Women at Work - Couples That Work

0:07You're listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. I'm Sarah Green Carmichael, executive editor. I'm Nicole Torres, associate editor. Our co-host, Amy Bernstein, was away at the World Economic Forum while we taped a lot of this episode. But you'll hear from her a little later in the show. This episode is about the support that women get or don't get from their spouses, partners, and significant others.

0:30because the people we love have a big impact on us professionally. One study of dual career couples found that people put more time in at work when their intimate relationships are going well. And another study found that people were more successful when their partner tested high in conscientiousness. And then there's the one that found that while high-achieving women are obviously happy to get emotional support from their partners, what really makes the marriage stable is getting material help. Laundry, errands, caring for children and aging parents.

0:58But Jennifer Petriglieri, a professor at INSEAD, has a nuanced take on that. She studied 50 dual-career, highly educated, opposite-sex couples from countries around the world. She says the ones who were thriving did not split chores 50-50. It was much more kind of mutual and fluid between them. That's because the practical support those couples were giving each other was coming from deep, shared, psychological support. The kind of support we need if we're going to thrive in our careers.

1:27We're also going to be talking about what can happen to your relationship in the long run if you don't get the support you need. First though, our conversation with Jen. We asked her to tell us more about her research on how the psychological support we get at home shapes our identities at work. So there's a study that's about to come out that's co-authored with my colleague Otelia Obudaro, which is looking at the psychological aspects of being in a dual career couple.

1:55And what we find is that if you look at the sort of narratives in society on dual career couples, there's very much this narrative around that it's hard and it's hard work and it requires trade-offs and compromises and sacrifices. And if we drill down, this narrative is really what we might think of as a zero-sum game, okay? So there's a winner and a loser, and if we're in a couple, the more you win, the more I lose.

2:21And what we found in our research was something actually quite different that yes there are couples like that where it is all about trade-off and sacrifices and compromise but there are other couples who have a very different mindset and what's interesting is that mindset then impacts how they think of their careers what they do in their careers and how successful they are.

2:43So instead of trying to work out how I can get the best for me versus you, they're looking at how we can get the best for us. So they're really psychologically supporting each other in a different way. One of your findings is that the thriving couples experienced each other as what you call a secure base. What is a secure base?

3:05The support we often initially crave and we think about from our partners is very much the tea and sympathy support. So when we face a setback in our careers like, you know, not getting that promotion or not getting the job we wanted, our immediate reaction is to think, you know, I want a little bit of Molly Cuddling. I want someone who's going to take my side, tell me I'm great and sort of cocoon me.

3:31But what we find the support that really matters is that plus this push out, so this push away from that security blanket, that safety blanket, and this telling, well, you know, what are you gonna do about that? How are you gonna change this? How are you gonna make it the world you want to make it? And so what's counter-intuitive about that is instead of keeping our partners very close, we're actually pushing them away from the relationship.

3:57obviously in a loving way. And we're not interfering with that exploration. We're not saying, you know, have you done this? Have you followed up? Have you done XYZ? We're really giving our partners the independence to go and explore and grow and develop in the way they need to. And sometimes this might not feel very nice, right? We all want that.

4:16that love and sympathy and the cuddles. And sometimes when we're feeling vulnerable and wobbly, we don't really want to be pushed back out into the world. But we know from many, many decades of studies on psychological development that this is how we thrive. This is how we develop and grow. It's by picking ourselves up and going back out there and trying again and exploring. Can you give us an example of what being a secure base looks like from your own experience?

4:45Yeah so I'm going to give an example which might be familiar to many of your women listeners and to many of the couples. So I had two children relatively close together so they were 16 months apart and it was a period that was very busy for me. I was doing my PhD, we had two under twos. For anyone who's ever had two under twos they know how crazy that can be and how wonderful it is but it is crazy. And like every woman I went through a period of thinking I just cannot keep this up, right? There is no way I can keep my career going and be the kind of mother I wanted to be to these children. And at times like that, many, many women get messages from their partners and from other people around them. Don't worry, take some time out, it'll be fine. And we know that that's a total career killer, right? We know how hard it is for women to get back in. Well, this happened to me and my husband said to me,

5:43there is no way you are giving up your career. I'm not gonna let you. You will regret it. Now at that time, did I like it very much? No. But was he right? Absolutely. And if he hadn't have done that, there is no way I would be here today.

6:00And I am incredibly grateful that he pushed me and of course he was also supportive and trying to dust me off. But if he hadn't given me that kick to carry on, my career would just not be where it is today. And I think we can see this in the opting out, so many women don't get that loving kick.

