Women at Work - May We Recommend…Coaching Real Leaders

0:00Hey, Emily here. I want to tell you about a new HBR podcast that'll give you an edge at work. It's called Coaching Real Leaders, and it's hosted by longtime career coach, Miriel Wilkins. Miriel takes you inside real-life coaching sessions. She talks with high performers who are working to overcome challenges and grow as leaders. You'll finish each episode with insights and guidance that'll help you grow too. In this episode, Miriel speaks with Grace, a woman who's just been passed over for a promotion that would have put her on track to the C-suite.

0:29Grace's out-of-the-box approach to solving business problems has made her successful in her current role. But now, in order to make it to the top, she'll have to reposition herself. I'm Uriel Wilkins, and this is Coaching Real Leaders, part of the HBR Presents Network. I'm a longtime executive coach who works with highly successful leaders who fit a bump in the road. My job is to help them get over that bump by clarifying their goals and figuring out a way to reach them.

1:10I typically work with clients over the course of several months. But on this show, we have a one-time coaching meeting, focusing on a specific leadership challenge they're facing. Chances are, you haven't climbed to a leadership role at your organization without being pretty good at your job. Today's guest is struggling at a pivotal transition period in her career, where she wants to keep moving up the ladder, but she isn't sure the message is coming across.

1:42To protect confidentiality, we don't use real names on this show, so we'll refer to today's guest as Grace. She leads a sales team in a pretty corporate environment and has had a number of different roles at the company before rising to her current position as vice president. She didn't intend to become a senior executive when she started her career, but it turns out she's enjoyed it and she's been really good at charting her own path. I have kind of made my leadership run.

2:10by almost being off-brand, you know, being a lone wolf sort of anti-culture, like I'm being very real, being very transparent. And I was very resistant to kind of the corporate culture. And so I kind of got this reputation for, you know, she's not sort of the process person who follows all the rules. But when we have a product and we need to go big, she's going to go and figure it out and crush it.

2:35even during the crazy year under pandemic lockdown, Grace surpassed her annual goals. And now she's wondering how she can take it to the next level, which for her would be joining the C-suite alongside the most senior executives at the company. And I am part of that sort of inner circle now, and so I've had to kind of make this transition. I think now is kind of what's next. And I think my big question is, How do I translate my current brand, which I actually think they do find valuable, but it's how do I repackage this as someone that is different in kind and valuable because there's some creativity and innovation there, but also someone that they will put in front of the board because they know that I'll do an okay job. So building more credibility on some of the things that I need to have in order to get to that next level.

3:29Grace is focused, determined and works hard at her company and yet somehow she ended up in a situation that a lot of us may find ourselves in at some point in our careers. The point at which you don't get the promotion in spite of all your hard work. Grace recently found out that she was passed over for a more senior position. She now finds herself reporting to her former peer and there's an additional layer that's been created between her and the company's CEO. All of which has led her to wonder, what has she done wrong? And ask the question, how do I convey that I'm C-suite material? And so this is where we pick up our coaching conversation. I ask Grace how she feels about being passed over for this promotion. You know, I had this moment where I was really, I was frustrated. And I just felt like I'm doing what you've asked me to do and I'm crushing it. And in the midst of that, I kind of get this surprise because it's one layer between.

4:27myself and the CEO, it just didn't feel good and it didn't feel right. And really there was not much to do about it. And so that led me to realize, and it's been something that's kind of followed me across this tenure that I've had at this company, is I have kind of a brand of being sort of the wild animal, right? So that's perfect for go-to-market. It's really good for what I have been doing. But I had this moment where I thought, Hmm these skills this kind of passion for inspiring my team Just figuring out the market and being scrappy These are great for what I'm doing if I want to continue to do the same thing over and over again But I'm not sure this is going to cross into the C-suite, you know And as you get higher up as you know, there are fewer positions, right? So I just had this moment of

5:17I probably don't want to keep doing the same thing over and over again. It's so much work and it's so stressful. And I just felt like I'm not sure I know how to move to the next layer. My whole brand has been kind of about, I don't really care about the promotion. I don't really care about the money. What I care about is like my heart in this product, my heart with this team. So how do I then march into the C-suite and have them not feel nervous? And I realized I don't know the answer to that question. Okay.

