Women at Work - Advice for Less Than Optimal Circumstances

0:02You're listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. I'm Amy Gallo. And I'm Amy Bernstein. It's tough enough to manage ourselves and others while trying to navigate the emotional ups and downs of this crisis. Every day it seems as if work presents me with something new or unexpected or difficult.

0:24And for me, talking through that thing, whatever it is, with a couple of people who I trust, who I know have my back, gives me the perspective I need to better deal with it. So today, we're your couple of people. We're spending this time talking through some sticky situations that listeners have emailed us about recently. These are problems and solutions we can all learn from. Joining us is Allison Beard. Allison co-hosts two shows.

0:54IdeaCast, where she interviews leaders in business and management. And DearHBR, where she and our colleague Dan McGinn talk through people's workplace dilemmas with the help of experts. Quick note here, Allison had some trouble with her microphone, so her sound was a little rough in the first half of our conversation. Hi guys, it's great to be here. Yeah, I'm excited to hear your perspective on some of these questions, Allison. I'm always curious to hear your perspective on thorny workplace issues. So this is fun. Thanks.

1:25Yeah, I'm really excited about it, too. There are some great dilemmas to dig into. Our first question comes from a listener dealing with work colleagues who don't have kids and assume that quarantine is a great opportunity to learn all sorts of new skills and get even more work done. One colleague, I know, pause to laugh out loud. One colleague, and I'm quoting here, colleague mentioned recently that people with kids should work at night during this pandemic to make up for the interruptions throughout the day. She continues, I feel certain colleagues lack empathy and now during the pandemic, this sort of behavior is making me uncomfortable. What do you guys think of that? Yeah, I am a little flabbergasted actually. First of all, I think.

2:19A lot of working parents are already working at night to make up for the interruptions that they're facing throughout the day. But what we expect from our colleagues is empathy and understanding. So I really feel for the woman writing this letter, and I hope we can help her. I think we can. My first point of advice would be to find allies, right? Surely there are other working parents in our organization who feel the same way she does, and I think...

2:45It helps to talk, right? It helps to talk out these issues with other people. As long as you don't seem like you're complaining about this colleague in particular, but more just taking everyone's temperature. Yeah. And you might also get some tips on how other colleagues have dealt with this particular person who's making these comments or other people who've been making these comments. Well, the only thing I'd add is that someone should talk to this colleague. Yeah. Yeah, I think the second step for our letter writer would be to talk to her manager about setting the right tone. And it doesn't have to be in an accusatory way, but something along the lines of, hey, it'd be really helpful for me if you just talk to the whole team about how expectations are different now. And also, I mean, if she does need to have her deliverables changed or her schedule reset, that's something to talk with her manager about, too, and then be fully communicated to the team.

3:44you know you could see the boss coming away from that conversation having an all-hands meeting to say like hey everyone's going to be working flexible hours now some people are going to be working reduced hours everyone's doing their best to get the work done but we're going to all need to be flexible here and we're going to all need to be empathetic and we're all going to need to help each other out and hopefully in an indirect way that would change the behavior of this Colleague and if it doesn't then it merits a direct conversation. Yeah, I absolutely agree with that. I mean I usually assume that people who are this tone deaf Don't understand how tone deaf they are and so I think a conversation in which you say do you understand How this sounds to people and particularly to the parents that we work with

4:39Do you think that our letter writer could have that conversation herself or should it come from a third party? Well, I mean, I think we do know it's harder when you are the group that's Experiencing the bias it's harder to point out the bias people discredit your perspective a little bit So I think it's better if it comes from someone who maybe has some authority over this person or at least some influence. But that's not to say that she shouldn't bring it up. It sounds like the accusations or the insinuations have been directed at groups of parents, not necessarily directly at her. And she could, she could counter that with some, you know, we're doing, we're all doing the best we can. Or well, I know for me personally, I do my best work when I've slept. So it doesn't really make sense for me to stay up late and crank through work. I think there's ways in which as long as she's feeling like she's not going to dig into it too much with him, that she could counter some of that a little bit with more positive messages about what it's like to be a working parent right now.

