Women at Work - Navigating Conflict

0:00You're listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. I'm Nicole Torres. I'm Amy Bernstein. And I'm Amy Gallo. We're in an auditorium on the campus of Harvard Business School. And this is our mic check for the live episode we'll be recording here in just a few hours. By that time, our guest Linda Hill will be on stage here with us to talk about navigating conflict at work.

0:32She's a professor here at Harvard Business School and an expert on leadership and innovation. So the next thing you'll hear is all of us and our audience who are hopefully giving us a round of applause as we start the show. Hello, everyone. Thank you for joining us. It is pretty amazing to see this many people in a room who want to hear us talk about, of all topics, conflict at work.

1:02I usually, I go to lengths to avoid discussing conflict with my coworkers. But maybe that is why some of you are here too. Because we know that conflict, especially at work, can be very awkward to talk about. It can be a real pain to deal with. And we know that it can be particularly challenging for women to deal with too, for reasons that you'll hear about in a minute. Fortunately, I have three women on stage with me who are going to help us all get better at this.

1:32My co-hosts, otherwise known as the Amy's, Amy B, who I turn to advice for just about anything, Amy G, who literally wrote the book on managing conflict at work. And we are so excited to have Linda Hill here to share her expertise on conflict and how it connects to leadership and creativity. Okay. So I've already admitted to everyone that I don't like discussing conflict at work. And I would love to hear how each of you three deals with it. Let's just go down the line. Tell us, do you tend to avoid conflict? Do you seek it out?

2:02What's your approach? I absolutely hate it. I don't seek it out, but I would say I don't avoid it in the workplace. More like I deal with it when it comes up, where I hope I do. If you asked my partner, he would say I seek it.

2:23which may be why I wrote a book about conflict. And I would say I'm mostly a seeker in most situations. There are sometimes I think I avoid just because I'm really worried about the relationship, but mostly I seek. When I was first asked the question, I was asked, was I a conflict avoider or a conflict seeker? And I was looking for some middle of the road and I was not allowed to have it.

2:49I see that my two partners in crime did go down the middle, but I will say that I am a conflict seeker. Great. So you have a good mix of perspectives on stage. So can we talk about what exactly it is that we are avoiding or we're seeking out?

3:03You know, in my mind, conflict seems like it is often just in the eye of the beholder. Amy G, maybe you can tell us how you define conflict at work. Yeah, it is most definitely in the eye of the beholder. ABB and I could be in a discussion where I think we're having an all out fight and she thinks we're just having a normal conversation. So it's definitely in the book. I do try to keep it very simple and describe it as a situation where two or more people have needs, interests, goals that are interfering with each other. Now, with that broad definition, you might be thinking, well, I have conflict all day every day at work. And the truth is you do. We all have these conflicts. And sometimes they don't feel like a big deal. They just feel like the normal course of work. And sometimes they feel like a much bigger deal. And we can talk about that. Great.

3:55Linda why is it so important for leaders and especially women to learn how to deal with conflict at work? Well I used to teach the power and influence course at in the MBA program which I very very much enjoyed and because I was teaching that I found myself having to think a lot about political conflict and so what I do know from research and other people's research is that all organizations are inherently political.

4:21There are three primary sources of conflict and organizations, diversity, interdependence, and competition for scarce resources. And what I also know, if you don't know how to navigate through that, those political conflicts, you will be powerless. And if you are powerless, no one wants to work with you. So for me, dealing with conflict is about being able to work through the...

4:43politics and the conflict that's inherent to organizational life, to make sure that all of the stakeholders that you need to bring together are aligned to get done what needs to get done, and to make sure that you have the resources you need to deliver on what you've promised your organization. So if you can't deal with conflict, if you can't navigate that, you'll be powerless. And if you're powerless, the last thing I will say, we do know that people who are powerless are more likely to be corrupted.

5:09because you cannot give voice to your values. And I think for women, it is quite important that we all are able to give voice to our values so that we can build a world and build organizations that we think are operating the way we think they should operate. So for me, it's about making sure you can give voice to your values, you can contribute to the organization. And finally, as you know, I do research on innovation, and you rarely get innovation without diversity and conflict. So if you can't, in fact, deal with conflict, learn how to amplify differences, be comfortable with that, and then leverage those differences to come up with...

5:38come up with new and useful solutions for your organization you won't be able to be an innovator. So let's move to some best practices or you know general principles for how to handle conflicts. Amy G, if you think you might have a conflict with someone else at work what is the first thing you do? So it might be stressful depending on your you know, conception of conflict, how you feel, whether you're an avoider or a seeker and accept right away that that stress is normal. If we see conflict as a threat to our identity, to our needs or our resources, it's very likely we will go into a stress response. And we know from research, we do not make good decisions when we are underdress. So the key is to try to calm yourself down. And I have a few ways I advise doing that. Very first thing is to think about the other person.

