Women at Work - Perfect Is the Enemy

0:07We do a lot of takes and our producer edits them together so that we sound like ourselves, but pithier and more polished. Even if we never get a line quite right or even if we stumble through a question to a guest, we're usually pretty happy with how the show turns out overall by the time you hear it. If we tried to be perfect podcast hosts, we'd just get in our own way. We'd ruminate over small mistakes and we'd never take risks in conversation. We'd probably end up sounding fake. And who would want to listen to that? No one. You're listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. I'm Amy Bernstein.

1:11I'm Nicole Torres and I'm Sierra Green Carmichael. This episode, we're talking about why we should not be striving for perfection in our work and how to let go of unrealistically high standards for ourselves. We'll also talk about how to mentor someone who's a perfectionist. Alice Boyce says perfectionism isn't a virtue but instead a kind of self-sabotage. She's a former clinical psychologist turned writer. Her books are the Healthy Mind Toolkit and the Anxiety Toolkit. Alice, thank you for joining us.

1:44Thank you. I'm excited. Do you see a difference in the way perfectionism grips men and women? Yeah, so women are more likely to have anxiety and imposter syndrome.

1:58perfectionism because there are more men in leadership roles. You get men who have narcissism driven perfectionism and who hold other people to their standards and had that sort of belief that they're special and entitled and extraordinary and everyone else around them has to deliver performance that lives up to that person's view of themselves. Wow. So you mentioned standards. What is the difference between perfectionism and just having high standards?

2:28Yeah, so there's a lot of overlap obviously. The problem is... when perfectionism actually interferes with having high standards. So some perfectionists will avoid a behavior completely if they can't live up to their own standards. So if someone can't clean their house as thoroughly as they'd like to clean their house because they don't have the time to do that, they'll avoid cleaning their house altogether. So that happens quite a bit. The other thing is that perfectionists are often extremely distressed about negative feedback. They ruminate a lot about negative feedback. And so they avoid getting feedback and that obviously slows down their progress and their improvement in development. So often when I am talking with people about perfectionism there is a resistance to seeing it as a problem but you've just highlighted a couple of ways in which it can be problematic. What are some other examples of problematic types of perfectionism? Yeah so someone with high standards can see the big picture whereas someone who's a perfectionist

3:29gets very stuck on the details. For example, they might have a really hard time focusing on the important rather than just the urgent. So someone that's a perfectionist doesn't like to ever let anyone down or doesn't like to leave something undone. So that can lead to doing a lot of unimportant things. Perfectionists tend to ruminate a lot over mistakes and spend far too much time and effort trying to avoid any mistakes rather than seeing the big picture and categorizing mistakes as either mistakes that are important or mistakes that are relatively unimportant. So they'll avoid making decisions. They'll avoid taking action. And a lot of that is because ruminating over mistakes is so psychologically painful that they know that making mistakes is going to trigger that rumination.

4:20And that's what causes the person to be so motivated to avoid mistakes. So where does all of this come from? Why do we obsess over mistakes? Or why am I so afraid of disappointing people, letting people down? Oftentimes, for example, if someone's a smart little kid, they will really get reinforced for that. So they'll learn that high achievement, get some social acceptance. What happens as well is that people who have an imposter syndrome tend to continually raise their standards. So they'll achieve a lot and then their anxiety will temporarily decrease and then that relief won't last. So they jumped to the conclusion, the erroneous conclusion that it was because their standards weren't high enough and they'll raise their standards again. Perfectionism is a real mixed bag. So perfectionism

5:14does pay off a decent percentage of the time, but then it's harmful in other cases. So it creates that sort of intermittent reinforcement slot machine effect where if a behavior works some of the time, it tends to really keep that behavior going. Again, people with imposter syndrome tend to feel like high achievement is the only thing helping them escape.

5:39disaster so they feel like their apostate status will be revealed if they make any mistakes or they feel like really going the extra mile with everything is the only thing that's preventing disaster and of course like society really reinforces perfectionism in contrast to New Zealand for example where I'm from America is So there's so much more opportunity in America, but it's also there are a lot more other people going after those opportunities and there's such an aggressive Frenetic work culture here that all of that really reinforces perfectionism in anyone that's remotely prone to it Alice this is Sarah I want to just throw a flag on the field for a second and pause because I feel like on the one hand

6:26The message we're sort of starting to convey is these standards are unreasonable. No one should have to live up to them. Let's just let ourselves and each other off the hook. But on the other hand, there is a lot of research that shows that women do have to be more qualified to get the same opportunities. Women do have to prove their competence over and over. And there is some interesting experimental evidence that shows that when women do make mistakes, they are remembered for longer and judged more harshly.

