Women at Work - Forging Ahead — or Plowing Through

0:02For me, some of the most powerful moments of 2020 and 2021 have been when listeners were on here detailing the personal impact of mega large-scale changes. In one episode, we heard women who lost work reflect on the loss, not only of income, but also a sense of self. In another episode, women new to the workforce shared their struggles to gain a foothold. And in another, we heard women call out, the fact that corporate promises to fight racism had had little positive impact on their experiences as Black employees. These reality checks and insights aren't especially valued part of this show, as are the problem-solving skills and resilience that come through in each woman's story. Listening helps me better appreciate different circumstances and perspectives, and it stirs up a lot of self-reflection. How did I end up managing that last big life hurdle?

0:58With another eventful year nearly over, the Amy's and I are still processing the ups and downs and also considering how to forge ahead. To get us going, I reconnected with three past guests to hear where they're at, how they made it through 2021, and what they want to do next. But first, here's a recap of where they each were personally and professionally in 2020. So my name is Emily Louise Robinson. I teach piano and voice.

1:30and I am a member of the Houston Grand Opera Chorus as well as a freelance opera singer. What I love about singing opera, it is utterly and completely consuming. There's not room for any dialogue in your brain. Your brain just is full. It's full of the physical, it's full of the mental, it's full of, am I with the orchestra? It's all consuming. And I find that now, There's very little that I do that is all-consuming. And I think that's the greatest loss. The struggle's not about the job. The struggle's about meaning. Am I a singer if I'm not singing? What am I if I'm not doing this thing that I've been struggling and striving for for 15 years of my life? My name is Rakaia. I'm based out of the UK.

2:37and I'm currently working in the intelligent automation, so basically the tech industry. I have, since I started working about eight years ago, continuously been like, hey, there are some cultural issues here, casual racism, microaggressions. I definitely want to be working for myself in the couple of years, like looking wider at the tech industry.

3:03there just needs to be more diverse voices and more diverse voices with influence. My name is Nina Jones and I am a senior consultant in the employee experience team at Engine and I feel like I'm just really starting out in my career. It's been interesting because I have been furloughed from my role and that means that for the last two months I haven't been working and That's been, I guess, an obstacle for me because in my plan of the year, this was the time that I was going to get really good at my job. I was going to get loads of client experience and I was going to really try and build up my reputation and engine. So that was them in 2020. Let's hear how they're doing now. Rukhaya, Nina, Emily, thank you so much for coming back on the show. Could you each describe just big picture where you were when you spoke to us last?

4:01in your career and in your head and where you're at now. Rukai, we can start with you. Listening back to where I was to a degree, I felt stuck in my career. I think I had made a couple of lateral moves. Now I've been able to become a manager for the first time, still at the same company, which has been interesting. But I also burnt out. I only came back to work beginning of November, after being off.

4:31I will also say, you know, in 2021, like personally, I'm also a full-time carer for a member that is terminally ill. So my headspace is kind of figuring things out. Yeah, I want to hear more about that. Nina, why don't you tell us where you were then and where you are now?

4:53So we last spoke in June 2020 and I was about six months into a new job in a consultancy working in employee experience. But I was also on furlough because the pandemic had had a big impact on our work and I was doing a little bit of pro bono work but really just trying to think of how I could keep developing and hopefully get brought back to work.

5:17I did come back to work but actually into a new role I was offered an opportunity to come back and try a different role in the company and subsequent to that I actually had changed into doing that role full-time partly also because my company decided to take their difficulties and actually to exit their employee experience research practice so I kind of had to but I was also enjoying the work that I've come back to do anyway so it did make sense as a career move at the time and yeah I'm about 18 months now into my new role as a change and delivery consultant and I'm working on some some big government projects in the UK. So it's been an interesting 18 months. Yeah. Emily, how about you? Well, when we last spoke, we were very much at home and not performing because performing was one of those last things to come back and life is so normal now.

6:13We're performing again at the opera. We're in the shows. We've finished Carmen. We're starting up dialogues of the Carmelites, and we're like, we're full back into it. And that's fantastic. That is. Wow. It sounds like everyone has made important steps in your career this year. And also, it hasn't been a very easy year. Rukae, I want to ask you, because you were on our episode about what's changed or not changed for black women at work.

