Women at Work - Ask the Amys

0:02It's time for us themies. Yay One of my favorite types of episodes that we do I love doing this. Yeah, we hear from listeners all the time Mostly through our inbox with questions. They want advice about a situation they're facing and we always want to help and sometimes it leads to an episode idea but then sometimes we just want to get into this specifics of someone's issue and give them some advice. Yeah, I always learn on these episodes. Yeah. You know, I learn what's on people's minds, but I also learn from the process of thinking through. Right. Right. An answer with you. Yeah. Like, what could be going on? What could the person try out? And also, what are we missing? Because I think sometimes there's cues in the email or in what they say.

0:57that just makes us realize there's something else going on. But we're sitting on this wealth of knowledge that is the archive on hbr.org of all of our articles. You and I get to interact with experts all the time who give this sort of advice. Yeah. We're like the HBR archive bots. So should we get started? Yeah. Let me start with this one from someone who had listened to The episode the ups and downs of being a first-time manager from season eight, which actually led to our how to manage series, which came out in June. And she has a follow-up question. She writes, technically, I am not a manager. No one reports up to me, but younger associates work with me on many projects where I am the lead. We report into the same boss, but he's very hands-off to the point where I'm essentially these people's manager in theory.

1:50I don't have a say into their performance review, salary, or career progression within the company. Any suggestions on how to navigate being a manager in spirit, but not on paper? Yeah, there's a lot going on in this. Part of it is the challenge of leading without authority. Yes. Right? And particularly in a world of projects, we're all going to have to face that challenge. How do you lead without authority?

2:20And I think that if a lack of definition is making her uncomfortable, then maybe she should propose to her boss a definition. So tell me what I can do and what I can't do or better yet, given this project and the needs, here's how I propose the decision rights work. Yeah. Well, and then it sounds to me, what I was hearing from her is that she's really mentoring.

2:47these people, even though they technically have this other boss that she also has, right? But she's now, they're coming to her. She can help them as well. Figure out how to advance the way they want to advance. And the other thing she can do is, even though no one's asking her for input into her mentee's performance, doesn't mean she can't give it, right? Right. She can sort of lean into the informal ways she's leading, giving people direction.

3:16Mentoring them and like you said speaking up when it's time for their performance review I have thoughts on the way they've performed I'd like to share and while she can't necessarily make the concrete decisions around salary and career progression she can Be a positive force in their career. Yeah, and she actually is managing some you look at that last part of the question that she asked how to navigate being a manager and spirit but not on paper. I think that is where she should go to her boss with a constructive suggestion of how to define decision rights and responsibilities. Well, and I think my advice would be to maybe do the managing and spirit for a while. Does she like it? With the attitude of

4:06Yes, it's going to add time and energy to her plate, which she may not have, but that experience will ideally help her later. Maybe in this role gets more formalized. Maybe she does take on managing some of the team members. Maybe she does get to have more decision rights. But also whatever role she takes on next, she now gets to say she has management experience, even if it's not formal. Exactly. And to pay attention to the dynamics.

4:33of the team and how her leadership kind of lands with people over whom she does not have formal authority and to figure out how she wants to show up in a leadership role when she doesn't have direct reports. Yes. Right? Well, and it's an opportunity to try things out, see what works, what doesn't. I mean, in some ways, the pressure is off because no one's expecting her to do this. She can lean into it in any way she wants and she doesn't have to do all of the paperwork and all the stuff that people say they don't like about management. No one ever said, boy, I wish I could do five more performance reviews. No one ever. I will say the thing that concerns me is that this becomes a suck on her time, on her energy, and she is in no way compensated or recognized for it. I would encourage her to document what she's doing. Write it down. In what way is she playing the role of manager? Keep track of that.

5:31So if there does become an opportunity that she can either step into her boss's role or maybe manage a few of those people on the team that she has the evidence that she's been doing it. Such a good point. And a lot of a lot of times people are held back from promotion because they aren't people managers. And this is where I would pull out that document that you just described and say, well, I'm not formally a people manager, but I am.

