Women at Work - Should I Change My Last Name?

0:00You're listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. I'm Amy Bernstein. I'm Amy Gallo. Something our former co-host Nicole Torres told us last year when we were talking about personal branding inspired this episode. Well, as soon as you said personal branding, I thought of something very different and that might just be like time in my life and what like my closest friends are talking about, which is like women change their names.

0:25And that affects your personal brand. And how do you handle that decision? I'm like having a lot of these conversations now with friends who are getting wed and some are changing their names. Some are not. And we always have very interesting discussions about why or why not and how that affects their professional lives. So that is also a big part of branding that women have to consider. Totally. I mean, if you're interested in getting married in the first place, current numbers about what percentage of women are making which decisions about their maiden names.

0:54are sort of hard to come by. But Pew Research Center just published new findings the day before we're recording this about trends in the US based on a survey they did earlier this year. Amy B, what did they find? Well, what they found really surprised me. I'm just looking at the report now, but what Pew found is that most women in opposite sex marriages, and by most, 79%, that's a lot, four fifths basically.

1:23So they took their spouse's last name when they got married. Huh. All right. Guess how many kept their own name, kept their last name? Well, is it the opposite of 79%? 21%? Nope. Nope. That would be logical, but inaccurate. Another 14% kept their last name and 5% hyphenated both their name and their spouse's name. So I started wondering about, you know, the Sarah Green Carmichael's of the world. So our former co-host, Sarah.

1:52green Carmichael kept her maiden name and then her husband's name without a hyphen and that is just 1% of the respondents. So you said it was 79% of women in opposite sex marriages who changed their name. What about women in same sex marriages? Well, the Pew Center says they didn't get enough of a sample size to find that out. So we don't know. Increase your sample size.

2:22Because I would like to know. One more finding that I love to share is that among women who have never been married, a mere 33% say they take their husbands last name. Really? Yeah. And then the other finding that I find so interesting is that the number of those who are not yet married saying they'll keep their own name, they keep their last name, 23%.

2:50remember it was 14% of people who are married. Yeah. Interesting. But a full quarter of respondents said that they're not even sure yet. Right. Yeah. Was there anything in that study about whether career aspirations affect or like anything about their career affects that decision? Well, this is me scanning the article, not seeing anything about career, hang on. Closest we get is that far more women with some college or less took their spouse's names, 83% than did women with a postgraduate degree. That was just 68%. Is there anything about what influences their decision? No, it's really a readout of the numbers. The numbers, yeah. Isn't that kind of analysis? Yep.

3:43It'd be interesting to know what factors for that 79% or even the 14% or those even who hyphenate what what influenced that decision? Yep, I would love to know more. I think we're gonna get into that though, aren't we? Yeah So Amy G when you and Damien got engaged did you consider giving up Gallo and taking his last name which I just learned I've known you for years. I just learned his last name. Yeah His last name is Vania and my name is Amy. It's a long a with a long a so it wasn't gonna sound pretty Amy Vania But I have to be honest that never even crossed like it was just not an issue like I was I have always been Amy Gallo It's almost one word the idea of changing that seemed so Foreign to me and you are not Amy V. I'm not Amy V. I'm Amy G. You are I'll be honest. I I had very strong feelings about

4:39taking a man's name that just didn't sit well with me. It just felt, I mean, I reasoned of course, like my current name is also a man's name, my father's name. And at one point I even considered my parents are divorced, my mom kept my dad's name so she and I have the same last name. And at one point I considered taking her maiden name as my last name.

5:04to sort of give it like the matrilineal line. But then I was like, well, that's just my grandfather's name, right? There's no way around that it's some man's name. And so I decided, you know, I've been Amy Gallo for a really long time. I can't imagine being anyone else. Right. And it is your name. Yeah. So you got engaged. How far or long were you in your career? I'd been working like 12 years at that point. So just over a decade. So how did that factor in? I mean, that's That's already a substantial amount of time in. Yeah. And it's, I'd like to say it was a big factor, but it, I don't think I realized then the consequences of changing my name. Like what the potential consequences and risks could be to my career, right? That I had invested 12 years of my life into building a reputation, making connections, establishing myself.