5:41One other point that I would make on communication, and this is some advice that Daisy Waidman Dowling, one of our authors who runs a consultancy for working parents, gives is to overcommunicate what your schedule is going to be and what your priorities are and when you're going to get things done. So she could say to this colleague, hey, I'm signing off right now at noon because it's lunchtime. So I'm not going to be able to respond to your emails for another two hours.

6:10as I help my child with homework. But then I'm going to be back online from two to six. And this is what I will get done during those four hours X, Y, and Z. Yeah. I think it's great advice. And it also says that you're roping off a period of your day for non-work, but that you're not not working. It's just it's not getting done between nine and five. I think that I think that's great advice. Well, and I think one critical thing that for our letter writer here is that she cannot let this make her feel guilty or not enough or, you know, I think that the real damage of comments like this is not that she overworks or the real damages to her psyche. And I think she really needs to remember she is doing the best she can. We are all working through a pandemic and these are suboptimal conditions. So do what you can do.

7:09Okay, let's go to another question. And this comes from a listener who works in marketing at a high tech company. And right before the pandemic hit, she got a promotion and is now leading a team of 22. Her company has started bringing people back to the office and she writes, and I'm quoting here again, Half the team has small children at home and won't actually be able to fully come back to the office if at all. The company understands this and those people, it seems, will have approval to continue to work at home or try to come in for meetings here and there but only if possible. How do I make sure there's not an unbalanced or unfair dynamic toward those who aren't physically in the office? How do I make them feel part of the team just as much as the others?

8:04What do you think? So I am going to jump right to advice from HBS Professor Sidal Neely here. She is an expert at dispersed teams, virtual teams, global teams. And she talks about team launches and how important they are. And this happens not just when you get a new team or a new team forms, but also when a team moves to a new way of working.

8:31And so we did that when we entered the pandemic, when everyone went virtual. Now that she's moving back to the situation where half are virtual and half aren't, I think she should do another launch, clarify goals, expectations and roles, emphasize everyone's contribution, and then crucially set norms for things like when and how people will communicate, when and how people should come into the office.

8:57And also I think focusing on equity, you know, she's focusing on those people that are staying at home. Well, what if the people coming in feel like it's unfair to them because they actually would like more flexibility. So establishing that everyone is going to be operating the same way, whether they're in the office or not, and will have the same choices and access to her, I think is important.

9:18Yeah, I think that's a good point about you assume certain people are going to have the privilege or have the leg up by being in the office But that's not necessarily the case. They mean a lot of people will be nervous about going back I like the idea of sort of relaunching the teams some of us home some of us not some of us home part of the time there might be staggered schedules right in some offices So what are the norms we want to operate under and how do we make sure everyone is included?

9:48in communication I think that's one of the most important is that there's not you know quick huddles in the office or there's not you know the group at home just having a quick conversation anything you can do to create team cohesion really emphasize over and over we are on the same team we need to include people in conversations you know and that might be Okay, you can have a one-on-one conversation if you're both in the office but document it in Slack or send an email to the group about what was agreed So everyone's aware of the decisions that are being made in the in the information you're you're sharing Can we go back to something Allison said? I love your point about sort of setting norms and expectations. How would you suggest? Communicating and reinforcing those norms and expectations

10:36Well, I think everyone needs to contribute to what they should be, right? So I think a group meeting, 22 people is tough, but there are ways we've now all learned to deal with, you know, virtual communication in which people send suggestions ahead of time or you do polls, etc. So that everyone agrees what's important, where things should be documented, how often people should communicate, how in-person slash virtual meetings want to be handled, you know.

11:03For example, now that we've all gotten used to video conference, I would imagine when there are in-person meetings, the people who are remote instead of calling in now will probably be on video, which we didn't always do before. And maybe they didn't always do in this organization before. So I think that's one way to do it. And I also think overcommunication is key for any boss here in Amy B as a manager. I think you've done a great job of this during the pandemic. So I think touching base one-on-one with every member of her team.

