He has civilized you. He has civilized me, yes. At this moment, I'm going back and forth. I'm highlighting the hidden communality and the specificity of each. So, back to his father now. You know, I listen to you, and I'm really touched, you know, it's like, I see you organized by your defiance. Your defiance drives you. Nobody will tell me what to do. Started with your father, who I am imagining in order to get his will across, was ready to use all kinds of means. You know, it's interesting. Emotional manipulation came from my mom. My mom of the two is the more emotionally manipulative. My father

12:00just knows how I think to, I think they make a very good pair. I think they work very well together. I think that is a good way of putting it, I suppose. How did he get his will across to his three sons? How did he establish his authority? I mean, a lot of lectures, there was, and it's odd. And they start with son? Yeah, right? What are you gonna do with your life, right?

12:31Where are you going? You're not thinking things through. That's not the way that I raised you. You have a responsibility. You have a duty. You're the oldest. And therefore, you have to set the example for your brothers. You have to be that paragon of what I want you to be, right? And so it was a lot of sitting around. So while he's talking to you, and you're feeling that pressure on your chest and on your throat, because he's ramping it down your throat.

13:02He's not just using words. He's not just lecturing. He's doing some the more things that you experience in that moment and somebody says what are you doing with your life? You are embarrassing us. Yes as a big piece. You're embarrassing us, right? Right. You're not living up to your to my expectation. You're not making me proud. Right. I feel content for you.

13:42And I humiliate you. And I instill doubt in you that you'll ever do anything. And part of you says, I'll show you. Yeah, absolutely. And part of you wonders, will I succeed at it? But you can't even allow yourself to have that doubt because the drive of the defiance burns you. Yeah, I think that's pretty accurate. As he repeats the words of his father with his hand on his chest, and his throat. It's as if his body is remembering, re-experiencing in that very moment, the choking sensation, the belittlement, the humiliation that he used to feel. And so when I add a few of those sentences, he just says, yes, that too, that too. And his lips are quivering and the tears appear in his eyes. They don't stream yet because behind the rage,

14:53There often are tears. Have you ever thought of how similar the two of you are? Both of you needed to leave in order to have a chance at creating your own story, your own life. So you leave your drug-addicted mother, you leave the chaos, you leave probably children who needed to attend to everything. Are you the youngest or the oldest?

15:37You're the oldest, too. You must be the oldest. I am. You are the oldest, right? So both of you are the oldest. And in some version, you raised your younger siblings, because they looked at you. And you probably raised them more concretely. If she wasn't getting up, you had to get up. Yeah. Right? Yeah.

16:02The first thing that jumps at me is that the two of you had to run away or leave, or leave not just in the physical way. Leave so that you could begin to create your own story. And then he puts you down. When you fail, it's your fault. When you succeed, it's because of him. You own nothing. And somehow I think that that's part of why the two of you fight.

16:33It's all right there. When you fight with her, you fight with that defiant drive with which you fought him. And you confuse the people. But you have so honed your own protective mechanism. And here you meet her and when you say they don't like her and so that reinforces your defiance even more. But when you say I want you and she actually welcomes it.

17:05That is like irresistible Irresistible psychologically irresistible. I'm not talking just sexually but if she wants you sexually That too then is kind of the antidote to the shame because that will establish that masculinity which he was like siphoning out of you and then I'm imagining that she was very encouraging for the things that you wanted to do Yeah. I think for the first time in my life, I was able to talk things that I was interested in and that I wanted to do. That's right. So when she encourages you in the things you want to pursue, you can welcome it because she's able to tell you, go do this, and you know that it's for you and not for her. But when she asks you, come help me with home, you can't hear that.

18:12And all you hear is that it's for her, and then the button is immediately pushed, and off you go, nobody's gonna tell me what to do. That's what I was thinking of when I asked him to pick up his shoes. Okay. Okay? That's a lot on him. I don't know. I don't know.

18:43It's a thought, and we're going to explore it together. It's not like I know, but I see the way that your whole body changes if she says, move your shoes or whatever. I mean, I'm just picking up the one that she just mentioned. And then both of you, then you will tell me what you do, what happens. Well, I was just thinking that that's a really fascinating perspective because there are times where I am all for it. I'm saying, you know, go. Go do what you need to do to excel in your field, to excel in your passion, what you're interested in and your profession, and if he doesn't receive it that way. It's not that easy. It feels like you struggle to really hear that you have that freedom. Just the fact that she says, could do your thing. How does that land on you? Oh, no, no.

