Women at Work - Getting Along with a Biased Tormentor

0:01I'm Amy Gallo, and this is Getting Along, a series where I help a guest and you and everyone else listening learn to work with anyone, even difficult people. By difficult, I mean rude, unprofessional, or hostile, bad behavior that wears us down. No one should have to grin and bear it. Change is possible. But the answer isn't to suppress our emotions or hope the problem person leaves. Neither is retaliating or shaming them.

0:33These are lessons I've picked up from being a career coach, studying conflict, and spending the past couple years reading about behavioral science and interviewing researchers for a book. It's also called getting along. Tending to our toughest work relationships is worth the trouble. After all, they loom large in our lives and have a disproportionate impact on our experiences. The path to improving them starts with understanding why certain types of difficult people act the way they do. Then using tactics and phrases to match that type. Little by little, you can build a functional relationship for the sake of your sanity and career. Across the series, we'll cover how to put yourself in a productive mindset, model the behavior you want to see, and hold people accountable when they've promised to change. We'll also acknowledge that we can't force anyone to change.

1:30All we can do is nudge them to be a little less insecure or pessimistic or whatever their issue is. Note that every guest is using a pseudonym so that they can speak more candidly about their situation. Sherry's story starts with an email that spiraled into a tirade. Sitting in her office at the hospital where she's an administrator, she composed what she thought was a straightforward request.

2:02She was looking for approval to send a colleague to a conference where that person would do a presentation on a program Sherry had championed. So she emailed the manager she indirectly reports to asking if they might be able to cover the travel costs. And I received a response. Did you follow these steps? They assumed that I had overstepped my boundary and not went to someone else.

2:31I just went straight to them, and that actually wasn't what I had done. She had followed the steps. She'd gone to the department where the project started, but the person who held the purse strings there said they didn't have the budget. But because the program benefited patients across the hospital, Sherry figured another department could tap its budget. And even with that information, instead of clarifying...

2:59or what have you, I received this really long explanation that involved, if I were you, I would have done this, and if you were me, you would have done, it was, I felt out of proportion to the question. And I responded very abruptly and said, thanks, you could have just said no.

3:23Okay. And this is all happening over email. Is that right? Yes. Yeah. Okay. Honestly, you know, in hindsight, I could see where that could ruffle feathers, but at the time I really did just mean it because I can take no, like I've heard it all my life. And so even though I would disagree with it, you know. Yeah. Sherry doesn't work in the emergency department or in one of the hospital specialty departments.

3:53She runs its health and wellness programs. Those programs, she says, aren't as well funded as those that treat the sick. So a lot of her job is making requests like this one that advocate for funding and attention. And oftentimes it feels like a fight. To add to that, I am what we call...

4:12You know, there's always new terms and underrepresented minority and I'm a woman. And so over the years I have had struggles related to that as well. Bias, prejudice, racism and all those things intertwined. And so I'm in this role to advocate. I grew up in the community and I have a strong passion for the work that I do. Which is why she wanted to celebrate that program's success.

4:40and which is why she found the manager's long angry response so discouraging. I mean it was just like they went on and on and on and on and so I responded and we went back and forth multiple times and and it even got to the point where I was still being so deeply that I printed it out and I read through it and wrote in responses to their responses for myself, you know, to see like I wrote in that's an assumption. No, I would not have responded that way because that is way out in the field. Like, I mean, I was trying to find where in this email does any of this make sense it was just a complete rant and then after that very long exchange it started to come down to these short phrases with this dot dot dot trailing off punctuation way into the evening and honestly by the end of it there was no clarity it just kind of ended and now it's just business as usual and we're back to being chummy in the hallway

5:51Hmm interesting so tell me the nature of your relationship with this person prior to this request for funding Yeah prior to it one-on-one things were fine and they're still Okay, because they have to be for drop security and I mean I always take the high road. Yeah, so you're keeping the peace but it sounds like there's quite a bit of tension Yeah, they're for me. There's tension and I think that's what bothers me the most. I think I'm the only one who is bothered by it. Yeah. Yes. Oh, gosh, that is so common. I think when dealing with difficult interactions with colleagues, it can often feel like, wait, is this just me? Am I the only one who sees a problem here? But I want to ask, because you mentioned racism, bias, prejudice. Do you believe that's an issue here? I do. I think it's more on the bias side. I mean, we talk about it openly in healthcare because, you know, it's on the table.

