Women at Work - Getting Along with a Passive-Aggressive Gossip

0:01I'm Amy Gallo, and this is Getting Along, a series where I help a guest and you and everyone else listening learn to work with anyone, even difficult people. By difficult, I mean rude, unprofessional, or hostile. Bad behavior that wears us down. No one should have to grin and bear it. Change is possible. But the answer isn't to suppress our emotions or hope the problem person leaves. Neither is retaliating or shaming them.

0:30These are lessons I've picked up from being a career coach, studying conflict, and spending the past couple years reading about behavioral science and interviewing researchers for a book. It's also called Getting Along. Tending to our toughest work relationships is worth the trouble. After all, they loom large in our lives and have a disproportionate impact on our experiences. The path to improving them starts with understanding why certain types of difficult people act the way they do, then using tactics and phrases to match that type. Little by little, you can build a functional relationship for the sake of your sanity and career. Across the series, we'll cover how to put yourself in a productive mindset, model the behavior you want to see, and hold people accountable when they've promised to change. We'll also acknowledge that we can't force anyone to change. All we can do is nudge them to be a little less insecure,

1:31or pessimistic or whatever their issue is. Note that every guest is using a pseudonym so that they can speak more candidly about their situation. Lynn has a colleague who's behaving passive-aggressively. He's in a different department, but in a similar function. And their work is interdependent. How quickly or slowly she's able to get things done hinges on how engaged or disengaged he is. And unfortunately, he's been pretty disengaged lately.

2:04At least with her whenever I try to have some conversation about hey like how can we work together? You know more coordinated way. Mm-hmm. You know in my doing I actually I think I asked this question of him a lot am I doing something that you disagree with that you don't like right and And it's like, oh, you're fine. Yeah So I guess what I struggle with is it's really difficult to improve a relationship or address a problem between two people when one person doesn't acknowledge that there's a problem. 100%, yeah. So I think that's kind of where I was like, I threw up my arms, which I don't know what to do from here. By the end of our conversation, Lynn has a plan. You will too, for whenever you need to resolve a conflict or strengthen a relationship with a colleague who's being passive aggressive, and maybe even gossiping about you, because he's also doing that.

2:58as she's about to explain. So Lynn, tell me the story of your relationship with this co-worker of yours. Yeah, sure. So I've been with my organization for close to five years and about a year and a half ago, maybe two years now, this person joined the organization and his background is really similar to mine. We actually kind of worked in similar circles outside of our organization before he joined this one.

3:27So when we first started working together, I think he and I were both really excited to have that kind of familiar, you know, thought partner in the organization. So it started off really great. So what's six months in? I started hearing from other folks in the organization that he was starting to do some work that really was my team's responsibility and I had no idea that he was doing it.

3:55one of the things that he was doing was, you know, putting on a training about kind of what my team is responsible for. And so I showed up in the training and one of our colleagues had actually forwarded the invitation to me. So I showed up and I think he on the fly was like, Oh, well, and, you know, and Lynn is here and she can answer any other questions or correct me or whatever, which I thought was kind of funny. So that that happened. And then it I heard later on, you know, he was continuing to do these things and I'd also started hearing some kind of back channel gossip about things that he was saying about me personally in terms of you know she doesn't know what she's doing or I disagree with you know the approach that which is fine you know I think it's okay to disagree yeah but I guess I would have just appreciated that he could have had that conversation with me you know we could have some

4:51conversation about differences and come to some agreement on, you know, how to move forward together. But that didn't happen. Yeah. During that time when you're hearing that back channel gossip, when he's sort of stepping on your team's toes, how are your interactions with him? Increasingly icy. Mm-hmm. And...

5:13I don't know if I was showing up differently. I didn't feel like I was showing up differently, but I did notice that he was showing up and saying less and less every time we were meeting. And it was becoming increasingly difficult to get information out of him, like we have these meetings so that we can kind of stay coordinated. And so I'd ask him, like, hey, what are you working on? And nothing. There was no acknowledgement of like, oh, yeah, I did this thing that was probably yours and whatever. And yeah, none of that. What would he say he's working on?

