Women at Work - Family Management: On the Cusp of Parenthood

0:02Kevin, what do you remember about the days right before Maisie was born? What were you doing, thinking, feeling? I was not focusing at work, I'll tell you that. I remember sitting at my desk and googling different scenarios. And the one scenario I was really concerned about was what would I do if I couldn't get Julie to the hospital on time? And that's something I really, really feared. And if I were in a movie or I was being cast in a movie, I would not be cast as the strong fireman that comes in and saves a day. I would definitely be cast as the hapless dad who's driving on the highway. Panicked? Yeah, yeah. I would not be able to handle delivering a baby on my own. That's fair. But in all seriousness, I was concerned about seeing my wife in pain. And I was also really worried about showing up for her when she needed me.

0:58the most. The way I looked at it, this was the Super Bowl of our relationship. And she was the one pushing out the baby. She was the one playing the game. All I had to do is feed her ice chips and cheer her on. I did not want to faint. Oh, Kesin. You know, it didn't take me long. Once we're in the hospital, I realized, oh, we're in a medical facility right here. We're surrounded by professionals. And there wasn't much I had to worry about.

1:19They had it covered. I had the same feeling. It's that idea of there are people here who know what they're doing. It's not all on me to get through this. I can have support. I did see Julie in a lot of pain and that was really hard. But once she got the epidural, we were in good shape. And the birth went well. Mom and baby were healthy. And it was great. That's awesome. Hey, Maisie, are you excited for your baby brother? Yeah. And so fast forward a few years later, you and your wife Julie had A baby boy, Willie. And in the days leading up to his birth, you kept an audio diary. Are you going to be a great big sister? No. You're not going to be a great big sister? No. No? Are you going to help eat in bottles? Yeah. Yeah? If he cries, he needs a bottle. I was much more chill when Willie came around, when Julie was pregnant. I forgot that she was pregnant sometimes. But we were so busy with a three-year-old and I was so busy at work.

2:17that I didn't have this existential dread and delight before Willy was born. Once I was a little closer to his birth, I did start to get really nervous. It's currently Wednesday morning. We think possibly a mommy's water broke. We're not sure. We're all very anxious. We're ready to get the show on the road. Who knows, in a few hours, I could have another beautiful little weirdo to take care of.

2:44It's just amazing how I think with the second you already have answers to so many of the unknowns and you just feel so much more prepared in a way that you can't.

2:56you can't prepare unless you've gone through it right so yeah it's a completely different experience i mean right down to the minutia like how am i gonna make the milk you know how does a pump work like all these things i didn't know and then you have your second and all of that learning curve you've gone through it and you don't realize you've gone through it until mark came and i was like oh this is i know this is what you do now yeah we felt the same with mazy we were obsessed with all the details before she was born of what to do how to change a diaper how to pump and After she was born it was it was a punch to the face because all those tactical things are pretty easy to learn but it's the emotional experience. Exactly. And trying to balance work in life and trying to do well at work when you're incredibly tired. Like those are the things that are that are really hard to go through the first time. I am gonna say something. Are you gonna hold it? Yeah. Don't press any of the buttons. Come here. Okay.

3:55What do you do today? Oh, I did a lot of work. I woke up very early as a father of two, you know, I've been in this game for You know four plus years and I forget what it's like to Have never gone through this experience before Absolutely. I think Just the anticipation of knowing the baby's coming any minute and you're finally going to meet your baby. You know, all of that optimism, all of that just unknown. It's such a unique point in history in your own personal life. It's hard to even explain the feelings that are going through your mind, which is why I jumped at the opportunity to speak with someone on the brink of parenthood. A few days before our colleague, Eleni Mada's due date, she was busy preparing to take parental leave a few months away from her multimedia producer work.

4:51but she took a quick break to tell me the thoughts and feelings going through her mind. And Lainey's now the mother of a baby girl I'm happy to report. We spoke over video in March, and she shared with me her hopes, concerns and questions about how this baby's arrival was about to change her life.