6:21they get the tea and sympathy and they get the support but they don't get that little extra push that would really make the difference in their careers. I'm going to guess that a lot of our listeners are probably ambitious, hard-working, terribly busy women and men. What are some small but meaningful ways that we can all show support for our partners? I'm going to give you three things. The first is a relational thing, if you like, which applies whether your partner has a career or not. In these days, we are attention deprived. We are always on, always on a device, always have to do list running on our brain. We're very busy. We may have children running around who we need to feed and read bedtime stories. It's very hard to pay each other attention. And yet, even five minutes of total undivided attention

7:17every day can go a million miles in a relationship and that's both in terms of feeling understood, feeling heard and also feeling supported. You know, I often do an exercise with the couples where I'll ask them, you know, when was the last time you just sat down for five minutes and said nothing but just listen to your partner? Like a simple question, how was your day? And just listen, not interrupting, not kind of connecting to something that happened to you but just five minutes. I think that's one thing that will really help the relationship but also help that support. I think the second thing is actually a recognition that things will be tough and that's okay. I think very often especially in today's day and age we sort of

8:01Molded to think we need to be happy all the time and things need to be going well all the time And if it's not there's something wrong with me Well, you know it is hard having a career and it's even harder if you're both trying to have a career But it's very meaningful and I think just to recognize Individually and in the couple that there will be moments where it is pretty painful But that's okay and we can deal with them is really important and part of this is a managing expectations but also part of it is a recognition that very often you know if we all think back on the most meaningful times in our couples and our careers they're very often those painful times which we come through and afterwards we can say you know we got through that together and it was good so I think about managing those expectations and then the third thing is to take the time you know

8:51Again, this doesn't need to be every day, it doesn't need to be every week, but take the time every so often to have those preemptive conversations. What is it we're aiming for individually and together? What is it that's going to make us thrive? And what choices might we need to make to make that happen? Because all too often...

9:11a decision sort of comes upon us and we're trying to make the decision at the same time as figuring out what we want and at the same time as figuring out how that's gonna you know fit in with each other and that's when the conflicts really rise so if we can take that time even if it's just twice a year to really sit down and think about what we want. And this isn't like 15 years in the future planning. It might just be the next year or two years. But like what's coming up and how are we going to make this work together before we get to that firefighting phase? That would be exceptional. So the 50 couples that you interviewed for this research with your co-author were drawn from all over the world. Tell us about any cultural differences that you observed.

9:56So there were the obvious cultural differences, you know, some countries in the Middle East, some Asian countries, it was perhaps much more common for the man to have what we think of as the primary career and the woman to have the secondary career. Now, of course, in these couples, both have good careers, but in terms of whose career takes priority for, say, a geographic move or if you need to travel a lot, it would be the man. The big trends, though, actually came in family support.

10:24So in many countries, if we look at the African countries in many Asian countries, it would be... rather strange for a mother of 30s and 40s to take time out and look after the children because this is a person in prime productive economic age so there's a lot of family support in child rearing which takes a lot of the pressure off dual career couples but the really interesting difference actually is a generational difference so if we think of career prioritization there's three basic forms there's the primary secondary there's a where we both take turns in the primary position and the secondary position and sort of rotate every few years. And then there's something we call double primary where we've both got a primary career but we have some boundaries around it. Let's say we're going to base ourselves in New York and not move outside New York but within there we can both go full steam ahead in our careers. What we found was that

11:24For the younger generation, so maybe below about 45, there didn't seem to be a penalty, if you like, for the genders of saying they were primary or secondary careers. There were men who were secondary careers who were very happy to say so, likewise women. When we looked at the older generation, it was very, very hard, and we had absolutely no couples say that they weren't primary secondary, the man being primary, the woman being secondary.

11:52It seemed difficult for the women to claim that primary career, even when from the outside looking in, it really looked like they had it. And equally, you know, for the men to let go of that primary career slot. So I think that's quite an interesting finding, which is breaking down in the younger generations, which is a really great sign. Well, Jen, this has just been a wonderful conversation. Thank you so much for making the time. It's great to talk to you, Sarah. Thank you, Jen. Thank you, Nicole.

12:20I thought that was super fascinating. She was amazing because I think we often hear about practical support, but women are less likely to get the loving kick. That was helpful for me because I think sometimes I'm guilty of mixing up all those different things. I get a lot of the deeper kind of support from my husband and then I will look at like the unmade bed and fly into a rage and just be like, this is the patriarchy. And it's like, no, it's just an unmade bed.