6:49But I've heard commentary, you know, moral on the side of why do we have to focus on one group. From the specific co-worker. This specific co-worker. Yeah. Or things like, you know, everybody's important. Or they'll maybe use an example of I had ex-patient in this demographic that is not a minority who has similar issues. Or what about people and poverty who are of this demographic to make their point that you don't have to be a person of color or you know to say kind of like this all lives matter and I believe they've even said that before in private to to get me to commiserate with them on these points. Yeah. So this is a classic.

7:42microaggression that you're talking about of just sort of proclaiming or Assuming or deciding that there is not systemic bias or prejudice or racism and just sort of denying that experience of your patience or review and I think a lot of people Who commit those microaggressions assume? There's nothing wrong with it. They actually they see it as a point of connection Yes, rather than a point of denial. Yeah, and since they talk A lot like it's hard to get a word in edgewise. It's even hard to rebut for me to say, you know or try to influence their thinking in a different direction. They kind of own the room most of the time. Yeah Okay, so this is this is interesting because you've told me that things are okay Except for this one intense interaction around funding and yet it sounds like things really aren't okay. Yeah

8:40You listen well. Thank you. It's my job. I hope I do. So tell me, like, I guess I want to understand when you say things are okay, do you mean you're just sort of, you know, coasting with this person? What do you mean when you say things are just okay? I guess coasting is the right word. I think, hmm, so if I was a person, who didn't have any goals or aspirations or wanted to feel appreciated for the good work I do, then I could live like this forever. Okay, I'm sorry to laugh, but I hope you're not a person without goals or aspirations or who doesn't need to feel appreciated. That is like a revelation and it almost just like, I can't even believe I just said that out loud, but... Yeah.

9:41That's what okay means. Got it. Okay. So I'm just gonna tell you that's not okay. Yeah, it's not, right? Ouch, that stinks. Yeah, it sounds like you feel like this person is in the way of your goals and aspirations, does not make you feel appreciated, maybe even is actively standing in your way. Is that fair to say? It is fair and you know what Amy the worst part about it is, I think I'm gonna get tearful.

10:10that my goals and aspirations aren't individual. I feel like I'm letting people down. Right. They're not about me. Right. Right. And so this person is standing in the way of you reaching those goals you have for your patients, for your colleagues. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like people are waiting for me to make important change and that they're just watching me fail.

10:42Which is not what I signed up to do. Right. And which is not, it's not coming from you. No, it's not who I am. Right. Right. I'm not a person that would ever sabotage someone else or even badmouth them or blame them. I'll just put my head down and do the work. Right. Right. Let's take a deep breath because this is, I mean the emotion you're feeling.

11:13It's completely normal. That is what it feels like to be on the end of sabotage. One of the struggles I have with the word microaggressions is that it makes it sound small when actually the impact is actually quite big. And there's a term that a lot of DEI experts use, and you may know this, it's called subtle acts of exclusion.

11:39I've never heard that one. Yeah, which I think is a to me a preferable term for microaggressions because it It's an action the person is taking and the end result whether they intended or not is exclusion and It can be a helpful term to get to the gravity and the impact and the cost of these behaviors I like that term it felt Like it landed more for me because that's exactly what I feel it embodies exactly what I feel. Yeah Do you feel comfortable sharing another example of what this person has done? I mean, you use the word sabotage. And I'm just curious to hear if there's another example you can give beyond this really rude email exchange, but is there anything else they do that you can point to that feels sabotaging? Another example would be I've been working really hard on a strategic initiative.