11:3322 is a, again, a large group of people, but figuring out what they want and need from her as they all make this new transition is really important. What do you think Amy be about how often she should be communicating with everyone in this new normal? Well, there's this thing about setting down the rules of the road. And I think a lot of what you and Amy G are talking about are non-negotiables.

11:59that we have to be vigilant about keeping everyone informed and everyone included that kind of group understanding and then making sure that when people inadvertently violate the rules that, you know, they be reminded of them. In terms of communication, I really, that is one of those things that I don't have a formula. Some people need a lot more.

12:28communication than others. But one thing, I mean, I've said this before, one thing I worry about are the people who don't seem to need any communication. And I do worry about them. And those are the people I will put on a regular, you know, regular weekly call or something just to check in, it doesn't have to be long. But sometimes you just need to hear someone's voice.

12:52And sometimes they need to know you're thinking about them because one of the things about this pandemic that keeps hitting me is how lonely it is. Yeah. I just heard a leader talk about how they've been ending all their meetings.

13:0610 minutes to the hour. So only keep being 50 minutes. And then saying, please use this 10 minutes to reach out to someone else on the team who you haven't spoken to in a while. That's nice. And that's something I think this letter writer could do is say, with these 22 people, all right, we're going to end this meeting early. Reach out to someone who's in the office if you're not in the office or reach out to someone who's at home if you're in the office, just to sort of form those connections. I also think empathy is a real critical thing here, which is that People who go into the office are going to have their own concerns.

13:39their own worries and vice versa for the folks who are working at home. And I think it's helpful, you know, I don't know if it's once a week, once every two weeks, but just to get everyone together and talk about what are your concerns about the working situation now. It's one thing to say, please include your team members who are not in the office, but it's another, if you can understand what those people are actually going through, which gives you a more empathetic connection and inspires you to think about them.

14:06Not because you have a norm or a rule too, but because you understand what they're going through. Definitely. So Allison, what's next? Yeah, so our third letter is from another tech executive. This time she is a startup. She is the only full-time woman on her team. There are two female contractors, but the nine other employees are men. So she feels outnumbered. They are hiring for a ton of positions, which is great. And she's referred many women candidates.

14:36but they haven't hired any of them. And the company instead keeps bringing in white men in their mid 40s who are somehow connected to all the other white men in their mid 40s on her team. She writes to us, this is supremely frustrating. I recently suggested that we refocus our hiring strategy. My boss told me he understood and agreed with my concerns, but then announced another new hire, a white man.

15:04My question is this, do I continue to bring it up? I'm afraid that even though I try to be tactful, I'm going to perceive negatively for pushing it. What's your reaction guys? Yeah, I mean immediately what pops into mind is the research that we've published around if you have one woman in your slate of candidates, it's statistically impossible that she'll actually get the job. And my mind jumped to research showing that women do indeed get penalized for advocating for diversity in a way that men don't. But at the same time, we all know that organizations are made more successful, especially startups when people have varied backgrounds, experienced skills point of view. So we believe our listeners should be advocating for this. But how can she in a way that doesn't hurt her? So I wonder if her manager has

15:59said that he agrees with her. I wonder if he can become her ally to help advocate for this because she can't let this go, right? And she keeps pitching women for open roles and they're not getting through. Maybe she can dig into what's preventing them from getting further. What are the barriers? And take it more tactically.

16:24That's a problem-solving kind of mindset. That's not a crusader mindset. Yeah, right and I think pointing out where are the barriers and then saying I know you care about this boss Here are some ways that we can help dismantle those barriers. So we're more likely to hire women There's tons of research out there and there's lots of advice about how to get more women into your candidate pipeline, about how to change how you hire so you're not relying on your employees' current networks. I think a lot of that she could share with the boss and help him see a path forward because let's be honest, when we're under pressure to make a decision, we go to what's familiar. We've all been part of hiring decisions. It's great when you have a known factor.

