Women at Work - Getting Along with a Political Operator

0:01Olivia is a mid-level sales executive at a big company. Part of her job is to facilitate communication and cooperation between her former boss and the sales team. Olivia remembers the experience of working under this woman as being an overall positive one. She assigned her meaningful projects, set high expectations and gave her enough coaching and encouragement to meet them. But she would also need to be like the...

0:29smartest person in the room and the most well-informed person in the room. And so for me, it was like mostly okay because I don't need to be the best and brightest. Like, I was comfortable playing my role. Like, she's my manager. She's very, very talented at her work, so I was happy to let her kind of take the lead. But now that she's been promoted, she's been leaving Olivia out, like by hoarding information to appear powerful and undermining her by not inviting her to meetings about projects she's involved in.

0:57These are common behaviors of a political operator. Someone who, if you're not careful, will push their career forward at the expense of yours. I'm Amy Gallo, and this is Getting Along, a series where I help a guest and you and everyone else listening learn to work with anyone, even difficult people. By difficult, I mean rude, unprofessional, or hostile. Bad behavior that wears us down. No one should have to grin and bear it.

1:28Change is possible. But the answer isn't to suppress our emotions or hope the problem person leaves. Neither is retaliating or shaming them. These are lessons I've picked up from being a career coach, studying conflict, and spending the past couple years reading about behavioral science and interviewing researchers for a book. It's also called getting along. Tending to our toughest work relationships is worth the trouble. After all, they loom large in our lives.

1:59and have a disproportionate impact on our experiences. The path to improving them starts with understanding why certain types of difficult people act the way they do, then using tactics and phrases to match that type. Little by little, you can build a functional relationship for the sake of your sanity and career. Across the series, we'll cover how to put yourself in a productive mindset, model the behavior you want to see, and hold people accountable when they've promised a change. We'll also acknowledge that we can't force anyone to change. All we can do is nudge them to be a little less insecure or pessimistic or whatever their issue is. Note that every guest is using a pseudonym so that they can speak more candidly about their situation. All right, back to Olivia. At first, she tried to brush off her former boss's behavior as a quirk.

3:03I did just kind of let it go because, you know, some people really do like the spotlight and need to feel, you know, the most important for their ego and things. And that's just not important to me. It's much more important that the team looks successful and that the work gets done. And like, politicking is not my favorite aspect of working in a large corporation. So I was kind of like, eh, it's fine. As long as my manager thinks I'm doing a good job and it's reflected in my performance reviews and in my salary increases, it's fine.

3:30Now that she's trying to be promoted, though, she's concerned that the office politics this person is playing might cause her new manager to question if she really is doing a good job, which is why she came to me for advice on improving their relationship. So, Olivia, what's the nature of the problem between you at this moment? I think when she needs me to be involved, things are good and we are collaborative and get along well. I think sometimes she wants to be most important or have the more information. So sometimes she'll just kind of go above me or not include me on emails or meetings. And then it's hard for me to like act as that liaison between her team and the rest of it when I kind of don't know what's going on officially. And then there are some moments too where now that she's not my manager and I'm more of this like partner, she will also like

4:26kind of like be mean and like give me like very direct instructions like an example from this past week is like I scheduled a meeting for input later this summer on like a big project and I checked everyone's calendars it looked like people were available and she replies back like need you to move this meeting like we're all out of town and I was kind of like Okay, I'm happy to move it, but you could have just said, hey, please move it. My calendar was not blocked. Like it should have been. It's just like these side comments of like trying to be a little bit domineering. Right. Did she send that email CCing everyone else or was it just to you? No, it was everyone else on copy. Right. Yeah. So yeah, it makes me look like I didn't do a good job of checking the calendars or scheduling at an appropriate time. Right. Is she typically short in emails like that?

5:14Yes, but there's also plenty of examples where she includes like lots of emojis or rah-rah kind of comments. Right. I asked that because I have a colleague who's very short in all her emails and I just think of her as someone who's efficient and it doesn't always land great with me, but I also recognize it's just her style. But it sounds like this person sends short, curt emails like that one, but also ones that aren't as short. Is that right? Yeah.

