Women at Work - Dealing with the Feels After an Employee Quits

0:07I am feeling for my friends who manage teams right now because this phenomenon of the great resignation is hitting them really hard. What are you hearing from them? I hear a lot of stories about dreading the, can I talk to you for a moment? Or getting the invite from a beloved direct report that it's unclear why exactly they're setting up a meeting.

0:34And the sleepless nights of how do I make sure I don't lose anyone else on my team? I have to tell you, nothing strikes fear in my heart like the email, the subject line of which is, got a sack? I mean, that... It never takes a sack. I always want to say, I just want to say no. Yes, no, I don't. You know, all managers have gone through this and we know how...

1:02we're supposed to respond. And it's genuine. You want what's best for anyone on your team. You want them to be happy. You know that no employment situation is forever. But even though you know all of that intellectually, it still hurts. It still strikes home. I didn't realize how personally managers take it, which is so sad.

1:30for all my past managers who I've been like, bye. You're listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. I'm Amy Gallo. I'm Amy Bernstein. And I'm Emily Caulfield. Every time I see a manager calm and collected after somebody on their team quits, I wonder what are they actually thinking and feeling? Well, we're about to find out. You're going to hear from several managers, me included, about how we deal when someone leaves our team.

2:02We're starting with two women who opened up to me about their experiences of losing multiple employees. The first woman works in city government in the US. Typically she manages a team of seven or eight, but in 2020 two team members left within a couple months of each other. She'd actually been expecting the resignations both had been with the city for a long time and had let her know many months prior that they were searching for new jobs.

2:30But it was the next three that were not expected. Those happened in quick succession within a month. You know, those conversations were hard to swallow. It's just an emotional roller coaster because, you know, at first it was part of the job. People will leave, you know, this is part of being a manager. But then it started being like, okay, this is exhausting. And I've just learned to be quiet and listen. Take it all in.

3:00ask what their next opportunity is and let myself breathe in that space and not react in front of them because I definitely react but it's not good to do that in front of them and I usually touch base with my boss and say hey this person's leaving here are the facts and this is what I want to do moving forward or do you have another idea kind of game plan it out The resignation that hurt the most was the employee who left for a lower pain, but also lower stress job. Our workload and our capacity has just been overwhelming. And so it was really a cry for help that she can't sustain in this position any longer. And that really got to me emotionally, just because, you know, we have these monthly one-on-ones. And so

3:53to not recognize the signs that she was struggling or suffering even. And that, you know, I thought we were decent friends and still not recognizing that. Yeah. Did it make you wonder what other people on your team were feeling like that you weren't maybe seeing? Definitely. COVID, you know, has created this hybrid or remote work for us. And I'm a pretty good read on people. I usually know what's up.

4:22that kind of social awareness has disappeared with COVID. We've been doing a lot more in-person work now, and so it's definitely bringing it back to a better place. But yeah, definitely, I think there's a lot of that question in what does everyone else think? Especially because by that time that those three left, we had hired new people. And so they're coming in a month, two, three months into an organization saying, what?

4:52What am I getting myself into? Is there something wrong with this place? No, I promise. But maybe it is. I don't know. She's in it for the long haul, but that doesn't mean she wants the working conditions to stay the way they are. And fortunately, all those resignations, she said, led senior management to offer more support in making the workload more sustainable. They paused some projects and changed the budget mid-year to add a few new positions.

5:20For me emotionally, I broke down for that because I recognized that they recognize how much we were struggling. She's also making changes to the things that she can control. If we only expect people to stay two years, then we need to be more efficient with our onboarding. I need to spend way more time with people so I can understand their weaknesses or what they do or don't understand. For me to feel better about Did I do enough when someone does eventually leave? Because that will still happen. But did I put enough time in to onboard this person? Did I spend enough time to truly understand what makes them tick to make sure that they're getting all of the resources that they need to feel successful in the job? There's that feeling when someone quits because the work is too much and the pressure is too much. When you realize, yeah, it's been

6:21too much for all of us. And if this person can quit, why do I have to put up with this myself? I'm also totally stressed out. And once all your staff quits, then your extra overworked managers are going to be the most burnt out people of us all after this great resignation. I think that's exactly right, Emily. And that's actually what we heard from the second person.

6:46I spoke to was just how overwhelming the workload was when she lost so many members of her team. It started around about March of this year, which in the UK, that's when we'd been in a few months of quite heavy lockdown and you could see that people were really coming to the end of their tethers. And how many people just give us context? How many people do you manage and how many people quit? I have a direct team of six people of which at 1.4 had left the business. That was a really considerable impact on my life. Yeah. Were you expecting the four who quit to do so? No, definitely not. Yeah. What was your initial reaction? So it was a mix. There was some disappointment, disappointment that they were going, a bit of disappointment that I hadn't created an environment that was great for them to stay.