6:29yourself in their shoes. And this helps to break the sort of narcissistic rumination most of us go into in one more under stress and think about what do you know about the other person? What stress might they be under? What pressure might they be under? What is it they want in this situation? And this is not out of generosity, although...

6:49I certainly advocate for that as well, but this is more to help you gather information and unhook yourself from your interpretation of the situation which is going to be one-sided. The other thing I think you really need to do is think about what is your goal? And I'll admit that most of my adult life and probably for my childhood too, anytime I entered a conflict, my goal was to be right.

7:13And that is not a good goal. Because if Linda and I show up to a conversation both trying to prove that we're right, where do we have to go? So really think about what is it that I really need from this conversation? Do I need to get this project just done and on budget? Do I need to preserve my relationship with this person I'm talking to? Do I need to just get out of this conversation and move on with my life? What is it you're actually trying to achieve? Because that's going to really dictate how you decide to handle it.

7:42Sounds better than crying. But crying is okay. Crying is okay because that is a response to stress and allow yourself to vent. Allow yourself to cry, get angry. Just don't do it with that other person right away.

7:58Do it with someone you trust. Find your work, BFF, you know, cry in the bathroom if you need to, you know, write out everything you wish you could say to that person, not in an email because you could accidentally press send. But like in a Word document that you then delete and just get that all out so that you show up much more calm and confident when you get to the conversation. Okay.

8:20So once you've cried, once you've vented a little bit, and you've decided that you want to have this conflict conversation with the other person, Linda, can you tell us how you start that conversation? Well, I usually do try to inquire. And I think what's important is to separate out.

8:37A person's intent from their impact. So I try to say this is how I'm perceiving or this is what I'm thinking I might even say I'm not sure I actually I will if I'm really feeling like I want to handle this properly I will say and I have to confess I'm human sometimes you actually want to irritate the person a little but anyway You know this is the reality because of how you're feeling about it But you do need to calm yourself. You need to be aware of your goals But what I try to say is I presume that you are well intended and we are all trying to do, for instance, in my organization, what's best for Harvard Business School. I presume that. But this is how I'm experiencing what you're saying, or this is the impact of that decision or what you did on how I am feeling about what you've done. So I try to own that this is the impact on me.

9:23And that could be quite separate from your intent. So could you help me understand what you're trying to accomplish? Because I think we're both trying to, not what you're trying to accomplish, but how you perceive what we need to be doing about this decision so that we can both do what's best for Harvard Business School, or whatever it is that we have in common. So I will presume that they're trying to do what we have in common. And we always want to do that. But we may have different points of view about how to get there.

9:49So I try to own, it's my perception of what you're doing and separate their impact from their intent. Because I think most of us really are well intended and want to be trusted. So what makes us defensive is when we suggest that we're not well intended, we can't be trusted. But sometimes people will come back and they will tell you, you know, I have a whole different perception of what I'm trying to get done. So I am actually stating my goal.

10:13Right. Which may not be there. So they may come back and say to you, I have a different goal. And then I say, okay, then, you know, it's intent and impact that we're having a conflict about. Right. But you also stated the shared goal, right? We both care about doing what's best for our company. And I think that's a great place. Cause if you think of a conflict as two adversaries, you know, at going at it, you're not, there's not much place to go. But if you both have a shared goal you're trying to achieve, then you're at least on the same side of the table. But sometimes people tell you they don't share your goal.

10:43for sure. And those are more complicated, but I actually try to put it out there so they can tell me that the goal is different. This is the intent part is when you win the goal. We have different goals. That's a different kind of conversation than just how we achieve that goal. And those are sometimes harder conflicts to actually resolve.

11:00When you're in the process of having this conversation with someone you're you know trying to establish shared goals You're talking about intense and behaviors How do you make sure that that conversation is productive and doesn't turn into people yelling at each other or getting defensive? I think the number one lesson in any of this is that you cannot control another person I don't know if you've all learned that lesson in life yet Despite my attempts and So I think on the one hand, what you can control is your reaction. And what we do know is that people tend to react to your reaction. So if you get worked up and upset and your voice starts getting constricted, you start yelling, it's more likely the other person is going to respond in kind. So really managing your own emotions is one of the most important things you can do in these conversations. And that's where mindfulness techniques come in really helpful. You're not going to go,

11:57I have to breathe deeply because this is so stressful. But you might take some quiet breaths, count them to yourself. Whatever mindfulness exercise you use to stay out of the story that you're telling yourself and stay present.