5:41Yeah. What's another example of the behavior that's problematic for you? Yeah. There's a big project in which they're asking for incremental funding to support. And because it's high level and she's above me, she sometimes talks directly to the VP's above.

5:59But then I was in a meeting last week where they were trying to get approval for one aspect. And the VP is for like, I'm not sure what the money is being spent on. Like it's not clear. So I don't want to prove this extra part of it when I don't really understand the base plan. And that would have been a great opportunity for me to say, like, Hey, let me explain exactly what it is because that should be my role. But I've been left out of a lot of those conversations and emails. And so in a meeting where I could have had a lot of impact and value, I was just a spectator.

6:29So you didn't have the information you needed to speak up even though that would have been expected of you in your role? It would have been expected of me in my role and it would have been a value add. Right, because you could have helped get the approval for the funding. So what ended up happening in that meeting? So they didn't agree on the meeting and like emotions ran a little bit high and then it came out later via an email again that I wasn't included on that they did approve it. So the VPs like worked it in the background and sent it.

6:58directly to her without including me. How did you find out it had been approved? In my like weekly meeting with the team, I was kind of asking for a follow-up because I wanted to share my perspective of like, hey, like something's going on in the background where like the VPs don't feel like they have the information. So, you know, trying to start the discussion of like, do we need to all be included? Yeah. What's the missing link and try to open it up as a forum? And they're like, oh no, it got approved. Let me forward it to y'all. Oh wow.

7:25Okay. Right. Right. Were you the only one in the room who didn't know? Yeah. Interesting. Okay. So, and I guess that that's another question is, do you see this colleague of yours exhibit the same behavior toward others in terms of cutting them out or being abrupt? Or does it feel like it's specifically to you?

7:47I think she knows that to other people, but it's because we work so closely when she was my manager and then now in this new position. It just seems like it happens most frequently and like most acutely with me. Yep, that makes sense. Okay. So you mentioned you want a good working relationship with her. It sounds like you don't want her to stand in the way of you getting promoted. What else would you say your goal is with this relationship?

8:14I also see it as like an opportunity of, you know, practicing with the superstars on the team, whatever team I joined with other organizations. Like I think there will probably always be examples of people that are trying to be number one always. And so really how to like manage that or work with them and create more of like a team mentality. Yeah, I love that because I do think dealing with your most difficult colleague or the one who's closest to you who's causing issues for you does help you learn how to navigate all sorts of relationships. Yes, for sure. Yeah. And I will say it's very tempting in these situations to figure out who's to blame. And you and I could sit here and say she is completely to blame. And I'm sure that would feel great. But the problem with that is we don't have control over her. You're not going to force her to be paved differently. I have obviously no control over her. So what we have to figure out is

9:10What role are you playing in this dynamic? And what role can you play in creating a more healthy dynamic? And so the very first thing, let's talk about office politics for a moment, because I'm getting the sense, and correct me if I'm wrong. I mean, you said this, you're just not a political person. You're happy to let someone else shine. You're not sort of putting your ego out there. I'm hearing that loud and clear, right? You're naughty, but is that right? Yes, yes. Good, good, good. I agree.

9:39So I think one of the things to think about when you're dealing with a political operator, one of the questions to ask yourself, is there part of their behavior that I either admire or that I may even be jealous of? Is she effective? I mean, it sounds like she's gotten this promotion. It sounds like she's pretty well respected. The VPs are going to her or willing to listen to her. Are there aspects of the way she sort of plays the politics game that you would like to emulate?

10:08Oh, for sure. I mean, she's extremely talented and just good at her job and she's extremely confident. And, you know, whenever someone asks for her opinion, very decisive. Those are all qualities that I know I need to work on and would like to be better at. And then the skillful way she like navigates all the backwaters and uses influence and her connections and like the right timed insight has made her like a total asset. And so I do really appreciate that.

10:36without maybe the downside of making team members feel excluded or not letting them play their full position. Yeah. Playing off as politics is not necessarily a bad thing. A lot of us have negative feelings about it, but it's not necessarily a bad thing unless you're doing it at the detriment of others.