6:41In 2021, what have you learned about the pace at which racial justice work is done inside companies, in particular inside your company? I don't think much has changed, quite frankly. I think there's more eyes on it, but I don't think that we're seeing the change that we maybe wanted to or need to. Right.

7:07You mentioned when you last were on the show that you were stepping away from the conversations around DEI for your own mental health. And I'm curious if you've stepped back into those conversations or if you've continued to keep your distance. I tried to step back in just because there was a recent incident, but I also think that part of the reason that I burnt out is I was pushing for change that we weren't ready for.

7:36So being promoted into a managerial position was great. However, the system wasn't set up for someone like me to be a manager. So what does that mean when I'm in these rooms and I'm hearing these things and I'm noticing the missing voices? And I'm flagging things where I'm often one of two women, one of two people of color. I wasn't meant to be in this position. I was never meant to be in the room.

8:05What was interesting in earlier in the year, we had worked with this company. They were a consulting company and I arguably was producing my best work. They were amazing and brilliant and it was such a safe environment and they unlocked all this innovation and they were so willing to listen and so willing to hear all of me and bring all of me into the room and then they left as consultants do and all of a sudden I found myself really struggling because you have to pull your guard back up. There's so much work in protecting yourself. And I think that other consultancy, we're ready for someone like me. We're ready for someone that looked like me and thought like me. My company's not. So what was causing me to burn out was that I was not able to bring enough of myself to work. I had to be so guarded and so on that it just tired me and

9:04to a degree continues to tire me. So, to be honest, I'm still kind of figuring out what does a healthy rakaia in a corporate world look like. Yeah. Nina, I want to ask you...

9:20Last time we spoke you talked a lot about what you're thinking about for the future. How has that move affected your career plan and your vision for what you're going to do? Yeah, so I was listening to the episode and the second half where you talked to Hannah, the expert around how women who are just starting their careers, what things they should be thinking about.

9:43I realise all of her advice is so helpful and actually I'd recommend anyone go back and listen to that episode because it's been a really good reminder. She speaks about not sort of being passive and maybe setting on cruise control and how we kind of always need to be in touch with the concept of reimagining our careers. And I think potentially a little bit fell into, well, this is my new career kind of head down off I go. But I do think I need to spend a little bit of time now.

10:13thinking what my career looks like because I had joined this company sort of six months before I went on furlough with the idea of becoming an employee experience specialist and it had been a mover to consulting and I was really excited and I thought that was where I wanted to be.

10:28I guess I didn't really make the decision to move across into change and delivery and these kind of this different kind of consulting and while I am enjoying it I haven't really thought through what the long-term vision looks like and that's definitely something that I probably keep putting off a little bit thinking that there'll be a better time to do it but really I think even though I'm enjoying the day-to-day there is that kind of feeling that I don't really know what.

10:57this looks like as a specialism anymore, which I guess day to day you can kind of keep going because there's always something happening day to day. Lots to do, right? Yeah, there's loads to do. But kind of like Hannah said, she said that some people kind of look up and realize they were climbing the wrong ladder. So that's what I really want to make sure I want to take Hannah's advice and kind of actually sort of step back a bit and think about it.

11:24Yeah, we talked in another episode this season about the pause that the pandemic created for so many of us. You know, to think about, is this really what I want to be doing? And yet also, listening to you all about how much things sped up as well, right? It was this pause, but then things really, for lots of people, it was a time of just so much that they had to do personally and professionally. And it's hard to find that time to lift up their head.

11:52And Emily Louise, you had described this period before March 2020. Like the beginning of 2020 has been incredibly busy, the busiest time. And then any for a performer like you and opera singer, everything just halted. Describe a little bit where your career is right at this moment. Yeah, opera is somehow 100% back. And...

12:13In many ways it feels so normal and I have to step back to realize how weird it actually is because it's not normal. We're getting COVID PCR tests once a week, twice a week, three times a week depending on what part of the production we're in. We're singing in masks literally until the final dress rehearsal on stage. I have this shocking moment.

12:40where we all took off our masks for the first time and you're in the lights and in the light you can see certain things that you don't necessarily see without stage light so it's very harsh light coming from the front and from the sides and what you can really see is the spit flying out of people's mouths and I had this moment where we had finally taken off our masks and there was spit flying I was like oh my god I scream and spit in other people's face as a living. I cannot believe this is my job. This is so dangerous. Like, like there's so much in the air. And that's why the company has been so careful. But yeah, it's this weird balance of like, it's totally normal and it's totally weird. Yes, right.