6:00as Amy Gallo. And like, I don't think I thought about the costs of switching, partly because it wasn't a real consideration to change. But for professional reasons, I'm really glad I didn't. I think about how much my current career is influenced by those first 12 years. And it's a lot. I have mentors. I have people who knew me in previous jobs. I have things I wrote under my name from that time to have all of a sudden a different name, just I wouldn't have been comfortable with that that cost. Yeah, it's disruptive to say the least. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. What about you, Amy V? Did you and Dan talk about changing your names when you got married? No, but same-sex couples didn't really do that back then. And anyway, it was never even a consideration for us. Why wasn't a consideration? Well...

6:55For one thing we were both deep into our careers. You know, we both had our professional identities I was 35 when we got together and then was 40 right, but You know same-sex couples didn't take each other's names. That was not yet part of the then brand new Tradition of getting married right right a brand new tradition. That's an oxymoron You know first marriage wasn't available to us. Yep, and then when it was Yeah, there's no way that I then in my 40s would have changed my name. Yeah That is late and I mean it's way too late in the game for me and for Ninette as well. We talked about getting matching motorcycles Nothing about our names Perfect perfect way to cement the bond Mm-hmm. I do know people who've not hyphenated or even kept like Sarah green Carmichael kept their

7:54I keep calling her original name. The maiden name. I don't even know what maiden name also sounds terrible. Well, I keep saying her own name as if that's a distinguishing factor anyway. The name they had at the time of marriage and then added. But I know people who actually created and I know a couple same-sex couples who created a new name based on their last name. One of my favorite was Pearlmine and Voles and they changed their last name to Pearls, P-E-R-L-Z. I was like...

8:22That is a cool name. That's a cool name, but that's like three times the disruption. But you know what? Good for them and how brave. Yeah. I also know another couple, opposite sex couple, where the husband really wanted to raise the kids with his faith and not his wife's faith. And she said, that's fine, but they're going to, in that case, they'll have my last name. And that was the trade they were willing to make. So it was a negotiation. Yeah. It's funny that both their kids are teenagers now.

8:52And I asked, I asked them recently how they, the adults, how they felt about the name for faith trade. And they're like, it's worked out really well. Amy G, you and I have been talking about ancient history, but sitting with us today is none other than Hannah Bates, our associate producer and friend who is about to get married, right? When are you getting married? Yes, June 15th, 2024. It's also our dog's birthday. She will be in the wedding.

9:20Nice. Yes. It's a must. Our dog was in our wedding. I would actually consider having a wedding if I could have my dogs in it. You just get remarried every time you get a new dog. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So Hannah, you know, Nicole brought up the whole question of personal brand when you're thinking about a name change. And I wonder how personal brand, your career, you know, just the kind of breadcrumb trail you've left.

9:49of Hannah Bates. How does that all factor into your decision? So many thoughts and feelings, but I think it's better if you hear all of those thoughts and feelings in the context of this conversation I had with three other women who've either gone through or are currently going through the same decision-making process. My name is Tania Pull, which used to be Tania Gupta. My name is Sayaka Hara, but it used to be Sayaka Kawano.

10:16And my name is Alex Shore, and it's staying Alex Shore. Well, Alex, you and I know each other because we work together. And you're leaving soon. And I was thinking last night, I was like, this is the first like full blown conversation I've ever had with Alex. And now I'm sad that I won't get to do that anymore. I know. But that's how we know each other. And then you brought Sayaka to us. Yes. So me and Sayaka, when we were 21 babies, we started working together at Well, she still works for the company at my old job, and we've been friends ever since. So like six, seven years. Oh, that's nice. Antonia, you're no stranger to women at work. Yes. This is your third time. This is my third podcast. We're excited to be here as always. Oh, love it. All right. Well, I've brought you all here today to talk about changing your last name or not. And that was something that

11:11I think like pretty immediately, like even before we got engaged, I knew I was gonna keep my last name just because I feel very attached to it. It's Bates, it's that one syllable. Like it just punctuates, I feel like, my name. And I just, I don't know, I really like it. And also, you know, my dad passed away and that's his last name. So it keeps me connected to him professionally. I did take my career into account when like making this decision. Also, like I'm a musician.