17:12But if you continue to rely on that, you're going to end up with an organization that's not representative of the people you serve, that's not diverse in all the positive ways and really not innovative enough or inclusive enough. Yeah, I think you guys make such a great point about even getting ahead of the candidate selection and interview process and encouraging the manager and the entire organization really to just establish some better protocols for how people are evaluated. So how is our pool chosen? What's the criteria for this job? It has to be more than, oh, I know his work and think he'll do a great job. What are the competencies and skills we need for this role? What are we looking to see in a candidate, whether that's potential or demonstrated ability? And have everyone who's involved in the interview process

18:07go through that checklist to make sure that they're asking questions designed to get it and then everyone come together and discuss candidates. And hopefully what emerges from that is a more diverse staff without her saying, no, no, really there needs to be people of color. There need to be women in this organization. I think it invariably happens if you start measuring on metrics rather than gut instinct.

18:33But the after-action review that you're talking about, Allison, I just want to go back to that a sec, because if you force people to say why they rejected a candidate, that forces them to think about their own process, the way they consider candidates. And that's an important thing to do. And also, I think hearing from her colleagues with an open mind about why particular women that she has recommended weren't a good fit in their mind might help her pick better female candidates in the future or even coach people that she thinks she wants to bring in. Yeah. So guys, if you could just hear me fumbling with my equipment and now my voice sounding so much better, it's because my microphone was not fully plugged in and so

19:29I have just done that and will now sound much better for the rest of the recording. Oh my gosh. We've been there. You would think after two months of recording virtually, I would have this down by now, but not always. No, we have been there. No worries. Now they'll hear the real Allison. So Amy G, you're going to take us through the next question. Yeah, we actually got two questions about searching for a job during the crisis, which I think is such an interesting challenge. The first is someone who is actively looking for a job. She's a mid-career journalist at an international consumer magazine. A recruiter actually reached out to her about a new job at a social media platform. And she's about to go into the third round of video interviews. And she's been told there'll be five rounds.

20:18She's also the parent of a toddler and says the last interview was incredibly stressful in terms of scheduling and finding a time when her partner could be with her kid. She actually couldn't even see the interviewers face because the connection was so bad.

20:32And she writes, do you have any strategies for video interviews in the COVID world? What can I do to optimize my performance? I want to give the impression that I'm taking the interview seriously and appear professional, but these are less than optimal circumstances. What do you all think? Well, I think she should start by acknowledging that these are less than optimal circumstances. Yeah. And, you know, that she thinks her baby is in another room playing, but you never know with kids. I mean, you'd really have to be a monster not to empathize with that situation. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think even before she gets into the interview, she can change her mindset. You know, like, yeah, these are less than optimal. Things are not going to go exactly as you plan and that's okay, right? Yeah, totally. Yeah, I think, you know, she doesn't.

21:24necessarily want her toddler to run in, but if her toddler does run in, oh well, humanizes her and makes her show that she's totally competent and can handle unexpected circumstances. Yeah, and grace under pressure is an invaluable attribute. She can show that. Yeah. Remember, it's not just you that's stressed. I know the power dynamic is weird between you and an interviewer, but the interviewer has probably never done this either.

21:50I'm sure the interviewer was freaking out when the bandwidth was so bad that they couldn't see the video or couldn't see each other's faces. And just remember, it helps me in stressful situations to remember, we are in this together. You both are invested in the interview going well and smoothly. So that mindset I think can be helpful too. So you're not like this person is thinking I'm an idiot or I'm unprofessional or not prepared. You're both trying to make it work.

22:18And I just can't emphasize enough how important it is to show that you can handle the awkwardness with grace. Yes. Well, even to say at the beginning of the next one, you know, last time on my connection wasn't great. Can I get your phone number in case we get disconnected, right? Like something that shows like I'm prepared for different when things may not go our way. I know what to ask and know what to do in those circumstances to make it.

22:43work. Yeah. And honestly, the chances are this person interviewing her has had that happen to them or seen it happen to someone 20 times in the past two months, if not more. Yeah. I mean, you don't even mean so. Again, this new normal that we're all in has made crazy stuff seem run of the mill. Yeah. Dogs on weatherman's laps, kids dancing in the background.