13:33I will say that what's changed is normally at this time of year I would be flying to New York like every week for an audition doing dozens of auditions and I just sat out this round and I don't know if part of that is like I'm feeling my age in where I am in my career and I'd rather sing at home but very interestingly to what Nina was saying about climbing the wrong ladder I had a moment where I was like Is this solo career freelance singing the latter I want to be climbing? Because it means you're away from home. It means you're making erratic money. I mean this travel to audition, it's self-financed, right? So it's just a lot of and and and stacking. And I thought to myself, where can I audition? So my new goal is where can I audition to be a full-time chorister?

14:32as like a career with a salary. Houston Grand Opera, I think is honestly one of the best opera courses in the world, but it's contract by contract. And I'm doing a full season with them right now, but it's not a full-time job. It's evening rehearsals, and I do need to teach and I do need my church job. And here I am in my 30s working three jobs, which is fine, but it's also a lot.

15:01You know? Yeah. Gosh, I hear all three of you say there have been important steps. Rukhaya, you became a manager. Nina, you got this new job. Didn't stay on furlough. Emily, you're back. But also questioning, is this really what I want to do? And Emily Louise, we did an episode actually last week about freelancers and the challenges they face, and in particular the existential challenges. And I remember so clearly from the last time you were on Our show, as you said, who am I if I'm not singing? Am I a singer? And how has the way you see yourself and presented yourself in the world changed in 2021? You know, I think, ultimately, I have a deep-seated knowledge that I am a singer and always will be a singer. And I think somehow that settled in.

16:00because I do other things that define me as like the things that bring me joy because I'm also an avid reader. Emily Louise, the avid reader. I'm also a mountain biker. Emily Louise, the mountain biker, right? But like at the core of this is that I sing and that I am very good at it and being hired to do it doesn't make me good at it.

16:28I'm good at it, regardless. You know, while we're talking about working for ourselves and being entrepreneurs, I wanted to follow up because you had mentioned maybe someday an ultimate goal would be to work for yourself, to run your own business. Where is your thinking on being an employee versus being your own boss? I think it's definitely still a dream. Definitely still what I'm working towards. Definitely.

16:56having this managerial position, what's been amazing and fascinating and wonderful is that you could really influence what the team spirit is. You can be that safe space. You can truly try to create what you want and what you want to see and what you want to feel. And I think just the ability to even do that kind of makes me know and makes me...

17:23sure that I want to be able to do that and reach more people. Once again, because I'm also a carer for someone who's terminal, my legacy is something I'm thinking about and you only have this life and it's so short and it's so precious that I want as many people to feel as safe as possible in as many spaces.

17:47Rukhaya, Nina, Emily, do you have any questions for each other as you've been listening to one another? Is there anything you want to ask? I've got a question. What do you think the biggest difference has been in the people you are now versus the people you were pre the pandemic? Nina, do you want to go? You can go. Okay. So I actually, I was scrolling through my phone and saw a photo of myself. I had taken a selfie.

18:18at the Ripley Greer Studio which is one of the audition studios in New York City. I think it was 2018. And I looked at myself and I went, wow, I missed that girl. She was working so hard and she was so motivated and I missed that girl. But I also was so, so tired. So tired because auditioning is brutal.

18:48You go, you walk into a room, you sing for five to ten minutes, and then you may never hear from them again, right? And you physically have to get yourself to the city. You physically have to pay for your flight, right? There's just so many ands, ands, ands, ands, ands. And being in New York City, I love New York City, but it's not like a relaxing experience, right?

19:12But the hustle, I respect the hustle of 2018 Emily Robinson. She was motivated and I am motivated in different ways now. I've read over 70 books this year. I'm so jealous. 2018 Emily didn't have time for that. I think I've mellowed out a little bit, but I do mourn my past self for sure.