5:42things that were completely in his wheelhouse to work on. Okay, so he just was leaving out completely the things he was doing. Got it. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So what's uniquely challenging I think about my role is while I'm responsible for an enterprise-wide program, I sit in the middle of the organization. So I don't actually have much authority.

6:11quite frankly. So influence is key. Partnerships and relationships are key. And I think what I was worried about is, okay, so there's someone in the organization who, you know, has the background to speak authoritatively on this subject. And if he and I aren't aligned, folks in the organization are going to be confused, you know, should we be doing this or should we be doing that?

6:39Lynn's saying this and this other guy's saying that. And he's saying Lynn doesn't know what she's doing. And so maybe I should believe him. So anyway, it really hinders our ability to do what is what we need to do. So I scheduled a meeting with him. I call it our alignment discussion. I just came right out. I was like, Hey, so I've been hearing that, you know, you've been doing these things, having these trainings, having these meetings and Just kind of wonder like why why aren't you involving me? Why are you involving my team? And he was kind of like, oh no, no, not doing that. Yeah, but you are. But you are. I was in the training. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So then I didn't feel like I was making any headway with that kind of tech and so.

7:31I just asked him why did you join this organization right so I what I was trying to do was try to figure out really what are his intentions what is he trying to like get out of his job is there some common ground there smart move so I asked him I did do crucial conversations there we go yeah perfect a little bit of knowledge I gleaned from from the training.

7:52So I asked him like hey, why did you come to the organization? And I shared why I joined the organization, what I was trying to achieve. So then he started answering the question. Well, he started talking. I wouldn't say he answered the question. He spent like the next 15, 20 minutes telling me about all of the job offers he had had.

8:14leading up to his decision to join the organization and his career background and like this isn't answering the question right after listening to that i was kind of hoping he would get there eventually but he didn't and so i asked him again why why did you join the organization and he gave me this very like it was a very terse answer i mean it was to the point but he was almost kind of like.

8:42Like, yeah, how dare you? It felt like a challenge to him, perhaps. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. So from that moment, I was like, yes, I mean, this is, this is why I'm here, right? So we've got this thing. And so from there, it kind of seemed like it was a little bit easier to find ways to move forward, right? So even in that conversation, and I think the conversation was, we originally only scheduled it for a half hour. I was like, boom, boom, boom, like we'll talk through this and it'll, you know, we'll hold hands and everything to skip through the field together, right? Yeah. Turned into a two hour conversation in part because you know, he would go on these like, you know, 15, 20 minute loops. But at the end of it, we really got to a place where it was like, okay, we're both committed to improving communication. We're gonna have

9:34weekly meetings to touch base and make sure that we're staying coordinated. Actually, it kind of felt like we had really turned a corner. Yeah, sounds productive. Yeah, and things were better for a while. And then I don't remember exactly the timing. Maybe it was like another eight months or so. Things started to get icy again. And again, I'm kind of, you know, hearing these gossip channels about he's like saying things about you again and I mean, I could see, you know, he was doing things that were kind of encroaching on what my team is responsible for. And so, like, oh, why are we doing this again? Right. Right. Did you talk to him again? I did not have another one of those conversations. This is all happening during the pandemic. And, you know, that's hard. Yeah. It was hard for everybody. I think I was just...

10:26exhausted, quite frankly. I'm exhausted. I was exhausted from the pandemic. I was exhausted from like having to go through this thing again. And I think I kind of just threw up my arms and was like, I don't know. I talked to him but I can't get anything back. I get this feeling of like, whenever I try to have some conversation about, hey, like how can we work together in a more coordinated way.

10:54Am I doing, I actually think I asked this question of him a lot. Am I doing something that you disagree with that you don't like, right? And it's like, oh no, you're fine. So I guess what I struggle with is it's really difficult to improve a relationship or address a problem between two people when one person doesn't acknowledge that there's a problem. 100%. Yeah. So I think that's kind of where I was like, throughout my arms, I don't know what to do from here.