5:47I understand. So what I'm hearing for you is really this question around, how do I position myself in a way that makes me a viable candidate for the C-suite? Correct. Without losing what I'm good at. Right. While remaining true to who you are and your contributions and basically, for lack of a better word, your authenticity. And this is key because...

6:14I mean, there's so much written about like be authentic, the authentic leader, et cetera. And I heard a colleague once say, and I've always remembered it. He said, you know, you could be authentic all you want, but you know what? You can authenticize yourself out of a job. And so the key is how do you balance being authentic while still being relevant? And I think that's that's the tension, right? Exactly. And it's really interesting because when I started in this job right out of college, I was like, this corporate stuff is not for me. Here I am, however many years later, that worked for me. Then it actually turned out that who I am authentically worked for these types of roles and I ended up moving up in the company. I enjoyed it for the first time. I felt like I'm really good at this. I love it. Then I kept performing, performing. Then I had this moment that was like, but I just found myself getting deeper into the C-suite and deeper into the leadership meetings.

7:14And it's like this transition is happening and I'm not sure how to bridge it. But if I went head to head with someone who's super analytical, I'm not going to win that fight. I have spent a lot of time, because I've gotten that feedback, right? You've got to be data driven. And I've spent a lot of time over the last few years really developing those types of skills. But it's not my natural flow. Yeah. But here's the thing, right? The more you transition into a leadership role rather than just a functional.

7:41role. The more you transition into, okay, now not only do I need to have functional expertise, but I'm also a leader in this organization, particularly at the C-suite, you sort of are operating with two jobs. You have the job of leading your function, and then you have the job of being an enterprise-wide, you know what we call an enterprise-wide leader, meaning you can think strategically, you can think about the overall business.

8:09whether it's people, finances, operational, even though you have responsibility for one functional lane. So with that frame in mind, there is nobody who ever jumps into or transitions into the C-suite role where all of the skills naturally flow for them. I mean, I have yet to meet that person. Maybe they're out there, you know, that special unicorn.

8:35But there's always a muscle that is stronger than the other. The question is, is the one that is less strong, does it have enough strength for them to be able to perform? We don't need to optimize all the muscles, but it needs to be good enough that it doesn't cause any damage and it enables them to take on that executive role. So this notion of, you know, what comes more naturally to me or what tends to be what I lean into doesn't naturally flow, isn't necessarily an obstacle.

9:05I think the question is, do you have the capability to build out the other skills that are necessary at the level at which they are needed in the executive role? Let's take a pause here. Grace's story is a typical one of what got you to this level isn't what's necessarily going to get you to the next level.

9:31And where she's stumped is in not knowing how to make that bridge between what she's doing now and what that natural next step in her career would be. Especially when it seems like the skills she brings are a bit different than what's expected. But it's important to understand what exactly that gap is. So I wanted to dig deeper into why she thinks she hasn't gotten the promotion yet. I asked her, did her boss think she didn't want the job or that she couldn't do the job? Here's what she said.

10:04I think he was articulating, he doesn't think I can do the job. That's not what he was saying, but that's what I heard. And I say that because a few years ago, I actually had a job offer from, you know, someone came and kind of poached me out and I had this job offer and I tried to leave and they were like, no, no, no. But at the time, I felt like I was in a different position, which was they wanted to save me, they saw the value. But the reason they saw the value is because what I wanted to do at that time, and what they wanted me to do aligned. And now I'm shifting a little bit and saying, I don't want to keep doing the same thing over and over again. I need to do something more. And now they're going, well, I don't know. We can talk about that. But I can sense they're nervous. All right. And to what extent do you have a sense of what they may perceive as the gap? Meaning, what is the difference between what you can do and what they think you need to be able to do to be

11:02for you to have gotten that promotion, for example? I think that I definitely tend to move on gut feeling, sort of an intuition. And I have had to train myself to be more data driven. I think they value that data driven perspective so much that I'm kind of a distraction a little bit. I don't think they see value in what I'm bringing is the issue. Yeah.