19:41Yeah, I think on reflection I guess the pandemic was the first big event that's happened to me in my career in terms of like an external force that's had an impact. I think before then I'd been quite lucky to have had quite a smooth smooth as anything can be from university into a grad job into like the next grad job and it's made me a bit more appreciative of those kind of curveballs and this is a massive curveball that happened to everyone and I guess it's made me yeah a bit more appreciative of the things that can happen that you're not expecting like I feel a little bit a tiny bit wiser I guess for the fact that those things can happen but

20:25a little less of that sort of swagger that you might have a few years in just thinking, yeah, the world's my oyster right now, kind of a couple of years on my career ladder and just thinking, was this where I thought, gradually, like with her big idea of where she'd be would be probably not. And so maybe I should try and get a little bit more of that fire back to sort of get where I want to be. Rukair, how about you? What's the biggest difference?

20:54I think, like, enjoying the small things, you know, for me, weirdly, the pandemic won't have been, like, the defining. It will be, like, the loss of my family member. So, you know, I think we've all had to appreciate the sanctity of life, I think, in a different way. Yeah, enjoying the small things and enjoying the silences with people. Yeah. Yeah. Rick, I have to tell you that I lost a dear family member over the Thanksgiving holiday, which was about 10 days ago, and everything you're saying about legacy and just how it refocuses you. And, you know, it's so true that this pandemic has made everything sort of feel for me just closer to the surface in terms of emotions, and I just don't have as much energy and time to do

21:49the things that 2018 Emily did or 2018 Amy did right like I just don't have that that much energy but I think the losses we've all had or are going to have have just made everything crystal clear in terms of what matters and then it's a matter of actually taking the steps to to focus on those things because that's harder right we can know what matters but sometimes still we're running around with you know everything to do.

22:16And I just appreciate your candor about your caretaking responsibility and what it means and how it shaped your life because it's really resonating with me at this particular moment. Thank you and sorry for your loss. Thank you. Thank you. So this is our last episode of the season. We're approaching the end of the year here. We're starting to think about what next year is going to bring and I'm curious for you all, what are you going to be focused on?

22:45What are you hoping for in the coming year? Nina, you want to start? Yeah, I can go. So for me, I do really like to and I'm going to commit to it publicly on the podcast to really carve out that space to figure out. There's no more putting it off. I can't keep my head in the sand for much longer to really say like, has this career change been a good move for me? Is this where I want to focus and actually how am I going to build?

23:12that picture and that confidence back up in that. So then I can just for a minute put that decision to bed a bit and focus rather than having this sort of kind of recurring thing of being like, ah, did I make, didn't really make this decision? Where does this go? What does this mean for me? Actually take that time over the Christmas break.

23:32and then I guess sort of see what that plan looks like and obviously sort of take into account all the things that we've I guess said we've learned which I really resonate with about kind of the important things as well because I think that kind of understanding and appreciation also kind of I guess where you place your job like it isn't the be all and end all sometimes so while I am going to say I'm going to commit to it I'm also also going to keep that perspective in mind of yeah there are I think bigger things that matter.

24:00So not too much pressure, but enough pressure so I actually do it. We may all need to be back on this call in six months or so and just see where we all are. Emily or Rick, who wants to go? Yeah. So for me, it's to make sure and reevaluate that I have not paused too much, that I have not allowed myself to become comfortable in the things that I'm doing.

24:28to the degree that it means that I'm no longer pushing forward for something more. And I think it's okay to want more and I want to allow myself to want more, but more is uncomfortable because in my case, more would mean moving cities, moving countries, completely changing the course of my life. And that's scary.

24:58Is the scary worth it? So I think that's what I really need to take a hard look at and I don't know the best way to make that decision or evaluate that for myself. But little by little, I think perhaps I can get a clear idea about that. Yeah, is the scary worth it? That's a great thing to ponder. Yeah, I think for me, happiness.

25:27I think 2022, but definitely. And specifically in my work life, what does it, what does a happy Rakaia in her work life? But I also want to be making a difference in the way that I want to, I want, I want to be creating safety for people who are underrepresented, specifically in the tech industry, because that's the industry I work in. And I feel like there's so much opportunity. Yeah. Well, I'm sincerely, deeply hoping that all of you and all of our listeners get happiness, a chance to reflect, and the opportunity to try really scary things next year. So thank you all so much. I really can't tell you how much this conversation has meant to me at this particular moment. So thanks so much for your candor and for sharing your experiences. Thank you, Amy. Thank you, Amy. Thank you. So I thought that Rukhaya

26:27Emily and Nina raised some really important questions, ones I could relate to, like that one about, am I really on the right ladder? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like just to, you know, you're putting one step in front of the other, right? You're climbing each rung, but you're sort of looking around going, do I really want to be here? Is this, I mean, that for me to find a lot of what 2021 was about was like, I was putting one foot in front of the other.