6:53In a sense, I feel like women do have to be perfect to succeed in the world that we're in. Yeah. And it is a balancing act. I think the important thing there is to not internalize that. So there is a real argument that imposter syndrome is a reaction to real sexism, acknowledging and seeing that that exists rather than thinking that it's something that's wrong with you personally, and then deciding objectively how far to go.

7:21and what sacrifices you're prepared to make personally in terms of giving up other parts of your life. And there might be, for example, seasons of life, times in your life where you're prepared to overwork, for example. But then you step back at other times. But to talk about the role of anxiety in all of this, which is kind of impossible to control. Well, having written a book about anxiety, I would say that the problem with anxiety is the more you try and control it, the more it will sort of bite your back. So trying to control anxiety is sort of the exact wrong approach and that's what causes it to spiral. But anxiety and perfectionism are extremely linked. So lots of the psychological models of perfectionism come from researchers who work on anxiety disorders or eating disorders or those types of problems. Anxiety is associated with that fight-flight-freeze response.

8:17and you can see the freeze and flight manifestation and people who avoid things that make them anxious. So that's one type of perfectionist, the avoidant perfectionist. And then you see the fight manifestation of fight flight freeze is where somebody will be super hard driving and overcompensate and just be relentless and maybe impose their standards on other people and those kinds of things. So you see those two different manifestations that are both anxiety based and both indicate that the person's kind of flooded with anxiety. So maybe we can talk about both of those types of perfectionism because I would say that I am

8:54kind of an avoidant perfectionist. You know, a lot of the behaviors you just talked about, I since reading your book have found myself or I'm realizing I do. So if you find yourself, you know, avoiding starting something because you think that I won't be able to do a perfect job or procrastinating on something because the thought of doing an imperfect job really overwhelms me. Like what do you do to stop thinking that way? It's much easier to use behavior to influence thoughts than it is to use thoughts to influence behavior so really the key to that is figuring out what you can do to change your behavior in the smallest ways that feel manageable to you and then your thinking will kind of catch up with your behavior so practicing doing things in a less perfectionistic way so I really like

9:48keeping in mind the 80-20 rule. So when I think of something that I might like to do, I think, well, is there a version of this that would take 20% of the work and would give me 80% of what I want? And taking that approach over and over helps you get used to the idea experientially that getting 80% of what you want is often enough. So it's really behaving in ways that are different that help your brain realize that not always doing 100% of what you would Ideally like isn't gonna be a disaster Alice one thing I struggle with is when I have a lot to do the thought that often jumps to mind is I just need to work harder or just need to spend more time and You have talked about how that can become a kind of trap. I have a really hard time figuring out what else to do in those situations Because there is simply so much to do and because working harder does often yields

10:47good results for me. So what should I be doing instead? So one of the big problems with that I just need to work harder thinking is that people need to take breaks to be able to step back and see the big picture. And when people are really overworking and hard driving, they really lose sight of the big picture very quickly. And so what will happen is the person will be keeping up with all their urgent tasks. They'll be keeping up with all the emails that come in that need a response that day. But they'll be leaving hugely important things undone and especially important things that if they're left, they might eventually cause a huge amount of stress later. So you really learn from taking more breaks that you end up working on those really important things more and you find it easier to let go.

11:42of the things that are less important or do the things that are less important to just a bare minimum standard. Again, you need to lead with behavior and expect that your thoughts and feelings will catch up with your behavior. So it's really finding any small ways that feel manageable to be able to do that. Can you tick off some of those strategies? What are the ones you rely on most? One of them that I use, which is if I have something big that I've been putting off for a really long time and I might have been putting it off for years usually like months or weeks that really needs to get done like something like choosing health insurance and that's when I devote a whole day to just one thing and that once I have done that thing I can