12:39I've been doing the work for two years on top of my daily duties. And it's not light work. Lots of meetings, subcommittees, and it reports up through several chains, out to the board, so on and so forth. So we're putting forth names of who should lead the committee. I say we as in, not me, putting forth names.

13:09So I raised the question is there a reason why we're considering a new leader other than myself who's been doing the work? That conversation circled for a while and so my coworker and I had a direct conversation about it and behind closed doors very candid with me. I mean almost like rallying around me and yeah you go we got this and I think that makes perfect sense.

13:39And so I left there feeling really good. Like, oh, they have my back. I get a phone call from someone I've been very close with for a number of years who said, did you know that this has been offered to someone else? And I was just wondering because I thought you were doing the work. And I'm like, say what? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

14:08They selected someone else like within 20 within 24 hours of our conversation Wow, yeah, and has yet to come talk to me about it Wow, when was that? Yeah, um, it's only been about a month or so I have to say based on what you're telling me this person Fits two of my least favorite archetypes The biased co-worker and then also what I would term the tormentor which is someone who's sort of acts like a mentor but is actually really sabotaging to use your word or just making your life miserable. These labels I use not to diagnose and not to dismiss the person and not even to demonize. I don't think we should be demonizing these people because ideally we want to have positive or at least neutral relationships with them at work. But I do use the term in a way to help us understand the behavior.

15:06to understand the costs of it and then also to help us come up with some strategies about how can you best work with them. Yeah, you gotta call it like you see it in order to do something, right? Exactly. And someone who's a tormenter does not mean that you cannot work with them, that you're done. It's just, okay, we see what the behavior is. Let's think a little bit about why this person behaves the way they do and then what strategies or tactics can you use to try to make it a more positive interaction.

15:36It's tricky with the bias behavior because it's not really on you as the target of that behavior to fix it. And yet, I also want to make sure you have some tools and strategies to work with this person because it sounds like your work is quite interdependent. Exactly. So tell me, what is your goal for your relationship with this person, Sherry? Like what would success look like for you? To be able to communicate in a way that I don't.

16:06provoke defensiveness at the outset. Because I know I can't change them, so I need a strategy for me. I'm not above managing myself and regulating how I communicate. But there's something about me that I don't know if I intimidate. I don't know what it is. They receive me that way.

16:32So I don't know if I come in too hot, whatever it is, but I need to figure out how do I approach them in a way that they hear me because I need to be able to move forward with my goals and I am not being received. Right. And I wouldn't take too much of that on yourself in terms of what you're actually doing that's causing that. I think it's fair to realize that there's something going on with them where they feel threatened.

17:01or they feel the need to put you down or they feel the need to sabotage you. Now, the question is, is there a way to neutralize that? And I think with someone who does fall into this torment or archetype or even skirts it, there is a need to sort of amp down the competition to try to get them to be less aggressive and less intent on actually Making your life miserable or making you look I would venture to say this person whether consciously or not is competing with you and I think the question is how to approach the relationship your interactions with this person in a way that Doesn't give into that competition without making you look bad. I'd what I really don't want to happen is for you to

17:52undermine yourself or to downplay your successes or your talents just to make this person feel comfortable. Agreed. I don't want to shrink. Yes. No shrinking. Let's not do any shrinking. But are there ways to make this person feel like you are more on their side so they're not reacting in this way? Hmm. I think one thing I will have to do is less email communication.

18:21That's sort of the norm in our organization is to use email. However, with this person, I will probably have to have more face-to-face conversations. For obvious reasons, it's easier to interpret tone and all of those things. I think that would serve me better, especially when I'm asking for resources or advocating. I need to do that in a more formal way in person and not make assumptions. Right. And I think One of the things that could help is to be really clear about your intention. So before you make a request, before you ask them for something, before you have an interaction that might be tense is to be very clear about what your intention is. My intention here is to help this department get the funding they need because X, Y, and Z. Or my intention here is for us to be on the same page because I think we're stronger when we're working together.