7:44But also, if I'm honest, a little panic of like, what am I going to do now? We have clients. I work in a service firm. We have to provide what we've said we will for clients. And that essentially meant me picking up a lot of things directly. Quite a lot of early mornings, late evenings, weekend working, giving up time, digging in and just doing things. Yeah. It sounds exhausting. Yes.

8:14Take us back to perhaps the most painful of the departures. How did you react when they told you they were leaving and what were you feeling inside at that moment? I would actually say it was the first. It almost felt like a bit of a cascade following that, but it was that first one that I think really triggered things. So I'm a believer that when you are surrounded by your team a lot of the time, you get a sense of when people aren't happy. You get a sense of when they may be off doing an interview. And when everyone is virtual, you just do not get that. Yeah. So when they had the conversation with me, which was obviously over that video call, it was a shock. I wasn't expecting it from this person. This was somebody that I was very invested in, very invested in their future, where they'd come from, where I thought they could go to. And I didn't expect it.

9:12and you have to maintain that face of like okay well that's really sad and can we do anything to keep you and my gosh this is disappointing and internally you're just like when did this happen and when were you doing this and how did i not pick this up and why didn't i know about this and why didn't you talk to me and um In retrospect, why not ask a few of those questions in a slightly less impassioned way? But yeah, there was a big contrast between how I felt I had to behave and then how I felt I had to then go and talk to other people in the business about this versus what I actually thought, which was like, oh, this is just dreadful. And I think this is going to trigger some other things happening off the back of this. And that's where we were.

10:01Describe the contrast a little bit more because you were saying you were expected to behave in one way and you actually felt a completely different way. Tell us a little bit more about that contrast. I think as a manager, you really have to show that you are supportive of people's decisions. Even when that decision is, I'm not going to work here anymore. And that's what I was trying to convey, like, okay, I understand this. But to be fair, I didn't understand it.

10:31I didn't actually understand quite why they had quit and why we couldn't give them what they were actually looking for. And I think it was a really very, very different feeling internally versus externally. And then because you're not in an office and you can't just go and grab a couple of people and talk about it, it then almost sort of compounded as in, you know, why did this happen and what could we've done? And that's pretty tough as well. Yeah. If you weren't...

10:57behaving the way you thought you were supposed to. What would you have said in that moment? I think I would have just been more like, you're really a star employee within the team. You know, I really rate what you're doing. I really think you have a massive opportunity to move forward. There's this and this and this. And can we just have a conversation over a glass of wine or something? Then just tell me more about why you were doing this just as a person, not as your manager yeah what would have been the harm of doing that in hindsight none may would have actually been great i think that's a great learning which is that you know you would have done that in an office environment you would have been like come on right we're going to go out at least for a coffee now have this chat and you cannot do that and

11:50I do think that's been another downside of being just on calls for the last 18 months is that you cannot as easily break through some of these barriers and emotions. Yeah. I mean, it almost sounds like you're saying that having to have these conversations virtually means you end up being less human. I think you can be. Yes. And I think that is partly...

12:17It's partly that work has become a little bit more robotic in some ways and like it is very much now like I have half an hour here and half an hour there and this call and then this call and to then recall or just remember that this is your team. This is people that you work with and to really bring out that human side, not just like get through the next thing and get through the next thing. Right, right. The two survivors on your team. Yes. I'm sorry to use that word but I think it's out. I know it's great.

12:46How did they feel? How did you manage their emotion about everything that was happening? Yeah. So spending more time actually trying to be a bit more human, trying to talk about things other than, great, this meeting is tomorrow. Have you done the deck? And the other thing I did was actually start to admit that I was feeling very stressed and that I was feeling that I'd really had to take on a lot and do the jobs of three to four people and that I actually just couldn't do that anymore.

13:14So I actually slowly started to delegate more things and actually get people involved in more things and have them realize how much was going on and how many things were actually behind the scenes that they didn't know about. And that's been very helpful all around. Were there other people at work, your boss, the remaining people on your team who you've talked to over the past? It sounds like almost six months now about.