12:47something I also realized coming out of that is that I'm not so good at giving that loving kick. I am the tea and sympathy person who's like, oh, that sounds so hard. Yeah. And I realized like, I mean, in part it's expectations, right? It's like, it seems mean. It also maybe isn't always what the person really wants to hear. But it's sometimes maybe what they need to hear and maybe there's a way of doing it that feels...

13:14acceptable. Yeah. I don't know. I also don't know if my husband would agree that I don't do the loving kick. He'd probably be like, oh, I mean, probably just fine. You do. But it's at least something we can think about and like ask a partner. Like, is this something you would want more of? Maybe they'll say no, but then maybe they'll also say, like, yeah, actually a little shove out the door might be helpful. So it's interesting to hear from Jen that younger couples seem to be figuring out how to kind of do this dual career thing.

13:47and figuring out how to support each other and balance each other's careers. But it seems like the older couple that she studied are still really kind of locked in those traditional roles and having hard time. Yeah, a Pew study actually found that divorces becoming less common for younger adults. But for adults ages 50 and older, the divorce rate has actually doubled since the 1990s. The so-called gray divorce is on the rise. So that's why our next guest is Aviva Wittenberg Cox.

14:14She's a consultant and the author of the new book, Late Love, Mating in Maturity. And in doing research for that book, she talked to a lot of these baby boomer opposite sex couples who are just seemingly having a really tough time supporting each other. And she wrote a really popular article for us called, If You Can't Find a Spouse Who Supports Your Career, Stay Single. And in it, she writes, even for couples who are committed to equality, it takes two exceptional people to navigate tricky dual career waters.

14:43Yes. So we talked to Aviva about how to find a spouse who supports your career and then what to also do if you have one who does not. Amy started by asking her about her own experience. So Aviva, you left a 20 plus year marriage at age 50. You have studied gender differences in the workplace for years and you've recently remarried. How did you go into your second marriage differently from the way you went into your first?

15:13A lot more self-knowledge and I made all of my desires and dreams really really clear and I was in a much sort of calmer and more mature place in order to listen to the other human being who had his own story and how could I really be of best use I think in the end why I really left and why I remarried is in this relationship I really know how to make another human being way happier than he could have been without me. And I think he knows it does the same for me. In this second marriage, what have you learned to help yourself be happier? I usually say that there are two things, learning to be more loving and more lovable. And so I think both of those are kind of self-awareness and skill building to really

16:12focus, time, attention, intention. We spend a lot of time talking and sharing about the relationship, about what do we need from each other, but what we most want and prefer from the other person. So I think that's kind of skill and being loving in a way that is appropriate to the needs of some other human being. And then being lovable is, I think, a real Issue for a lot of power women. We're used to being strong in control Perfectionists taking charge doing everything It's not always the easiest person to be lovable it just seems so hard because women like aren't afforded the chance to be that to be vulnerable and lovable, you know if they want to succeed if they want to become a

17:09power woman a lady boss. I think that's exactly right and I think that's the secret and the spouse the power women are looking for. It's men who love the full spectrum of what womanhood is becoming that yeah we can be super powerful super successful super tough.

17:31when required, and we can be super soft, super vulnerable. And you know what? We want men who are exactly the same. So I'd love to learn a little bit more about the research you've done on dual career couples and how much career support...

17:45how important that's become in relationships. Yeah, so it's not so much like career support. That's the frame that I use. It's more about this notion of our couples mutually self-enhancing. And then what I found is as they grew older and as the children left, which was usually somewhere in these 50s, these women suddenly discovered, much to their surprise quite often, that they were facing their best career decades.

18:15not looking back at them and so suddenly their careers were kind of taking off and they had new opportunities and they'd set up new businesses or write books or Start traveling the globe whatever their career was asking for them at a same time that their spouses were often who had had a much more linear career cycle with a lot of intensity and unbroken sort of up or out from 30 to 50 were starting to think about retirement and starting to think about slowing down and playing golf and getting on a cruise ship and those two dreams can not be mutually complementary and they can come as a bit of a shock particularly to the men who expected their wives to be their partners at play the way they had been their partners throughout their working lives. You know I'd love to pull the camera back a little bit and ask you to talk about what you see as the four phases of a woman's career because I think you're talking about

19:21one phase, but there's actually a lot more going on there. Yeah, and the reason for a lot of the divorce is that the what happens is pent up unresolved issues from the earlier phases. The 20s is really a decade now of ambition. Those ambitious young women tend to delay a lot of personal choices. So they tend to statistically marry later, have children later, and they tend to do all of those things.