26:57I was moving forward, but I wasn't so sure about the goal anymore Speaking of questions that resonate that question of like is the scary worth it I mean that is if we're reflecting on this year and wondering where are we moving toward the right goal and we realized we're not which I think Emily Louise Realized the amount of effort and risk you have to take to get on the path you want The stakes feel high right now. Can you handle the rejection that could come up? Or could you handle the new challenges that a new job could bring? The scary doesn't always feel worth it when life is harder. It makes me grateful I've not...

27:44been a career coach or a therapist this year. Because I just feel like my advice to people would be like, just do what's easiest. Don't take any risks. Don't make it any more complicated than it needs to be. And yet, I mean, all three of these women and many of the people in our lives are taking risks, are making big changes, are finding ways to forge ahead, even if it's so terribly uncomfortable. And I like that Rukia reflected on what does a healthy, happy Rukia look like in a corporate job. It made me think about what I need. I wonder if you guys had a similar thought when you heard her say that. Yeah, when I heard her say that, I was like, oh, I so want to see a healthy, happy Rukia. I want that to be realized. And I also, it gave me a little bit of, I don't know, the shivers because I was like,

28:40Ooh, do I know what a happy, healthy Amy looks like? That's a big question. Yeah. That's a really big question. And one that I don't think we stopped to ponder. Who has had the time in the last two years to reflect on that question? First of all, it's such a brilliantly framed question, right? Yeah. Emily, do you feel like you have the space to reflect, either on whether you're on the right ladder or what happy, healthy Emily looks like? Currently, I don't.

29:10like hearing from all of these women, I'm like, I have external factors in my life that I feel like are taking up so much space that make it hard for me to really give a lot of attention to thinking about my career trajectory. And so I'm just like gonna do the things I need to do today and do the things I need to do tomorrow. And hopefully that will add up to a career that is happy and healthy. What about you? I feel like I have no...

29:38I mean, I feel like I barely have space to get the things done today. I also, I think there's part of it. The reflection I think will be painful because I do think the past two years have been full of grief and loss. And to ask myself what I want next, what does the future look like? What do I want out of life? I think requires processing.

30:07That grief and loss in a way that I'm not quite ready for yeah, although I so You you guys know I recently lost my mom and I will tell you it does Force you to do the reflection we've been talking about the what what's important to me? I mean first of all you get a very strong sense that Life isn't forever and you don't want your career to happen to you. You want to drive your own career, right? Yeah, but also this idea that on one lane is family, friends, romantic life. And in the other lane is work and they run parallel forever. That's nonsense. They intersect like crazy. And you better figure out how to prioritize one and then the other or how they blend together. But the separation I realized over the last two weeks is

31:06Totally artificial, right? Well, I think the clarity that comes with a loss like you've been through that that what matter I mean, I think you know I can imagine opening your email. You're like nope Not important and but also Knowing not to dismiss it knowing that it would become I would be able to focus on it Not today and not tomorrow and not a week from tomorrow But I would be able to focus on it and I would want to focus on it just putting it in abeyance for a moment. And just, I've never done this before, but I had to stop working for the better part of two weeks. And in my 40 years of working, I've never done that before. I felt like I had no choice there. I just couldn't handle it otherwise. And thank goodness we work in a place where that is absolutely okay. And there's a lot of support.

32:05It's helped me think very clearly about setting priorities, about saying no to stuff. You know, you cannot push on every single aspect of your life with 110% determination. Some stuff has to be more important than other stuff. You cannot go full throttle all the time. You have to figure out how to make your life not just sustainable, but Somehow gratifying to you because you only get one of these lives. Yeah, and it's not a work life or a home life. It's one life, right? Yeah So Amy after losing your mom, how did you stop working? How did you take that time for yourself? So it wasn't an act of will. Mm-hmm. She died I went down to New York where she was and You know, I sort of threw myself into the logistics

33:02which is a heck of a lot easier than dealing with your emotions. And then I told folks at work, yeah, I'll be back. She died on Sunday. I'm down in New York on Monday from Boston. I was driving back Tuesday and I had planned to be back at work on Wednesday. I woke up on Wednesday and it felt like a tsunami of sadness had just grabbed me. I just felt I was washed out to sea. And I realized, I was good for nothing. And so I just texted with my boss with Audi and said, I'm not coming back. I need to do this thing. He was totally supportive. I threw myself into writing her death notice, which turned out to be a really wonderful exercise because it reminded me of what she was like when she was in her full glory. And I just, I couldn't,

34:02work. I couldn't focus. I felt unmoored and I'm not sure I'm moored again, but I feel a lot steadier. Some of it is that I gave myself the time and that would be my best advice. Take the time you need and don't try to anticipate how much time you need. You don't know. You go through this once losing your mother. So Amy G, you also lost someone dear to you. Can you tell us about that?