23:10cats crawling on your head, anything. It's truly. Backgrounds falling down. Yeah, like all of it. So let's actually move to our next question because it's also about looking for a job. And this person actually has a job offer, but it seems to be in limbo with everything going on. So she writes, dear women at work, I've accepted a position for a new job that starts this summer. Ever since we've been in quarantine, they've been promising to send a contract to sign, but it keeps getting delayed.

23:39I'm nervous given what's happening with the economy. It's a great job, but the salary is low. I took it because it was the only offer I got. Would it be terrible of me to continue seeking other higher paying positions and perhaps tell the low paying job I changed my mind, even though I already verbally accepted? What do you think? A hundred percent keep looking for a job. Yes. Amy, what do you think?

24:06I agree with you and I don't know why she's under any obligation to let the company that is not sending her the contract to sign know that she's doing this. Yeah. I hear this question under normal times when people are interviewing for two jobs and they get an offer and they're like, do I have to tell them I'm still interviewing for another job? It's like, no, there's no obligation for you to be 100% transparent about what's happening.

24:34I mean, I think her primary focus should be get the best job she can and to be getting a job right now. Yeah. Just the salary in this one was already low. She took it because it was the only one. The delays in sending her the contract are a total red flag in terms of the company's health going forward. It's quite likely that they're not going to give her this job. So she needs to explore other options. Well, she can also ask them what's going on.

25:03I mean, that's totally okay. Yep. And there may be very good reasons why there are delays. It may be that they're putting her off because they don't know if there's actually a job there. And the more information she has, the better. I mean, here's the thing. No one's going to rescind the offer just because she asked what's going on. Totally.

25:24Right. When she may not have to ask the question like, is this job going to exist or not? She could ask the question. I understand you haven't sent the contract because of delays. Do you have a sense of when you'll be able to send it? Exactly. You don't have to get up in their face, but she owes it to herself to get as much information as she can. Yeah. Given that we are, you know, in a pandemic, in a recession, you know, it's obviously not a great time to be looking for a job. It sounds like she struggled before.

25:53I would like to encourage her to think really broadly and strategically about the types of companies that we'll be hiring now and find roles at those organizations in those industries. There will be opportunities for people who have flexible skills. And so I think I would like to see her approach the job hunt.

26:15in a very calculated manner so that she is only pursuing opportunities that actually might work. Yeah. I hate to tell her to go back to the drawing board because we've all been there. When you've been through a brutal job search, you finally get to the end. The last thing you want to do is start sending out resumes and cover letters again. But I think in this situation, it's what she's got to do. Yeah. So, Allison, you're going to take the next question, right? Yeah, so...

26:40This is the director of a consulting firm and a mother of two elementary age boys who's really struggling to balance work and family responsibilities during this crisis. Her company has been hard hit by the downturn. There have been two rounds of furloughs, including half of her department. She and the other surviving employees have taken a 20% pay cut. She was going to try to take time off or reduce her hours this summer since, as we all know, most camps are canceled.

27:10But now she says she's feeling the pressure to raise her game at work. She's also being asked to help the organization pivot and come out of the situation faster. She writes, This is so tough. What do you guys think?

27:39So I have a couple of thoughts. One of them is this pressure. She's feeling to raise her game. Where's that coming from? Is it coming from her manager? Is it coming from herself? And I wonder if this would be a good time for her to talk to her manager and set expectations just to as a reality check among other things. It would be good to reality check that. What exactly is that pressure and what are the expectations? Yeah, and I think we've talked about this before, but you know, this crisis has really changed the way everyone is operating. And so use that as an opportunity to say 100% I am going to raise my game, I am going to help you pivot. We are going to come out of the situation faster. But the way you see me working is going to be a lot different than if I was coming to the office every day. I'll be chunking out these hours to do X and these hours to do Y, but I'm fully committed. So I think she can have that conversation with her manager. And times of crisis can be huge opportunities for aspiring leaders to show their metal.