19:50on average right now, somewhere between 30 and 35, which is exactly the same time that most companies start really gearing up their high potential identification moments. And that's not meant at all to discriminate against women, but it really hits unfairly hard on women who have families and increasingly on men too. The 40s, which is a phase I call re-acceleration, a lot of them are not necessarily in workplaces that are open to re-accelerating people at that age. So there's a little bit of a non-alignment between women's career cycles and men's, which is only really addressed by a certain number of companies that have really flexed their career and leadership development systems. And it's a shame because this re-acceleration of highly educated, really smart women who've only been

20:47plateauing for a little while pays off. And as I say, they end up with women coming into their fifties who are going to be working for another 20 years who are at the peak of their commitment, their time, their knowledge, their networks and everything. We've talked a lot about men and women, but I'm wondering if you hear different stories from same sex couples, the same stories. What do you hear there?

21:14Yeah, I find it's not so much an issue of gender as it is an issue of role So in same-sex couples what I hear and I don't have like huge banks I'm I'll make a quota that I don't have a huge banks of specialized research And I don't think there's that much of enough of it yet to really say but it would seem to me from what I have seen that inside same-sex couples There's a same sort of spectrum of who has a lead career a follow career who has primary parenting responsibility, who takes turns, who has a slightly more masculine role, who has a slightly more feminine role. But it doesn't strike me as being like dramatically different from the dynamics that you would find or the issues that you find in same-sex couples. What advice do you have for women who are thinking about preparing to build a life with someone? What conversation should they be having? I think for this young generation of really ambitious women,

22:14Do you have a spouse who is as excited and interested in your career as in their own? What are some signs that might indicate that? I think listening is a big one. Do they actually enjoy listening to your stories about your work? Do they kind of jump in and want to fix your problems or do they kind of help you in figuring out?

22:42what it is you might want to respond and do they have like really thought through ideas about your situation and how much time do you spend at home in the balance talking about your career and your issues versus talking about their career and their issues and I think it's just keeping an eye on that balance right and the other thing I would say if you go out to a dinner party who is getting all the interest in whatever it is they do. And is that okay with the other partner? What I heard a lot of feedback from these successful women is their spouses really hated accompanying them into public and professional venues where they became Mr. Her Name as opposed to their own professional identity.

23:34And you want to be sure that you've got a guy who's really comfortable enough in his own skin and his own self-confidence that, you know, he laughs and says, yeah, no, my wife, she makes twice what I do. Isn't it great? So what happens, Aviva, when some of us in long-term marriages have suddenly gotten a career boost? No one had discussed this ahead of time. It changes the power dynamic. How do you have the conversation?

24:02it is a really tough one it is a really tough one so i think it depends so much on the couple right there are some couples that are used to having regular deep consistent conversations there are others that really aren't and one of the challenges and why i think you're seeing such a spike in boomer.

24:22divorces and remarriages is I think a lot of boomer men have not really been educated or socialized in having deep intimate discussions at home involving personal and professional roles and dreams and alternating with their wives. And I think that's just not yet as easy for some as for others. And so what happens when those things suddenly alight into a couple is you discover Is my spouse ready to lean in into a redefining what our relationship is and what are our respective roles?

25:02Some people will love that, say, oh, this is so cool. Change. I love it. We were boring. We were in a rut. And others are going to be absolutely horrified. Wait a minute. We had an agreement. We've been in this for 30 years. What the hell do you mean? You want to be some famous star. That's not what I want. And then there's usually a bit of a crisis.

25:28really successful long marriages have a lot of them and you learn how to get through them, how to re-engage, how to have those conversations. So Aviva, while we have you, there was something else from your article that I wanted to ask you about. You wrote that professionally ambitious women really have only two options when it comes to their personal partners, a super supportive partner or no partner at all. Anything in between ends up being a morale and career sapping morass.

25:57I'm curious to know what percentage of the women you've spoken with are in that morass and what can they do? I mean, they've already signed on the dotted line. You know, they're in it. Is there anything that they can do to get out of it?

26:10that situation without necessarily leaving their partner? Yes, absolutely. I mean, and again, I think bring all your leadership skills, you know, start reviewing the agreement, start renegotiating the contract, start exploring. It's not like people don't know how to do this, right? You do this every single time you have an issue with anybody at work in a team or right. You start saying, okay, what's your position? What's my position? Let's talk. If we need a facilitation help, we'll get a coach in where we could learn to get better at this as most of the women I'm working.