10:56So you're doing it in a way that hinders their career, makes them look bad. And that's sort of where the know it all behavior comes in. It sounds like she really wants to be the person who has all of the information, all of the knowledge, the sort of hub of these VPs, your team, her team. And that can be an effective role to play as long as you're doing it while lifting others up. The problem is when she's trying to outshine or trying to make others look bad. So that's one thing I want to sort of keep in mind is like, are there ways that you could learn from her what she's doing that you would want to emulate in some way? And that's obviously not going to necessarily change the dynamic. But she may gain some respect for you if she sees you being a little more politically savvy. Obviously, it's something she values. So if there's ways in which you can

11:52Play the game a little bit in an effort to help everyone right not to outshine her not to compete with her my sense is given that how Ego defensive she is that she would really be sensitive to competition and might sort of amp up her behavior if you were to be seen as competing with her. But are there ways you can play the game, bring in VP's, have some of those back channel conversations which aren't always bad, right? But in a way that helps the team and maybe even includes her, right? That's the other thing I think oftentimes when we're dealing with people who are exhibiting these difficult behaviors is can we model the behavior we want them to actually exhibit?

12:37So including her in these and say, Hey, I was going to go talk to this VP about funding for this. Do you want to join me? Right? Showing her I want you to be my partner in this. And ideally, she then reciprocates the same. How does that sound as a tactic? Is that something you could try? Can you imagine doing that?

12:57Yeah, I hadn't thought about it before as like a way for her to see me and like respect also that like I can do it and get it done. I kind of felt like we had a dichotomy of like she always says it this way. I'm gonna do it this way and now I kind of see the value of like you know maybe it can creep a little bit more towards the middle.

13:14And hopefully, she would do the same, right? In an ideal situation. Now, I'm sure there are people listening going, she'll never do that. And you may even be thinking, why would I trust this woman who leaves me out of meetings, who's rude to me in front of all of my colleagues? I think it's less about trust and more about experimenting. So what can you actually do? Could you try modeling some of the behavior and see how she responds? And really, Setting up, okay, I'm gonna do that for a week. I'm gonna do that for two weeks and see what kind of response I get. The dichotomy you're talking about too, if she does it this way, I do it this way, that I think can be really dangerous because we start to polarize like, she's bad, she's a political operator, I'm collaborative, I'm easy to get along with. And then we start to interpret everything they do.

14:03in that polarization or in that dichotomy, just more proof. It's the confirmation bias, more proof that she's bad, more proof that she's a political operator. But I would challenge yourself to see are there ways I could be more like her and sort of draw her closer to the middle so that we're in it together? I think that's so true.

14:23Because she definitely has moments where she is great and a true team member. And then other times where I feel like she probably stresses and falls back on some of these other behaviors. And I've been trying to think these last couple of weeks that she's new on her job with a promotion. And now that she's working with a client, she's a little bit further removed from the core functions that the team that I work on. And so she's probably trying to...

14:47do what she's best at and feels familiar and exert that power that she's used to having while trying to make a good impression. What you just said, you're giving her a lot of empathy. You're putting yourself in her shoes. You're recognizing the pressures she's under. Have you mentioned any of that to her? Is that the kind of conversation you might have with her? I have tried a little bit this week. She's always quick to change the subject and I think it's partially because I don't think she wants to admit that.

15:15that she's struggling. And then I think the other part is like since she's above me because she was previously my manager, she quickly wants to turn it on me. Like, how's your promotion, you know, experience going? Like, how's this team doing like that kind of stuff and like really tries to turn it back on me. So what I had said to her is like, you know, we were both working at night and I saw that she was online and we started like slacking and was kind of like, her things have been really intense.