11:28Well, they you know as you said before they see value in what you're bringing in the role that you're in. Yeah, exactly You know and I think I think what I'm sensing is that there's sort of this baseline price of admissions entry to that next level which is this data-driven acumen that is sort of seen as a threshold that maybe You're crossing more recently, but hasn't been part of your package. Yep Exactly. Right. And so this data driven piece, is that something that's sort of part of the organization's DNA? Yes. So you're a bit of an outlier in not having that at the core of your DNA? I feel like we have come a long way. I think there are a lot of type A data driven people in the company.

12:20and I've been able to outperform many of them, and most people want to come work with me. In the jobs that they have given me, I've been able to perform in a way that I don't think they've been able to get out of kind of the standard, you know, in-the-box type of approach. And that is why, like, I've shifted from, this is not the place for me to, gosh, maybe this is the place for me, maybe I am bringing something. I'm, like, outperforming everybody, and people are taking a second look. And so I think there is an appetite.

12:48Now for that and I think as a leader they look to me and and they uphold me as a leader and a way to be and They're like oh, this is great. This is great. This is great The fear still remains in terms of letting go of control I think that's why it's so important how I package it or talk about it because if there is a shot at it I do think I have an opportunity to lead and be different in kind and and actually Bridge that and I think they would be open to it But I have to do it in such a way that it doesn't feel threatening that it makes sense to them that it doesn't feel scattered This type of thing it gets really like messy and I just need a tight kind of articulation of what is the value of that Grace has made the connection that what she brings to the table as a leader is valued in her current role But not necessarily valued at the senior executive level

13:48And she's super focused on, if I could just get my point across more clearly, they would see what I bring is a value at that level. It's almost like she wants to convince them of something, but she's not quite sure what she's convincing them of. So before she can even craft a message, that elevator pitch that she wants, she's got to take a step back and ask herself, what is the value that I can bring at the next level? Let's pick the conversation back up. So one of the things I want you to think about is What is the impact that you actually want to make? Like we've been talking about this next level role being on an executive team more from a positional standpoint, but what's the impact? What's the difference that you actually want to be making? I want people to feel really inspired and energized. I want people to come to work and feel like the strengths they bring.

14:49are leveraged and celebrated, and that the areas that are developmental are supported. And I feel like that energy is very powerful, both for the firm, but also for the world. I mean, I know that it sounds really grandiose, but I really feel like when I work with a team, it's not hard for me. Each person is so unique.

15:19And I look at them and I'm literally amazed by the strengths that people bring. And I just feel like when people feel supported in that way, they're motivated, they're inspired, they have ideas, they're innovative. You don't have to push people. I mean, that's what I'm trying to impact or influence. And so if we started focusing on this, I'm just gonna ask to like, I'm part of your executive team here, right? If we started focusing on this more of having people feel more valued, more recognized, more celebrated, all the things that you're clearly very passionate about. What difference would it make in our success as a firm? What difference would it make in our strategic goals and our ability to get there? I think we would much more quickly hit our revenue targets. I think we would more efficiently solve the need to be working across silos and collaborating.

16:19I think it would move us into kind of a realm where innovation or new opportunities for growth would happen more quickly. What are you basing? How are you making that connection between this focus on people that you could bring and achieving those goals? Some of it, and you can help me with this, because this is probably where I fall down, right? Which is, some of it is just from my own experience. I have seen folks that are just running through walls, working their tails off. And it's just kind of across the board, but not just working their tails off, but not in competition and total collaboration. So I'm going to go back to an original question that I had for you, which is, you know, what is the appetite for injecting that type of people orientation into the business?