26:39with is we tend to get resentful, angry, bitter, hard, passive aggressive, you know, we're wounded and so we bite back and I think we need to sort of heal ourselves with our own resources, our own other friends, coaches to build ourselves up.

26:59and then start this negotiation from a place of supported strength, but in a much nicer, more loving tone than a lot of us are initially able to do. So bottom line, like if there's one thing, what do you want people to understand better about how gender equality really works in a relationship? That it's changing fast, that women are changing every decade and that men will have to adapt to the consequences of the women that we now have in the world and men who celebrate it and embrace it and adore what's happening are going to have better sex, happier home lives, and much, much more resilient couples. Thank you, Aviva. My pleasure. Thank you, Aviva. Okay, talk to you. Bye-bye. One of the things that I'm still chewing on is that in a two-career marriage, you really have to be prepared to

27:56renegotiate the terms of the marriage and you have to be very aware of what's going on in your head, what's going on in your partner's head and you have to be alive to the sensitivities and brave enough to take them on. And what I took away is before you enter those relationships before you do the renegotiating, you have to set the terms initially. You have to have conversations about your ambitions, your career goals, your other dreams, and you have to see if your partner, this person you're thinking about investing in, is willing to support you, and not just support you, but be willing to renegotiate later if the terms change. One of the things I thought was interesting too was that

28:45She talked about how when women are leaving these marriages in their 50s, it's actually the women who are leaving. It's not necessarily what you would have thought of 25 years ago, maybe, where it was like the man leaving to have a trophy wife, you know, or marrying his secretary. It's that as women gain more economic power and more confidence, they're not willing to put up with something that's...

29:10Subpar and I think we've seen the same thing in some of the research We've seen too like there was a paper recently that was called the Oscar curse is real Which showed that when women win best actress they are more likely to get divorced but it's not Or not just because the men feel sort of threatened by their wife's success It's because the women are like well I don't have to put up with this anymore and the kind of soft factor here is confidence and some of it comes from earning your own living and so forth, but some of it just comes from being 50 and having gotten there and not being subject to the same kind of market requirements of being a woman who wishes to be married and have children. It totally changes the equation for you. And there is research that I found really interesting about how men benefit in different ways from being married, professionally and emotionally, but women

30:08can often be disadvantaged. So men who marry earlier, one report found they earn more. But if women marry earlier, they earn less over their lifetime. It's interesting that you mentioned that, Nicole, because I remember a paper too by Claudia Golden, the economist at Harvard, and a number of her colleagues that looked at the wage gap overall that men still earn more than women and she found a significant chunk of it could be attributed to mobility that men will move for a job and women often won't who are married and that actually it's the wage gap for married women that drives a huge chunk of the overall wage gap and that you know while there's a lot of factors that go into the wage gap it is this kind of marriage holds women back professionally in some ways that really contributes to a lot of it. One of the other things Aviva talked about

30:59that I love your thoughts on is that she talked a lot about using skills she had learned for professional purposes in making her relationships better. Is that something that you guys have done? I think managing is really the art of sort of figuring out what you want and how to get there in a way that is authentic and that embodies your values and that will help you figure out how to move people in the same direction. But there's so much values woven in to, otherwise it's just manipulation. So if you can do it effectively, then of course you're gonna take those skills home. It teaches you to set priorities. And that's part of what growing up in the workplace does. It teaches you,

31:54that you have to do this now, but not that. It teaches you that you have to be able to differentiate the important from the urgent. And that alone will help you in a marriage. You know, Amy, it's interesting to say that because something I've heard from a lot of women is that becoming a mother made them better employees, better managers. They learned lessons from their kids. And I don't have children, but it's something that I've sort of thought a lot about because there is also research that supports that. I think it was a study of female economists found that female economists with children publish more papers than those without. And so I think you could say that's a case of, you know, learning maybe to prioritize or manage time better. Who knows? I think that's absolutely what's going on and learning not to overreact to everything. It's setting priorities, but also understanding.

32:49What's really important and being able to let the rest just roll off your back? But the other thing you have to learn to do is to deal with messiness of other human beings and that's where Learning to let things roll off your back to just you know to say to yourself He's having a bad day rather than I hate him because he's being a jerk right now or he's being a jerk right now, he must be mad at me. Right, he must be mad at me, or uh-oh, she looked at me funny, she must hate me, or that work I just did must suck. You know what, here's one of the most liberating things you can learn. In work and in home, it's usually not about you. And once you've embraced that, it really helps you kind of ignore all the stuff that you would have let, you know, scratch your surface.