6:00an informal people manager. And, you know, I've been pretty successful at it. Yeah. Again, leaning into the opportunity that's been presented to her, as long as she is making sure she is keeping her eye on the prize, which is ultimately to get rewarded and recognized for making this effort. Yeah, well put. So let's take the next question. And this one comes from a woman who left the workforce for two years.

6:29to have children, came back as an assistant and then got another role in the same company as a manager. One and a half years into this role, she says, I'm still having trouble with a few teammates. I've done all that I can to help serve this part of the team, but still find that I can't win them over. It doesn't help that I'm the only female in leadership in this male dominated industry.

6:58and young enough to be their daughter. I'm hoping that you can weigh in on my experience so that I can grow and become a stronger leader for my team. All right, Amy, unpack that. You know, the first thing that comes to mind is Teresa Cardidor's research about the pressures on women in male-dominated industries to leave, and the fact that they're often given these managerial roles where they don't, they don't have the same expertise as the people they're managing. And so then, they feel like a fish out of water to steal the subject line of this email we got from our from this woman here that the distance between her and the people she's managing just keeps getting greater and I think really what she needs to think about is there a way to win over these teammates you know and it's interesting she calls them teammates she doesn't call them direct reports even though she's their supervisor there's a couple things in here that

7:58I want to dig into next. Let's talk a little bit about how she sort of wins their trust, but also just about her mindset. So let's get there in a minute. But in terms of building the trust, one of the things I would encourage her to do is to think about what is it those people Wanted not they want a male manager. They want someone who understands that like what is it? They actually need some resources that would help them do their job better an approval from finance or HR Is there something that she can help them win to show that she's on their side and it shows competence, right? Correct, you know Francis Fry and Ann Morris have this famous sort of triangle of trust and the three components are competence, right? Mm-hmm empathy

8:44And then the third one, I always forget the middle one. Authenticity. Authenticity, thank you. So your idea, I think really deals with the authenticity and the empathy piece of that. What do you need? I'm gonna help you get it. The competence thing, she mentions that she's younger than they and she's the only woman. I think digging in on the competence thing, you know, they probably have expertise that she doesn't have.

9:14But she wasn't put in that role to have that expertise so she needs to think about Her purpose in this particular role. Yes, and then that's the game. She's playing it by game I don't mean, you know, it's not it's not some sort of sham Yeah, but she needs to think about where she's gonna play and how she's gonna win on that front I agree and I think that she needs to Maybe even go back to the people who gave her this position like who saw the potential in her and ask What was it you saw great idea that made you make take and she actually says we didn't read it But she says she against all odds was given this job I want to say no not against all odds rewarded based on who you are. Well, that's the mindset piece that you brought up I think we should get into that. Yeah, you're thinking I mean

10:02Even the language around, help me become a stronger leader for my team, which I love, right? It's at that servant mindset. But what I worry is that she's actually coming from a place of deficit. I'm lucky to have this job. No wonder these guys don't trust me. Rather than, here's what I bring, that these guys don't have. Which is probably something that that team really needed, or she wouldn't have been given the role. That change in channel.

10:29You know, I come in with my own strengths. Yeah, I was put here for a reason and You know, I have a lot to learn. Yeah, help me learn it. Mm-hmm. And In the meantime, let's dress your needs. Yep, you know She's got to give it her best shot. You know, it's hard to know what's in their heads It is and to be fair their heads may be full of bias ageism or not sexism. We don't know right definitely don't let that be the loudest voice in our head. You're the only woman. You're young enough to be their daughter. You know, this may be true. What are you going to do about it? Exactly. And the other thing that I just want to remind her of is that her role as manager is to orchestrate the efforts of her team so that the hole is greater than some of the parts. It's to remove obstacles. It's to bring out the best in them.