11:40So that is a consideration. You know, I do have like music goals that maybe someday like I will want, you know, I just want everything to be under Hannah Bates. But then also at this job, like my name is in all of the credits of the podcasts. And if I want to remain in podcasting, I feel like, I don't know, it's just more convenient to have my last name stay the same. There's no confusion there like who's Hannah Bates versus Hannah Mortimer. Like I don't need to worry about connecting the two of them.

12:08So that's kind of how I came to the decision. But for all of you, how did that decision come up for you? And what were you thinking about? Tanya, why don't you start? So for the longest time, I didn't even think about it. The decision came up the day we were sitting on our computers trying to register a marriage. And this was all during COVID. So everything was online. And then I saw the big question pop up, last name now, last name after marriage. I was like, oh my God, this is where I have to decide. Oh no.

12:38Work was a very, very big contributor to that decision because I had that feeling that, you know, everything I've done in my life, I have been known by that person. And if I become this new person, then who am I really going to be? And I was expecting people to see me differently. I was expecting, like, I walk out of, you know, a washer or like a car cleaning facility and I'm a new person. I was expecting that. So how did you expect people would treat you differently?

13:05So I think it was more to do with how my family is and how my husband's family is because I think a family is associated by their last names primarily. My family is a little more impulsive, a little more traditional definition of fun, just getting out of bed and planning this is what they want to do.

13:23and my husband's family, they plan more. So I was just like, am I going to lose myself? Am I going to just because I am part of a new family now? Will I not be part of my old family in those traits, in those characteristics? So I think that was who I was worried I would become. Not like I don't like it. It's just it wasn't me. So I think that was what really concerned me about making the change. So it was more about how like your families would look at you differently? A mix of that and also how I would look at myself, I think.

13:52So if I look at myself differently, if my family treat me a little bit differently, then why wouldn't my coworkers treat me differently? That's kind of where I think I went into that chain of thought and it's like they don't know who I am anymore. I think I was just overthinking to be honest at that point. I have read a bunch of research and preparation for this episode and people have thought and overthought this for their jobs. I feel like so. I feel like you definitely weren't overthinking it and like.

14:22For sure a valid consideration like will people treat me differently? Yeah, I don't know if I'm allowed to jump to the part now, but I really do think nothing changed I I still am the same person. I was I Still go by my first name majorly everywhere like work. Everybody knows me by Tanya Nobody really uses my last name before or now unless they're introducing me for the first time Well, I guess when you're meeting someone new they from that point on are only an ever will know you as Tanya up all. Yeah, I think that has sunk in but that was actually one of the reasons why I did change because I was talking to my husband about like you know I've spent what four years in the industry everybody knows me by this name and what happens and he just looked at me and of course you know like men don't think about this so much I think but he just logically said you've spent four years in the industry and you have another 30 to go and since then I've just had that perspective open up to me and sure it hurts sometimes that people don't know

15:20my old name, but they know me and I'm still the same me. Right. And like nobody looks at me differently. At least I think nobody looks at me differently. Sayaka, what about you? What went into your decision to change your last name? So similar to Tanya, I never even thought about it real deeply until we were at the point of signing papers. I'm also Japanese. It's really common in Japan to change your last name. And I like the idea of having like a family unit, but I think also the choice of changing my last name was maybe a bit of an illusion because until prepping for this podcast, I didn't know that Japan had strict laws about name changes. They require you to have one of the same last name. It could be yours or your partner's last name, but everyone has to have the same last name. Interesting. Yeah. And it's really interesting too, because I talked to my mom about this a little bit too.