28:51I sort of wanted her to take a real step back and think about what her priorities are at this stage of her life. So we know that she wants to have a great career and we know that she wants to be an amazing mom. So I think that that can only happen if you reset expectations with yourself and everyone you're surrounded by about what it means to be both an ideal worker, and a perfect mom. I wrote about this a while back in a synthesis essay in the magazine. Joan Williams recently wrote about it for hbr.org. She will need to give a little on one side or the other. And I think that will require her to figure out what is most important now and then communicate with the various stakeholders about what that means for how she'll change her behavior.

29:46Well, and I think the other thing to think about is Before she does any of that is also just like give herself a beat to grieve right because she's just lost half of her department She's taken a pay cut. She's had this leisurely summer envisioned in her head That's completely out the window now. So take a moment to be really sad that things are not working out the way You thought they would I think that's we're all feeling that right now and the more you fight against that the more difficult it's gonna be and then you know to the ideal worker Point or the ideal mom right like I think we have these visions in our head of what that looks like and sometimes

30:32It doesn't align with other people's expectations and it doesn't align with reality. She's not going to be a perfect worker or a perfect mom this summer and that's okay. One of the things I find useful, especially when I'm coming up on something like a summer, I think working parents feel a lot of pressure around summer under normal circumstances because their kids are off. They want to give them a good summer. They want to work less if they can and often that's really hard to do is I usually pick one or two things.

31:01that two-week vacation we have planned, I'm not going to work at all during that. Or I'm going to be done working by 4 p.m. every day so that I can enjoy some of the summer evenings. Or just choosing one or two things that you can commit to. You can tell people that you plan to do and really follow through on. I think sometimes that can help with the feelings of inadequacy that often accompany trying to balance these two things. The other practical suggestion that I came to was time management. We published a great big idea by Ashley Willins called Time for Happiness. And it talks about outsourcing, everything from chores to decisions on what food to buy and clothes to wear. And I think this is a time to talk to her husband about taking on more of the invisible work that we know so many women do and feel obligated to do because of gender roles.

31:57Even as social distancing restrictions ease, maybe it's possible for her to bring in extra help. Like maybe it's a sitter who agrees to abide by like really strict hygiene, isolation rules also, or family members, our letter writer trusts. There might even be online camps, you know, that she can enroll her kids in. So she feels less guilt about not being with them. She provides them with activities. And then she also has the time to commit.

32:24to work. So I would like to see her once she has the sort of philosophical discussion with herself and manager about what she needs to be doing and where her priorities should be. I think just focusing on some practicalities would help. What keeps coming to mind for me with this situation is that often, I don't know, I feel like we're each blindest about ourselves and our place in the organization. So That's why I keep thinking that if she has the relationship with her manager and talk to her manager about her concerns that she might find she is less to be worried about than she thought and she might also learn that there are things she's not considering that she ought to consider as she's thinking about the trade-off she's going to need to make. Yeah. Well, and that's, I'm glad you said that, Amy, because I think

33:22We don't see ourselves clearly. Obviously, she is a valued employee. Half her department was let go, but she was not. And it would be helpful to hear from her manager the value they see her bringing to the organization over this difficult period. Because then she could lean into what she knows is her strengths and not worry so much about knocking out of the park as much as really just leaning on the things people are expecting from her and really want from her in this moment. Yeah, but the other thing I want to bring up is I wouldn't go in a posture of begging forgiveness or begging permission because this person has proved herself. We keep noting that and the organization doesn't want to lose her.

34:13there's probably more willingness than she suspects. You think that's even true in this era of layoffs and pay cuts and furloughs? Hard to generalize. People are under tremendous pressure. But what doesn't go away in a period like this is the value of the talent on your team and people who have highly valuable skills.

34:42don't lose their value in a moment like this and in fact their value in some ways is enhanced people who are flexible and people of the learning mindset and communication skills the ability to roll with the punches people who show grace under pressure their value only rises in a moment like this yeah what i think there is a tendency at this moment to think.