15:44in your new job like how are things going like checking in and she's like yeah you know we're trying to build the plane as we go and like it seems impossible to keep everyone on the same page and then it was like that is a really hard situation to be in how are you doing with it like emotionally and she's like oh it'll be fine just working it out what's up with you right you kind of get close to it and then immediately kind of shuts down and yeah switches And that's the ego defensiveness, right? And it's easy to feel that as rejection, but I think you can recognize that as her trying to protect herself. And that's not a bad thing to protect yourself. It just doesn't feel great when you're trying to make a connection. But you're part of that, empathizing with her, recognizing the pressure she's under. You can feel proud of having done that. And I think whether or not she reacts in the moment, she feels that.

16:36But you're reminding me because you mentioned this conversation happening on Slack. Do you have any in-person interactions with her now or are you all entirely remote? We work in different cities. And so while we are on video camera and stuff, it's yeah, there's not like the same opportunity to kind of be in-person, hallway kind of chat, go out for a drink or something. Yeah. Okay. And had you worked in the same city before when she managed you? Yeah. And we came to the office like three days a week.

17:05Got it. Okay. So lots of in-person time. And that's helpful to know too, because some of her curtness or some of her sort of brusque behavior may also just be about the medium in which you're interacting. It's, you know, Slack, email, even video call. It's much harder for us to connect as humans. And someone who's not naturally empathetic, I wouldn't necessarily diagnose her as that. But if you're not naturally empathetic, it's hard to express empathy and care and compassion, especially if you're also under a lot of pressure and worried about yourself and willing to sort of throw others under the bus in order to get what you want for your career. So in that kind of slight conversation where I was trying to express empathy and like ask her how she's doing and she, you know, try to pivot the conversation away from herself, is there a way I could have used that opportunity to kind of say like, hey, I know you're under a lot of stress, but also we need to kind of fix

18:03our own issue or like how I knew that's what I was trying to get at in the moment but I wasn't sure how to make that hard to get it when she didn't want to talk about it either. Yeah well I think you made the right choice not to bring it up then for two reasons. One is I think if you had expressed empathy and then said hey I know you're under a lot of pressure but we still need to collaborate it would have looked as if your empathy was a little bit manipulative right like I'm just giving you empathy because I want you to be in a better working relationship with me.

18:32The second reason is it's just so hard to bring up that stuff on Slack. You don't have the nuance of her facial expression, her body language. You wouldn't be able to pick up on a lot of things that you really need to. So I think it was the right choice then. However, I do think the instinct to ask her what's going on with us or why are you leaving me out of meetings or even to say, Success here is going to depend on us collaborating and I don't quite feel like we've gotten off on the right foot in this new relationship. What's your view on that? I think those are all really helpful things to bring up, but I would try to do that by phone or by video chat because I think doing it just in text, especially given the examples you've given so far of how she's behaved on Slack or email, make me think that's not going to be a very fruitful conversation.

19:28you know, the only thing I would have said in that conversation you had with her is when she deflected it and said, how are you doing? And clearly didn't want to talk. I might have ended that conversation by just saying, hey, if you ever want to chat about the pressures you're under, I'm here to do that, right? Just sort of making sure it was clear that you were there to also help her and that you are interested in a collaborative interaction rather than one that's combative. So one observation I also want to make And I think this might be clear to you, but is that it does seem like it's not an all negative relationship. That it's what researchers call ambivalent relationship or even like almost a frenemy would be the sort of colloquial. Would you characterize the relationship that way? Yeah, I would say.

20:18We are like good friends when things are going well. And I feel, you know, she really does have my best interests at heart and like cares about me as a person. And we've hung out outside of work like many times. When things are hard in the office, it then makes me feel like we are actually friends. And so yeah, as a layer of complication, because I'm like, I know in a lot of ways she does care about me. And so it's like, how do I raise this issue? Because I don't want her to, you know, feel bad. But it has to be obvious to her too, I would think.

20:48What do you think she thinks of the situation? Do you think she thinks, well, no, we're friends. There's no issue here. Do you think she's recognizing what's happening? I think she probably thinks, oh, it's just a part of doing business. We're just moving and grooving and keeping things moving along. I think I take it more personally, and I don't think she necessarily intends it. But I think she has to be somewhat aware of the consequences or how it plays out. Yeah.