16:18You also don't get marriage papers in Japan. The way that you like prove your marriage is by family registry. So you can just imagine a document. There's like your last name is at the top and it kind of lists your spouse, your kids. And that's kind of how you handle everything. So you can kind of trace your ancestry that way too. Interesting. And so I think my mom and my grandma had more of a emotional when I legally got married, because you have to do documentation to kind of remove yourself from your family document. Oh my gosh, wow. To start like a new family essentially with your partner. So that was really interesting. I feel like I was just signing papers like, you know, we've been dating for a long time. I think it was no surprise that I was getting married, but I think when my mom was getting choked up, I was like, oh no, like what did I do? That's wild that it's literally

17:11you're like legally removing yourself almost from your own family. Yeah. Did you know that before you? Yeah, kind of. Like here it's like social security is like your way to identify, but I feel like whenever you do anything you have to have your family registry to kind of prove your identity of sorts. And this is a little morbid, but when you like pass away and you, you know, have a gravestone, it's usually a family gravestone.

17:36that you get buried into. It's not your individual one. So it's very much tied to the idea of family and the idea of having the same last name. And I'm like, because of this podcast, I'm like, oh my God, I never thought so much into it. But I guess that being said, even though things did catch me by surprise, I think I don't regret changing it. Even though right now I feel like I'm in the weird in between.

18:03I haven't fully transitioned into my new name. I feel like even when I was signing in downstairs, I probably signed with my old name. So I feel like I have a dual identity still. Sayaka, remember how people in the office found out that you changed your last name? Yes. So I'm legally married. My wedding's next year though. As soon as my name changed legally, I reported it to HR so that, you know, for tax reasons, paystubs, all of that. But the HR team was like, you're...

18:31email that has first and last name you have to go through it if you want to change it like so i'm like you know what i'm just not even going to deal with changing my name like publicly or like internally within our company until maybe my wedding rolls around um and then one day over the summer i don't know what triggered it but like my zoom slack like everything that we use in our work yeah had my new last name on it except for my email I woke up to a lot of messages from people being like, what happened? Like, when did this happen? And all of that, I'm like, I have no idea. Like I'm like, I know. Hara is on, my new last name is on some stuff, but things like email is still my old last name just because we work with some people externally and I have like contract and things like that where I don't want things to get lost in the mix kind of. So.

19:24I feel, yeah, I feel like a spy sometimes because people can't find me. That's hilarious. And Alex, what about you? Yeah, so I guess I have always thought kind of like you Hannah that I wanted to keep my name because it's so short and to the point.

19:42Like, my full name is Alexandra Shore, but everyone calls me Alex. No one calls me Alexandra. And I just love the way Alex Shore sounds. It rolls off the tongue, Alex Shore. It does. And even in work settings, this is kind of funny and embarrassing, people will call me like, A-Show. And things like that. So it's like a nickname. I feel like I've almost acquired at school or work.

20:05And I have liked that. And so my fiance's last name is Jungschoffer, which is very long, and it's also German. And every time we go somewhere and he has to spell out his first name, Johannes, and his last name, Jungschoffer, it takes probably 10 minutes to go back and forth spelling out the full name. It's a lot of letters. It's a lot of letters. And then people will ask, oh, is that a German name? Oh, what does it mean? And then we have to explain. It means young hard worker.

20:34things like that. And so it is cool, but when I thought about changing my last name, if I was changing it to Alexandra Youngshofer, I feel like I would be taking on some of that identity and some of those questions that go with it. And it's not part of like my heritage. So I just thought I'm just going to keep it. Alex Shore, simple. I like it. It works in all situations. So I like Alex Shore. I'm a fan of you keeping it for what it's worth. Thank you.

21:02Tanya, I have a question for you specifically. On your LinkedIn, it says formerly Gupta. Does it still say that? You got it right. Oh my God. It does. Yeah. I think I use formally for about a year. And Lingna still says that because my professional connections from before know me as Gupta. So I feel like I'm going to keep that for a little bit.

21:22But it doesn't really hurt anybody. But even at my current place of work, I changed my email signatures. Everything said formally for about a year. And then by then I knew like nobody really called me with my last name anymore. So I was like, okay, I think this is time. Yeah, so you feel like a year was like a good enough. Yeah, but I also did not change my name immediately after getting married. So I took about a year and a half to start making the change.