19:44No, what? No, don't go do your thing. Really? Yeah. That's what I met with. So he says, I really want to do this. This would be... He tells me... Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I get it. I get it. I get it. As the conversation unfolds, they discuss a different situation. In this one, he wants to make a change professionally. And she's all for it. She's right behind him and she supports him. And he's at a loss.

20:16he knows better how to react to someone who says no than how to react to someone who says yes. When somebody says no, the defiance fills him up with a false sense of confidence. But when someone says yes, it makes room for his insecurities, his uncertainties, his doubts, his questions to actually come out.

20:46And that brings a whole other wrinkle to their relationship. I want him to know that I hear him as well and that I see him and that whenever I say those things where I say, I want you to go do the thing or have the thing that you want, it's not glib, but that I had pure confidence in the both of us to navigate that together if that's what he wanted to do. Whatever it is. That terrifies me. That terrifies me. Oh my God.

21:18Confidence is tiring, right? I'm constantly plagued by self-doubt. Oh my God. So when you say, I have the supreme confidence, wow. Like what if I'm wrong? And I mean, like don't get me wrong, I know that you are very, very capable of telling me that I'm wrong, right? But what if I am? What if I'm making the wrong decision for us? Then we can figure that out too.

21:46navigated so much. You don't need to convince him right now, because he's actually honest in a way that he's not often. Because that self-doubt is what crept under his skin all the while he was being defiant. And defiance is a certain type of confidence, but it's not really confidence. Because confidence, as my very dear friend Terry Reel has taught me, is the ability to see yourself as a flawed individual and then still hold yourself in high regard. I hear you. When she says, go for it, you say, I'm scared because when your dad would say, you can't do this, you had to say, yes, I can. And you had to stifle all the fears. When she says, go for it, it actually allows the full person

22:52to respond, the one that wants and the one that's afraid. When you say go for it, and he starts to reason or to basically express his reservations, his concerns, his doubts, etc., it's actually a very good thing. Because he could never express any of these things since he had to be ultimately sure because that's the only way he could stand up to his dad. His defiance has given him a false sense of confidence.

23:28And his self-doubt is his hidden truth. We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us. Support for where should we begin comes from article. The most stylish homes aren't built around the latest trends. They come together over time with thoughtfully chosen pieces that reflect your personality and will feel like you for years to come.

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24:34with options for professional assembly if you prefer a hands-off experience. Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. To claim, visit article.com slash begin and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout. That's article.com slash begin for $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. Support for where should we begin comes from Shopify. If you have an idea for a business, The first step can be the hardest one to take. Shopify makes it easier. Shopify's pre-built website themes and AI site builder make it easy to launch a beautiful, professional-looking store without ever touching a line of code. Shopify's mobile app lets you run your store from anywhere, from tracking inventory to customer support to handling payments and more. You also get your own AI e-commerce expert, Sidekick.

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26:03Go to Shopify.com slash Esther today to hear your first... Support for Where Should We Begin comes from MIDI Health. What's happening inside your own body is incredibly personal, almost by definition. But how you respond and react to internal changes can have an outward effect on those closest to you. When your body is changing, it's understandable that your relationships can change too. And menopause and the symptoms that accompany it is no different.

26:34Many of the conversations around menopause in my office center around the experience of the loss of libido. Spontaneous arousal with a feeling that many women describe as flatness or numbness or dullness or changes in orgasm or changes in responsiveness.

26:54How to stay connected to one's own erotic self while transitioning from perimenopause into menopause is a conversation to be had both with professionals and with our partners.

27:07And with MIDI, you can connect with a clinician who understands these symptoms and can help you find the treatment that you need. Built by women who've been there themselves, MIDI is virtual care exclusively for women's hormonal health, and yes, it is covered by most major insurance plans. MIDI is here to help women feel seen, heard, and finally get a treatment that actually helps.

27:29Your symptoms have answers. Visit joinmedie.com right now to book your first visit today. That's joinmedie.com to book your first visit. Joinmedie.com. Insurance coverage varies. Check with your plan for coverage. Earlier on, he mentioned that while his relationship with his dad was very challenging, the emotional manipulation came from his mom. You know, it's interesting.