17:13I think the appetite is there. I think that everything we've just gone through has helped on that front. There's almost like a chip missing and they know it and they recognize and they will speak to it. They will say, you know, we are all, you know, if you talk about the color codes and, you know, we're all red or we're blue or we're green, we don't have any yellow. And I'm like all yellow. I'm all yellow.

17:37And the types of people that are moving into management positions really do align with that too. There is just kind of a different feel to the company. So the appetite is there. The appetite is there, but they have to feel comfortable with how it's done. And I think there's even an appetite for me to take the lead on that. So for example, my boss said, listen, if this is what you love, we should get you involved with all of these things that we do that are about motivating the teams and you're good at this so like run with that you know and so there is an appetite for it. I'm going to try to expand our thinking here a little bit and talk about different scenarios because I think what you just shared is actually part of your hook, right? You're feeling like the tide is changing.

18:24You know, as you said before, it used to be a sea of red. You know, I'm assuming this is like some type of personality assessment that everyone took with different colors. And so it was a sea of red, you're like the yellow. But that there's a sense that maybe we need more yellow. And I think what you're going to want to try to validate is whether what you have been able to do with your team, not from a productivity standpoint, but more in terms of the way that it works together and the DNA that your team has.

18:54Is that something that the firm has an appetite in scaling up? Meaning when you see that you have a team that's highly collaborative, that is enormously purpose driven, that is motivated. Is that something that the organization kind of wants to scale up and infuse in other parts of the organization? Why I want to expand our thinking is I think that we kind of came into this conversation talking about what would it take, what capabilities do you need to be in the natural next role? Whereas I think that another way of possibly looking at this is what role could I possibly play? And the way that you want to think about it is in terms of impact, what's the businesses need, then you could get to, okay, well, what does a role like that look like that you might be able to pitch?

19:50It's interesting that you say that because obviously I could have long ago raised my hand and said, hey, when it's time, I want your job. I want the chief revenue officer job. And I didn't. And it's not really a job that feels great in its current iteration. So I like the way you're thinking, which is like expand your options if you don't like the options. But that is sort of my challenge. I love my job. I don't want to keep doing the same thing. I want to do it at a bigger scale. And to what extent have you articulated that, what you just articulated to me?

20:19To what extent have you articulated that to your boss? I articulated it to my boss and to the president. And I think their response was basically because of the size of the company, you can go to a smaller company and be doing what you're doing. Or, you know, you have to begin as you go up more senior, you're going to be doing the things you don't want to do. So again, I don't know if that was, we want you to do this job here. And that's your, you know, you've kind of tapped out, right? You've tapped out, which is.

20:49very possible. And I said that to them. I'm like, this might be the tap out for me at this company. You know, I felt like I want to do this, but on a broader scale here. And so you're, you're asking me questions, but I'm starting to realize that like, I'm giving you an answer, but it's in a total vacuum and isolation from what's the actual problem. And I'm dealing with only part of the information. So even this decision or even me coming to you and talking about what I can bring to the table, I don't have a sense of what you're actually looking at. What's the full scope?

21:18And how do I fit in that? And so here lies Grace's conundrum. She's moved from, how do I get my value proposition across to, wait, what is my value proposition? And she's trying to figure out if and how her own particular brand of leadership fits in the bigger scheme of things. But now she realizes that she's trying to do so in a total vacuum without a true understanding of what's needed at that next level to truly impact the company and make it further successful.

21:53And while we can sit and talk about why her boss hasn't given her more context, understanding that there's more here at play than just her, Grace is the one who's my coaching client at the moment, not her boss. She's the one I'm coaching. So I need her to better understand why she's operating in a vacuum so that she can then course correct and get the information she needs to properly think through what's next for her. So let's dive back in as she explores this very question. So what has gotten in the way?