11:24talk to my manager in our check-ins. And she is observing the behavior as well. There are actually a number of people in the organization who are observing the behavior in different sorts of forums. Okay. And they're confirming your interpretation of what's happening. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And my interpretation of what is happening to me and also sharing with me that he is doing similar things to them. So she and I stay connected. And my manager suggested, hey, let's escalate to this guy's boss. So I did. So I had a conversation with him and explained some of the behaviors that I was seeing. And the response I got back was, I don't think he really means to be misogynist. And I don't want him to feel bad.

12:16which in retrospect just makes me laugh because it's like, oh, you don't want him to feel bad, but it's okay. You feel bad. Yes. Yeah, you can handle it, but he can't. Yeah. Right. So that path was untenable. Yeah. So that's kind of where we are right now. I mean, my manager, as I mentioned, we talk about it not on a regular basis, but you know, as things arise and as they become legitimate business issues, we're talking about it, right? So she's stepping in to see if she can, you know, foster some sort of productive relationship with him kind of on my behalf and really on behalf of our entire team because at the end of the day we all need to kind of figure this out. So that's kind of where things are right now. Okay. So I want to point out a few things that you've done right so far because I think that there is a lot you've done right.

13:11One is in your conversation with him and even in your mind, like your mindset, you're focused on the shared goal. What you actually have in common, what you need to do together in order to work collaboratively, get your work done, achieve your goals. And that's important to have that shared goal, especially with someone who you have a tricky relationship with because that becomes a touch point.

13:35to come back to and sometimes help someone get beyond their difficult behavior and get to a more collaborative stance. So that's great that you've done that. You've also been honest with him about the impact of his behavior and it sounds like that conversation you were asking him about his intention, you were describing the need to be more aligned, your desire to be more aligned. That's also a really good step.

14:03in the right direction. What I am encouraged by is that that conversation, you know, a two-hour conversation doesn't surprise me. I know we often go into these difficult conversations saying, well, we'll just say this and this and all be good, but they never work that way, right? But what I'm encouraged by is that there was some change in behavior from him after that. Now, I know when I personally am trying to change something, I do really well.

14:29right after I commit to changing it and maybe I get some advice, maybe I understand how it impacts others, and then when things get stressful I just slip back into the old behavior. So the generous interpretation I think here is that he has some, my guess is, and I don't want to get overly diagnostic about him, I don't think it's fair, but just to put some theories out there to help us figure out how to handle this in a productive way.

14:54He's a little insecure about his role. He would feel better if he had more responsibility, more control. And with that insecurity, when that pops up, he does things like gossip or do a little bit of a territory grab, right? The land grab that he's doing in terms of doing a training on a topic that your team's responsible for. And he probably knows that that's not that effective, especially when you tell him it's not. But it's easy for him to slip back into that. Yeah.

15:23Let's just assume he changes some behavior. Do you see a path forward in your own mind? Like, can you get past what's happened so far to be in collaboration with him? That's a really good question. I mean, to be totally honest, I don't know. Yeah. I'd like to think that I could muster some perseverance to work through it, but I don't know.

15:54Yeah. Yeah. And I think sometimes I talk to people and they say, well, I'm not ready to go there unless I get an apology or less than I get an admission that they were wrong in this. And I understand that. And I also want to be realistic that you aren't going to be able to control how he responds. Yeah. Especially with someone passive aggressive. I've heard people describe it as shadow boxing is that you're trying to engage and they're just like.

16:20like I'm not even here like I have no needs and I want to talk a little bit about the passive aggressive behavior in a moment but I do think one of the first steps for you is to really think about if we were able to get to a place where at least maybe eight times out of ten we felt aligned in partnership could you get over the resentment or the frustration of the exhaustion that you feel. And I don't say that as in like, let's dismiss your feelings. I don't want to treat you the same way his boss treated you of like, well, you can handle being upset, right? It's more that I think that mindset is going to be required if you genuinely want a working relationship.