11:23to help them work together, to help them move forward. And in doing that part well, she's going to establish trust, right? Yeah. And two other thoughts. One is that it sounds like there's just a few of these folks who she feels like she's not working well with. I would think about what worked in building the relationships with the other people. And can you double down on some of that? Yeah. If there's someone you're managing that you really trust, maybe even ask them, like, you know, I was new to this role, what made you believe I could do this? And then, you know, my experience tells me is that there's some people you're just never gonna win over. And then further experience tells me that when you stop trying, you often do win them over. Well, that is interesting. I mean, maybe she looks like she's trying so hard. I think that line,

12:16is also about your mindset of like, am I doing everything in this relationship to try to make it work? Or am I doing my part and waiting for the other side to show up? Because if they're not doing anything, that's where you sort of start chasing the approval or chasing the relationship. Do not chase. No, like just do your part, establish the boundary. I've done my part, now it's time for them to show up. Exactly. And that mindset I think will make them not sniff that desperation. Exactly. You can change the dynamic. Yeah.

12:45You know, if she does all this and it still doesn't work, right? She's still finding these particular teammates tough. I do think there might be a chance, an opportunity to sit down with not all of them at the same time, but maybe there's one who's the real sort of influencer among the group and say, you know, I feel like we haven't had the best working relationships since I started. And I'm just curious, is there anything I could do to better support you, right? And just make it a really direct Honest conversation like I sense there's some tension still between us and I really want to clear the air Yeah, what can we do to do that? I mean don't let the reason for this problem be that She didn't try yeah, right? Yeah, and I still love the advice you just gave which is sometimes you won't win them over sometimes you won't win them over and that is not catastrophic Yeah, that's the other thing I would ask her if she says she's having trouble with these teammates is the trouble hindering the work. Yeah

13:45or is it really just for her, I can understand as a manager wanting your team to like you, wanting your team to show you respect, but is it actually standing in the way of her doing her job? If it is, absolutely. Take all these steps that we've talked about. If it's not, maybe let it go for a while. Yeah. Let it go. See what happens. You know, just in changing the way she thinks about her role, she might change the way these resistors see her. Let's take another question.

14:15from someone who's also a first-time manager. She takes this new role. It was a great promotion. Then the supervisor, her supervisor, tells her in the first month that the person who was in her position was actually demoted, and now it's her responsibility to let them go. On top of that, there are also two or three staff.

14:37this supervisor tells her who've been there too long and have too high of a salary and she needs to find a way to get rid of them. So she's asking, how do you deal with the feeling of being a villain who came into a new company and disturbed people's life? Literally. Boy, that is really tough. I mean, first of all, she should recognize that she was put in a horrific position. Yeah. That is, you know, hiring someone And then laying on their desk, the demand that they fire people, I mean. And she's a first time manager. She's never managed before. And she was totally set up. Yeah, she was totally set up. She needs help. Yes. There's no way she can navigate this or be expected to navigate this on her own. So she needs help from that supervisor. She needs help from maybe HR on how to navigate this. Yes.

15:34Maybe there's a mentor who's maybe done this before, let people go before who can mentor her through this. She should not take this on alone. Don't take it on alone. And is this the company you want to work for? Is this the manager you want to work for? Because this is just the first thing that's happened. Right, right. So there's that. If there's no HR help to be gotten, which I do think she should ask her manager.

16:03to sit in the room with her and help her have this conversation. Yeah. For sure. And that the argument there is, you know, clearly I was brought in to do this. And that doesn't seem right. And she has every right to kind of call out her manager on that. Yeah. That is very poor management. Well, I think about all those articles we've published about middle managers who have to deliver news that they don't Agree with or that they're concerned about right that they don't believe in and and whether that's a major organizational change restructuring layoffs and a lot of the advice is to really try to understand I think I've even heard you say this right like try to understand the rationale So I would just ask a ton of questions. Yes of the manager who gave her yes this this directive and To keep asking until she's satisfied Because she cannot deliver

17:03This news without feeling that she's understood it right. Yeah, and to push back I mean I have to tell you I once came into a new job and was told you know You can go ahead and fire X Y and Z person really and I said that doesn't seem like a very good way to Come into a new job and didn't do it right the idea that I can make my own team, you know, that's a positive message. Yeah, but Telling me that I can get rid of people before I've even gotten a chance to know mmm, but so I said I don't How can I fire people? I don't know. You know, you're making me think maybe there's more room. The way she's explained this to us, it sounds like she's been given these directives. By asking those questions, which I think she's totally in her right to ask, maybe she'll find out there's actually a little more room here, either time-wise, they don't have to be let go right away. I would say, as a first-time manager, and this is essentially I think what you were saying in that position you were in of