12:12in the conversation and I think never tell someone to calm down. I don't think anyone in the history of the world has ever calmed down because someone said you need to calm down or chill out. That is when you're allowed to yell.

12:32So moving into like resolving conflict, how do you, you're having this conversation. You're trying to figure out how to reach some shared goal. How do you make a plan for resolving whatever issue there is?

12:47One of the things you want to do is take a tip from negotiation experts, which is you're listening for interests. You're listening for what is it the person cares about? What do you know what your interests are? And at some point, hopefully when you feel like you've both shared your perspective, the assumptions you've made, you've heard what their pressures they might be under, what they're trying to achieve, you can then propose solutions that meet both your interests and theirs.

13:13Obviously, that's not always going to be possible, but that's the goal, is trying to come to a resolution and be collaborative. Don't, you know, come in, I need A, and they say, I need B, and you just A, B, A, B, right? No, you want to build on their idea. So if you propose a solution, they build on it, you continue to build on it, and keep in mind.

13:33what your goal is, because you still want to achieve that, but try to integrate both perspectives so that you're reaching a resolution that everyone can walk away feel good about. So how does this conversation take place? Do you say, OK, stop. Let's make a plan.

13:49Well, it depends. I mean, you can say, okay, I feel like we both hurt each other. Should we talk about what we're going to do going forward? Right? So sort of try to change the tenor of, now we're focusing on how do we actually solve this. Sometimes you can even go in and say, we've got this issue to solve. Let's first up front talk about what are the criteria that we're going to use to decide when we've gotten to a resolution. You can even have that early on, but you're going to have to have a trusting relationship with that person to...

14:18to engage in that upfront. But I think you do want to be explicit. Like, OK, we've identified what the problem is. We know what we're disagreeing about. Let's talk about how we're going to solve it. So we've talked a lot about how to deal with conflict for yourself. But when you're a boss and there's conflict on your team, you have a certain role to play there, too. And Linda, I'm wondering what are the signs as a manager that you're avoiding conflict with your team that you should probably be addressing?

14:47Well, one is if the team members aren't actually doing what they agreed to do publicly. So if we all sort of supposedly agreed to do X, Y, Z, and it's not happening, you have to ask yourself why it's not happening. Or if people have been very silent, so you had a meeting and you all discussed some issue, there were some people who spoke up, but other people were silent. You can't assume that that silence is consent, particularly when you find out afterwards they're not actually doing what it was. They're kind of procrastinating about it.

15:14or maybe whining to other people, or also if you see there's a fair amount of gossip happening around your team. Gossip is often a signal of a problem, right? And again, people are gonna gossip to some extent, but they don't have any place else to take all of that. The other thing is if, frankly, people escalate things back to you a lot.

15:32So if you have delegated and you know things come back to you as opposed to them deciding then it sort of tells you something's going on here That's not right because I actually thought they'd make the decision So I think I would pay attention to that sort of thing and you do you know you also can get and some of you may have had this I remember at once when I was running in or a team if you will People tattletailed I mean, I don't know what other word, that's how I felt about it, but they would come and tell you about, you know, so and so did X, Y, Z, or they would somehow slip in. So I, you know, when that happens, I tend to stop people and say, you know what?

16:10you try to tell me something? What is happening? So just to stop that behavior because I think it's a way again because they don't want to tell you necessarily, particularly if the person they have a conflict with or a person is someone that they think you prefer or you shouldn't try, you should not have favorites or someone who is favored in some way in people's eyes. So I try to pay attention to the, those kinds of comments being made and then if things just aren't getting done because they're spending too much energy on other stuff, frankly. Yeah, that's helpful. So we're going to start taking questions in just a minute. If you have any burning questions or conflicts that you want to share with us, please line up at the mics. There are two here. So until people start lining up, I'm going to ask Amy B. You manage people. How do you see your role in helping team your team deal with conflicts? You know, I think surfacing.

17:05The sources of conflict some of it is personality and I can't deal with personnel. Yeah, I can't I don't presume to fix people but you know again I really try to keep focused and keep my team focused on what we're trying to accomplish here What's a win for us and for our organization? so if I get wind of It's usually people not speaking directly to one another. I try to surface it as a conversation. I hear you two are not talking to one another. It's a conversation about, you know, just use something from publishing. Where are we on this article? And then make sure that everyone who needs to be in the room is in the room.