17:04with him and I think it serves you. I don't see this as forgiving him or being generous to him. I think it's what ultimately serves you and what you're trying to achieve in your role. So I think that for me is step number one. Let's talk about the passive-aggressive behavior for a moment because generally what we find with passive-aggressive behavior is that it's not about actively trying to be a jerk. It's more often just a fear of something, a fear of failure, a fear of confrontation. And I think those feel like the most relevant perhaps here is that from what you've described, he appears like maybe a conflict avoidant person who doesn't want to tell you, actually, I think I should be responsible for that. Or I don't think your team's doing a good enough job. And that's why I took over, right? Who knows what his logic is. But one of the things you can do when people are afraid of confrontation is try to create an environment

18:02in which it's okay for them to be a little more direct and a little more honest. It sounds like you took a step toward that in that conversation where you were asking him about his intentions, why he joined the company. I think those are really smart questions to ask. And I might think about are there other ways in the way you interact with him where you can model humility, or even some vulnerability that would show him it's okay to say that you're not doing a perfect job. And that might even be say you know one of the things I wish my team had been able to do this year was this but because of the pandemic or because of this we didn't and I realized that's a failure on our part just sort of opening up the conversation so he feels like he can be a little more honest. Is that something you think might be effective with this person or does that sound too difficult to do?

18:55I mean, I think I kind of do that on a regular basis. By nature, I'm a very self-deprecating person. We don't need to get into my psychology. But I do, you know, I like to sprinkle in some humor with all meetings that I have. And oftentimes that humor is on myself. Or like, oh, I really screwed this up or whatever it is. And just kind of trying to really create that.

19:20environment that you know is like I'm not perfect and I get things wrong all the time. I think I say that a lot too. I get stuff wrong. I have blind spots. So I guess what I'm wondering is maybe the way I'm saying it isn't in such a way that it makes him feel comfortable to give feedback. Or maybe it's that your self-deprecation is something he thinks, oh, I don't want to do.

19:49his interpretation may be like she's just out there admitting her weaknesses and her faults and I don't want to do that right so maybe he's reacting to that in a way that where he's sort of shutting it down or shutting his own ability to be vulnerable down because he doesn't want to replicate that. Is he the kind of person who just does not admit faults at all? Yeah. Yeah.

20:11So in that case, since it sounds like you've tried to do some of that, sort of making it safe to disagree, making it safe for him to be more honest with you, you may need a more direct approach with him. Instead of the self-deprecating, well, my team doesn't get everything right, which may actually be backfiring in a way or sort of pushing him toward a different reaction, maybe there's a more direct request, which is something even as simple as Because we operate in the same field and we need to partner, we both see things about each other and each other's teams that I think we could be useful to give one another feedback. Can we agree? So rather than asking him, do you see it this way? Because he's going to be like, nope, it's all fine. Asking about the process. Can we agree that we'll be straightforward with one another about things that we see or things we want to be different?

21:06Yeah. Then sort of you create a contract. And then when something else happens later on and he says, oh no, no, everything's fine. You could say, you know, I think this might be one of those times where we really need to be. Remember, we agreed we're going to be direct and honest with each other. I just want to make sure there's something you're not saying that you wish you could say. Yeah. Right. And that's another thing with passive aggressive people. Sometimes instead of saying, you're saying no, but I know you're thinking something. Right. You can say.

21:34Is there something you wish you could say but you're not saying right now, right? Like just sort of again to add a little bit of safety, nudging them in the right direction. I wouldn't be surprised if he went home and said to his partner like, oh my gosh, I was almost honest and then I couldn't do it and I went out, right? Sometimes we think people are really being malicious when really they're just defaulting to their worst.

21:58behaviors in moments because they're afraid or because they're fearful. So I do think going back and having another conversation about the process of you all working together is probably the right next step, especially because you got some good results out of it the first time, even though they all went away, but you did get some good results. So it might be worth going back and saying, You know, we had this conversation. I felt really good coming out of it. I felt like we were really on the same page. I'm concerned some of that has slipped. I don't know where that lies. But again, our success really depends on us collaborating together. So can we talk about how we might work better together? Here's three things I'd love to agree to, right? And one of those might be we're going to be straightforward and honest when we see things that the other person could improve on or the other team could prove on. You might come up with those three things and then say, what would you like to see?