35:04Lots of people are gonna be on the chopping block. Why would I think I would be sacrificed? Or there's five other people who could do this job. But I think really focusing on like your unique abilities and your skills and leaning into those at this moment are really important. I think you need to think about the pressure we're under without obsessing about it.

35:29because it could make you really. Oh my God, it'll make you crazy. And it'll make you less effective. You know, you won't be taking the risks you need to. You won't be pushing in the way you need to. I give this advice to friends occasionally who I truly believe it about, which is like, your 50% is better than most people's 100. So like just give what you can and don't worry about it. And I don't think we can tell her don't worry about it because there's a lot to worry about right now. But at the same time, I don't think it's worth exhausting herself over. Yeah.

35:59And also on the exhaustion point, it sounds like she's at a stage where she actually just really needs to take some time off, not only to grieve, but to recover. Yes. And so whether it's a day or a weekend or whatever, she needs to have her kids like creating at home spa for her, which is what my kids did for Mother's Day, or it was really sweet, actually. I mean, it was.

36:22It was like a collaboration with the other family that we're with, but it was really sweet. Can you send them down here to my house? I will send you pictures because it was pretty hysterical. We had a hot stone massages. There were stones drawn from the river and then boiled. Oh, my God. That's amazing. We had a windy spa session, which involved fans like blowing directly on us. I had a three-year-old climbing on my back. That's amazing.

36:50I think that it would be great for her to just take some alone time and whether that's exercise or a walk or reading a book or having a nice dinner and glass of wine with her husband. I just like to see her take a breath. Yeah, totally. Yeah. All right. I want to get into the wet hair question. Yeah. This is a good one. So this woman is a senior leader at a company, but she's new to the organization. She joined just four months ago.

37:19and she works out before coming into the office. I assume this was a pre-quarantine question. And sometimes her hair is wet because she's gone to work out. She points out that she does have makeup on, but her hair isn't yet dried. And the head of HR pulled her aside and told her to come to work with dry hair. She's wondering if this is appropriate advice, sexist outdated. It sounds like it was almost a policy that the HR person laid down. What do you think?

37:47I have to tell you that I laughed out loud when I read this question because this is me. And you all know when we used to be in an office together, I routinely came to the office with wet hair. I would typically have a dress on. I would also be wearing makeup. I would probably be wearing flip-flops before I changed into my heels. So my first instinct is to say, that's ridiculous.

38:14Good for her for working out. Your hair will dry well. You're answering emails in the first half hour of your day. But then I took a step back and I thought, you know, it is important to understand cultural norms at your organization. This thing we call executive presence. Lots of our authors talk about Amy Jensus, Sylvie Ann Hewlett. It is key and people do expect senior managers.

38:37to exhibit it. So it's demeanor. It's also how you present physically. And it's possible that for a new senior leader at this firm, wet hair just isn't okay. You know, even if it is for me, as a 10 year veteran on a creative team, who doesn't manage anyone directly, like I don't have to be a professional. So I would encourage her to ask a trusted colleague, like, is this just the HR person or is this legit advice designed to help me get ahead and have more influence here? Yeah. Well, one thing you can do, particularly if you're new, is look around. I mean, when you're back in the office and see if other people are showing up with wet hair. And if they are, then it's okay. Yeah. I also think that standards for what is professional have completely changed as a result of this crisis. And I would imagine that

39:33When she does come back into the office wet hair is gonna seem like no big deal. It may be even to the HR person. Yeah Guys when we're back in the office. I'm still gonna come in with wet hair I think we'll be lucky if I have a new pair of day pajamas. I think we should all wear pajamas back to the office Hey Allison, thanks again so much for joining us. You've been great. It was so much fun. Thanks for having me. That's our show. I'm Amy Bernstein I'm Amy Gallo. Our editorial and production team is Amanda Kersey, Maureen Hoek, Adam Buckholtz, Mary Dew, Tina Toby Mack, Erica Truxler, and Rob Eckhart. Thanks for listening.