12:32do whatever I want for the rest of the day and that's something that I find really useful. The other one I use a lot is making project specific to-do lists. So rather than having a daily to-do list, I have all these different projects that I have going on and I have little things that I need to do toward that project and often tackling all of a task will just feel way too intimidating but sometimes there'll be something like I need to make a phone call. Making the phone call feels too intimidating. But I know that the first thing I need to do is actually find the phone number for the phone call. So it might be just finding the phone number is what gets me started with it. One of the themes that you keep coming back to is this idea of thinking errors that perfectionists make. For example, either or thinking. Walk us through that. What does that look like? How do we overcome it? Yeah. So that's usually manifest as either everything will be fine

13:29or it will be a major disaster so recognizing that when you do something non-perfectionistically or when you give up a little bit of control often the person doesn't do it exactly how you would want it to do or small things they do small things that you're unhappy with but that's different from it being a complete disaster so usually people who are anxious or people who are perfectionistic think that there's no middle ground and the reality is that usually usually there is a middle ground and usually the problems are small and either tolerable or flexible. Alice I want to double down on this idea of giving up control for a minute because I do think this is something I see a lot of women struggling with. I have struggled with it and I've seen men struggle with it too. This idea that I can't give this task to someone else because they won't do it as good of a job as I would.

14:23So therefore I have to keep doing whatever this is and I actually can't let anyone else do it. How can we overcome those feelings and just get to a place where it's like, you know what? Maybe that person isn't going to do it the way you would do it, but you won't have to do it and that's a win. Yeah. So thinking about what you could be doing with that time instead, like getting really specific about.

14:45what you would be able to achieve or how you would be able to enjoy that time that you would save so that you're actually comparing something specific against something else specific. The other thing is recognizing that sometimes when you let other people do a task you can really benefit from that so you can see that they might not do it the same way as you but they might do it in a different way that's actually really interesting or that you learn something from or that by handing it off to somebody else you actually managed to streamline the task a lot more down to something that's more manageable. So one of the other strategies I actually use for avoidance is imagining that I was gonna outsource the task and writing down the steps of what would be involved if I was gonna be handing it over to someone else. And when I do that, I often strip it down to something that would be manageable for somebody else because I have less lofty expectations for other people than for myself. So yeah, seeing that other people might actually do something different

15:45than you but better in some scenarios. One of the other behaviors that I picked up on in reading your book, The Anxiety Toolkit, a sign of perfectionism is if you have a tendency to minimize compliments. So if someone says to you, oh, you did a fantastic job editing that article and you say, oh, really, it was nothing. Or, hey, really nice presentation you gave today. Oh, really, I could have done so much better. If that is your tendency, you might be a perfectionist.

16:15Why do those behaviors go together? How does minimizing sort of reveal inner perfectionism? Yeah, so people who are prone to anxiety are hyper vigilant to negative messages and can just kind of gloss over positive messages. And there's an extent to which when someone has anxiety, when you give them some positive feedback, it can activate their rumination about past examples of negative feedback or a past mistake and that can make it really difficult for the person to accept what they are hearing. I really find that you get this huge sort of memory and attention bias. So sometimes I will read an email and I'll come away thinking that the tone of it was negative. I'll look back on it after 24 hours and realize that I had just completely overreacted to

17:10Something ambiguous in the email that actually wasn't negative It just maybe something that sounded a bit like a backhanded compliment and that I've ignored like the 90% of the email that was positive So how does someone manage someone like you Alice? I mean what if what if I'm giving you feedback? I'm your manager and You aren't taking in the positive feedback. How do I deal with that as a manager?

17:37So one of the things in terms of relationships is to understand the concept of attachment style. So everyone has an attachment style and about 55 or 60% of people have a secure attachment style and everyone else has either an avoidant attachment style or a preoccupied attachment style. And so people who have got a preoccupied attachment style They think a lot about relationships and relationships are really important to them. So and that's actually the category that that I have So I really like building sort of close relationships with mentors and people that I trust to give me feedback and once I feel accepted by that person They can really give me any feedback that they want and I'll be open to it I might feel a little bit defensive briefly but

18:30that will quickly subside. People tend to have that defensive reaction but if you can give them a little bit of breathing space to process the feedback on their own, they can often overcome that defensiveness. So some people might prefer getting feedback in an email form or something like that where they can actually digest it and have a little bit of time to see it more clearly so they can see the positives and negatives and balance. Someone with an anxious attachment style it's more important for them to have messages like you're a really valuable member of the team. These problems that I can see in this piece of work will get through this together, whereas people with more avoidant styles need their autonomy and independence emphasized. But what would you tell someone who is maybe afraid of getting negative feedback? Maybe they have a more preoccupied attachment style, but how would they talk to their

19:28manager about that. How would they let their manager know what their attachment style is? I don't know. Oh my God. Talk about your awkward conversations. Yeah. Yeah. So how do you have that conversation? How do you let your manager know that you want feedback and that you might be scared of it? You might need it a certain way.