21:44And then we like in Sayaka's case, we actually had the wedding a little bit after our legal registration in the US. So I feel like after the wedding, I got more comfortable in my skin. Even though when I got my new passport, I was like, who is this person? That was a month before the wedding and I was freaking out just looking at it. I was like, this is not me. And then something just changed in me after the wedding. It just felt like, oh, you know what? This is my family now. And I think that feeling that that became so beautiful that I just became more accepting.

22:14The immense amount of work that came with the logistics of it just became easier. Because I was like, end of the day, okay, we're a family. And that made the difference to me. It's really nice. So you feel like you really identify with Tanya Upple? Upple. Yeah, that's the hardest part. I think I do. But I think it's more about maybe it's bad thing. I don't know. But I think I just kind of focus on Tanya more so.

22:43And then the rest is, you know, I think it's coming to me now. I don't speak my old name so much anymore. It has happened still. Like Sayaka, you said, I think sometimes I just sign the old name and I don't realize it. Yeah. It's like reassuring to hear you say that because my wedding's coming up and I'm just manifesting it for myself. I feel like I'm in that weird in between stage. Right. But I feel like once we have the wedding and it's like official and it's, you know.

23:09It's a beautiful feeling. I'm so excited right now. You're like both and neither exactly. I'm just floating till the wedding. So before we all came into the studio today, we all read this article by Dory Clark called how to change your name and keep your professional identity. And she goes through some advice for doing so, like announcing the change. So you should send like an email blast to your colleagues, letting them know that your last name just changed.

23:39She also talks about taking an online inventory of where your maiden name shows up. So that could be like your social media accounts or your email accounts. And she recommends like updating all of those at the same time so you don't confuse people. So did any of you do anything that she recommended you do? So I actually made a spreadsheet. Oh, OK. I made a list of.

24:03categories and places where I needed to change my name. So it started with social security, banking, HR, previous HRs. I had a list, which is still open to date because there are some things that I still haven't changed, like airlines, rental cars, those kind of things. So I did do that. And when I was changing it at work, I gave my managers a heads up like, Hey, if you see this name, it's still me. So they knew it. And then when we had the next like team meeting, the office meeting, I just casually announced, Hey guys, if you see this name, it's me. And so on. And people, I think everybody knew by then that I was married. So it wasn't really like a shocker, like, like, but I did let everybody know. And then I had forwarding set up by it and, um,

24:49What else did I do? I think I just, I had a little signature, you know, in my signature, I had a little statement saying that this is my new email. Please make sure you update address book and stuff like that. I think the advice from the article about like really announcing it yourself that your name change is probably one that I'm going to take account into soon because I feel like it causes a lot of mess and confusion. Sayaka isn't really a common name, but people still message me being like, I can't find you. Like in our system, like where did you go?

25:17That's the one that I would definitely take away from that article. I remember when my mom changed her last name for the second time, like 10 years ago. She said that for a while. It was kind of nice that people couldn't find her. She's like, check out for a little bit. But then after a while, she was like, okay, this is concerning. So, but I'm curious, Alex, you're not changing your last name, but people might notice that you're not changing your last name. Like, is there anything?

25:44you're going to do like, are you gonna announce like, by the way, I'm staying out like short or anything like that? Honestly, when I was reading the article, I was happy because I'm like, wow, I don't really have to do any of this. But to the point of announcing it, I'm starting a new job and I'm taking time off from my wedding. And so I guess when I start my new job, I'll just tell them, hey, just so you know, I am getting married this month.