18:00I want to get to know these people before I make that call. Right. Well, as she's investigating the rationale for getting rid of these people, if it's a question of performance, the first thing I would ask is, have they been told that their performance is disappointing? And have they been given a way forward? Has anyone tried to coach them? The other thing is that if this is a question of budget, We're downsizing mmm, then how are these decisions made right? How did you decide on person a right mm-hmm? I don't understand a rationale called they've been there too long. Yes, right? So I would push back hard against that. What does that even mean? All right. I have to say I don't feel super hopeful

18:46for this situation, because it just sounds, and what I'm really hoping is that there's more room here than she thinks, and that by asking questions and asking for help, she'll find out there's more behind these decisions than what she's been given. However, if we take it what's happening at face value, there's part of me that is like, get out. Get out. Yeah. Get out. And if people ask, if you're interviewing for jobs and people ask, so you were given this great opportunity, why'd you leave?

19:16You can say, you don't have to give details, but you can say I had a profound disagreement on management approach and I thought it was better all the way around if I separated myself from that company. Yeah. I mean, she might even say the way I was asked to manage was not aligned with my values and I'm looking for a position in which I can be a great manager and also act according to my values. Right.

19:42People get trapped by their current jobs because they they can't pull the camera back far enough To see that this isn't the last job they'll ever have. Yeah, the thing that seems so unfair for this to be her first experience Someone with 10 years 20 years 30 years of energy and experience would still find those. Oh my god I would I would lose sleep over this. Yeah, but this is a crucible moment She can't let it break her. Yeah I mean, again, I go back to the ask for so much help, right? HR, your manager, whoever you need to ask for help from, this is not just about the impact on the people who she is supposed to be letting go. Let's say she's able to find a way to do that that's aligned with her values, these three people. She still has a team who sees her as someone who came in and let what seems probably like a good proportion of the team go. And so I think she really has to think about the impact.

20:38on her of these immediate decisions, but also on the broader team. Right. I totally agree with that. And again, she shouldn't do anything until she is satisfied that she understands the rationale and she can embrace it. And if she can't, maybe she can go back to her old company. I mean, find her next job and find her next job. She's now had invaluable experience and she knows herself a lot better. Right. Yeah. Oh, deepest, deepest sympathy for this one, right?

21:07Such a such a bad position to be put in. Yeah So let's hear now from a listener who is also working for a really bad boss He everywhere aren't they? Yes, they are he dismisses her ideas her suggestions for how to help project move more efficiently and He insists that the teamwork late nights and weekends because that's what's quote-unquote correct. Hmm. He refuses to admit his faults and He likes to blame our listener whenever she raises the boundary issues about working late nights and weekends, or if she questions him on strategy. She does admit that she's challenging him, but she doesn't do it to get him angry. She's asking him these questions so she can understand. She's doing it in a calm tone, but he still gets rattled and he gets pissed off.

22:03and she's now worried about the success of this project. When she's gone above her boss to leadership to raise her concerns, they tell her just fall in line, do what this boss tells her to do. But she's already ruffled her boss's feathers. And now she's in a place, she says, where it's basically impossible to change his behavior or protect herself from the effects he has on her. She says her mental health is suffering.

22:33And she also has seen him giving feedback over her head to leaders without even sharing it with her. So he's going behind her back and talking about her without giving her a chance. Because she challenged him. Because she challenged him. So he's undermining her. And so she called him out on this and asked him to share his feedback.

22:55So she could improve right so she could take some action Yeah, so now she's documenting her own work just so she has the evidence that she's doing what she's supposed to do Yeah, so she writes I honestly feel like I should leave this project as there is no way we can change bad management styles I'm curious about your point of view. How would you suggest we get along with bad managers without losing our sanity and our health? All right, Amy. Yeah That's an easy one for you. Yeah, totally. No problem. So I would just first say documentation is so key. I'm so glad she's doing that. Keep doing it. Document not just your own work and what you're doing, but also any interactions with him. I just think that's going to be crucial. It sounds like this might come to a head again. So I would just be prepared for that. And then I think it sounds like she had sort of three

23:48Maybe two options well one option could be you know she says we can't change bad management styles Sometimes that's true. I think most of the time that's true, but is there is there another?