19:45One of the things is, you know, admitting that you get a bit defensive when you get feedback, but then within 24 hours you've, that defensiveness has had time to subside and that you really value that feedback. Again, like letting your behavior guide your, guide your thinking. So expressing appreciation for feedback often makes me feel more open to feedback. So I will really go out of my way when I get feedback to go back to the person and say how incredibly helpful it was. There's also a kind of distortion effect that happens when you're giving feedback to someone you're mentoring who might have perfectionist tendencies where you're trying to encourage them to go easier on themselves. But what they hear is, do a crumbier job or your efforts aren't valued. And it's really hard to kind of get the message across that.

20:38really they could lower their unreasonably high standards and still be fine. So is there some language that you use with people or would recommend that would help make that more clear? Yeah, I think modeling the idea that, you know, nothing is cost free. So if you're overworking on something, you're not doing something else. So really modeling prioritizing to that.

21:02that person and of course you can also maybe empathize with the especially if it's someone sort of like in the early stages of their career and intern or something like that you can maybe give them some like give them some materials to read on perfectionism. What about working with a perfectionist collaborating with a perfectionist? Perfectionist can be a real pain in the neck to work with. What do you say about that?

21:26So one thing when you're working with a perfectionist is to not internalize their expectations. So it's kind of like just seeing them for what they are. So seeing that the person maybe themselves can't see the big picture. So when someone is nitpicking about small things like realizing that that's a problem with them and you're just kind of ending up on the other end of it. Especially the type of like someone with an anxious attachment style, the type of overworking perfectionist that I am, I find it really really helpful when people set limits with me call me on the fact that I'm spending too much time on something and I think just you know in terms of limit setting sometimes you just have to create your own limits like you'll have to decide for yourself if somebody's gonna email me at all sorts of hours I'm not actually going to respond till Monday morning and I'm gonna kind of try and shape that behaviour or give them some some messages that I'm not jumping every time they say jump.

22:24It's interesting because I have heard many and executives say over the years something like, well, I have high standards, but I never ask my team to do anything that I wouldn't do myself. And what I'm hearing you say is that there may be cases where actually it is unreasonable to hold other people to your own standards. Yeah.

22:43What often happens is people don't value other people's time. The perfectionist who is willing to work extraordinary hours on something to get it just perfect because that is something that they would prefer to do rather than let something go in a state that's less than perfect. So the perfectionist doesn't realize that everyone else isn't necessarily like that. So they will be asking other people to spend time on things and the other person comes away feeling like their time really isn't respected and that can create a lot of problems in personal relationships and in work relationships. One thing we're hearing from a lot of our listeners is how draining perfectionism is. I mean it's exhausting to worry so much about being perfect and about not being perfect. Like how much energy are we losing to

23:37perfectionist behaviors and tendencies. What kind of energy would we get back if we learn to work through this? Yeah, so it obviously is exhausting and often something has to give. So somebody will be, someone's perfectionism in their career will end up having costs with them in terms of like the time they get to spend with their children or they'll just be losing sight of the big picture. So they might be sort of doing a great job on unimportant things but have these Big issues that are nagging in the background of their mind about things that they need to actually take care of so It's a real gradual process of improving and over time kind of reaping the rewards of that like and it really is just experimenting with different behaviors and different approaches if you can just find tiny ways that feel manageable to let things go or to do things at a lower level then you'll learn that

24:35No disasters or catastrophes happen as a result of that or if disasters and catastrophes happen the things that you can cope with you can either Emotionally cope with them or you can do stuff to fix them and that's the best way to overcome it But don't expect it to be like if something that you overcome completely You really have to just kind of chip away at it and think of it as almost like changing your personality So that's something that you just gradually change over over quite a long period of time Well, Alice, this has been really helpful. Thank you so much. Yes. Thank you. Thanks so much, Alice. Thank you guys very much. One of the things that really struck me about our conversation with Alice is that I think women really are in a double bind on some of this stuff. We're not imagining it. We're not crazy. We are held to a higher standard. We are rewarded in many ways for achieving a flawless performance at work.