22:26so far of you being able to engage in this way. I'm really pragmatic. What has gotten in the way of being able to just sit down and say, okay, so help me understand where it is that you want to take the organization in terms of people and this, et cetera, et cetera, all the things that we've talked about up until now? I think this is perfect what you just said, because I feel like I can sell them on myself, but I don't want to sell them on myself. I have had a tough time.

22:53getting close with my boss and with the president in sort of an authentic way, sort of all of the leadership. It's very hard to get kind of to a place of, what's the real problem? And that's where I've felt I haven't been able to sort of get through. I mean, I probably need to just ask more of the questions and engage more. And I have this tendency to, I had this belief that if I outperformed that that would be the way to succeed and move up. There's something I'm missing. There's a chip I'm missing on how am I proving to them that I can be a valuable partner. Okay. Now here's the thing and correct me if I'm wrong. I get the sense that you're waiting to be invited to the party and that if you dance hard enough, buy the right wardrobe, do all the right things, then the invitation will come.

23:54and what's happened is the invitation hasn't come. And so if that is the case, what would it look like for you to either ask for the invitation or to invite yourself to the party? And you mean just the conversations, not sort of, this is the role I want? Yes, the conversations, because I think that's where you are. I don't think you're ready for...

24:18be not ready in terms of skill-wise. I don't think the organizations are ready to say, yes, here's our role. I think there's a level of engagement that needs to happen is what I'm sensing. There has not been engagement. And I think that's, I think it's fair. And again, it goes back to kind of this like, I was the person that didn't engage. Right. You know, now this next level and I just find myself a little bit confused and it doesn't come.

24:41I don't even know how to ask because when I do ask or when I have people take the meetings, they will meet with me all the time. They're very gracious about that. But I still feel like I can't actually ask the questions. I can't actually kind of get what I need to get. Have you tried? Yeah. But I feel like I'm performing. I mean, I can give you the perfect example. So this all happened and I now have these regular meetings with my boss and they're usually the tone of, you know, we think you're.

25:08Wonderful and great and we want you to do more and what are you interested in? What do you want to do? The problem is probably that I don't really know because to your point like I want to know the landscape What do you guys need? How can I in that context be an asset? But I end up feeling like they're just he's looking at me He's like what do you want to do? And I'm like I like I want to know what you need and then I can tell you if that's and so we and so I feel like if I don't because I'm not able to articulate it in a way that he wants to hear it's frustrating to him. He wouldn't say that, but I just, I sense that they want me to be able to say, I want to do this and it's this role and it looks like this. And they can say yes or no. And what I'm saying is I have some skills. I don't see the role. So I, I think, I think you guys are playing a dance, right? Yeah. You're saying, what do you need? And they're saying, well, what do you want? And I think that you need to be sort of the.

26:06conductor of this conversation. And what that means, what that requires is that before any orchestra performance, there are many iterations before the final performance. So the first thing is we've got to stop looking at this as this like one shot conversation. Part of what frustrated you with the way things went down more recently is the lack of transparency.

26:34And so I actually think you need to aim to flip the script here and make this as transparent a process as possible in terms of how you engage. I think that there's an opportunity to reset the conversation. To go to your boss and say, look, I've been thinking about this, right? You've been asking me, what do I want? And I want to make sure that this is something that is going to be relevant, impactful, in response to what the organization needs.

27:05I think where you need to have clarity is what are the questions? I think you need to have some questions that engage him in a dialogue where you are truly listening for the need with a commitment that you will come back with some scenarios. What's key here is resetting the conversation so that you guys stop this dance and that you also communicate your desire to make this as transparent and as engaging a process and you coming to a solution as you possibly can. Okay. And that accomplishes a couple of things, Grace. One is a big piece of this is depersonalizing it, making it more around how do we address an organizational need rather than what should Grace's next role be? The second is transitioning it to a level of engagement, which to me hasn't necessarily been apparent.