33:47bruise you. There's so many fewer slings and arrows coming your way than you think there are. So it's interesting to hear all of this conversation because I have always been better at school and at work than I have been in relationships. That's just something about myself. So one thing that has really helped me become a better wife to my husband is learning to do some of these things that I do well naturally in a professional setting.

34:16at home, so like a specific example is if I'm giving someone feedback at work, like that's critical feedback, I don't do the sandwich, cheesy sandwich thing, I try not to, but I try to start by being like, hey listen, like you're really important to this organization and to me and I wanna help you and I say like nice things about why that I care about them and then I say, and like the thing you need to do to get better is this. And I realized at home I was just like, The thing you need to do is this. And I hadn't said any of that stuff up front. So when I started actually doing all that stuff, suddenly I got so much better results in my relationship at home. So that's just one thing where I clearly just made a conscious decision to do this thing I do at work, do it at home. And it's worked so much better. And it's so much kinder. Yes.

35:02So what did you both think about Aviva's advice, not advice. I think she said she learned to be more loving and also to be more lovable. Absolutely rang a chime for me. Definitely. One of the things I learned in my relationship is that, you know, all of the, no, I can do it by myself. Yeah. It was very off-putting. So just saying, yeah, I could use a hand here, made the relationship so much warmer and more mutual.

35:30on both ends. I mean, that was such a breakthrough for me. I just thought I was being self-sufficient, because I always had to be self-sufficient. I actually didn't even think about it. But, you know, who else was gonna do it? Well, you know, learning to accept a hand was a very important thing for me to learn. It just seems scary to, you know, learning how to ask for help and how to accept help and how to depend on someone for help, because then you're saying, you know, I need this support, and if you don't get that support, then that then poses all kinds of problems. But it also reveals something vitally important, which is if you ask for help and you don't get that help, that might be a deal breaker, and it might ought to be a deal breaker. So understanding the truth early before you signed on the dotted line, bought a house and had two kids is a good thing.

36:27But the other thing that I just want to say to what you said, Nicole, is when you need to make decisions and when you don't want to make decisions and recognizing that and being articulate about it. I'm in my 50s and I'm not asking my partner to, you know, we don't need to pick up the kids and the laundry is not, you know, it's a pain in the neck, but it's not, you know, it doesn't define the relationship. But on the weekend, I don't care what we have for dinner.

36:56I don't want to make that decision. I make 300 decisions a day. I just don't care. Yes, let's have sweet potatoes. That's fine. It's that stuff that's kind of idiosyncratic, but kind of not idiosyncratic where you have to figure out what matters and what doesn't matter, not just to the other person, but to you and then to the two of you together. So how did you figure that out though?

37:22Was that because you had deep conversations about your priorities? What you cared most about? You don't care about dinner Saturday night? Or does that just happen after you see someone get annoyed when you don't try it to say what we're having for dinner? Yeah, more of the latter. I'm not a huge fan of State of the Union conversations in general, maybe in a crisis moment. But that's me. It's being able to read all of the cues like, maybe the screamed response. You have to sort of, even in the middle of a heated conversation at work and at home, pull yourself away from it for a second and ask yourself, what's really going on here? What are we really talking about? Because it's rarely about where you left your boots. And it's rarely about the misspelling in the second paragraph. Yes.

38:19It's interesting when you have those moments where you are arguing over like where to store the toothpicks or something that you sort of realize something else is going on Yeah, but I think it's also and like that's one of the reasons why I think long-term relationships To me are ultimately like there are a lot of work But they've ultimately been rewarding because you learn all this weird stuff about your partner and I think one of the hardest phases in my personal and professional life was when I was first cohabiting with the person who became my spouse. And we hadn't learned all that stuff yet. There was constant conflict about like, you know, you'd come home from a day of having made 300 decisions and they'd be like, what do you want for dinner? And you'd say, I don't care. And they'd be like, no, really? Yeah. Tell me what you really, what your heart desires. I'm like, I'd like to not be hungry now. That's what I desire. Like I need fuel to continue as a living organism.

39:14Like you end up having this argument, but then after a couple of those arguments, your partner learns that when you come home and you just say, I need to not be hungry now, where is food? I need food. They just like, okay, I'll order pizza. They learn not to press you for your innermost like desire in that moment. And things get easier as you then go along. And then there's the other thing that goes on, which is you go home. You really just want to sit down, feed your face and go to bed. But you have to have a conversation.