25:29And I think our feelings occasionally of, oh, I have to keep proving myself or I'm only as good as my last assignment. Those are rational feelings to a world where we are often held to a higher standard. And I think there's sort of two ways of looking at that. One is sort of outrage, you know, anger, despair, negative feelings, which I do feel from time to time. But the other way is just...

25:53realizing that, oh, if you feel insecure some of the time, you're not crazy. It's not your personal foible. Like, there's no way around the kind of bigger societal ocean that we're swimming in. And in some ways, these negative habits are things that are rational adaptations to an irrational world. For me, the real insight, you know, the kind of mindblower was that you cannot wait for your thoughts.

26:22to dictate your behavior. You sometimes have to let your behavior shape your thinking. Yeah. And I like that she gave really good practical steps that I think I will probably start taking. You know, like if you have something big that you've wanted to do for a really long time and you just haven't done it for so many reasons, just like dedicate an entire day to that one thing. One of the things I'm going to work on is not minimizing when people say, oh, that's a nice job.

26:49This is a piece of advice I got years ago. And I think it's taken me that long to really work on it because I think women are so socialized to deflect praise. And so it's weird. I've been working on just, if someone says something nice to sing, thank you. And kind of, and then it like is weird. It hangs in the air. And people are like, Oh my God. Cause it's not expected, but I've just been trying it. I find this topic fascinating because for years.

27:16Decades I was completely hobbled by my own Perfectionism the fear of being found out that sort of thing and I have to say that you know it took Recognizing that I was undermining myself for me to kind of get over it this flip that switch to shut that voice off Where you guys Sarah? Where are you in this? I think that I have come a long way. I also especially earlier in my career, really struggled to know when had I done a job that was good enough. So I got a couple really good pieces of advice. One of them was just being reminded that the perfect is the enemy of the done. If you spend a lot of time trying to perfect something, you will never finish it. And then the other piece of advice I got that was even more helpful.

28:06was to focus on the big picture, sort of focus on the quality of the overall thing as opposed to the quality of the individual parts. Well, you just pointed to a phrase that rings in my head all the time, although differently. I think about not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good and my great leap forward was not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good enough. Because I worry about that extra two hours that produces a quarter percent.

28:36of benefit. Nicole, where are you on all this? So I never, what I've called myself a perfectionist before, I never thought of myself as a perfectionist. I would like be most likely to call myself a procrastinator or kind of lazy because I'd have a big thing that I have to do and I just put it off to the last minute. I get very overwhelmed thinking that the outcome will be something not perfect. But reading Alice's book, I started to notice that I have a lot of these tendencies, these perfectionist behaviors that do undermine myself. And I think when you're more junior, maybe you guys will know if this is true, like you have a tendency to focus on those details because your job isn't really focusing on the big picture yet. And so I'm trying to figure out how to jump from focusing on details, execution, making sure everything is perfect. So my boss is like, stamp, 100, great job, to...

29:29being a little more strategic, being more productive with my time, like learning how to prioritize. So I'm focusing on the big picture, not on the smaller stuff. I think there is a point where the details become just almost second nature. And I think earlier in one's career, you do have to focus on the details because the details are your job. And then there is a kind of part where as you start to master that learning curve, you just take on more complex projects and kind of, you're doing the details even though you're not obsessing over them or thinking about them. Right. But I think also you have to recognize what details matter. Yes. All details are not created equal. So you have to figure out what matters in the big picture. I mean, I'm sure you think about that now, but even more. Well, when do you start realizing those things? Like when did you start realizing that some perfectionist things you were doing were undermining you?

30:28I hate to tell, I hate to say this, but I think I was in my 40s, so it would be way in your future, in both your futures, but please learn from my mistakes. I was frustrated. I was frustrated. I knew I had no one to blame but myself. I was frustrated because I felt that I could be further down my chosen path than I already was. I had to look inside and ask myself, why? To me, perfectionism is the other side of insecurity.

