Women at Work - May We Recommend…The Anxious Achiever

0:00Hi, everyone. It's Amy Gallo, co-host of Women at Work. Like many people, I struggle with anxiety, especially at work. I worry I'm not getting enough done. I overthink feedback I have to give. And I'll admit that sometimes I lose sleep when I have too much on my plate. That's why I was thrilled when HBR decided to add a new podcast to its HBR Presents Network. It's called The Anxious Achiever.

0:24The host, Maura Arons Mealy, is on a mission to reframe the way we think about and deal with mental health at work. She talks with leaders who have struggled with anxiety and succeeded despite or because of it. Her conversations are candid and at times quite emotional. Maura also talks with experts, medical and otherwise, who offer lots of practical advice on navigating anxiety at work.

0:49In one episode, she speaks with Alice Boyes, a former clinical psychologist who you may remember from season two of this show. Alice talked with us about the dangers of perfectionism, especially for women, and shared tips from her book, The Anxiety Toolkit. In this preview from an upcoming episode of The Anxious Achiever, Moira asks Alice for advice about something that makes her truly anxious at work, getting feedback.

1:21Let's talk about feedback in the context of the workplace, right? Because obviously being able to handle feedback is a huge piece of career growth. And yet, I think that many of us anxious types, you know, we just avoid feedback or potentially difficult conversations for many reasons. Shame being found out, having feelings we're uncomfortable with, et cetera. I mean, I know for me, I miss out on...

1:49probably growing and learning and even having more real relationships by avoiding feedback. But I still avoid it. Is there sort of a baby step way that we can get more comfortable with feedback? Yeah. So one of the big things is to is to identify what helps you take on board feedback, what helps you be more willing to accept it. And a lot of that can be who you're getting it from. So making sure that you have somebody who generally trusts in your talent, who generally trusts in your capacity, in your psychological flexibility that you can get a point of feedback and adapt to that. When you've got those people that you trust, it can be a lot easier.

2:35Also just kind of realizing the format that you like to get feedback in can be really helpful as well. So it's a lot easier not to be defensive sometimes if you're getting feedback in a form that's written rather than being given it on the spot. But also it's just managing that psychology about where you don't go from I've got this one thing I'm not doing well to I'm never going to succeed. I'm doomed to fail. I'm terrible. I'm horrible. The catastrophizing. But sometimes feedback happens and it's not thought out. Sometimes you're in a meeting and you say something stupid or offensive in front of all your colleagues and you might get

3:25some in the moment or really post-haste feedback. I was in a meeting and with a client and they were presenting a new line of videos that they had created and had spent a lot of time and one person on the team had really spearheaded them. And I said in the meeting, well, I just don't think these are as creative or as good as our other videos. And the minute I said it, it was like you could hear a pin drop.

3:55It was like my internal monologue had spoken and it was a major faux pas and I definitely got feedback. So then I just really lost the rest of the day. I mean, I felt so ashamed. I was so angry at myself. I do that a lot. And then I think, oh, should I send a follow up email? Do I need to apologize to that person?

4:18You know, it's it's all a little squishy because your own negative self-talk gets so involved even if you may have legitimately screwed up. Yeah, was it was it wrong? Like I mean, did was it a was it a useful? Was it an on-point piece of feedback? It wasn't useful. It wasn't useful at all. I was cranky. Okay. I was cranky and my ego was offended because they didn't take my advice. Okay. So then I think it is just figuring out the whenever you have anything that happens and that sort of triggers rumination. I think you've got to ask yourself if there is a lesson to be learned here. Like what is the practical takeaway from this? And sometimes there isn't. So I'll just quickly give a couple of scenarios. So where it's different. So we got burgled. We've actually been burgled twice.

5:14The first time it happened, I went through all of those sort of what-a-should-a-could-a things that I should have done to make our house lease of a target for a burglary. And in that scenario, there were things that should have been done. Another scenario was where I accidentally got a parking ticket. And I didn't notice a sign that said that you couldn't park on a particular road during like street cleaning hours. That happened to me yesterday. I almost got towed.

5:41Yeah, so yeah, this happened on a vacation and that scenario, that was the only time in the last five years that I've gotten a parking ticket. So there was no logical lesson to be learned from that. I don't need to be paying more attention to signs because I'm already paying pretty good attention to signs. So I think sometimes it's just distinguishing that and recognizing that there isn't.

6:06always. But just coming up with like a really simple plan. So in the burglary example, I might have thought of 10 or 15 different things that I could have done to make a house less appealing to burglars, right? But if I think that big, then I'm just going to get overwhelmed and not do all of those things. So kind of really streamlining it down to What are the real top priorities here? And maybe it's just one, like what is the number one thing I need to change that is actually doable to change in that situation? I mean, if you were to think about that for your scenario, because it does kind of sound like you're saying it falls into the category of things of there is a lesson to be learned here. What's the number one doable thing that would help you stop making that mistake again?

6:55Well, it's funny. It was actually the culmination of a big lesson for me, which is that I have to choose when I talk. It's almost like avoiding impulse. This is a really crazy analogy, but I think listeners might appreciate it. So you know when you buy something on impulse and you regret it versus when you've researched something, you've saved up and you're like, this is gold. I have to buy this. This is a great purchase. I've tried to approach my my presence in meetings, because my job requires a lot of meetings, like that. No impulse purchases. Only things that I know I really want. So it would be don't blurt out things that you're thinking, especially if you're in a certain kind of mood. Save up for when you feel that you have something that's really additive to the conversation. And actually listen.

7:49get out of your own head about how anxious you feel because maybe you feel like someone doesn't like you or you're going to get fired or there's some dynamic in the room that's making you feel anxious. Stop. Actually, listen to the conversation and only talk when you have something important to say. Now, I am not there yet, but I'm working on it. Yeah. And I think that even translating that principle into behavioral terms as much as you as you can. So it might be something like that you practice giving sandwich feedback. I mean, sandwich feedback like something good, something bad, something good or vice versa? Yes, the poo sandwich. So that if you... Yes, well done. We are a clean podcast. Yeah. So if that's how you standardly speak, then that's going to help prevent...

8:47the the blue thing because you're going to need to think about the ingredients of that sandwich. I like that. I like that a lot. That was a preview of the Anxious Achiever with host, Maura Arons-Mealy and her guest, Alice Boyce. To hear more, subscribe to the Anxious Achiever on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.