24:04person she can go to, like I would just ask herself, has she really exhausted all channels? And the answer may be yes, it sounds like she's done a lot. I mean, she's gone, she's gone to the leaders of that project. So that's why I said maybe two options, because I'm not sure that's one. The two other options are to stay on the project and figure out how to tolerate this behavior. I do think if she just sort of falls in line, he may calm down.

24:33Like I think he's reacting to her challenge and then I think the other option is to leave it sounds like it's a consulting or professional services firm There may be other projects. She can get yeah, that's where I would go because I think she's she's made a gallon after I know I know this guy is insisting on late nights and weekend. She raises legitimate issues with that that which calls the boundaries. Yeah, and she got no satisfaction on it. So I get that her health is suffering and I bet it's physical and mental health. Those long hours take a toll. I notice that she asks us how we'd suggest she get along with bad managers without losing our sanity and health. And I'm not sure that's even possible. If you can't tolerate their management, then I don't think getting along with them is the goal. Well, I mean, I think that this boss reminds me of like,

25:28two chapters in my book, like one about insecure managers and one about what I call the tour mentor, someone who you hope would be a mentor, but actually undermines you. And I think he falls into both those categories. And I do think she's done a lot of the things already that I would advise. So I think we sort of have to fast forward to, yes, you've tried to get along. The question really is about protecting your sanity and your health. Then it's about disengaging, recognizing this is not about you. This is not your failure. This is a situation you've been put in that isn't fair. Is there a way to heads down do your work? Are there people on the team who you enjoy working with? Can you find ways to spend more time with them? Can you find ways to even vent with one another about maybe the impact he's having? Sometimes even just knowing you're not alone can help.

26:21That said I'm not sure she's gonna get there. Yeah based on what she's Saying I hope she asks herself What she's getting out of this job other than a paycheck. Well, what she's getting at this project, right? Exactly That's I think the escape valve here is like if this is a professional services firm where it won't be Extremely damaging to her career. She wouldn't lose her job where she can say it's just not working I've talked to you all about how it's not working. Is it possible to get put on another?

26:50Right. And if it's not possible to get put on another project, you know, is there another company where she might want to work? Yeah. You know, I think I talk to people all the time who are just in just have terrible bosses, but don't want to leave the job for whatever reason or and have tried really made gallant efforts just like this woman has. And it is really about finding the emotional distance from it. And it sounds like she's She's sort of been hooked into it for a while. And could she just give herself, even if it's just a week, if she let herself for a week disengage from this person's behavior, yes, she's gonna have to work late. Yes, she's gonna have to fall into line, do things that she wouldn't normally do and she thinks are not necessarily the right direction for the project. But if she does that and disengages emotionally from it for a week, how does she feel? Exactly. I mean, just give herself a break there. Yeah. He clearly doesn't want any help. Yeah.

27:45in managing this project. He wants to get the project done. I'd make my peace with that. Maybe his ego is really sensitive. Maybe he's deeply insecure, but something about her and challenging him has really put him in a position of not being able to be open to any feedback, being open to considering changing things. And I think once you get someone in that corner, They start to behave like a caged animal. Yes. And she's got a back off from that. Yes. It's not effective. Well, she's banging her head against a wall. Exactly. So, yeah. Yeah. Okay, let's go to one more. Also someone who actually was in a difficult situation, but sounds like she's gotten out of it, which I love. So she left her job.

28:36that she was at for two and a half years and she's about to be starting at a new company with a better role. She sounds like it's checking all the boxes for her in terms of what she wanted in the next position. The problem is she's worried that the baggage of her previous job, in particular the manager she had in this last, she hadn't used this word but I would say toxic environment.