22:53different. And he might say, nothing, everything's fine, which is, you know, you can't force an honest response out of him. So instead, can you contract with him about how you'll interact going forward? Yeah, I love that. And that's definitely something I feel comfortable doing. I think that would make a big difference. Oh, good, good, good. Are there people in the organization that he works really well with?

23:21So who he works well with are people quite frankly that I don't interact with very much And also executives there are executives. He he manages up really well. Yeah, what about his boss that? The one who says he doesn't see the bad yeah, a really a really good relationship with his boss. Yeah, so okay This is an opening the fact that his boss has respect for him and works well with him, it might be worth another conversation with the boss. Now that you've sort of opened this up explaining what the issues are, you might say, I'm invested in making that working relationship better. Do you have any tips for how to best work with him? Do you have any advice for what works well when you work with him? Now, you have to take it all with a grain of salt because this is someone who's more senior and he

24:14does have those managing up skills, but it's possible that boss has some advice you haven't thought of. This is a tactic I like to use is when I'm struggling with someone, I find the person who likes them a lot. And I go to that person, if I have a trusting relationship and just say, I'm interested in improving my relationship with them, what advice do you have? And I've gotten some really interesting pieces of feedback. And it's helped me put myself in that person's shoes a little bit.

24:41his boss may tell you, well, he's pretty insecure and he thinks that you don't trust him. And then you're like, okay, now I have to show I had trust him or I have to find ways I can show I trust him. Again, always genuine because people will see through anything that's not. The other piece about this boss that I'm thinking about is escalation is always a tactic that you can use, bringing it to your boss, which I think has worked well because you've gotten some support and some advice. It also helps to protect your career to loop your boss into this. So if things do go sideways, then at least your boss knows. I do think was smart to talk to his boss as well. The thing about escalating is you always have to escalate to someone who you know is willing and able to do something about the issue, which it sounds like his boss just wasn't able to do.

25:32we can probably get into a whole nother conversation about why that is. You know, maybe he just doesn't have the skills, maybe he's conflict avoidant, maybe who knows, maybe he has information you don't have about why this person's behaving that way. Could be a zillion things. But it's one thing when I think about escalating an issue with a co-worker is you have to think about can that person do something and sometimes you don't know and you try it out and you learn like you did that they're just not willing to do it. And It's incredibly disappointing, and yet it's also the reality. But I like the idea of going to his boss and asking for any tips. Is that a conversation you can do? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, okay. And you might get some really vague answers or tips, but I think you seem like the kind of person who's good at reading between the lines. I think you'll get a sense of what that boss was trying to tell you about the best way to work with this person.

26:29Yeah. And it's starting to spin the wheels for me of who else in the organization I can reach out to to ask that question. Yeah. I don't want to end this conversation without talking about gossip, his gossiping, what sounds like maybe other people gossiping to you about him. So one of the things that I think is important is that anytime you're talking about him to others, which I will never tell you to not do that because I think that's incredibly helpful to get input, to run ideas behind people, to get their interpretation of how things went. But I think the goal in those conversations is how do I make this better, not how do I get these people onto my side? And I'm not saying that's what you're doing, but I think it's a mental shift to really have to watch out for so you don't create or worsen an unhealthy.

27:21dynamic. Does that make sense to you? Yeah, that makes total sense. There's some sort of like catharsis in unloading on people. So I have to make that mental kind of split, like save that for your husband. Yes, yes. My dear husband has to deal with listening to me.

27:41all of this on an endless basis it seems. But yeah, what is actually productive and what helps us improve the situation either for me or for whoever it is I'm talking to. So yeah. Yeah. Now being gossiped about, let's talk about that for a moment because when you hear things in the organization about what he said, it's infuriating. And you're also like, what are people not?