19:18Because it sounds like that email exchange, there was a lot that they were accusing you of. In terms of what your intention was, that was not truly the case. Yes. So I have a question though. Yeah, please. I personally have no problem with the follow-up. You know, this is what we talked about email with someone who's a tormentor. Is it safe to send that email after you have the face-to-face or will they get defensive? Should you just use that judiciously?

19:48Well, I'm a big fan of that with anyone especially with anyone who fits any archetype of difficult person because I do think it's helpful to have the documentation Not only for you, but then also to check especially someone who's to your face Let's be honest to your face saying one thing and then doing another right if we think about that leadership role So it's helpful to do that now what I think you need to be careful of is that again? You're not trying to trigger the competition between you is there a way to phrase the email so it doesn't look like you're documenting the conversation, right? It's just saying, thanks so much for the conversation. I'm so glad I have your support for this leadership role. It really means a lot to me. Okay, simple. Now, like at 1202, we discussed the following and bullet pointed out. That's right. Although, you know, when things go really south, I do actually encourage that. But I think for now, I think when you're trying to sort of rebuild a little trust,

20:46with this person, that it can be helpful to just confirm you're on the same page, document what you said, what's been discussed, but in a way that's like, we're in this together. And again, I don't want you to do this with the intention of making this other person comfortable. I think this is a strategic move for you to get what you need. I don't want it to be focused on accommodating this person's real inadequacies and aggressions. But I want it to be focused on what does Sherry need from this interaction? And how does she best get that? And there is some need to sort of build a little trust with this person, accepting that this is not a full trust relationship. And that's to be expected. It's just when you move over in the sabotage, it's like, whoa, back it up. Exactly.

21:43Exactly. So, and actually, yes, let's talk about this sabotage for a minute because I do think this is behavior we do want really to stop. And I'm curious what it would feel like to you or what it would sound like to you to address the fact that this person said you were right for this leadership role, encouraged you to go for it and then chose someone else. I've thought about it to some degree and What I want to tell them is that you don't have to agree with me or give in to what I put forth. I'd like to be heard and reasoned with and we can bat it back and forth. I may in fact not be bringing forward a good proposal. If you say yes to everything I say, then that's probably not good leadership.

22:40I mean, we've got to be able to bounce things off of each other. That's how this works. But just outright, go another direction without communication. I was disappointed. I thought I was angry. I was angry initially, but it transitioned to disappointment. I was disappointed. Yeah. What about just asking the question of we had this conversation? I thought I had your support for taking on that role. What happened?

23:07at the moment I don't feel safe with them. Yeah. But that would be a great question. If with a safe person, which I do have several leaders that I could ask that question and they would answer it. This person, I don't know what they would say. Right. And if it would even be the truth, I guess I'm apathetic. It's kind of like why bother is what I really am thinking if I'm being honest, because it's just probably going to be some made up story. Right.

23:37Okay, so if we don't trust them to be direct or honest, the other option, which is I think what you were just speaking to, is to explain how it made you feel. Yeah. And I think part of the issue is that this happens a lot with bias and it happens a lot with tormentor is that when we assign intention to the other person, That becomes the question, right? Oh, I didn't mean to do this. Then you get a big discussion about what they mean. So setting that up as saying, I know this wasn't your intention, but having that conversation and then having you make another decision, I was disappointed by that. So you're not inviting what your intention is or not. You're just saying, here was my reaction.

