Women at Work - Communicating Effectively When You’re Running on Empty

0:03You're listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. I'm Amy Bernstein. I'm Amy Gallo. Communicating clearly, completely, and persuasively sets you up to have the impact and influence you're after. That's how we pitch our brilliant ideas. Connect with an audience, inspire others, and win support. But expressing your ideas when you're sleep deprived burned out or in perimenopausal brain fog can feel nearly impossible. Add to that having to deliver a message you don't agree with? Ugh. So what then? Because dodging the conversation isn't always an option or the right option. So how do we rise to the moment, even when we're worried we can't? Muriel Wilkins has ideas. She's a leadership development coach.

0:57who hosts the HBR podcast, Coaching Real Leaders. During our recent Women at Work Live virtual event, she talked us through communication techniques that meet you where you're at mentally and emotionally. I started by asking her if there was a particular communication skill that she'd been working on. Oh, my gosh. I feel like I've been working on it for 52 years, basically my whole life.

1:27And it might not be what you expect because I think people probably say, oh, how do I communicate clearly? For me, the communication issue that I'm working on and it's a lifelong journey is that of listening and really listening to understand rather than just listen so I can play back what the person said, right? So listening in a way to.

1:49make others feel heard make others feel understood not necessarily to agree with them but just so that i can get to a place of understanding before i move on to actually talking yeah i just think about how hard it is to.

2:06do that to listen when you're feeling all the stress we were just talking about of all of these pressures that are on you? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I say it's listening because you asked me about communications, but I actually think the deeper work there is about not being reactive. And so listening helps me not be as reactive, which we're all prone to do, especially under stress. You know what it makes me think of Muriel?

2:31So last week I was actually working on a communication challenge and that was a presentation to the board. it turned out to be like four and a half seconds of my speaking but somehow it took over my entire life and what I really needed to to figure out was how to calm myself so I could be present so I could hear what people were saying really listen to the questions and it sounds a lot like what you were just talking about. Yeah absolutely I mean I think you know mindfulness has become such a big Word and we can get overwhelmed by it. I know I have we're like what the heck is this thing we call mindfulness like what are people talking about right? And even like breathing but then once I got it that it's just a matter of like Trying to anchor yourself and trying to stay with what the person is staying because that's the only thing that's happening at the moment Then I kind of got what that means and so calming yourself down

3:25in that way, sometimes just getting some type of anchor. It could be the other person's voice or your own is really helpful in doing that. So yeah, I love that. You know, I have to say for me and I don't think either of you will be surprised to hear this, but the thing I'm working on is not just talking and talking and talking because I'm tired or unfocused or not able to listen and I just fill the time. Actually, this happened this morning. I said some very long three sentence thing to ABB and she summarized it in like a three word.

3:54you know, phrase and I was like, yeah, that's what I meant. That's my challenge is just talking and not being able to like stop. Right. Because we're too tired to stop sometimes, right? Ironically. And we have 8 million things happening in our head at the same time. I'm trying to listen. I'm trying to say this. Is this the right thing? I'm trying to monitor the person's reaction. I'm also dealing with all the stuff that's not even in the room at the moment, right? All the stress in my life that's not there. Mariel, I've been dying to ask you this.

4:30How do you know if you're even in the right frame of mind to deliver an important message of any sort? Look, I think it takes a practice to figure that out. I mean, I just mentioned mindfulness, right? And what does that actually mean? It's being aware of what's happening for you at the moment. You know, a lot of times we might run into a communication or meeting or presentation and halfway through we feel like we're running out of steam or afterwards we feel like, oh man, I was too tired to do that or I just wasn't really prepared.

5:04that doesn't really help. What helps is being aware of that before you go so that then you can do something about it. So I think the first place is really checking in with yourself, right? How am I feeling? Do I feel tired? Do I feel frustrated? Do I feel angry? What are the emotions that are happening? Am I prepared, right, at a real tactical level? And based on what your answer is, then knowing what can you do within the time that you have, whether it's a no-go decision, and if it's a go decision, which I'm sure we're gonna explore, how do you handle it? But I think the first place is really to start with, where am I? And most people don't even know that part.