21:17It'll be interesting to find out if she's picking up on that. Part of me, of course, wants to bring her into this conversation right now and say, what's going on? How are you seeing this? Because I imagine she would say things that would surprise us both about why she's behaving the way she is, what she makes of her behavior. And that may be it, is that she may think leaving you out of meetings and Having these back-channel conversations is effective and she's not thinking about the negative consequences for you. Or she may be thinking she's sparing you. I'm leaving Olivia off this meeting because she's in this new role and overwhelmed and she doesn't need to be there. Do you think that's possible? Yeah, I think that's possible and I think she's just like, what's the most direct way of getting it done? I want to talk to the decision-maker, you know, influence whoever I need to influence.

22:08I think to your earlier point, if she doesn't view me as being as skilled in politics or being able to influence people in the same way, I'm just like ancillary. Yeah. Yeah. But one of the things that when someone moves from being a direct report to appear, one of the pieces of advice that I find really helpful is to try to reset the relationship. So she sees you as someone junior, less experienced, maybe even as a mentee.

22:36right? Someone who she's helping develop. But now you've elevated to being her peer and someone she really needs. She may not have made that mental shift in the same way that you have. When you took on this new role and she moved into her new role, was there any discussion between you two of how you should interact or how things might change? I try to have the conversation of, you know, in this new role, what are your preferred methods of communication? Like, We used to slack all the time in our normal day to day. Like, do you do you still want to do that? Or is like your day looked different and you would rather have like more scheduled time or scheduled meetings or, you know, something urgent is happening. How would you like to handle it? And she basically said like, I don't know yet. Like, I don't know my job. And I can't answer that. But also kind of didn't I think answered for herself, but didn't necessarily recognize that I was trying to

23:31I think to your point like reset the relationship a little bit of like, hey, we're in new roles now. How do we like reset that? So that's a good point. Maybe I should circle back and try again. Could you imagine having a conversation with her where you said, I just want to touch base about how we're working together now that it's been a few months. And there's a few things I want to share with you. And I'd love to hear from you about how you think it's working. Is that a conversation you'd feel willing to have?

24:01Yeah. I think that's probably a needed conversation. Yeah. I think this direct conversation of giving her feedback, we're going to talk about it as if it's like super easy to do. But let's just acknowledge that this is really hard. But I think there's two things you'd want to do in that conversation. One, as we're talking about reset the relationship, right? As saying, we've been in this new configuration for a few months. I just want to talk about how things are going.

24:31and how things could be better. You know, I want to hear from you what your perspective is, right? So it's meant to be a real collaborative conversation. If you feel open to it and willing, I think it's also an opportunity to give her some feedback. And I'm going to pause there and just say the idea of giving her feedback, how does that land for you? Are you comfortable with that? Like on paper? Yes. I think when it's like face-to-face over a video chat and saying, hey, you know, you're really like Direct on email and CC to everyone about like a calendar and bite It also feels kind of like silly or petty to bring up So I also struggle with that of like especially when like some time has passed and you're like less in the moment or like the project worked out eventually I feel kind of hard circling back and like bringing it back up. Yeah, even though it would help future Yeah, and it is it is hard to bring up things when you're like

25:29One, it just feels like, is this really about me? And I think as we were talking about earlier, you have to get out of the like whose fault is this. The reality is the dynamic between you clearly isn't as healthy as it could be or as it is in other circumstances. And I think that's something to really lean on. If you had no positive interactions with her, we would be strategizing in a very different way. But I think you can give her feedback that starts with, we work really well together. I feel like you have respect for me. I've learned so much from you. I admire the way you do X, Y, and Z. Or here's something I learned from you that I've really been able to use in my current role. I'm a big fan of genuine flattery, especially for someone who's as eco-defensive as she sounds. It helps to calm that reaction. And then I think you can say, there's also been moments

26:25that I've struggled in our interactions. And I know some of this might be me, but I just want to share it with you in one example. And I'm not saying this would necessarily be the example, but you can say, you know, when you responded to me about the calendar invite and you all being out of town, it felt brusque. And the story I was telling myself was that you weren't concerned about how it might make me look to everyone else. How did you see it?