30:57totally and No one fixes that for you. You cannot wait for the external affirmation that you are good at what you do The world is telling you that every single day. You're not hearing it. I think it also for me was connected to sort of other Transitions of life There was a time when I was younger where especially like being a perfectionist was kind of a humble brag like I'm such a perfectionist You know you're sort of proud of it. Oh, it's like I was here until 3 a.m. Yeah, yeah, but then over time I started to realize that really for me it was about internalizing other people's expectations and sometimes even just their imaginary expectations, you know I I would assume that they wanted this amazing, you know 110% job when they would have been happy with 80% right and then tuning into my own expectations and then Gradually deciding things like you know what maybe I'm not the kind of person who's gonna wear heels

31:55Maybe I just don't care. I find them uncomfortable. I'm not gonna do it Maybe I'm not really gonna wear makeup even if I'm on stage at an event. Maybe I just don't care You know and as I got better at sort of caring less and less What other people thought of me and I still do care I mean I care enormously, but I care less and I feel like that helped me overcome the perfectionism too because it's like well if I'm in tune with my standards and I think I'm doing a good job Yeah, then that's good enough. And the other thing to remember is that no one's waiting around for you to fail. And people are very invested in your success. The people you work with are cheering for you. And if you recognize that, you'll ask for help more. You'll ask for informal mentoring more. I think that it's recognizing that no one is waiting for Nicole to screw up. And no one expects it to happen. And by the way, all of us fall.

32:51all of us skin our knees. Sometimes we do it very publicly. I certainly have. And you get up and you walk away. You know, that's the resilience piece. Yeah. Like I have not really messed up ever that bad. I'm kind of constantly worried about the worst thing to happen. But that's maybe that's because it's never really happened. So there's how much time you waste doing that and how much energy you put in to worrying about that. And then ask yourself, What if that happens? What's the worst that can happen? And what if it happens? That is actually, I'm glad you mentioned that Amy, because that's another piece of advice that especially early on really helped me was sort of intentionally being like, what is actually the worst that can happen? Yes. And then a couple of times that has happened. And it, I'm still here. So yeah, here we are. I feel like what's really challenging to me now is trying to help other people.

33:48overcome their own perfectionism because so often the message that you're trying to give is one where it's like okay to make mistakes or even, you know, hey, I really don't need 120%, you can give 95% and that's just fine. And I think the message that people end up hearing is usually don't work so hard, don't do such a good job, quality doesn't matter, you can turn in shoddy work. And that's Hard because that's kind of the distortion of the perfectionist mindset. Yeah, and as a mentor or manager, it's really I have found it challenging to try to convey to people I really value all that you're doing but You know, you're not gonna get to the next level until There is a little more risk-taking or a willingness to make mistakes or even just you know You learn to do this in two hours instead of six hours

34:46Okay, has either of you ever had a feedback, you know, just a review, an annual review, and I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that both of you always get very positive reviews. Do you ever walk out of your reviews thinking, I have no recollection of what just got said? I definitely have done a thing where I walk out focusing on the one bad thing that was buried after like 20 good things. Yes.

35:13And if you asked me what any of the 20 good things where I probably couldn't tell you, but I can tell you in detail about the one bad thing. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. In positive performance reviews, like I'm still working on accepting compliments. Like my first reaction is usually someone says something like very nice and I just go. With a little squeak. Yeah. I squeak. Yeah. Nicole, I thought you did a really good job in this interview. Thank you. You really.

35:42You really helped look at this. Thank you. Laryngitis. Yes. And so did you, sir. Thank you, Amy. That's our show. I'm Sarah Greencar Michael. I'm Nicole Torres. And I'm Amy Bernstein. Our producer is Amanda Cursey. Our audio product manager is Adam Buckholz. Maureen Hoek is our supervising editor. And we get production help from Rob Eckhart and Isis Madrid. Something that can help us thrive at work is to have trusting relationships with women from different backgrounds.

36:14So we're putting together an episode about shared sisterhood in the workplace that will come out later this season. To get a sense of what sort of kinship or lack of kinship you have with the women you work with, we've made a survey. There's a link to it in our show notes and on our website. Once we get enough responses, we'll tell you what we learned. And as part of this shared sisterhood project, we'll be exploring how women of all ethnicities can work together to reduce workplace racism and sexism. More on that soon. Thanks for listening.

36:48This episode we're talking about why we shouldn't this episode