26:11at the end of the month and I'm not changing my last name I probably will announce it at least to the core people on my team that are new just so they know that nothing will change but there's no sense in doing like a wider announcement to people. Yeah I literally thought of you because I feel like starting a new job would be a clean way to start your new email like new everything so I envy you in that sense. But I do wonder if people And I don't know if this is actually, if this would like impact you in any real way, but if people are just going to assume that shore is your husband's last name. That's not your maiden name. That's interesting. I don't really know like what that means, but just... Yeah. I had a really interesting conversation with one of my fiance's friends who is married. And him and his wife have been married for like two years, I think at this point. And she still has not changed her last name, but she intends to. And part of the reason she is kind of

27:04putting it off is because she is in med school. She's going to be a doctor. And she's like, for the longest time of always imagined, when I become a doctor, I'm going to be doctor her last name and not doctor his last name. And she's like, I paid for med school. Like I did all the hard work. Like my name deserves to be attached to all of that. And if I changed my last name, it became doctor his last name. Then it's almost like I'm giving him some of the credit. And she's like, and he didn't do You didn't do anything, you know? And it got me thinking about even my last name. Like I am not a doctor and I did not go to med school, nor did I pay for med school. But I still feel like I have worked hard in my career and I don't want to give Danny any of that. Like that is not his, that is mine, you know? And maybe it depends on the industry you're in and what you do for work. But that definitely got me thinking about all of the things I attach to my name.

28:04And it was interesting to think about. If I can ask, why would you feel that you're giving him part of your life or your, you know, your credits, the credits that are to your name? Why do you feel so? Because it's, it's his name, I guess. And let's say if I changed my name to Hannah Mortimer, like Hannah Bates did the work to get here, not Hannah Mortimer. And maybe that's, maybe that is me like overthinking it a little bit. But yeah, I guess, I think that's why.

28:34Okay, that makes sense. I was curious because I know that a couple of my other friends who did not change the name thought that way and I guess I couldn't fully comprehend that. It's almost like I feel like it's too late. Like I'm just Hannah Bates in the world now. And Hannah Bates I will stay kind of thing. So I wrote a study that said almost 40% of all marriages end in divorce.

28:59Alex have you thought about like if you ever get divorced? Like oh well at least I get to keep my last name because I've thought of that. Yeah I mean it definitely makes it easier I guess and I think if we get divorced I'll just stay the same and you know move on. It's like a prenup with yourself. It is. Like if all else fails you keep your name, your identity. I think that's all I have.

29:29Thanks guys! After the break, Nicole joins me and Amy to finish this episode she started. So Nicole, we're here because you raised this question. So I think I need to put out there that I'm not married, nor has marriage been proposed to me, but I do think about...

30:02Just this idea of women changing their names pretty often, like we talked about in the last show, and I've been going to a lot of weddings. A lot of my friends are getting married. They're grappling with this question. Me personally, I have never thought I would change my name because it is really tied to my identity and my professional background. I'm at a certain point in my career where I think my name matters to me.

30:25I would change my name for a really cool last name. I changed my name to Nicole Chalamet, for example. But I think you can be quite strategic in that. That would also be maybe a professional brand decision about your name. I was looking at people who have really...

30:44big well-known professional brands celebs who have changed their names and Jennifer Lopez changed her name to Jennifer Affleck. Okay, but you just called her Jennifer Lopez. I know, I know. And she acknowledges that but she legally changed her name and isn't worried about, you know, she's at a certain point in her career. She's not worried about her brand suffering. But a more interesting one maybe was Amal Alamuddin became Amal Clooney. Yes. Yes. And she was a super successful Lawyer but then you know there was a brand component there that made her change her name. Yeah, she was probably being very strategic with that that decision And I think we can talk about it maybe someone slightly less famous like our former co-host Sarah green became Sarah green Carmichael I remember stumbling a lot at the beginning, but now I think of her as Sarah green car She's SGC. Yeah, the name has become her and she's become the name and it works. Yeah, I mean I think it's daunting

31:42on this side of it to think, oh, I'm going to change my name. I'm going to lose all this professional collateral or even goodwill that I've built up or identity. But I think a lot of people do it with quite good success. With the advice like Dory's, you can make it work. I still wouldn't do it. And you can make it work. Well, Nicole, I was going to say earlier to your point about personal brand and how You know, I'm all Clooney changed her last name because, I mean, look who she's married to. I'm sure that helped her in some way. But I think also a name has a vibe. Like my fiance's last name is Mortimer. Hannah Mortimer is a different vibe than Hannah Bates. 100%. And no shade to the last name Mortimer, but it's just not the same. And like even my mom, when she was changing her, her maiden name is Modig, when she got married to my dad.