5:10Eleni, it is so nice to see you. During this very exciting time, I'm sure you are counting down the days. Yeah, literally. I'm so curious as to when she's going to come. Yes. Because she's so ready, like in position. She's so in position, so I'm just like nervous. Any sort of pain or movement I feel.

5:37I'm like thinking in my head like, is this it? Is this what's happening? Is she deciding now that this is when she's coming and it's like, am I prepared? Are you working up until like, what is their plan for work right now? To work up until the day she decides to... Okay. I mean, I think I'm very fortunate in a sense that it's mostly just me doing check-ins, making sure nobody needs anything from me, doing meetings to make sure that...

6:03Whatever I have is transitioning to the next person or any sort of unfinished business is finished I really appreciate this and I think it's appropriate like this calm before the storm Did you feel that way when you were heading out like things were kind of slowing down or did you feel that?

6:32you know the first baby I was basically what you're describing like trying to wrap everything up but also feeling like there's this calm before the storm I have no idea what's about to happen and it's all so unknown whereas with Mark that's my baby boy almost to a fault. I feel like I almost waited too long. I was basically in labor and I was still going. That is not a lesson I want to impart. Being at home, having no boundaries, almost helped that happen. You know, I almost was like, oh, this isn't labor. This is just, you know, those weird pains that you have. And then I'm like, no, this is getting worse and worse. That's what I'm afraid of. That's, that's literally what I'm afraid of. Like, oh, this feels uncomfortable. Right. But I don't know if this is just like the uncomfort that I've been feeling the past couple of days or

7:15is this like the uncomfortable that I have to watch out for. So I will say, when it really is kicking into high gear, you will know. So don't worry about that. Yeah, that's what I've been told. I will definitely help out. Yes. In terms of preparing for leave remotely, knowing that you're going to be on leave when everybody's remote and not knowing when or if we'll be back in the office when you do come back.

7:38I'm curious how you're thinking about all of that as well. I see it going like 50-50. I either want to stay home and just so I can be around her all the time but I feel like that may come with some difficulties emotionally if I start working from home and she's like in another room and so the other side is like let me just go to work so I can have a different change of pace because I've been inside for the past like my entire pregnancy have just been inside, like not isolated, but...

8:11I'm considered vulnerable so I can't like do things and I'm an extrovert like I love being around people and I love talking to you know what I mean like all I can say is that you cannot prepare for how you'll be feeling and I think daily that changes too like one day you will want to be I think you know have a clear boundary and be like I just want to get this thing done without having to worry about why she's crying and and then the next minute you're gonna absolutely not want to leave. So it's a constant fluid changing evolving phase as is I guess all of parenthood really. I want to just go back to what you were saying too in terms of what it will be like when she arrives and whether you want to go to the office or be home and what that will look like and I'm grateful that I gave it time. And I think this especially with Claire my first everything felt so

9:05So hard at the beginning and at that point obviously we were at work sitting at my desk missing her and it was so easy Just to say like I can't do this. It's way too hard I feel way too conflicted in terms of where I should be and how I should be as a mom, as a worker. And what has helped me is taking a step back and thinking more holistically about who I am and even just more long-term about who I want to be. And there is this metric. Daisy Dowling mentions it actually in one of her articles and she talks about using today plus 20 years thinking.

9:39which I find really helpful. And it basically means that you're thinking 20 years from now in terms of the problem. So like, if you're missing your child, you're thinking, wait, I'm missing her right now, but 20 years from now, what will she be thinking about me sticking it out and working hard and being an example for her?

9:57It's been interesting. It's been like an interesting like mind game trying to get through the days because I will say immediate problems and challenges are constant so it's helpful to kind of take a step back and to think more broadly about like where am I and where am I going and how can I do this as a working mom. Yeah and a lot of like who am I?