13:41how you felt about these employees quitting and being so understaffed? Yes. And to be clear, my boss has been absolutely fantastic. I just got slightly stuck in that piece around. Sometimes it takes more time to hand things over than it does to just do it yourself. And I got very stuck in the just do it myself if i just do it myself i can do it quickly i can get it done but i actually had a huge amount of support from my boss and she very much was like look what can i take on or you know phone me if you just need to chat and i didn't really take her up on that and i would going forward i would actually just have more conversations that were just i need to download this or hey i have five competing priorities can you just

14:30Let me talk them through and help me prioritize them, for example. So just taking away some of this feeling that I have to make every decision. That's what I would do differently. Not feel that I have to make every single decision. Right, right. I imagine you were counting the days until you have a full team again. Yes.

14:51So over the next couple of weeks help is coming. I have people joining the team, which is really fantastic. I'm very excited. We have a lot of things in place to make them feel welcome and supported. I just feel so much lighter. I just, yeah, I just feel like it's going to be a really nice end to the year. I'm really happy to hear that things are going a lot better for her now and that things are looking up with her new employees.

15:24Yeah, it does sound like relief is on the way for her. Both my conversations with these women, I still had a lot of questions coming out of them. Like, how do you handle the guilt you feel when good employees leave? Like, how can you anticipate if and when people might leave and how to handle your boss's reaction? I mean, it sounded like the second woman in London I spoke to had a supportive boss, but What if you're afraid your boss is going to be mad or going to blame you? And, you know, I'm not a manager. Neither am I. But Amy, maybe you are. So Emily and I are going to step aside and let you talk with two other managers at HBR, Marine Hoke and Nicole Smith. The three of you collectively have a lot of experience managing people. And I'd imagine you all have some experience with people leaving. Yes. Yes, we do.

16:18Maureen's the editor of HBR.org and Nicole, who goes by Nikki, is HBR's editorial audience director. Thanks to you both for being here. Glad to be here. I'm so glad you invited me to this conversation. Nikki, let me start with you. You know, we all listen to the manager who is based in London. What stuck out to you from that? I think her interview was honest and transparent.

16:47in her shock and not knowing completely what to say and then having to gather herself. And so many of us are like that. We try to compose ourselves, but the truth is that we're human. We're managers, but we're human. And so we feel it when other people that we've built bonds with and souls ties to and spend day in and day out leave us. And the only human reaction is to be shocked, is to self-reflect, maybe even some self-doubt.

17:16and that self-reflection for me at least often involves asking myself how much of this was about me and how much of it really wasn't. How many times have we heard that phrase that people don't quit jobs, they quit bosses? So that we've almost been socialized to think about this and to believe this and whether it's true or not, it's almost like a go-to. Yes. What did I do to encourage for you to feel like you don't want to be here anymore? And the truth of the matter is there's a myriad of reasons that people could choose to move on from their current job, from their current organization. At the end of the day, you always wonder, was I a part of that decision? Yeah, I agree. It's really hard to separate out the personal.

17:57from the professional, even if you know, and I've done this myself, I've tried to step back and think about when I've left jobs in the past. It was because I was making my own decision. I wanted to do something different. I wanted to do something new. I certainly didn't think of it like I'm leaving because of my boss in those situations. But when you're on the other side of that table and if there's somebody who you've really invested in and you feel strongly about and you've...

18:22done what you can to make that job great for them. It's really hard to just be like, okay, well, this is just a business decision and there's no personal connection here that matters. And I think as I've progressed in my own career, I've had to realize I've had to remind myself that this is a job. And, you know, it's not always about you. It's not always personal. You know, I heard a phrase a couple of years ago that really stuck with me in that you can't put a changed person back into an unchanged environment. So if I'm responsible for changing that person, for developing that person, for growing that person, I also have to be mature enough and broad thinking enough to recognize that person is now changed. And so that means that environment may not suit that changed person anymore. And that kind of sues me when I think about the person coming and saying, I'm moving forward, I'm moving on. So there was an idea that came up.

19:19both in the story from the person who leads in the private sector in London and the woman who is based here in the U.S. and is in a government role, which is that it was very hard for them to pick up signals, particularly now, since we're not all together. We don't see each other. We can't observe each other. How did that hit your ears, Maureen? I mean, it's something I've been reflecting on a lot lately.

19:48that the ability to really listen to what someone's telling you, it is hard in the best of times, and it's even more, I think, just complicated in our hybrid world, because it's just harder to get a read on people sometimes when you're talking through a screen. I think that is still something that...

20:08requires time and patience and like an attention on your part as a manager. So I have tried to prioritize that especially, I think I always have, but especially through the time that we've been working at home. And I have quite a few direct reports. And so it's something that takes up a lot of my time. But no, I really felt like the ability to communicate and stay connected was going to be critical to my ability to manage people. So Marine, you said part of it is listening.