24:27That's a little more difficult for that person to disagree with because it's your emotion. I love that. So then they have to speak to the impact. Exactly. Exactly. So you stay away from what they actually did and talk more about how it landed with you. Okay. Yeah. That's good. I love that. I mean, and I think that's true with the bias. I think about this person's comments about all lives matter or all people are important. And instead of saying, you know, That's racist, which let's be fair, I agree that is. But you can say, I know it's not your intention, but when I hear that, I hear you dismissing the experience of people of color. And I know that's not your intention, but that's how I hear it. And again, it takes it out of like, what did this person intend to do? And more, let me reflect to you how you sound, right? Let me reflect to you how that might be heard by others.

25:24but that's not again it's not your responsibility to do that i'm just i'm giving you a little bit of language to possibly use when if you do decide to address those comments you don't have to but if you wanted to i think that might be a way to do it can i just tell you something i appreciate you telling me it's not my responsibility because i think i walked through life feeling like it's my responsibility to do a lot of these things um which is heavy Low to carry and I think you might be one of the first people that's ever told me it's not my responsibility. So I really appreciate it Well, I'm glad and and it is really truly not yours. I mean, I mean, I know like in theory I know it but it like it's really just like people like to hear thank you Yeah, I think people should tell people sometimes what is not their responsibility because it's usually other duties as assigned. Yeah Yeah You can choose

26:21which comments you're going to address, which ones you're going to just let go. You can choose to lean into certain conversations and not have others. And you don't have to beat yourself up for choosing not to have them. Yeah. Engaging with someone who is sabotaging, who can be too faced. There's only a certain amount of that you can do before it's counterproductive. Absolutely. It's exhausting. It's exhausting. Exactly.

26:51The other thing I would say is it sounds like you have a great reputation. It sounds like you have some really wonderful colleagues. Can you spend more time with those people? Is there stuff you do outside of work that fills you up in a way that gives you a little more resilience in the face of this person? So I have all those like the other relationships in work and the structure and support outside of work and the thing that's a leap area of opportunity.

27:21is comparing them against each other. So instead of just being grateful for those other things, I constantly weigh them and compare them against each other and want that thing at work to be just like the others. Instead of saying I'm grateful for those other things, given that, I'm always saying I want that to be like those.

27:49Gosh you have just captured the insidiousness of the tormentor because You want that relationship to work You want it to be as good as your other relationships and it's not and that that's the part that's so frustrating is that It's so easy to compare like I have people who are supporting me I have people who respect my work. What's wrong with this one person? But instead we actually turn it on us. What's wrong with me me? Yes It is literally tormenting me. Yes, and I'm sorry we're both laughing about that because it's not good. But it's true. I just realized that all these other things are great. It is tormenting me. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Huh. Sherry, tell me what right now you're taking away from this. Even if it's just a change of mindset or their actions you want to take, where's this all settling with you? I hear the practical things I need to do.

28:48I can do those. It'll take some courage and some letting go of pride. I don't consider myself a prideful person, but like you said, I'm doing this after a strategy not to give in or to cater to this person. And I just have to keep telling myself that because I know that's going to rear its head. Like, oh, you're just doing whatever they want you to do. I'm going to have that self-talk that goes in your head. I'm going to tell it to shut up. So I'm hearing that.

29:18I'll have to remember that that's not why I'm doing it. But then I also hear that the human tendency, my tendency to focus on the things that aren't going well. I'm going to also have to intentionally refocus on the things that are because there's a lot that is going well. My mom always says, don't let nobody steal your joy. And I used to roll my eyes at that.

29:47Yeah, that's exactly what I'm allowing to happen. I have a lot of joy in my life and I'm letting it be stolen for what? It doesn't even make sense honestly because I may not get everything accomplished in this lifetime even and no one said you're failing me. That's the story I'm making up in my head because it's how I feel.

30:16And even if they did say it, I have to tell myself I'm doing the best I can do in the context of what I am working with right now. So to sum that up, I need to give myself some grace. Yeah. And there's a tactic I've actually used myself a few times when I do feel that I'm failing either other people or myself, which is to write down, because it's so easy to focus on the to do list and the things we haven't done.