29:02You know, she said that she had managers who relied on passive aggressive comments, microaggressions, micro management were biased against women. Right. So she's worried that that previous experience is going to affect this new role. So she's asking for our advice about what happens when you leave a job where you didn't have the best bosses, which sounds kind, honestly, she had terrible bosses. And how do you not let that affect your new position?

29:31Well, she's already ahead of the game because she is self-awareness. So she can be aware that her new colleagues are innocent until proven guilty, right? And that's a question of fairness, but it's also giving herself a chance to thrive in the new environment, right? Yeah, exactly. I love that. And I think she needs some closure from that last job.

29:56been given the advice in my life many times to like write a letter to myself about something and I'm always roll my eyes. But I actually did it. I went through actually this tough period in the spring and someone said just write a letter to yourself about how you got through it. I've actually looked at that letter multiple times because it was like giving myself compassion. It was reflecting on my strengths, what I did to get through that period. And I feel like I don't like to give this advice because it does make me roll my eyes a little but I do wonder if she might write a letter to herself about how she survived that experience. I love this idea. And what she's taking away from it and what she wants to do differently just as a sort of putting a bookend on that's done, right? And turn the horror into something a little more constructive. What she learned about bad management, what she learned about herself and her own values as

30:52both an employee and as a manager, right? And how she wants to turn this terrible experience into better leadership when she gets that opportunity, right? I mean, I would even like fold a piece of paper in half and write down on the left side all the things she does not want to do as a manager herself because that's in her control. She can't control this new environment and all the things she will do.

31:19Right and that might be values that might be behaviors, but then then for her it's really clear This is what I can control. This is what I'm doing to be my best self in this new role But I think you also You know when you start it off right away with self-awareness I think you hit the nail on the head because She also needs to be aware that she is going to be prone to see those things absolutely Absolutely, you know, I would say if she could give herself the breathing room to be open and to give her self a fresh start and to give her new colleagues the chance to prove themselves as great co-workers, then it might be that the pain of the last experience fades more quickly. Yeah, you know Heidi Grant wrote this article for us about goal setting years ago and she in it she had this tool like if

32:13this happens then, right? It's like if then statements. And I feel like that tool could be adapted here in that she could say, you know, if I start to think that I'm being micromanaged, then I will try to give the person the benefit of the doubt. If I notice it happen twice, I will document it so I can make sure I'm seeing it clearly. Whatever, just creating if then statements for what will happen if she starts to find herself triggered by some of the what she's seen as feeling like it's the same as the last one. And that'll save her from leaping to conclusion shaped by the past experience that may not actually be apt for the present one. Yeah. So Amy, I get so much out of listening to your advice. And you've been doing this for a while. And in fact, you have an advice column on hbr.org called Getting Along.

33:08And you cover a broad range of topics. Yeah. I mean, so far I've answered questions from people about what to do when a coworker sabotaging you, but your boss won't pay attention. One person was a woman of color who was trying to navigate what she called this frat-like subculture in her organization. And one was from a guy who just felt like his boss didn't trust him at all. So how do people actually ask you?

33:35So if you look for those articles online, you can actually we'll put one in the show notes so you can see there's a link at the bottom that how you can submit a question. So if you have a question like one you heard today, feel free to submit it there and hopefully I'll be able to answer it in a future. You are very wise. Gosh, I feel like I'm sometimes I feel like the things I say are just repeats of what you've told me before. Not exactly. That's our show.

34:08I'm Amy Gallow. And I'm Amy Bernstein. Next week, have you ever considered joining a board? It has been one of the most incredible professional experiences I've had, one of the greatest parts of my career. Hear from several women who've tried it, loved it, and volunteered to share what they wished they'd known going in.

34:28HBR has more podcasts to help you manage yourself, your team, and your organization. Find them at hbr.org slash podcast or search HBR in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. Women at Work's editorial and production team is Amanda Cursey, Maureen Hoek, Tina Toby Mack, Rob Eckhart, Erica Truxler, Ian Fox, and Hannah Bates. Robin Moore composed this theme music. Thanks for listening. Email us anytime.

34:58including for advice at women at work at hbr.org.