28:02My mom of the two is the more emotionally manipulative so think it's time to inquire about his relationship with her as well, okay? my mom falls in line with my dad and They're very much on the same page is really good at guilting that disapproving like that all came from her the emotional guilt came from her a lot of crying Like I I was letting my mom. I was hurting my mom I wasn't hurting my dad. I was letting my dad down, but I was hurting my mom I would always ask him like what it was like growing up like, you know You know what she like and he was like, I don't I don't know I just remember her crying a lot in my teenage years Hit I from what I remember him telling me is dad was the one that was saying look you you made your mother cry right like Why are you making your mother cry like this? so

29:03You tell me, you both have a lot of insight about the original story. And so this for both of you lets you know very much what are your triggers. The fact that you disagree on all kinds of things is utterly irrelevant. If you experience it as I'm a disappointment, I'm inadequate, I'm being told what to do.

29:41I'm being told I'm not good enough. I'm being scrutinized. I'm being monitored. That's what you're going to be fighting about. And if he doesn't respond and he doesn't collaborate with you and you feel like you're talking to the wind, then the trigger is going to be, I'm always alone. I've always been alone. Nobody's there for me. It's all on me. How am I going to do this? I can't handle this anymore. I don't know how she does it. It's really spot on.

30:21Okay. So, so what do we do? The first and foremost thing you're going to do is not to talk about what you think is the issue. As in the task or the chores or the, you know, do yourselves a favor and really repeat what you just heard and actually repeat it in your own words first before we go into what do we do? Because this is what you're triggered by, and this is what you're fighting. And you're fighting it with the same passion that you were at home. So put in your words, what's the voice that fights? The voice that fights, in my own head, what I'm fighting against is shame and adequacy.

31:30being told what I have to do and and not having my own say that it's a lack of Autonomy it's taking away Right. It's it's taking a part of me away and demanding that I they do something else if I could hear what goes in the ears How dare you how dare you how dare you tell me what to do like you don't you that's not your place and what do you hear her say? Give me a line Most recently, he was blaming our five-year-old for leaving the bedroom door open, and the cat got in and used his closet as a litter box. And I said, well, but you could keep your closet door closed, and that might be helpful. But that's not, okay. That's enough. You don't get, no, that doesn't make any sense. No, what did, I want to hear what he, that's, ugh. Why are you putting this on me? Yeah, why are you putting this on me? This has nothing to do with me. Like, that's not helpful.

32:29is not helpful. And now, now, now I'm angry about it because you're trying to blame me for something that, like, why are you getting in my face about it? That's what I'm hearing. Right? Right. You know, you think you're talking about a litter box and a cat. Yes, there's no cat in his story. There's no cat in his story. There's no cat in his story. But of course, he doesn't say that in the moment. In the moment, he says something about the cat. Oh, that was when he said nobody likes you. That's what I said, nobody likes you.

33:01Ah, okay. He went straight. He went straight to it. He went straight to it. So he went into the part of him that felt belittled and ashamed, and his protection mode is then to say, you're not lovable. Yeah. And what do you do when he says that? You have a comeback? No, I just didn't. I told him that was very mean and hurtful, and then I didn't talk to him for two weeks. Oh, that's a comeback. Which, by the way, that was a really shitty thing of me to say.

33:30And I'm really sorry. You've told me a few times. I know. Thank you. I hold you in way higher regard than that. And I love you. So it's completely untrue. And bullshit. And I was angry and I'm sorry. Don't forgive you. Okay. And I know a lot of the times, like, it sounds like we're just arguing about mundane things, but those mundane things add up for both of us.

33:58And if it's a trigger, when we're constantly triggering each other, that's every day, another thing and another thing. And it's death by a thousand cuts. No, it's every day the same thing. Every day the same thing, right? But it may be in a different trapping, but it's the same thing. And that's why you're not going to stay on the things that you argue about, but you're going to help each other by recognizing what was just a little step on a wood. Yeah. Yeah. They are convinced that they fight about a lot of different things. But what becomes very clear is that in fact they mostly fight about the same thing over and over again. He goes to his childhood and experiences again the sense of inadequacy and incompetence and disappointment. And she experiences the aloneness and the burdens

35:07that were put upon her as a child. Most of their arguments are about that. It's not about the cat, it's about their vulnerabilities and their deep-seated wounds and fears. And this translation from the supposed issues to the feelings and the emotions that live inside of us is a major transition for many couples. It becomes the place from which empathy, compassion, and understanding for themselves and for each other can rise. We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about, so stay with us. Running a business shouldn't feel like surviving a software group project. One after accounting, another for inventory, another for sales, and somehow, none of them talk to each other.