5:47Yeah, I struggled with that, because sometimes I think I'm fine, right? Like I feel the energy of like, oh no, okay, we're in it, we're in it. And then I look back and I think, oh, I was not prepared to have that conversation or I was not ready to deliver that message. You have to figure out what your threshold is, like what are your blocks for me? Even if I'm, I mean, I feel like I'm, I probably shouldn't say this, but I'll say it anyway. I mean, I feel like I'm like, persistently tired like I just but I'm I'm an endurance person so I'm okay with you know and then I have to take breaks so even if I'm tired I'm okay communicating right where's for somebody else it might not be the case I know for me if I'm angry or frustrated not a good time for me to communicate recognizing what are the emotions or the states that don't put you in the best conditions and they're different for everyone

6:40I sometimes get kind of weary and I'm so used to pushing through and the price of doing that for me is that I don't have much patience on the other end so I can deliver the message but the follow-up leaves a lot to be desired. When I know I'm weary, I ask myself, can I put this off for 24 hours? I love what you just said, Envy, because it's not just about do you have the energy to deliver the message but do you have the energy to actually engage in the conversation that's going to result. And I think we underestimate the length of the communication. It's not just about getting the words out of your mouth, but then it's listening, responding, all of that. Yeah, and my further check to that is, I always ask myself, when I think about responding the moment, I've done the wrong thing, I've delivered the tough message, even though I'm really not in the right frame of mind, I take a breath before I respond to whatever I'm hearing and ask myself,

7:37is what I'm about to say proportional. Right. Right. Right. And do you need to respond? Sometimes. I mean, that's, you know, you started off with. Revolutionary. Revolutionary. I happen to have somebody very close to me, also known as my husband, whose favorite line is, not everything really requires a response.

8:02You know and I've had to learn that as a practice like I actually think there's something they said we're so conditioned to respond to everything right react to everything and I think there's just as much of an impact not only on yourself but on others to actually make a choice as to a Do I need to respond be even more importantly at times especially in heated discussions? Is this worthy of a response? Yeah, right?

8:32OK, but how do you do that, Muriel? How do you not respond and not be insulting at the same time? I mean, I will share how I do it. To be honest, most times when I don't respond, it's a boundary on myself, not on the other. I know that if I respond right now, it's going to come out ugly. Right? It's going to have an impact and an affect that is not the outcome that I'm driving to.

8:59And as you talked about Amy B around what happens after the meeting, I don't want to have to deal with those repercussions. So it's probably best if I either just let the person keep talking or keep my response short. So it's often a boundary on myself rather than the other. Now, if I feel like I'm not going to get anywhere with the person, given their state, given how they walked in, that no matter what I say, We're not going to be able to move forward. I choose very consciously not to respond in that moment. And I will say, you know, so I hear you, here's what's happening. Here's what I have to say now. Let me think about it. Let me come back to it and just figure out what is the actual information that they need at this very moment, because they often don't need the whole soliloquy. You know, they just need like, here's what you need to do next. That's it. Move on.

9:56There's a question from our audience, which is something I'm curious about too. And it's when you do need that space and time to think. When the go-no-go decision is no-go, right? I'm too tired. I'm not ready. How do you effectively communicate that to a team who's maybe ready to engage, who's actually eager to have the conversation? I think you ask, you check in, right? You don't assume that they have to go now. I actually ran into this situation yesterday where I thought, The other person was ready to go. I actually wasn't and I walked into the meeting telling myself I'm not feeling it they got on and They said yeah, you know this and this is going on they had a lot going on that day So well, you know How would you feel about us kind of regrouping at the end of the week? Instead of doing this now because I know I'm in a place where this is probably not the best time for us to talk about this and he was like

10:49Yeah, let's do that. Right. Now, if he had said, actually, no, this is the only time that I have and we need to move forward, I would have moved forward with it. But I think this notion of checking in with people and asking rather than assuming the worst thing they can say is, no, we need to do it now. And that's not really the worst because it's what you were expecting anyway. Right. So in a gentle way, I think without any fluster, just being able to ask is good enough. And I think we'll at least give you an answer.