28:03I think you're at a place where you need to take ownership of this transition in a similar way that you would if this was a business that you were launching. So part of what I'm going to ask you to tap into is all the strengths and capabilities and intelligence that you have doing that and how do you apply them?

28:30to launching and building this business, which is the business of grace. So when I say that, what comes up for you? Two things. One, I love that framing, and I think it kind of goes back to sort of the hope of going to this conversation, which I'm happy to own the sort of ownership of that and driving it. The second thing that comes up, and I don't want to get soft and emotional, but a lot of what I'm feeling as we're talking is Just kind of a familiarity of how I felt around my father and I think that there you know I think that that's kind of what I'm experiencing I've got these two you know these two dads and like I'm trying to outperform and I don't feel like they're kind of letting me in and I feel like in an order to get in I have to get a little bit messy and that doesn't feel good and It's hard for me. It is hard for me to

29:24I'm great. I'm good at leading but it's hard for me to work with these executives on this level and I don't know exactly why that is I don't know if it's insecurity that's like deep-seated or if it's kind of doubt or if it's but I just I am I'm struggling with it. I am struggling with it. Yeah, yeah, I mean so You know, I'm not a therapist so I can't go deep into the why it is and everyone has their authority story, which is how do I relate to authority? And your authority story often, often, not always, often comes from how you learned to relate to authority early on in your life. Once you have that sense of relating, unless you consciously intentionally

30:23shift, change the way you relate to authority? It does become familiar. You recognize it because it's habitual, right? It's like if I ate... you know if it's you know you probably had a food that you ate when you were very young that you had a really nasty experience with and no matter how for me it was fish sticks horrible horrible horrible well to this day you know here i am in my 50s if somebody puts you could put a chicken nugget in front of me and i'm like oh delicious but you put a fish stick in front of me and it's like oh my god no my experience with it in the past is dictating now how i relate to it in the present.

31:03As I'm saying it to you, I'm like, God, that's the silliest thing in the world, right? But yet we do it all the time. Until we can say exactly what I just said, okay, well that's not really helping me. And I can't really control this individual, my boss, who is a person of authority, but I can control myself in terms of how I respond to him. And if I don't want the story to be familiar, then what I can change is my role in the story. And so if we take that, what I'm gonna ask you is, how can you change your response in the face of senior level executives that would create a different dynamic than what it has up until now? I mean, I definitely think I need to engage more with them and get more info. I need to proactively get more information from them.

32:02I want us to take this piece around engagement, and I'm glad you're being honest with yourself around, hey, this is where I have difficulty, right? Isn't engaging with them. It's not comfortable. It doesn't make me feel good. It feels like there's something inauthentic in it, and that's okay. That actually means that you're doing something different. That's why it's hard, you know? That's why it feels hard. Your growth comes out of discomfort, but it is gonna feel uncomfortable, okay?

32:31And what I'm gonna suggest is let's kind of take bite-sized chunks and break it down. Let's start with how do you actually frame what the conversations are about and frame it in a way that's relevant to them. Let me go into these meetings with a set of questions. And then I do think you need to have some point of view in your back pocket, some perspective. But the perspective doesn't need to be fully baked. I think you're at the point of being able to say, I can put a stake in the ground around here are three possibilities. So my stake in the ground is I want to commit to coming back to you with a proposal around what a role could look like. Does that work for you? Yes. So what I'm suggesting here is that you break it down into parts that always lead to action and lead to something concrete rather than trying to go from zero to 100 in terms of final resolution in one or two conversations.

33:34I don't necessarily think that you have enough information and that you've built enough traction in relating to them to be able to garner what it is that you really want. I think that's completely accurate. Totally fair. Yeah. I know that what you came in with was wanting to get this crisp message around how you position it. Sometimes what we want isn't exactly what we need in the moment.