28:05telling me, right? Because I think your mind can start to race of like, oh, all these conversations are happening behind my back. And I do think establishing a better relationship with that person, hopefully we'll cut some of that out. I think eventually if that continues, that behavior continues or worsens, it might be something you just call out and just say, I heard from so and so that you disagree with me next time you feel that way, please come to me directly, right? Like you just sort of lay it out.

28:34very directly. There's also research that shows when people in organizations know they might be gossiped about, they know there might be some people who will talk behind the back, they behave better because they don't want to be the subject of gossip. Now that doesn't mean I'm not encouraging you to be like, if you don't behave, I'm gonna talk behind your back. But I do think it's important for him to know you are hearing this.

28:56I would try first to see if you can make him feel more secure because I think a direct confrontation with someone who's passive aggressive, it just sometimes falls apart. But if that doesn't in a few weeks or after these conversations, if they don't work, you may just need to say, I hear what you're saying about me, please come to me directly. I believe we have a strong enough relationship to work it out.

29:18That's not an easy statement to make. I would write it down a bunch of times, practice it in the mirror, practice it with your husband, and then try it out. It's not an easy thing to do, but I do think sometimes that nips that behavior in the bud. And sometimes people respond to that directness, and they may actually react negatively in the moment, but still change the behavior. So if you were to call it out and say, please come to me directly. And he said, I never gossiped about you. What are you talking about? You're totally off base.

29:47That doesn't mean he's going to continue to do it. It just means he had a little bit of a tantrum in that moment, which is fine. The tantrum happens, but he still may change the behavior because you put him on watch that you're paying attention.

29:59One of the things that I want to be clear about is you're not going to change him. He's not going to wake up and be like, Lynn showed me the light and I am now not passive aggressive and I'm going to stop talking about how great I am and I'm going to stop all of this grabbing of her projects of initiatives and I'm just going to be a better person. More likely than not, it's going to take a lot of small experiments with him to see what nudges his behavior in the right direction.

30:28all while doing what you're already doing, which is keeping your manager informed. Yeah. I think even coming up with a plan with your manager of like, here's the three things I'm going to try. And can I come back and debrief with you how they went? Can you give me feedback about how to do them differently? She sounds like someone who you could really use as a sounding board as you're trying to navigate this. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Just a general approach that I take to work is kind of approaching it as like a scientist right like I'm gonna try something and we'll see if it works and if it doesn't or we'll learn and we'll try something else right or yeah iterate so I like that because this is I get to be a scientist yeah exactly yeah that's music to my ears we're on the same page because at the end of the day we all wish people would show up as their best selves every day but they're not going to and we don't either right there are likely things that you do that drive him crazy

31:23or that trigger some of this behavior. And we're all messy human beings who show up with a bunch of baggage every day we go to work. And it's about trying to improve as much as we can and accept that people also have faults that we're not going to fix by forcing them to be less passive aggressive, for example.

31:47Well, thank you so much for sharing your story. I'm wishing you the best of luck. I hope you'll keep us posted on how these conversations go and what, if anything, shifts in the future. Yeah, this has been great. I really appreciate your time and the whole team's time. This has been super helpful. Good. I'm so glad. If you want to learn more about how to work with a passive-aggressive coworker or otherwise difficult person, you can order my books, Getting Along, through HBR's online store, Amazon, or your favorite bookstore.

32:19And if you prefer to listen, there's the audiobook I narrated. HBR has put together a toolkit to accompany the book that includes more of these episodes, as well as worksheets and an assessment to help you put the book's advice into practice. Find the toolkit by going to store.hbr.org and searching, getting along. Let me know what you think of the series by emailing women at work at hbr.org. Also, HBR has more podcasts to help you manage yourself, your team, and your organization. Find them at hbr.org slash podcasts, or search HBR in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. LuminetWorks editorial and production team is Amanda Cursey, Maureen Hoek, Tina Toby Mack, Rob Eckhart, Erica Truxler, Ian Fox, and Hannah Bates. My co-host Amy Bernstein will be back with me for season eight, starting October 17th. I'm Amy Gallo. Thanks for listening.