11:18But what if you don't have that option? What if you really have to move forward and you're not feeling it? You know, at that point, I mean, this is what life's all about, right? Like, I mean, how many... Let me tell you something. Did I feel like getting on that treadmill this morning? No, but I did, you know? So I think you focus on the outcome. What is the outcome you're looking to drive to? There's a saying around, you know, particularly for a lot of...

11:46somewhat of a runner and one of the things we talk about all the time when we do endurance running is think about how you're going to feel afterwards. Yes, you might be dreading it going in. You might feeling wary. I think you've got to say, okay, why am I doing this? You then anchor in the why. What's the purpose? What's the outcome rather than how I'm feeling? You take it outside of yourself, right? Now you can't do that in perpetuity because that's what then leads to burnout.

12:13But I think every now and then to be able to say, OK, yeah, I don't want to do this. I don't like to do it. But I got to do it anyway. So let me figure out what my why is. And I think a lot of that why is in the outcome. And so being secure, if you don't know the outcome you're driving to, you're going to have a very, very hard time getting past those emotions. I love this point, because if you're focused on the purpose or the outcome or the goal, right? Then you're not getting wrapped up in the short-term goal, which is get this conversation over with or make this person happy. Yeah. And the outcome isn't always necessarily like, get the project approved. I always, when I talk to my coaching clients, I always say there's the outcome, kind of the content, the task outcome. But the other outcome is how do you want to leave this meeting or this conversation feeling? And how do you want them to feel about you?

13:04when the conversation is over. That is just as important as the other piece. And in Lulu terms, it's kind of like, what's the energy that you want to create in this conversation? And because the energy is gonna be created by both of you or by everybody in the room, what do you bring to the table? And then you try to shift to that as much as you can.

13:24Yeah, you know we have a question from Francesca who's asking basically how do you do this? So you have your purpose you right you have the outcome you want how you want to leave the person feeling But also are there any tips or tricks to actually appear stable and confident when you're not? I mean look first of all I think Francesca nobody is ever steady confident enable all the time which is why I always tell People that I work with don't wait till you're on the field to warm up Okay, so this notion of I'm not feeling confident or I don't think I'm gonna be confident Then what do you need to do before the meeting? What do you need to tell yourself? How do you need to prepare so that you can show up as confident as possible? So that's what happens even before now Let's say you're in it and you're feeling like okay. How do I get through this? I'm tired or whatever else is going on How do I make sure that I feel confident? Well, what does confidence mean confidence means that you are

14:22pretty certain things are going to be okay. So the confidence first has to start with yourself. What are the things that you can communicate that you know what you're talking about or that you believe in or that you want to get across? Focus particularly on what your key messages are. This is the time to try to be as concrete and succinct as possible. So less is more in terms of showing up as confident. I think the other thing is find causes so that you can study yourself, which is why I love the fact that I'm working on listening, right? Ask questions so that it gives you a chance to sort of take a pause and collect yourself before moving on if it's that type of situation. And then I think third, keep bringing it back to why you're doing this and state that explicitly meaning, be the anchor in the meeting. If you know that this is a meeting that is about getting the project approved,

15:18hold onto that and bring the audience back to it. Even as the river seems like it's running off course, bring it back. Look, let's come back to what we're here to talk about, which is this project and the three things that we need to discuss to get it approved. So if you can try to stay as structured as possible, that will help you in terms of then keeping yourself steady. Yeah. I want to shift directions, just a tiny bit. And I've been saving this question to ask you Muriel.

15:48One of the things I struggle with is whipping up the celebratory vibes, you know, the balloon drops that are kind of, you know, who doesn't love a balloon. But it's not something I even think about that much. It's not how I came up in work, you know, I came up in newsrooms where, you know, you were lucky to have a job and no one was sending you thank you grabs. So.

16:17But I think it's a really important part of our culture here. And how do I, help me get better at this, please. How do I do it in a way that's appropriate and authentic? And I can say that I do feel gratitude so much of the time and I'm not great at expressing it. Yeah. I think that as...