30:46And you've described the work you're doing as a big challenge. I would also make a list of the things you've done in the last year, in the last six months, in the last week, because I bet that list is very long. And going in with that, reminding yourself of that, like what you've actually done, I also think, again, is going to put you in a better position with this person. And it actually reminds me of one other tactic that research shows works with, the research is done with abusive supervisors, which are often the tormentors, is that you can often shift the balance of power. Because we often feel powerless in front of these people. They have authority over us. They have control over funding and whether we get the leadership role. But to shift the balance of power, to show them they actually need you.

31:38And whether that's because you have a skill they don't have, an area of expertise, and you don't have to parade it in front of them, but to remember that in your mind, I have these things that this person needs. And to find opportunities to demonstrate that. And again, not like, you need me, but the subtle message is, I have this expertise, and I know you need that. So treat me well. That's the subtle message.

32:07But by bringing up those things that you do have, you do bring to the table the contributions, bringing those up in that conversation will hopefully shift that balance a bit. So this person doesn't feel they have so much power over you that they can mistreat you. That is an opportunity to I am a worker. You give me a job, I do it. Give me a job, I do it. You know, knock it out, knock it out, knock it out. So that definitely is the opportunity for me to sit down and reflect. Well, and I think Let's change the pattern from, you give me a job, I do it too. You give me a job, I do it. I tell you what a good job I did. You give me a job, I do it. I'll make sure you know what a good job I did. I like that. I mean, I've never even thought about it that way. I mean, I don't. And my mom also told me to be humble too, so she might have needed to define that a little bit more. You can be humble without hiding all your good work. She didn't say that. I think that's what she meant. I think so too.

33:07I'll ask her. Yeah. Do you have any other questions or thoughts you wanted to share? No, I think as soon as we started, I was having revelations just fire all over the place. I didn't know how much I needed this. I typically feel very deeply, if you couldn't tell, I'm passionate. But before we talked, I haven't been able to cry. And I'm a crier.

33:34I mean, you don't thank people for making them teary, but thank you because I feel a little bit more restored to my normal self. I'm so glad to hear that. Well, and it's hard to feel those feelings when you know there's not a lot you can do to change it. So it's like, well, I'm just putting up this wall to protect myself. I 100% agree with that. And I believe that's why I was becoming more stoic and sort of even disconnecting because there was no end in sight. Except for maybe an exit, which I'm not ready to do for one person. Yeah, we didn't even discuss the option of quitting, which of course is an option. No, I wasn't even there yet, except maybe I was. This came at the right time because I think if I hadn't been able to talk this through, I don't know. Yeah, you know, it's an option I like to put out there because I do think

34:31No one should be in a position where they don't feel valued, where they feel tormented. No one should have to endure that day in and day out. And yet I didn't sense that that's where you were yet. No, I don't think it's unrecoverable, especially considering there's still strategies to implement and I still love the work. Yeah. I want to wish you luck and I know it won't always be easy, but We're going to be rooting for you. I appreciate that. You've been so helpful. If you want to learn more about how to work with a tormentor, a biased colleague, or an otherwise difficult person, you can order my book, Getting Along, through HBR's online store, Amazon, or your favorite bookstore. And if you prefer to listen, there's the audiobook I narrated.

35:25HBR has put together a toolkit to accompany the book that includes more of these episodes, as well as worksheets and an assessment to help you put the book's advice into practice. Find the toolkit by going to store.hbr.org and searching, getting along. Let me know what you think of the series by emailing women at work at hbr.org. Also, HBR has more podcasts to help you manage yourself, your team, and your organization.

35:53Find them at hbr.org slash podcasts, or search HBR in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. Luminatworks editorial and production team is Amanda Cursey, Maureen Hoek, Tina Toby Mack, Rob Eckhart, Erica Truxler, Ian Fox, and Hannah Bates. My co-host Amy Bernstein will be back with me for season eight starting October 17th. I'm Amy Gallo. Thanks for listening.