26:54Right, and then you sort of get her to start talking and she might say I don't know what you're talking about I was in a rush I was texting you from the grocery store while I was trying to get eight things in my cart who knows what her reaction will be but it shows her that you're paying attention to how she's treating you and you want to be treated differently so I'm not saying that feedback conversation is gonna go well and she goes say oh my gosh you're so right but what you've succeeded in doing no matter how she reacts is telling her I'm paying attention to how you treat me. And it's important that I feel treated with respect. Do you think that's a kind of conversation you might be able to have? Yeah, I really like the way you framed that too. Like, you know, the story I was telling myself about it, I think that will help a lot. What if she goes into like the old kind of like manager giving feedback role when the conversation is meant to like reset?

27:50Yeah, that's why I think having the reset conversation is important before you give her feedback so you don't sort of fall back into that. I would sort of give her room to do that. That might be a normal reaction. I think the minute you start pushing back on her and that kind of stuff, things are going to feel even more tense. So I would sort of give her room and say, that's helpful feedback, assuming it is, right? I really want to focus on how we now work together as peers.

28:16just sort of trying to reframe it. And I would find ways to say, well, now that we're peers, I would use that language as much as possible. If you start to have an emotional reaction to, oh my gosh, she's treating me like I'm her direct report. Why is she not respecting me? Like I would allow yourself to have that emotional reaction, but sort of try to give it a moment before you respond. I think sort of introducing resistance to her.

28:43in that conversation will make things worse and I don't want you to be a doormat I don't want you to sit there and take like if she's like well you did this and you did this you go oh thank you for the feedback right I think you can say wow I didn't know you felt this way I need some time to think about that what I really want to focus on now is how do we interact as peers and if there's something she says you could do differently that you genuinely feel you could do differently say it Right? Like, that's incredible modeling to say, wow, I didn't realize that thing I was doing was causing you these problems. That's an easy thing for me to fix. Happy to do it. Yeah. Right? Because that also breaks the polarization of like, because she I'm guessing in her head, she's thinking, who's to blame? Who's to blame? Because that's what most of us do. And, you know, you have to sort of give her that room to have that reaction, but then model to her, no, no, we're in this

29:39together. One of the things I talk about in the book that is so helpful to me when I'm dealing with someone I'm having a challenge with, instead of seeing me and that other person at sort of opposite ends of a tug of war, which is very easy, that's my instinct. It's me against them and I have to win and I have to pull harder and I'm going to pull them on the ground, right, is to think about Me and them sitting at a table, there's a problem we need to solve together. That problem might be our relationship. That problem might be getting funding for this project. That problem might be the dynamic between us when things are stressful. Whatever that is, that mental image of seeing us on the same side of the table I think can be really helpful. All right, so it sounds like I need to have both like a reset.

30:24conversation with her and maybe like a feedback conversation. Yeah, I think that's right. I'm talking about sort of two separate conversations that might happen at the same time or they might be separate at separate times. Let me just sort of summarize again. The reset conversation is we've been working for a few months together in this new configuration or our new dynamic. I just want to check in with you.

30:48see how you think it's going. I want to share a little bit about how I think it's going and I want to talk about how we can work better together. And I think really you start by asking her questions. Like I think sometimes we make so many assumptions about how someone thinks and feels that we forget to ask them like what's actually going on. So you see that as a collaborative conversation. Assuming that goes well in the moment, I think you can also say, you know, I'm glad we're talking about this.

31:16And this is the feedback conversation because I've noticed that it feels like sometimes we aren't interacting as well as we could. And for example, you know, and you can bring up the sort of harsh reaction to the invite or being left out of a meeting. I think that's another one that might be a helpful example and say, this was the situation. This is what you did. This was the impact on me. This is the story I'm telling myself about that. I'm sure it's not true. What's your take?