34:33Yeah, these non-biological relatives are always hard to explain. But he, Dante, his name was an important part of our family. He was at the hospital when my daughter was born. We spent all our holidays with him, all our family vacations. And he was relatively young just in his 60s, and it was pretty sudden. And I feel like I have a lot of the same feelings of it's very clarifying and it's all consuming. And I also had just a week where I was like, nope, can't work, can't think about it. And partly that was taken up with logistics of planning the funeral and doing all that paperwork and all of that stuff. But part of it was just like, I can't think about anything else right now. So what did you take away from all that?

35:32I mean, I think I took that we need to give one another that space and I feel the same deep gratitude to colleagues here who stepped in and helped and I think one of the other things I really learned especially because it wasn't someone who was easily explainable in my life is that I had to be a little more open about how deeply I was affected than I think I My first instincts would have told me to be and I had to do that because I had to I needed the people who around me to understand how deep that grief was And it's been it's been so helpful to talk to people. Yeah, and to make sense of it that way Yeah, and I've actually a couple colleagues. I've just who've reached out on Slack or have sent emails I've just said I hope you don't mind Can I send you a picture of him and can I tell you a story about him and they've all been so

36:31Wonderful about it. And that's another lesson is like I knew I couldn't work and yet I didn't fully separate myself from work and my colleagues because I needed When I knew I was going back. I needed the shared experience of like I've been through something intense Can you please see that so that when I hop onto this? Webex and I look a little teary you get it right, you know, yeah like even you shared your mom's open with the team and it just, you know, my instinct was to share it with more people. Like people who don't even know you just because I was like, look at this amazing woman. Like it just, I think there is, there has to be connection in these intense emotions and otherwise you're just feeling them by yourself alone. Like that's just not, I don't think that's healthy. What I keep hearing

37:26You say Amy or like keep repeating in my head is you have to give yourself time to feel the feelings you're feeling I mean, this was actually a friend who lost her mother last year Just said when you need to grieve grieve don't stop yourself from doing it. It will just make it worse And it will come out eventually. Yes, and I and I think that's true for any intense emotion We do especially in work cultures. There's this sense of like Pull it together people like I think we're rewarded professionally for doing that for plowing through But I think personally it just takes a huge toll And a lasting toll. Yeah, I mean you get you get to the point of real burnout and It'll take you a very long time to get past that That's scary. Yeah, well, and I think what actually really ends up getting harmed

38:19not only obviously your own mental health, but your relationships. When we don't give ourselves room to grieve, to have the feelings we have, and we're keeping it together at work, it's our friendships, our loved ones, like they're the ones who bear the brunt of that. I think that damage is lasting, as you say, Amy B. And I would extend that to any...

38:45Time in your life when you haven't done the self-reflection you need to do when you haven't asked yourself am I on the right ladder? Is this really what I feel like when I'm happy in my work? Because it does it wears on you. Yeah, and it does express itself in that you know You become short with your friends and you don't focus on the relationships that matter to you and finally you become so Exhausted physically and emotionally that you just can't handle your life, right? Yeah, although I will okay. I do want to say don't say that to me I know I was like wait does that mean I'm gonna have to do self-reflection that Mike no no like I want to I want to put a plug in for the like

39:28Recognizing I think what Nina did very well was saying I know I'm not asking these questions right now And and I I just want to say I think it's okay if you're aware I'm not totally agree with you your yes Thank you for making yeah, well, and I think there's that there's like well the time's not right now and There's a difference between like I'm putting all those emotions down and everything's fine And I'm just pretending and it's okay, and I'm just gonna plow ahead and like there's a difference between that and the like I don't have the time and space right now but I will soon and I'll keep and I'll keep asking the question. So Amy G at the beginning you mentioned that you're questioning whether or not you're on the right letter or questioning your goals. Is this the approach that you're taking kind of putting things aside for later? Yeah I mean basically like I can remember in the beginning of 2020 I did this like goal setting session with a friend of mine where we like got together we like