34:06The other thing is you know, and I've said this I'm just I just think it's worth repeating The skills that you are using to build a business are no different than what you need to be doing here So I want you to think about if this were your client. How would you approach it? Right? I actually think your your biggest obstacle is what we just came to a few minutes ago, which is this Tension that you feel around giving yourself permission to engage in a different way than you have before it's it's very interesting that you've connected the dots is i mean it's because i even when i would you know i'm in sales but i have never connected the dots i have connected the dots with selling my brand owning my brand but i haven't connected the dots as clearly with these individuals of you know i would tell my whole sales team go in and all you're doing is asking questions asking questions asking questions asking questions and i'm not doing that with them yeah i'm not doing that

35:05Yeah. And I think what's important here is recognizing why you didn't. And it's this story, this narrative that you've had around dealing with these types of people. And we all have those types of people, right? And not recognizing that you can actually deal with them in a different way that you have in the past. And what does that different path look like? That different path means I actually give myself permission to engage, to ask the questions.

35:33to not perform, to not feel like I have to have the answer. That's gonna be the biggest difference for you. It's great, right? So we've covered a lot of ground. So I'd love to hear from you. You don't have to summarize everything, but I would just love to hear as you're walking away from this conversation, what are two or three key takeaways that you have? I think number one, one of the big takeaways is...

36:00getting more information and testing the hypothesis of there is something in what I can bring to the table and a value that I can add to the organization at large, but I don't have enough information. So I need to go and really understand, is there a pain point that this serves or not? So that's number one. I think just reframing the conversations with my boss is really helpful. So thinking about bite-sized chunks.

36:29You know framing sort of starting over framing those conversations bringing questions and then having sort of action steps after the fact I think that's what kind of led us to I do not have the traction in Engagement with them. So I think kind of all of that led to You know, this this sort of block that I have with them, which is really the bridge, right? It's unlocking that the way to be authentic transparent understand their needs wants and hopes for the organization and how I can insert myself, which is what I'm really good at once I can get to that level but I have not gotten the traction and the reason for that is really something that I own. You know, I think you've given me some tactics to actually unlock that or start to unlock it in a way that I can have ownership over. And I think let myself off the hook in the immediate for what is the next role look like and just kind of understand more and then try to own crafting something that feels

37:26good. It doesn't feel just adding work, but feels meaningful and exciting. Where Grace ended up by the close of our coaching session was certainly not what she expected coming in. That's the way it happens many times. People want an off-the-shelf, simple solution for what is a complex, multi-layered, nuanced situation. And my job is to make sure they don't just check the box, but really do the work so they can break through the issue and take action that will actually last.

37:56Grace came in wanting her crisp, concise elevator pitch and she left recognizing that she was putting the cart before the proverbial horse. That what she needs to do first beyond just outperforming in her current role is engage more effectively with her senior team. What I think is great is that she walked away with a plan that anyone can use when trying to lay the groundwork to position yourself for what's next. Start by engaging through listening and asking questions to figure out where leadership wants to take the company, and then define and articulate to yourself what's the value that you bring over and beyond job performance. And finally, validate whether there's an intersection between what your organization needs and what you can bring. This is how you can start laying the groundwork to position yourself for what's next. That's it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. Next time,

38:55We're currently in this very uncomfortable position where my team is having issues with the founder, who is a very, very wealthy white man. Thanks to my producer, Mary Do, assistant producer Liz Sanchez, music composer Brian Campbell, and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who joined me in these coaching conversations, and to you, our listeners who share in their journeys.

39:22If you're dealing with a leadership challenge, I'd love to hear from you and possibly have you on the show. Apply at coachingrealleaders.com. And of course, if you love the show and learn from it, pay it forward. Share it with your friends, subscribe, leave a review. From HBR Presents, this is Muriel Wilkins.