17:55really focus that conversation on the article, the thing, and not the people. So the moment it gets personal, redirect. Okay. I think we have a couple of people at the mics. Let's start with you. Hi. Hi. I'm wondering, can you go round table about the phrase, I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree. We talked about this. There are times we should agree to disagree.

18:26So that, I think Amy, Amy G is right. What is your goal? Maybe it's okay that you agree to disagree. Sometimes I'm too persistent and wanting, no, no, no, let's work it through. And that's why I actually decided I was a conflict seeker as we were talking back there, because I don't like the, let's agree to disagree. But I've come to learn that that can be just fine. On the other hand, if agreeing to disagree won't let us get the work done, then you have to sort of say, you know, but this is one where we can't agree to disagree because we need to have more alignment on this one.

18:56because we have to collaborate and move forward. So how are we going to manage this? We might do some horse trading, as they say. It's not that we're going to get win-win, but I don't think we can agree to disagree. I think when that phrase is meant to say, I don't want to hear your opinion anymore, which is sometimes what it is, then I agree with Linda. You have to sort of keep digging into the content and make sure you...

19:21But you have to remember, you also don't have to see the world the same way. And I think sometimes we think, if I don't see this project the exact same way my colleague is, how do we going to solve this? And you don't. You have to agree on the material issue, the decision that has to be made, how you're going to move things forward. And if that requires you disagree about a few things along the way, that's fine, as long as you can do what you need to do. Yeah.

19:47I agree. I think we're going to have to agree to agree. I think we'll agree to agree. The question I always ask is, what's a win here? I mean, a win is rarely that you share my views. A win is usually that we're going to move forward on something together in a way that we agree on. We may not agree on every particular, but what does it matter? It doesn't matter. Yeah.

20:13I've had to learn to agree to disagree sometimes, especially in moments where my goal has been to convince the other person that I'm right. And learning to agree to disagree has been a real saver there. Okay, go ahead.

20:27Hi, I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about diffusing and resolving conflict when people are working remotely and it might be happening over instant message or over a video conference and it's harder to read things like body language and cues and so many of the pieces that we know emotional intelligence is made up of but might be missing on a remote team and in our interaction. Great question. There's some interesting research about that global teams or dispersed teams actually sometimes give each other the benefit of the doubt because they miss a lot of those cues they don't see you rolling your eyes on the conference call right they don't but because you don't have a shared context you often misunderstand

21:11And the situation is just ripe for misunderstanding and miscommunication. So I think to prevent conflict, you have to do a lot of over communicating. And I don't care how many emojis and exclamation points you include in your Slack message or in your email. It does not convey the same amount of nuance that a voice or a face does. So if you can escalate the medium in which you're interacting when things get tense or when you're discussing something that's difficult, that's going to go so much better for anyone. So pick up the phone. I know people don't like to do that anymore, but pick up the phone, have the video conference, anything that causes you and the other person to have empathy for one another. It's just going to make the conversation go better.

22:00And actually related to that, there's research that shows if you talk about your norms for what topics are legitimate to deal with in certain kinds of media. So we know that conflict escalates more when you have email versus video conference versus whatever. So I used to work with some global companies who wrote a little booklet out, and they had a conversation about our norms, about what conversations in the end are we going to have to pick up the phone. And that is something to set up upfront, to have those conversations and never assume silence is consent.

22:29that is really dangerous to do in a virtual team. It really pays to go around and make literally everyone say something. Thank you. I'll take your question next. Hi. Hi. We wanted to get your thoughts on sometimes getting the advice that you should make other people feel like it's their ideas instead of yours as a conflict resolution or collaboration technique, especially for women given there's some research that part of what might hold them back in career growth is their ideas not being attributed to them.

22:59Great question. Thank you. And I've seen this advice around insecure managers especially that you that Helping to soothe their ego you often give feed them ideas that they then think they're their own and it's actually a way to get your voice heard I do think there are huge risks if this is your primary tactic in managing conflict, but especially as a woman that you are not getting credit for your ideas, I think as a one-off situation to deal with someone who's particularly difficult, particularly insecure, it can be effective, but I certainly wouldn't use it as a pattern. Thank you. Hi. Hi. Hi. How do you manage managers that like to avoid conflict amongst their own teams as well and rather separate people than bring them together to have a conversation?

23:50So this may be where there's a little bit of a greed to disagree but you basically say to the boss if we could get some decisions made about these issues at least we could begin to move but you need to know that all of us are feeling this and we don't know whether to go this way and that way and we're gonna miss our court Whatever matters to that manager. We're not gonna. We're gonna miss the quarter because there's indecisiveness Are we really or do you want us to make the decision because if we make it? This is what I'm thinking I'm gonna do but you you made it real We're going to miss the quarter. This is the consequence of this conflict and that I think would be a pretty potent spur. Thank you. So we are going to try to squeeze in two more quick questions. I'll be quick. Jackie Fala, I work in an industry that actually relishes conflict and I appreciate your comments on having a shared goal.