16:43Work actually has gotten increasingly more demanding and there are even more aspirational goals and audacious goals that are being put on organization on people You know my sense in what I tell my clients is the greater the goal the greater the aspiration the greater the stretch you're putting on individuals and expecting of individuals the more radical the appreciation needs to be and So the authenticity part of it, Amy B, actually what I would encourage you to do is not so much look at the authenticity of the action of how you show appreciation, but start with the authenticity of the intent.

17:23Right? So how authentic is my appreciation for what the individual did? Where is my gratitude coming from? Why am I appreciative? And it may not be for the same reason that they expect me to be appreciative, but let me have some authentic appreciation. Then I can move to action. And for the action in terms of how you do it, I do think that there's wiggle room to figure out a way to do it in a way that's comfortable for you.

17:50Right? I personally am not going to walk in with 100 balloons, right? But I feel very comfortable sending those one-on-one emails, sending the text, hey, thank you. I appreciate you sending the email to everybody saying, I just want to applaud this person sending a gift. There is no one way. I think really the whole point is doing something, showing it.

18:13verbally, through actions, through what not, in a way that's comfortable for you. But I would definitely say start with the authenticity part, starts with the intent. Because if you show appreciation, but the intent is not authentic, it's gonna smell inauthentic.

18:30right that's the worst yeah like even if you if you feel the appreciation and don't show it obviously that's not great but if you show it and actually don't feel it like yeah we've all been in there we're like oh thanks for the award right when even they actually don't i want to continue on this theme of motivation in one second but i want to tell you amv because you don't give a lot of like you don't show up through the pumping your arms through the office saying we did it when you do say something complimentary or celebratory it has such resonance when I said I've told you this before but like when you you know sort of land a compliment look me right in the eye and say you're good at this it means so much and I think to Muriel's point you have to find a style that's right for you and it will land with people if you really feel it because I'm going to believe those things you say about me. You know what having received

19:21the faux compliment and finding it rattles me. It makes me think, oh, I really must have sucked. Yes, exactly. It does the exact opposite. Exactly. So let me just say something, though. I think this is getting a little deeper than I thought we would. I think that in order to be able to communicate appreciation and to communicate gratitude to others authentically, one needs to be able to have the capacity to receive it as well.

19:51And so, hmm. She's got your number. So, part of the practice is in receiving it. Yeah. You know, at a client who asked me the other day, like, oh, so what should I do? Should I do? I said, what about just a simple thank you? Right? Like, you don't have to do. Why don't you just call that employee up and say, hey, I really want to thank you for going the extra mile on what you did. That's it.

20:22On this theme of motivation, though, I do want to ask, Muriel, when you're trying to get people on board with a decision or a message, and you're finding that they're not...

20:33getting it, right? And you need that patience. We talked a little bit about this before, but like, where, how do you tap into that motivation of like, I need to stick with this? You know, and I know I liked what you were saying about checking in, but is there anything else to sort of internally tap into when you need that patience and they're just not getting it? Yeah. I mean, I think a place to start is to even recognize why you're not patient. I mean, why do we get impatient? We get impatient because we think we should be at point B and we're still at point A. The reality is we're at point A. So like getting upset that we're not at point B, which is what impatience is, isn't really going to do anything. You know, it's not going to make it move any faster. And so you've got to identify why you're impatient and what can you do about it in that moment. If there's something you can do about it, great. If there's nothing you can do about it, then you need to stick with where you are, which is where your audience is.

21:29If they're not getting it, you have to meet them where they are. That's a key piece of communicating effectively. You have to start and be with people where they are. You cannot run 10 miles ahead and expect them to hear you and understand you. You're too far away. So part of it is while your agenda might be 10 miles ahead, while the final point might be 10 miles ahead, they're still at mile one.

21:59you've got to be right there and saying, okay, let me break it down to you, right? So when you're at a place where somebody is not moving forward in terms of the thought pattern or what you're trying to communicate, a couple of things you can do. Number one is you take a couple steps back.