39:43or your spouse says, hey, could you help me chop the carrots? The answer is always sure. You just have to ask what's it gonna cost if I say no. Because what it costs if you say no is so much more than it costs if you say yes. And I'm not saying go along to get along. This is really under the heading of what's really important here.

40:19So we've been talking a lot about modern dual career couples, the difficulties and demands a couple's face today. We can also think about the longer arc of history here. So at least now, many women are in relationships where equality is at least an ideal. And another big change is that women today have careers that are strong enough to let us leave marriages when we want to. To remind ourselves just how far women have come in their work and home lives, we talked to Stephanie Coontz.

40:46She's a historian of family life at Evergreen State College and the author of Marriage, A History. We asked her about how coupledom has changed over time. So, Stephanie, thank you so much for making the time for this. Oh, my pleasure. So I thought a place to start would just be a little history lesson. What was our concept of love and marriage a hundred years ago, if a hundred years is the right time frame to talk about? And how is it different today?

41:12Well, I'd go back even further than 100 years because there have been so many changes in it. One of the things that we really need to understand is that for thousands of years marriage was really not about love. You know, we talked today about how you have to work at your marriage. People didn't work at their marriages, they worked in their marriages. Marriage was a way of acquiring useful in-laws, expanding the family labor force, organizing the family labor force, and love was considered to be a real interference with that, a very dangerous kind of thing. It was fine if you fell in love afterwards, but love was not particularly a good reason to get married. The institution of marriage used to be structured around women's complete economic dependence on men, right?

42:00Again, going back even further, women were not economically dependent on their husbands. In fact, husbands were very economically dependent on their wives. In colonial days, wives were not referred to as the gentle, the better half. They were referred to as yokemates and help meets. And for thousands of years, there was no such thing as a male breadwinner family. But there was a male boss in the family. And women were dependent upon their labor was taken from them. So in that sense, they were dependent. They didn't have the right to earn wages outside. And as you develop this new definition of love in the 19th century and the new definition of the male provider, gradually that began to be undermined. But for 150 years, women were basically legally, economically dependent upon men in ways

42:57that were not structured by saying, okay, the man or the boss, but were structured by this new idea that men had to take care of women because women couldn't take care of themselves and therefore women, it was in women's interest to let men run the businesses, take care of the money, et cetera. So it sounds like in a way, even though we now look back on...

43:22sort of Victorian notions of separate spheres and the angel in the house as being a way to kind of keep women down, sounds like that might have been better than being the yokemate whose labor was stolen from her. Well, yes, and it had contradictory effects. One of the interesting things about the...

43:41pre-modern, a definition of marriage, is that there was a gender hierarchy that had to do with your position, but rank. Your social class and your status outweighed your gender so that if you were an upper class woman whose husband was a way or who was an heiress, or who was a widow, you could exercise power over men as the boss of the head of household. So this new idea that the relationship between men and women is not a power relationship, but is a protection of women who are not capable of acting in the public sphere was a real setback for the exceptional woman who had been able to act in the public sphere and to exercise economic independence. So when did that start to change into what we're seeing today? A real change occurs in the 20th century as women enter the workforce and

44:40the society needs them in the workforce, but they want them also to be a reserve army of labor. They don't want them to compete with the men. So the ideology was you should work until you're married, or you can even work after you're married, as long as it's to help set up the family. And the advice books right up through the 1960s said to women, you should never have any real interest in your job, because you are going to quit it, and if you do happen to continue work after your...

45:10married, your husband will find that your work is competing with the deference and the love and the attention that you owe him. So where do you see us today with all of this? I mean, some of these echoes still sound very familiar to me. Which one of these do you still see in our conception of marriage and partnership and work today?

45:32You can see them in different forms. We should talk about some of the ideals about women that still affect us at work. But when you're talking about marriage and partnership, there's a really interesting set of ideals that I think get in the way of not only women gaining an equal spot in the workforce, but also in the way of men and women who increasingly want equality at home developing workable love relationships. And to explain that, we have to go back a little bit to this ideology that love was a union of opposites. This develops very strongly in the 19th century.

46:15becomes a way of saying, you know, here, marriage is still going to be absolutely central to our society because you need a soulmate. And the result is a development of love and an eroticization of difference that I think has become a real problem for us today as most people over the last 30 or 40 years have become really much more interested in having a partner who you share interests and talents with and and respect because you have so much in common rather than someone who's your opposite but men have learned over over that 150 years of the domestic spheres that they have to be strong, they have to be silent, they have to be powerful, they have to take the initiative. I tend to be a little more tolerant of even mansplaining because men under this regime were taught to believe that the way they showed their love was to provide for women, to protect women and to explain to women to teach them. Oh man, so much is now explained to me. Yeah.