36:14That's where Auto comes in. An all-in-one business management software that brings every part of your business together. From sales and accounting to inventory and marketing, all-in-one powerful platform. No messy integrations, no bouncing between tabs, and best of all, no spreadsheets. Stop managing software and start managing your business with one unified system. Try for free today at odoo.com slash vox. That's odoo.com slash vox.

36:41Are you tired of hearing about business, tech, and finance from the bros? We are the Tiger Sisters, a top business podcast with the Vox Media Podcast Network. Tiger Sisters releases every Monday and we decode money.

36:54power and love. And who doesn't love all those things? We are the Internet's Wall Street and Silicon Valley big sisters. Tune in every Monday for late night sister talk meets boardroom strategy. Check out Tiger sisters on YouTube, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the Tiger fam. Support for where should we begin comes from MIDI health. Sometimes we chase treatments for symptoms that seem unrelated. Headaches, fatigue, insomnia.

37:23But when you're going through perimenopause and menopause, they're often part of the same hormonal story. And you don't have to quietly push through. MIDI can help. MIDI helps women connect to clinicians who can actually connect the dots to help make sense of what you're going through. That way, you can clear out the separate what's going on with me, Google searchers, and get real expert advice in one place.

37:45Built by women who've been there themselves, MIDI is virtual care exclusively for women's hormonal health, and it's covered by most insurance plans. You don't have to let your symptoms become the new normal. MIDI can help you feel seen, be heard, and finally get the treatment that actually helps. Your symptoms have answers. Visit joinmidi.com right now to book your first visit today. That's joinmidi.com to book your first visit.

38:12Join me d.com. Insurance coverage varies. Check with your plan for coverage. So when the two of you fight, your bodies may be in this room, but your memories, your nervous systems are hijacked. You fight about our core vulnerabilities. You know, when you argue, do one now. Pick one, one of your arguments.

39:00The Chordchart. Okay. We're role playing one of our arguments now. Yes, yes, yes. Awesome. I just want to... It's hard to get in, but you will see once the triggers go, you just... Just let us... Yes, it's a fantastic flicker. So, in doing the Chordchart, we wanted to have the teenagers...

39:28I know what we wanted to do. Okay. So we wanted to create a chore chart. So there was routine and structure and discipline. Right. So the teens could earn their allowance and learn some discipline on their own. Right. And then you went and did it by yourself? Well, the conversation was I had created the chore chart and there was a cycle.

39:56and everyone had their two chores every night, and that you were not fulfilling yours routinely. The challenge for me here, the problem that I have is that you made the chore chart up, you buy yourself, you put it behind this, I'm not gonna say a paywall, but you're the only one who could edit it. You were the one who decided the criteria that went into it. I didn't have any input into the process whatsoever. And so, I tried, and I'm very bad at it, and I got angry about it, and then I just stopped. But I didn't stop on purpose. I just, I'm exhausted by the end of the day. And then, and then, then you took me off the chore chart without talking to me about it first. You just went and did it. And then when I came to you and said, hey, maybe a compromise, maybe I can,

40:50I can get some buy-in back with the kids and build some trust with them. Then you went and accused me of trying to like circumvent the entire thing because I just couldn't hold to doing chores every day when I came with a compromise for you. So I didn't feel, I don't feel like I've got any input at all, none. You just made it all up and you're running the show by yourself because that's what you want to do. Okay, so that was a lot. Yeah. Because I'd sent you the chart. You actually had the editable version beforehand, before I published it to Google Docs and shared it with the teens. You had it. Okay. You're about to go into the item and the chart and why you did what you did. Yes. You could do that. But I can spare you that and let you know upfront.

41:52it's predictably going to land in the bad place. So everything he just said was about how he hated not being able to fulfill the expectation. And he didn't particularly like the fact that the expectations were mandated to him without being involved. And because he felt, I'm at the twirl of your finger and you're going to do with me whatever you want. He already told you This is a stricter. I'm made to feel dumb, inadequate, and now on top of it I'm embarrassed in front of my kids. So there are two levels. There's a lot of levels. The first one is there is something that if people argue while they actually touch each other, the arguments completely change. And since touch is extremely potent,

43:00and in a good way for both of you, you have got to use it. That same speech you just did, or the one you're about to do, when you actually put your hand on the knee or the shoulder or the lap, something different will happen. I like this plan. I do not. But I understand. Like, okay. Okay. You're good. I feel like I said my piece and we should...