31:46And what I just described is often called the situation behavior impact framework. So you describe the situation, the behavior she's exhibiting that's problematic for you or causing issues and then discuss the impact. And then the story I'm telling myself about this is helpful because it makes it clear you're not saying this is the truth. You're saying this is my perspective. What's your perspective? Is that clearer? Yeah, that helps a lot. Yeah. Do you feel up for having both those conversations. I know I keep asking that, but I just want to make sure the advice I'm giving you is actually useful and it's something you can use. Yeah, of course. And I also, I mean, I'm like picking up like so many nuggets on how to phrase and position stuff. I love saying, I'm so lucky that we're working together. And like, I really do like this. And I'm like glad we're in it together. And you know, if anyone can figure it out, it's us. I'm really kind of like shifting into that positive collaborative opening.

32:43Because that's something I'm worried about of like getting her on the defensive and just not being able to crawl back out of that. Yeah. So let's talk about that for a moment because there's a very good chance based on what you've said about her that she would get defensive and say, I was just in a rush. Why would you take that so personally or that wasn't about you? And you can say, oh, that's good to know. I was taking it that way.

33:05you know, it'd be helpful in the future if you either didn't CC everyone or you just took a little more time with the email just because everyone else saw that as well. I'm very concerned about my reputation with this team. I don't want people to think that I was not thoughtful about when to schedule this meeting. Wow, that's really good. Yeah, that's really good. I'm glad. You know, one other thought just came to mind.

33:29Before you have sort of these sit-down conversations with her and again, I highly encourage doing it face-to-face It sounds like you're in different cities so that I'll be challenging But even if there's a when she maybe visits your office you visit hers if you can have this conversation face-to-face It generally goes much better We tend to have more empathy for someone when we can look them in the eyes even more so in person than on video But if that's not possible you can do a phone call you can do a video call But one other thing you might try is I wonder if there's in response to certain things, like being left off of a meeting, for example, is what if you just sent her a very straightforward slack that said, oh, I saw that you all met. Next time, can you please include me in that meeting? If you just made the direct request, how do you think that would go over? I think she'd be like, OK, sure. But I was trying to keep the meeting small or keep it focused.

34:28agree to a comedy but then kind of like say well yeah but like I don't know what you're asking if it was important for you to be there I would have included you all and so I I don't know if it would necessarily translate to the next meeting. Yeah and it may be that you need to be clear you know if you made that request and she said sure yeah but you didn't need to be there or I'm trying to keep the meeting small and And you could just respond, I appreciate that. For me, it's helpful to be kept in the loop on this because I will need to follow up. I need to keep my team informed. I see that as an important part of my role. Whatever the reason is, just sort of give that to her. When I was talking before about how we make so many assumptions, she may be thinking, Olivia is trying to insert herself into every meeting, right?

35:19Like, that might be her assumption. And if you make it clear, you have a real reason for why you want to be there. And then what's helpful about that, when you do get to that feedback conversation, maybe being left out of meetings is one of the behaviors you explain. You say, you know, I asked you to include me and you still didn't include me. And the story I'm telling myself is that, you know, value my input or you're not hearing me. But what's really going on? Yeah. Yeah.

35:47So say we have a good reset, a great feedback conversation, lots of empathy. And then a month or two later, something small happens, like the calendar invite. Do I try to set up another call or send a Slack? And I'll be like, here's another example. I'm just thinking the bigger things I feel like I might be able to circle back on because we talked about this, it's important. But what to do about some of those small digs.

36:12Yeah. I'm so glad you asked this question because this is important. It's not as if you're going to have these two conversations, you're going to reset, she's going to hear you and everything's going to be great. Chances are she will continue to do some of those behaviors. So you have a choice to make. Well, one thing I will say, you might end the feedback conversation by saying, I hope we can keep the channel open. If you have any feedback for me, if I have feedback for you, I'm hoping we'll continue to have conversations like this. Assuming it goes well, I think that's a nice way to end.