24:44I've actually dealt with quite a few people that don't seem to share the goal, and I found that particularly challenging. There seems to be a lot of power dynamics around that, which I found myself ill-prepared to manage. I'm wondering if you have any thoughts when you know clearly the person is not about the organization, and they're really about themselves, how you navigate that particular case.

25:14And does it involve money or just their own career or is it about? I think it more specifically involves ego rather than money but sometimes those things go hand in hand. So I think that that point I get pretty straightforward with people like that. This is what you care about and this is what I care about. Now is there a place where we can meet your career ambitions and my ambitions for this organization and why I'm here? Where's the overlap?

25:43And if you find that you're in a situation where there isn't enough overlap, I think it's hard to win those circumstances. I think it's hard to win. But if I really have concluded it's about their career versus what's best for the enterprise. And I point out to them the potential conflict. So how would you like for us to resolve that? OK, this is what you want. This is what we need. Is there a compromise that still lets us move forward? Or is it a compromise where, frankly, you win and the organization loses?

26:10I think that that kind of conversation is worth having in those circumstances because you're really going to go in different directions and you're going to be the loser. I don't think you can win those. Thank you. Thank you. Hi. So we've talked a lot tonight about one-off conflicts, but also pervasive conflicts. So I'm thinking more about the pervasive state for this question.

26:33How do you distinguish conflict you can sit in and grow from over time versus conflict that's just too unhealthy to continuously sustain? And are there any thresholds or indicators that stand out to you categorically between those two? Thank you.

26:49personal take is that this is going to be, you're going to have your own personal threshold about what you're willing to sit with. So if you're a seeker, you might be more comfortable sitting with conflict for a longer period of time. And I think you really need to watch your own reaction to the ongoing conflict. Are you losing sleep over it? Are you talking about it constantly outside work? Is it affecting your ability to do your job?

27:19the key is, is this interrupting the normal course, or is this sort of something that's uncomfortable, but is not having physical, mental toll on you? And that's something I really, really watch out for. And one of the things, certainly, we all ruminate about things that happen at work sometimes.

27:40if rumination is a cue, then we're probably all having unhealthy conflict all the time. But I don't think that's the case. But one of the tests I also do is that when I tell myself, okay, you've thought about this enough, stop thinking about it for a day and then see how you feel. And can I do that? Like, am I able to get some distance from it? I think that for me is a litmus test. So what if you can't get the distance? Well, yeah. So then if you can't get the distance, you want to address it at more directly, you want to actually engage in it. But if that person is not constructive, you're not able to engage, you're not able to reach conclusions, you're stuck in this unhealthy dynamic, you need to figure out something different. And that might be decreasing the amount you work with them, that might be transferring to another department, really trying to get distance from them.

28:36so that you're not continuing this unhealthy dynamic. I think we could all agree it's just not worth it to be in an unhealthy, toxic dynamic with someone. And not all conflicts are going to get resolved. Absolutely. And there are toxic environments. And so I think that even goes back to the last...

28:53Question a bit in my mind if the person is truly only out for number one you better watch out for number one because they will step on you I mean, I just think that that's real so you you have to look out for your interest But I also think this goes back to being not being powerless You are not powerless and if you're in situations where you're powerless you can be taken advantage of So how do you over time gain some power so that you cannot be taken advantage of and the most important source of power is expertise knowing something that no one else knows having unique knowledge whatever it might be and knowing that you have options and It may be that you can't get out of that situation right away because you have obligations or whatever it might be or you're really committed to something you started but

29:34try to figure out how am I preparing myself to get out of this situation by creating more options, which is often about having some unique expertise or set of background or experiences so you can walk away and do something else. Because we can't fix everything, that is for sure. Thank you. We're going to end on an empowering note.

29:55Thank you all so much for being here tonight and for asking such good questions. Thank you Amy B, Amy G, and Linda for teaching us so much. I also want to thank our producer, Amanda Cursey, who deserves the biggest shout out for making this show what it is. If you see her, please give her some snaps. I also want to say that the Women at Work editorial and production team is Amanda, plus Maureen Hoek, Adam Buchholz, Rob Eckhart, Mary Dew, and Corey Brosnahan.

30:28Thank you, Sophie Wyman and the rest of the HBR Events team for organizing this event. And thank you, Harvard Business School Executive Education for sponsoring it.