22:16You take a couple steps back, say, let me go back to the assumptions that we use as we talk through this. Or let me pull back big picture, which is what we call framing something, reframe the message. So those are two steps you can take. You can also say, I feel like I'm explaining this in a way, but I'm not sure if it's quite landing. What concerns do you have? What questions do you have? What is it that you're hearing from me so that you can then course correct? Yeah, I like that. Let me ask you another question about one of the challenges I see people struggle with a lot and I do myself as well, which is that when you actually don't want to deliver the message because you have some emotional baggage around it or the concern about how they're going to respond, twist the message. Like sometimes I might need to send like a three line email and it takes me an hour to write it because of all the emotional, like I'm sort of dictating what their response might be and trying to negotiate with them. How do you sort of cut through all that?

23:14to get right to what you want to say. Yeah that can be very difficult and again the place to start is even realizing that you have all these emotions to begin with because a lot of times I know for me I might not realize it I'm just sitting there looking at my computer like I need to write this email and I write it and delete it 10 times and it's not coming out and then that's a sign right so in that moment you also have to recognize that emotions are emotions.

23:38They are feelings because of the story we're telling ourselves about this message and the story we're telling ourselves about how people are going to react to this message. And by the way, that story that we're telling ourselves about how people are going to react to that message is based on some past experience either that we had with them or that we had in terms of a message being delivered. So this is how the story gets big because there's all these stories packed into it.

24:06What you want to do in those moments is actually recognize those things and separate it out. And go back to, you're hearing a consistent theme from me here, go back to the outcome. Why do you need to send this message? What is the purpose behind the message? Why do I need to deliver this message right now to these people? And it's not to dismiss how you feel about it.

24:32it's to really focus on the outcome rather than the story that is wrapped up as you're trying to move through that piece of communication. All right. And if you're having a really difficult time, this is when you need to phone a friend. You know, call a friend and be like, look, you know, kick the tire on this. Like, am I overdoing it here? Check my reality here. And if they're like, yeah, don't do that, then you at least have something outside of yourself to do a reality check.

25:02Yeah, I have an email writing buddy when I'm feeling like this isn't making sense or I think it's going to annoy the other person. I'll send it to her and it's sometimes just like take out this word. And you realize I'm like, oh, that was the emotional word. That was the one that I was trying to stick it to them without really sticking it to them. Yeah. Well, so here's where I would phone you, Muriel, my friend. Phone me any time maybe. What happens when you're called on to deliver a message?

25:31that you just don't believe in. Yeah, those are always hard. It depends on the message, right? And this is when you have to be really honest with yourself. If it is a message that really just goes against the grain of your core value system or even your integrity, is this a moment in life where you need to draw the line?

26:00knowing that there may be consequences to making that decision. Then there's the, okay, I can do it. I just don't believe in it. I'm not aligned with it. This is not what I would do. I think there's a couple of things that need to happen. I think there's always room to negotiate the message. If you can negotiate the message with whoever is asking you to deliver it, try to negotiate the message. If they still are like, no, this is it, then you've got to find a way to voice it, A, in your own words, in a way that reflects what your own values are. So let me put in an example, because that makes it more concrete. Let's say it's something that impacts people in your organization that you have to deliver. The way that you convey that, you can convey that same message around the impact on people, but do it with compassion, do it with an acknowledgement of how it might be received.

26:55So that you're holding the and you're holding the message and your own values at the same time. Yeah. And I have to say my reaction to that advice is that sounds exhausting. And yet it's also the responsibility that we take on when we accept these jobs. Absolutely. It's exhausting. That's what's causing the stress. You know, it's the tension.

27:20But if I've learned anything, you know, throughout my career and working with leaders is that leadership is all about tension. The role is holding the tension. Yeah. Let me ask you about when can you be transparent about that? And not that you necessarily disagree with the message. Obviously, you don't want to say that. But let's say you're tired. You're under a lot of stress. Is it OK to say that when you're delivering the message? Or does that come off as sort of unliterally?