20:35How do you become a good listener? How do you know that you're doing that well? Yeah, I think to be a better listener requires asking good questions. I think that's part of being a good leader is not always trying to come in with the answer or the solution to everything, but asking people good questions and not trick questions or like questions to get them to be like, so have you been on any interviews lately? Or it's not that, but it's more like trying to really probe.

21:03not just like how they're doing with their work because they could be doing a great job with their work but it's more like how are they feeling about where they are in their career like what do they want to do like how are they thinking about the next three to five years like are you taking the time to ask them those questions are you just focused on just the work you're trying to get through that day. So one of the things that eventually occurs to you if someone on your team tells you that they're leaving is you gotta tell your boss and.

21:32For me, there's always a moment where I wonder, is this going to somehow bruise my reputation? Have you ever thought about that? Nikki, do you think about that? Well, I have selfishly thought about that. The succinct answer is yes. Anyone who I work for knows my employees equally as well as me. And I'm usually giving updates to my manager. So by that time, I'm hoping that I feel comfortable to say this person quit, this person said this is why they're quitting and maybe even beforehand when I've talked to my manager we've walked through that, maybe we've detected that, maybe we've tried to do something ahead of time to prevent that. So usually I don't think it's a surprise by that point because my manager and I have had that conversation. I will say if someone needs to be on alert and

22:28He or she knows that by that point. And just keeping that openness has helped make that conversation a lot easier. It's also opened the door for my manager to talk to my employee and see if they can have them open up in a way maybe they don't want to open up to me because I am their direct manager. So it's usually a little bit more collaborative by the time I've gotten to tell my manager this person's quit. How about in situations when you didn't see it coming?

22:54where you were blindsided and now you're gonna have to blindside your manager, your boss. Yeah, I've had to do that. And I remember there was one time I had to call my boss and I think he was technically on vacation. I remember he was driving somewhere and I said, I'm sorry, I have to tell you some bad news. I almost wondered if I should tell him to pull off the side of the road, but I didn't need to do that. But I was I've been so fortunate in these situations. I've been through where my manager has been totally like, we knew this person was a risk. We knew that this is something that might happen and like immediately pivots to, okay, what do we do from here? I've been on the receiving end of that phone call, not your phone call. But I have to say that my first response, my first instinct was to take care of the person who was calling me because I knew how painful.

23:50a call that was. And then how do we take care of the team? Because one thing I worry about a lot when someone leaves is the fabric of the team left behind. How do you guys think about that? Yeah, I think you need to manage, and ideally with the person who's decided to exit, how they want to communicate to people on the team. And hopefully if they're telling you they haven't already told.

24:16Also their 10 closest friends, you know what I mean like hopefully you're one of the first people to to get the news so that you can understand are there people they want to tell themselves and then I think with the team you want to be a leader in that moment and you want everyone to feel confident like yes this is a change but like we're going to see it through in the driver's seat we're going to get through this but on the other hand you don't want to act like this is no big deal so it's like kind of just saying like hey I know this is hard but you know, let's think about where we go from here. I think especially when the news is fresh, I think like once people have some time to digest the news and then you can kind of like move forward, when that news is fresh is when the hardest line to walk as a manager. I don't know, Nicky, have you handled that? Honestly, first of all, I think people have told their 10 closest friends that they're quitting. You're probably right. I think that

25:11If you are open and honest and conversational and not overly corporate, quite frankly, not overly structured and expressing how you feel, I think people get it that people decide to move on. It's not necessarily a reflection of just the culture or the boss or something like that. Right. One thing I've always believed in is really recognizing someone's contributions and acknowledging that in front of your team is so important.

25:38Even if you're feeling very blindsided, upset, discouraged, if you show that to the team and you don't recognize and thank that person for all the ways that they've made a difference, that's going to hit your team wrong. You're like, at that point, you need to put a little bit of whatever your personal feelings are aside and just recognize that person for all they've done and celebrate them a little bit as much as you can. And also, you want the person leaving to feel good about. Yeah.

26:06their time here and to feel proud and to feel appreciated. And you want everyone else on the team to know that people are valued, no matter what. Nikki, Maureen, thank you so much for joining me. Thanks for having me. Pleasure to be here. That's our show. I'm Amy Bernstein. I'm Emily Caulfield and I'm Amy Gallo. Our editorial and production team is Amanda Cursey, Maureen Hoek, Adam Buckholds, Rob Eckhart, Erica Truxler, Tina Toby Mack and Eleni Matta. Robin Moore composed this theme music. Can we meet for a quick sec? No, just kidding. Don't send that email.