43:41Should we allow you to... Okay. Okay, so what I'm hearing you say is that you don't want to feel embarrassed or inadequate to the teens. I think it's more than that, right? I want us to make these decisions, not even make them together, but figure out a way to make them together. Okay. Right.

44:23Did you notice a difference in your body? Do you notice a difference? I mean, I don't feel like Right right right like tight. Yeah. Yeah, that's it I'm still sort of talking about I want to talk about of course the argument stays an argument You're allowed to argue and you're allowed to disagree and you're allowed to fight and you're allowed to be angry change comes with anger, but What you both do is different? Yeah You see, she makes decisions alone because that's what she learned. Not because she's intentionally trying to put you on the side. But when there's a big issue, the first person she turns to is herself. Yes. And you who admire how well she can make all of these decisions alone. Sure. As long as it doesn't make you feel excluded and diminished by it.

45:31Your experience is no longer, oh, I admire this woman who can handle all these complicated things. It suddenly becomes, this woman is putting me down. She doesn't think I'm competent. Herself's reliance is my incompetence. Interesting. And to want to go on the record is saying, that I admire your self-reliance and autonomy. Yes, but on occasion it makes me feel like an idiot. Yes, it does, of course. And at those moments, I'm hurt. But it doesn't have anything to do with you at the same time. It doesn't have anything to do with you. But you're hurt. Of course. But I'm hurt. But it hurts. It hurts because who wouldn't want to be able to be on the same team as someone like you?

46:34Because I admire you. I want to be on the team with you. Yeah, absolutely. I'm lucky. And I know that. And I want you to know that. And I want you to... I don't just be like, I want you to know that, that I'm lucky. But I want you to know that. You know what I mean? Feel it. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. I don't know. I just...

47:13I want you to feel lucky that you're on mine. I feel very lucky. Part of being on the same team isn't just, hey, we're gonna do awesome things together, but to me it's also, hey, can you be understanding when I don't know what's going on or I need help or I don't get it the first time? It's part of it, I think. And when you...

47:49think he is thin-skinned or you need to walk on eggshells because you can't tell him anything. You have to remember everything he just said. Yeah I do. There's another piece of research I find very interesting and it may be good for you too because indeed you know your bodies have another language that is reserved for good times that your words don't always match and that is it's lay down on the floor both of you.

48:23Like, lay down on it? Yeah. Okay. Okay. And lay down next to her. Now, try to have a fight now. I don't think I can. This is weird. Right. Okay. See if you can. Um, the chore chart. What about it? Can we work on it?

49:02No, I said a fight. I'm crying. You see, it's very hard. It's completely disarming. It's just not. And the bodies won't let you. A fighting body cannot lie flat. A body that is in an argument. You gotta pace and walk. Cannot be lying flat. So when you go and you escalate, lay down. And if you can lay down, even while your kids are in the room, because you'll start to laugh, and you'll tell them that shrink we met gave us this bizarre piece of research. It will count everybody. It will diffuse it. You cannot continue the screaming match when you're lying. I mean, that's fair. And most of the time, you really need to know your screaming match will not relate you to anything. I feel like I'm going to be lying down. You just say, let's fight lying down.

50:07Let's continue our fight lying down. See what happens. I think even saying it is, like, in a way, it disarms the conversation. Even just thinking about the concept of laying down, I can't imagine that would... It wouldn't make things worse, that's for sure. I mean, I don't know. I'm skeptical.

50:35I mean, what would you do if we were in a fight and I just laid down? I'm not thinking about if we're in a fight and you lay down, because I'm just gonna lay down with you. The thing about what happens when I lay down and you just walk away. Well, I think that's the commitment that I have to make. Right. And that's on me. That's not on you. Okay, that's fair. Hmm. Say more about this. That you would be laying down and that she... I think what I meant is like...

51:13Her natural reaction and when we get into fights and when we start escalating, when she mentioned she didn't talk to me for two weeks. This is not like an in common occurrence, right? When we argue, there is the fight and then there is no more fighting. It's all silence. Silence. And how do you come back? I usually tell him that I'm ready to talk and... And do you hear the voice that controls...

51:48The stonewalling says what? It depends. It depends on the magnitude of the fight. Sometimes it's, should you leave before he does? Or, you know, at some point, at some point he's going to get tired of this. At some point it's going to hit a threshold. And it's always a little self-deprecating. It's rooted in worthiness, worthlessness.