10:22Yes, yes. Who am I? What am I doing? Especially as a first-time mom, I feel like it's absolutely a lot. If you had to pinpoint what are you most nervous about in terms of having the baby and work together? My biggest worry is balancing and setting boundaries because I feel like I already know that I'm going to need time past maternity leave.

10:51to really get used to that transition. It's like starting a new job like you don't really expect you to be absolutely perfect at your role and know all the procedures and rules and who to talk to and what your job actually consists of for only three months. You know so it's kind of trying to figure out the balance of okay.

11:16I have to now start to work and get back into gear. And then I have to stop myself from being like, okay, let's get back to where I left. Like I actually have to be like, I don't want to go back to where I left because now things are different. I have a different mentality and maybe my ideas are different. So there's, there's that. And then there's just sending boundaries with like other people at work and my close knit of just I can't do that right now or I'm kind of tired or and that was something I needed to practice during this whole working from home and then being pregnant and a lot of other things of like being okay with saying like sorry I can't do that or like I don't want my camera on or like yeah sorry not sorry yes exactly I need some space that's my biggest worry is just

12:10Setting up boundaries and also listening to myself and saying like can I actually do this or is. This idea or this task sounds really good in theory but I have to actually think like do I have the mental energy or the physical energy to do this or yes I mean everything you're saying resonates so much with me because I feel like. It's a constant struggle in terms of figuring out what you want to project almost right because it is a vulnerable place to say.

12:38You know what? I can't get it done. I actually have a sick baby at home and I can't focus on this and when Claire went to daycare right when I went back to work and I just dealt with one illness after another with her and I feel like there's this pressure to be right back to where you were before and able to kind of run with it and you feel like I can't actually because there's one curve ball after another when you have a child and you can't predict what's going to happen and to your point it's something to think about. And I also will say something that you can't prepare for. If I could just tell you one thing, it's almost like you're going to be fantastic. You're going to do great. It's just you need to be able to be in that place. And then once you're in that place, just giving yourself the space to do what you need in order to feel like you are doing the best that you can. Yeah, it's just hard because I feel like you could feel guilty on two sides. Like you could feel guilty towards your job.

13:33for like, yeah, okay, you're being so flexible with me, and you're letting me have this time, but like, there's a task that needs to be done that you probably need my input on, or you probably need me to look at, and I'm sorry I can't do it, but like, ugh, like you feel guilty that you're not giving them time, but then once you give them time, you feel guilty that you're not giving your kid time, and they want, you know, it's like, you're balancing like two different worlds, one that you've become already so accustomed to before, and one that you are learning how to live now. Yes. But Erika, did you feel guilty at all? Like, did you have that weird balancing act? Did you feel any guilt? Yes. Oh my goodness, Eleni, yes. I so wish that I could tell you that it doesn't happen and that it's easier than you think it will be.

14:29I have to admit that it was all, I hate to be the Debbie Downer, but harder than I thought it was going to be. I really had this feeling, you know, before I had Claire where I was like, you know what? I'm going to get my ducks in a row. I'm going to get the childcare. I'm going to get everything I need set up and I'll be able to go into the office and I'll be able to do what I need to do. And I really didn't prepare or know just the emotional aspect of it was so big for me in terms of feeling that just a real guilt for not being with her and it was compounded by the fact that my daughter and you know she's three so she's still strong willed but she wasn't eating so she wouldn't take a bottle during the day at daycare so I was dealing with a child that wasn't eating during the day and so was eating all night and

15:18it really felt like I wasn't succeeding in either department because I had a baby that was starving when I'd come pick her up at work. I was exhausted because I was awake all night. So I was functioning on like two hours of sleep probably my first six months back to work. It was a lot harder and the guilt and the constant feeling like you described of I'm not doing my job well enough. I'm not being a good enough of a mom. And I think what has helped me and I know we've published a number of articles on this has been reframing it. So instead of looking at it as being an either or looking at as more of an expansion of who you are, it's not like I'm a good mom, you know, and I'm a bad worker or vice versa. It's just I'm expanded my role to be fuller and more whole. And again, I will say what really helped me was I kept telling myself, think longterm, think longterm, like right now this is.