36:41So if fast forward two weeks later, she leaves you off the invite as soon as it happens, as close to as when it happens as you can when you're calm. So if you're worked up, I wouldn't try to do it right away. But once you've had a moment to sort of process and sit with it, maybe pick up the phone, maybe set up a quick video call and just say, hey, this is one of those times that I mentioned. And again, this is how I'm viewing it. I know you might not see it the same way, but I wanted to be honest with you about how this landed with me. And the thing you want to be careful about is that it doesn't feel like you're monitoring her behavior and you're sort of keeping a checklist of like, well, you did that, you did that because she will get, any of us would get defensive, right? If someone gave me feedback was like, can you do this differently? And they're like, you're not doing it, you're not doing it, you're not doing it. I would be like, give me a moment people, right? Like I'm human here. So.

37:36you know, I think you want to not do it every single time and maybe let it pass a few times. But you definitely want to talk about it as quickly as you can soon after it happened and just sort of casually be like, this is one of those moments I was referring to. I'd love to be included in that meeting. Not in a like, gotcha kind of way, like I caught you doing the thing I told you you were doing. But in a like, this is an example, could you include me in that in that meeting and trying to keep your voice and your tone very neutral as opposed to sort of I told you so, right? Yeah. Do you have any other questions about what we've talked about or how to interact with her? Is there anything else that was on your mind? I guess any advice for someone like...

38:23starting out or trying to build like some of those political skills in order to maybe gain more respect from her. Yes. So going back to the beginning of the conversation of how do you emulate some of what she does, right? How do you get better at that political operating yourself and do it in a way that feels good to you? And I think there's a couple of things. One is she may not be the best model because it sounds like she's doing it in a way that certainly leaves you feeling slightly offended. Who knows if others feel the same way about her? But I would look around and see, are there people who do what she's doing, who play the political game in a way that is beneficial for others? My guess is some of those VPs that you're interacting with, maybe someone on another team. There's someone you can identify who actually does a really good job and does it in a way that's helpful to others, not detrimental or harmful.

39:20to others. And that's one of the things I try to do when I'm trying to build the new skills. I'm like, let me find who's actually doing it and watch them. And political operating is actually one of the things that is sort of easy to watch because they're actually having the conversations. Oh, I know she went and spoke to him before the meeting. Okay, what happened there? And if it's someone even you trust, you could even say, this is a skill I'm trying to build. Do you have any advice for me? At some point, I would like to see you ask her for advice. I just think it's too loaded at this moment. But at some point, if things get a little bit better, if you have this feedback conversation that goes well, if she starts to change some of her behavior, you might even say, you know, I recognize you have political skills. I do not. And I'd love to learn from you about how to do that. Talk about calming the ego, right? Now you've positioned her as an expert. What I like about that question or that request is it also causes her to reflect

40:16on when her behavior is helpful and when it's not. Because if she has to teach someone else how to do it, she's not going to teach you how to be a jerk. She'll be focused more on what are the ways that it actually benefits me. And then again, I'm a huge fan of experiments. I would say try it out. So if one of the political moves that you think is helpful is having the meeting before the meeting, for example, that's a common one, right? Try it out. See how it goes. What felt okay for you about it. What felt awkward for you about it? Did it actually help? Did it end up offending others who knew you did have that meeting? Just try it out and see what works and what doesn't. Is that helpful, Olivia? Really helpful. I feel like this is like the most important career conversation I've had. I'm so glad. That's helpful. Yeah.

41:12If you want to learn more about how to work with a political operator or otherwise difficult person, you can order my book, Getting Along, through HBR's online store, Amazon, or your favorite bookstore. And if you prefer to listen, there's the audiobook I narrated as well. HBR has put together a toolkit to accompany the book that includes more of these episodes as well as worksheets and an assessment to help you put the book's advice into practice.

41:38Find the toolkit by going to store.hbr.org and searching Getting Along. Let me know what you think of this series by emailing women at work at hbr.org. Also, HBR has more podcasts to help you manage yourself, your team, and your organization. Find them at hbr.org slash podcasts or search HBR in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.

42:05Women at Work's editorial and production team is Amanda Cursey, Maureen Hope, Tina Toby Mack, Rob Eckhart, Erica Truxler, Ian Fox, and Hannah Bates. My co-host, Amy Bernstein, will be back with me for Season 8, starting October 17th. I'm Amy Gallo. Thanks for listening.