47:24So, since our struggles to create these more egalitarian partnerships have such long roots, I'm wondering how can we create more egalitarian marriages if we're not really sure we know what that looks like? It sounds like we're trying to sort of paint a picture of something we've never seen. Well, that's one of the reasons that I think that historians tend to be more optimistic, I think, than some people who come along and say, How come we're not equal? One thing we have to remember is we've only been even interested in creating these egalitarian marriages really for most people over the last 40 years. You know, there's the glass half empty, glass half full thing. Well, it's a big glass and we have filled up a lot of it but there's still a ways to go.

48:14really are developing the idea that mutual respect is important and our challenge is to make sure that it becomes erotic and we're making tremendous progress that way. Just in the last 20 years, 20, 30 years, a lot of the things that were patterns in the era of specialization and loving your opposite have been reversed. It used to be that if a woman had more education than her husband, that was a risk factor for divorce. That's no longer true. It used to be that if she earned more than her husband, and you still hear people saying this, but the more recent research shows that in fact a woman who earns more than her husband, that does not raise the risk of divorce.

48:59It used to be that women with the most education were the least likely to marry. Now they're the most likely to marry and the least likely to divorce. And that means that men's attitudes have been changing along with women's, maybe not at all the same speed, but there have been tremendous changes. And we see that in the dynamics of modern marriages. So related to that, how well do you think men are supporting their wives today? And then vice versa.

49:29Well, I think we have made tremendous progress. I do think, as I said, we are now seeing this tremendous change in what men want out of a partner. They're much less threatened by high achievement and by capability than in the past. And in fact, many men find it very attractive. Men, I think, want to support their partners. You still have, though, There's two things going on. First of all, you still have a significant number of men who, despite their desire for equality in many areas, still expect that when push comes to shove in family life that the women will be the ones who step back and adjust their career to the needs of family life. But even the ones who would like to be involved find themselves caught between a rock and a hard place because, first of all, men

50:24still earn more than women and in fact over the past 20 years there's been this increase in overpay for overwork that is that people who work the longest hours not only get more money because they work longer hours they're actually paid higher hourly wages so there's huge penalties then in many professional families for a man who cuts back and huge incentives for him to continue the overwork, which puts the pressure on the woman. You know, before we let you go, I realize we've been awfully heteronormative in our conversation today. So I was wondering, do you know of any research that shows that there might be differences among same-sex partnerships? Do they have maybe healthier, more egalitarian partnerships, or are they replicating some of the things that we've seen in opposite-sex partnerships?

51:16There are some very important things that heterosexual couples can learn from same-sex couples. First of all, they tend to be more egalitarian, not necessarily by dividing things up 50-50 and counting who's done what, but more able to negotiate on the basis of not having these stereotypes about who should do what. John Gottman's research suggests that gay and lesbian couples tend to be better able to talk out problems to inject humor into them. And I think that may be because heterosexual couples are so oriented toward the couple, they don't have the kind of close friends that they can go to and get some of their other needs met. And therefore they're very dependent on marriage and very threatened by the idea of a fight.

52:10and they tend to get more defensive. What Gottman found in his lab was that the more a heterosexual couple discussed a problem, the angrier they got. But the more a same-sex couple discussed it, the less angry they got. And in some ways, I think that maybe...

52:29because there is this long tradition of communities and friendship outside the couple. Now, that can also undermine the couple if it's friendships that compete with the couple. So there's a balance to be made. But I think that one of the things that heterosexual couples can really learn from same-sex couples is how to step back from this anxiety about solving every problem immediately, to interject humor, to be able to recognize recognize that it's not the end of the world to have a fight. That's super interesting. Stephanie, thank you so much for spending some time with us. I know you've been really busy, and I really appreciate it. Oh, it's been a pleasure to chat with you. Thank you again. Thank you. That's our show. I'm Sarah Green Carmichael. I'm Nicole Torres, and our co-host Amy Bernstein is back in town and back with us next week. Our producer is Amanda Kersey. Our audio product manager is Adam Buffold.

53:31Kurt Niggish is our consulting editor, and Maureen Hoek is our supervising editor. Thank you everyone who's emailed to tell us what you think about the show and to share your own workplace stories. Hearing that you're finding our practical advice helpful means a lot to us. Please keep those emails coming. Women at work at hbr.org. We're also working on an episode about the advice that women get about work. So please write us an email about the best and worst advice you've been given, or send us a voice memo.

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