16:12very easy to make a decision based off of how I'm feeling in this moment, but try to think long term. And that really did help me get through the hardest days. Wow. That is like the complete opposite of what I'm like learning how to think, which is crazy. Oh my, but did you feel like now that you're working, I mean, the environment is different. You're not commuting to work anymore. Like your son is there.

16:37And so is my toddler. Yeah, you can see your kids at any time that you have a break or if there's anything on your schedule. Was that feeling the same? Transitioning working from home or did it feel a little bit different? So it's immensely different. The biggest silver lining has been being able to just close the door and be in my room and be able to work this way knowing that I'll see the kids basically as soon as I'm finished working.

17:04The cons, you know, the cons of just having the noise and the distraction at the beginning has, you know, it takes a toll emotionally. I will say like the transition to working with the nanny who's fantastic, like truly a fantastic, fantastic person. She did everything she could to make the transition easier, but it still was tough. My daughter was still screaming, screaming, screaming her head off every time I had to come upstairs or every time, you know, I came down for lunch and I had to come upstairs. We were dealing with full on.

17:29the world is ending screaming for over an hour. And just the wrenching feeling of having to close the door and put on noise canceling headphones knowing that she's at the bottom of the stairs wanting to come in. It's like unnatural, right? It's unnatural for a mom to have to do that. And I'm sure Claire, I don't want to think about it, but I'm sure she was screaming.

17:51So much at daycare when she was refusing the bottle, but in some ways it was more abstract, right? I didn't see her screaming. I was at work. I had a boundary. I was thinking about her, but it wasn't in my face as it is right now. So that's all the negative I would say in terms of like how hard it has been. But the major positive is that I'm able to nurse Mark. I'm not dealing with all of the pumping and the storing of the milk and the.

18:16you know, with Claire I got mastitis right away. I wasn't making enough. My supply dipped. Like all those things that can happen going back into the office didn't happen this time around. And it's purely because I have been able to be home. So I would say that's a major silver lining to all of this that I wouldn't have predicted. How are you thinking about your first few months back at work? Have you thought about re-entry? I'm just curious where your mind is at thinking about once the little baby is actually here. I don't know. I'm honest with you.

18:46It's too much. Well, I just want to go with the flow so bad. So I want to be like, okay, I want to go in and I want to at least do these two or three things to sort of help me transition back. But that's it. Like I remember even trying to figure out how to manage working from home. I remember one person told me like well I just write a to-do list of this is like the one thing I'm going to do that day and if I get that done then that's cool I'm like you know what like that would be my mentality throughout the entire thing like I love my position I love my job I love storytelling I love creating content I'm excited to see what having a daughter is going to be like in terms of thinking differently and how to make people feel more connected and

19:39creating that relatability for others. Helene, I just want to say thank you so much for taking the time, the precious few minutes, days that you have before a new baby arrives. Thank you so much, Helene. No, this has been awesome. Claire, I have a question for you. What do you think mommy's doing upstairs when she's doing her podcast? What is she doing? I talk to a walk finder. Am I talking into? My coffee.

20:14A microphone? Maisie, come over here for a second. What do you think about Daddy and his podcast? Boring. What would I do to make it less boring? Could I sing? What song should I sing? Next time on the show, we hear from a couple in Israel.

20:45where the majority of people have been vaccinated against COVID-19. Mom's a child psychologist and dad's an infectious disease doctor. They describe how their family is adjusting to society slowly reopening there. And they offer advice for other parents soon to be managing that same transition. How do you imagine your life changing as more people get vaccinated and post-pandemic working parenthood take shape? Which expected changes do you eagerly await and which are you dreading?

21:18Tell us by calling 617-783-7861 and leaving a voicemail message. Please include your name, country, and industry. We'll play several of the messages we receive in next week's show.

21:50Is there anything else you want to tell my work friends or anybody listening to this podcast do you want to say?