40:27drew out these like these we had like diagrams about our goals and whatever and I think about doing that right now and I literally feel like I'm choking yeah you can't do it and I can't do it and I think okay some at some point I will I know these questions need to be asked I just can't answer them right now like I will start shaking if I have to do it so I'm gonna put it off but I'm not telling myself I'm not feeling the emotions I'm not telling myself I'm not questioning I'm not saying there aren't big choices to be made and goals to be set, I just can't do it right now. I can't do it right now because I just don't have the clarity. And I think most of my mental energy is being taken up, you know, processing the past two years and not processing like looking forward, like actually processing like, am I okay? Is my family okay? Are my friends okay?

41:27I'm just consumed with more immediate concerns than my career goals for 2020. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know there's some of that smaller stuff that I feel like I can put aside too for a while. But then in another way, I'm like, I can't afford to put these questions off. I can't afford to not think about this stuff right now. I can't afford to. I'm sorry. I'm talking about working out again. I can't afford to.

41:56continue to not work out because I know that if I fixed that or made that part of my life a little bit better, it would make the other parts of my life easier. So like turning the attention to what would make me feel happy and healthy, like Rukhaya is thinking about are things that I need to do, but at the same time, it's like such a vicious cycle. I don't have the energy to do it. And it definitely takes energy. Yeah. So for people who are interested in goal setting, Yeah. What did yours look like when you did it? Well, I mean, it was someone who I both have a professional and personal relationship with, which was great. So someone I felt safe with. And then we just sort of chat. We started by just chatting like, what was great about the last year? What do you want to see different this year? Like if you got to December of 2020, what would make you feel most satisfied? And it was started a lot around.

42:51Emotion and like how we wanted to feel and like the impact we wanted to have and then we started to get more tactical How do we actually want to get there? Yeah, we drew this diagram of concentric circles about like the impact our work has on Like one person is like the inner circle, right? And then a team and then an organization and then like broad like this podcast would be in the biggest circle Because we're reaching many people at a time And I think about that a lot of like, where am I focusing my energy right now? Like, what is the impact? Is it that very inner circle? Is it like the middle circle? Or is it like this big outer circle? And that does help me make choices about where to dedicate my limited energy at the moment. So will you try to go broader to a larger audience or will you turn more inward to a smaller audience because that might be...

43:46Easier? I don't know if it is easier. Can I answer that question right now, Emily? That's a question I can't answer right now. Give her some space. I'm so sorry. No, but that is the kind of question I do want to ask myself. And I actually, if I take a deep breath and I do think about 2022, like I have a book coming out, like I do think I'm probably gonna be focusing on that broader circle of trying to reach more people with the things I care.

44:14about the things I'm passionate about. But it's just even hard for me to think about that question right now. That makes me think of Alice Boyce in one of our earlier episodes. She was like, what is the most important work you could be doing right now? What is the most important work you can be doing now? I think that that is clarifying. Like, even if you don't have the opportunity or the space to ponder these bigger questions, it's like, well, what do I want to do right now? Yeah. And right now it could be like, Spending time thinking about your mom. We're just feeling your feelings. Yeah, and that is like the most important work Yeah, I have to say maybe I have loved hearing about your mom on the show over the years and I look forward to more stories about her She's the most amazing career woman I've ever read about and she made Amy be She made another amazing career That's our show and our season

45:16I'm Amy Gallo. I'm Amy Bernstein. And I'm Emily Caulfield. Our editorial and production team is Amanda Curse, Maureen Hoek, Rob Eckart, Erica Truxler, Tina Toby-Mac, and Eleni Mata. Rob and Maure compose this theme music. If you like our podcasts, the best way to support us and to support HBR generally is to subscribe. You can do that on hbr.org. And we have some exciting news. Women at Work is launching a book series.

45:46It's based on our show and includes interviews, articles from hbr.org, and discussion guides. The first three books are called Speak Up, Speak Out, You the Leader, and Making Real Connections. They'll be available in February 2022, but you can pre-order them now, any of the titles or the entire set on Amazon or through your favorite bookstore.

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