52:31So, you know, you weren't deserving to begin with. Why is he still here? You know, it's gonna hit a point. It's always gonna hit a point. That's constantly in the back of my head. And that has nothing to do with him. I just had a thought. Okay. That is exactly in the same register as the Dutch. Okay. See, you stonewalled him. You are thinking...

53:06I don't know how to come out of this. This is where I've always gone to protect myself. I'm in my bunker, but he's not going to last because he's going to leave. So now I'm trapped between staying in my bunker because it's safer and then being afraid that if I stay in my bunker, he's going to go. Meanwhile, he thinks he's being punished and he's being excluded. And so each one of you goes to those places and it would be wonderful if when she stonewalls you and she gives you the silent treatment, you got a costume.

53:36And basically came in exactly with that laughter that you have here. Whoever you like to be. Do you have any fantasies you can play out at that moment? Do you have any of these characters that you would love to be surprised by? But you see, the more you are afraid and the more she thinks he's not going to be able to take this anymore. And the more she thinks he's going to leave me and the longer her silence. It's a crazy thing.

54:08spot on it's exactly yeah, I mean she's in a knowing situation and to that point like My default way of dealing with it is being like okay. That's right. See you later That's right. So now it's two people pretending that they can do without the other and they don't need the other fuck you you If you can't because she's too trapped to do anything at first. She has no flexibility. Yeah, but if you can remember anything from here. And just remember, this is the time to go freaking get your costume. Got it. Your mask. It's very good a mask. So it's just, you're saying that the act of showing my own vulnerability, like just being vulnerable and open? The act of not being scared about it. Like, I'm not at the mercy of this and how many days am I gonna sit in the jail? Okay. You have a key to the jail. Get out.

55:08She's trapped. You have to know that she would love to be released. But that coping style that she perfected over years is the leader at that moment. What kind of character do you like? Oh, it doesn't matter. It's going to be crazy. I'm getting a banana costume. I'm doing all kinds of stuff. Great. Don't tell her anything up front. Of course not.

55:40So you know it's not going to be a banana costume. But you got it. I got it. It's got to be the most disruptive, discontinuous, nothing to do with nothing. Oh, I'm good at being disruptive. OK. Have fun is what I'm saying to you. Yes. Have fun. Yeah. So costume, lying flat, touching as you fight. To give you a sense of being able to control the way you fight.

56:16not what you fight about. So you let me know? Yeah. Oh, absolutely. We'd love for you to write to me within two weeks. Two weeks. Okay. Yeah. I'm going to be doing some shopping for some sexy costumes. I just hope he doesn't find my box of lingerie. The letters they sent were very encouraging. And one of the things she writes is that Something changed about the way I thought about our differences. Having some knowledge about the various psychological constructs that impacted our reactions were never framed in such a way that resonated deeply with me. But this time it has softened me in a sudden and unexpected way. Seeing the true vulnerability in my husband changed how I hear his reactions.

57:29and experienced a more difficult part of his personality. It gives me a new perspective to take into my responses and reactions to him as well. I suppose it was the kick in the teeth that I desperately needed along with some much needed insight and perspective. His letter was also very important for me to read because he had been very reluctant to join his wife for the session.

57:59he was a self-proclaimed skeptic. And his opening sentence of the letter said just as such, as always, even coming out of the session, I remain a skeptic. But one thing we definitely took away was having actual conversations with each other. There have been a couple of times when it looked like things could flare up, but they immediately died out and withered. In one of those instances, I initiated the touching.

58:30that was recommended in the session and it killed an argument immediately. I will say that as a result, our five-year-old, who is very emotionally attuned to us, has become way more manageable and agreeable recently. On my end, I'm still struggling with the notion that I have to find novel ways to help my wife come out of dark places when we hit rough patches. And to be vulnerable when I feel vulnerable.

59:05That is still all a work in progress. I was touched by what I read because it was a lot of takeaways for a one-time three-hour session. You just heard a classic session of where should we begin with Esther Perrell. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. To apply with your partner for a session on the podcast, for the transcripts or show notes on each episode, Or to sign up for Esther's monthly newsletter, go to estherporel.com. Esther Perel is the author of Mating and Captivity in the State of Affairs. She also created a game of stories called Where Should We Begin? For details, go to her website estherporel.com.