27:48You know, I hate to answer this one, but I think it depends, right? How much you divulge around like how you're feeling about it and where it might be causing you some angst or some stress really depends and and it doesn't here's the thing I don't necessarily think it should depend on like you right as a leader I don't think it really depends on like is it gonna make it easier for me if I share how I'm feeling, that I'm feeling tired or I'm feeling stressed or I'm feeling this. I actually think the responsibility is how do you deliver this message in a way that shows good stewardship around the people that you're delivering it to? You know, for some people it will make things worse for them to hear that their leader is like stressed out or doesn't agree or is tired.

28:37And for others, it'll actually help humanize it. It'll make it better. There's no right or wrong. I think it really depends on how do you think it's going to impact folks on the other side? And if it's going to exacerbate the situation, don't do it. If it's going to enhance their experience in hearing that message and it's going to help them hear the message with a little more ease, then do it. Now what's great is if you are actually making a choice about that.

29:06because then what it shows is you have a range. Most of us are not making choices, right? We're either TMI or like not saying anything, but you have a choice. Make the choice based on how do you want them to feel? Well, I think I know how you're going to answer this, but I'm going to ask it anyway because I've been here. You know, sometimes delivering a tough message, having a difficult conversation is a lot easier if you don't have to face the person.

29:35So what if you are just tapped out and it would be so much easier to deliver the message on email? Just give yourself a little bit of a break. Should you do it? Is that just too easy? Don't take the easy way out. Should you be prioritizing the feelings of the person you're communicating with? How do we think about that? I mean, I think that this definitely goes back to impact. This question of.

30:03how we define what's easy, what may seem easy in the short term and what may seem easy to me may not necessarily be generating ease. And so what's the goal here? And if the priority is I want this conversation, this exchange to be done in the most transparent way that honors the fact that this person is a human and Needs to hear it straight from me from the source Then you talk to them if it's it's okay for this to be transactional which there are definitely things that can just be transactional then you do email So it depends on the level of depth and meaning and understanding and I think the level of connection that you want to reinforce and sustain with the others communication is a vehicle for relationships and so I think at the end of the day

31:02you have to look at what is the outcome? What is it that I'm trying to create from a relational standpoint with those people or with this person? Based on that, you then decide what the mode of communication is going to be. I feel like what I'm hearing you say is you're prioritizing their comfort, their needs over your own. Look, I think this is why you have to find moments outside of communicating to do things for yourself.

31:31You know, don't look for your self-care through sending emails. That's not where it's going to happen. If you're taking care of yourself outside of these difficult moments, right, those difficult moments will feel less difficult. What would self-care look like in a situation like this? Like you have to give this difficult message. Take the five minutes, get off of whatever social you're on for five minutes and say, I'm actually going to like prepare myself so that I can hold myself together as much as possible and prioritize this person and how they feel at this time. There's a difference between taking the easy way out or finding the easy way and doing things with ease. Two different things. Totally. Taking the easy way out is outside of ourselves. I'm going to send the email because that's the easier, faster, quicker.

32:28I don't have to deal with the way they react right in front of me. That way it doesn't feel messy, even though it still is, you know, it's all an illusion. That's the easy, it's outside of ourselves. It's the action is easy. Then there's the doing it with ease. The doing it with ease is no matter how they react, I'm okay because I know that this is a message that I already understood that they might not like it. And I'm trying the best that I can. And I took them into consideration as I delivered the message. And so to me, the goal is like, Can you communicate in difficult situations, but do it with an inner ease, even though the external is a hot mess? Muriel, thank you so much for coming on this event with us. Really, it's been such a helpful conversation. I'm going to go back and listen to it because there are things that you said I need to write down. Thank you. Always such a pleasure talking to both of you. And thank you to everyone who also participated in this with us. That's our show.

33:34I'm Amy Gallo. I'm Amy Bernstein. HBR has more podcasts like Coaching Real Leaders to help you manage yourself, your team, and your organization. Find them at hbr.org slash podcast or search HBR in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. Women at Works editorial and production team is Amanda Cursey, Maureen Hoek, Tina Toby Mack, Rob Eckhart, Erica Truxler, Ian Fox, and Hannah Bates.

34:02Robin Moore composed this theme music. Get in touch with me and Amy G by emailing women at work at hbr.org.