32:38She said that when she changed her last name to Bates, she was like, Bates was just such like a power last name. Like I liked her name Susan. I liked Susan Bates. And she, at that point, she was like really getting her foot in the door into like corporate America. And she liked that vibe it gave her. And also what we heard, I think Alex Shor's story about her fiance's last name demonstrated this really well. Sometimes your last name carries this really cool story. Like her fiance's last name is Young Shoffer, means Young Hard Worker.

33:08I have to imagine that's part of his personal brand. So let's say her last name, her maiden name is Young Shoffer. If she changed her last name, she'd be giving that up. So it's a lot to consider. It comes down to vibe. I totally 100% agree. Yeah. But doesn't it also come down to what you want the world to know about you? I mean, I guess that's personal brand, but I love my last name, Bernstein. Yeah. It tells you a little bit about who I am.

33:34I love that the world hears that name and says, oh, she's probably Jewish. That's that's that's part of who I am. And it's not obvious to look at me. Yeah. So I, you know, I do think that for some of us, the name is more than just a vibe. There's a lot of meaning in it. Yeah, totally. So I'm like, I think about last names. I thought about last names in my life because I'm Filipino. And so I have like a Spanish last name, but I, you know, look like an Asian woman. And so it will distinguish my ethnicity when people ask what my last name is. I'll say Torres, and they'll be like, oh, usually they know. They'll be like, oh, Filipinos have Spanish last names because of colonial history and vibe-wise. I think it sounds cool. But Nicole Chalamet also sounds very cool. All right, I want to ask Nicole and Hannah a question. How much peer pressure do you feel?

34:34about this whole question of whether or not to change your name. Surprisingly not a ton. I mean, I think a lot of my friends, they're kind of grappling with the same question right now, but a lot of them I think are leaning towards keeping their last names. But I do have some family members who, you know, they just assume like, oh, you're gonna be like Mrs. Mortimer. And I'll be like, well, I'm actually keeping my last name. And they kind of like, they're a little shocked. They're like, well, what about your kids? And I was like, well, we don't know if we're gonna have kids. And they're like, Like they can't like it doesn't compute to them. Does anyone does anyone counter what about your kids with what about your career? No What about you Nicole? Yeah, I think it's almost exactly the same I think any there would be no peer pressure It would be like familial pressure and just like think about you know Yeah, think about your your family what it would mean having a different last name not really any questions of

35:30you know, how would the career that you've built up for yourself change? So that's sad and interesting Well, the reason I ask is I remember you know back in the Ice Age when my peers are first getting married Some of my my friends took their husband's names and some didn't and I remember one kind of oddly Savage conversation about a friend who did not take her husband's last name which was clearly viewed as a referendum on others' decisions to take their husband's last names. And, you know, that stuff happens because I think everyone's a little insecure about this decision one way or the other. But I had never even thought about this as a sort of a group decision before. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think it's very much influenced by your peers and by your family. You know, the other thing I think when you

36:30Change your name you are signaling I got married right which maybe not everyone you work with or who you know professionally knows so you're sharing that information and I think change your name also does imply that you will possibly be having children and What we know about like the maternal wall bias and how we think of women Who've had children or who are even potentially having children?

36:58And the bias they face of like, are they loyal? Will they care enough about the work? Will they be able to dedicate enough time? Will they be torn? I think changing your name might invite that bias in some way. I'd be curious if there's research about that. But I mean, do you worry about that at all, Nicole or Hannah? I mean, you're not thinking of changing your name, but did that factor in at all?

37:23Honestly, I didn't think about that and I know Tanya and I and and Sayaka and Alex all of us were saying like We didn't really think about any of this when we were making this decision. We're like we feel ignorant But to your point about the bias towards the likelihood of a woman becoming a mother I did read a little bit of research that suggested that there might actually be like a positive bias towards women who changed their last name particularly coming from like women managers, because they think, oh, if my employee who's a woman changes her last name, that must have been a hard decision. And so I want to promote her more. Wow. Yeah. Wow. That's a lot of thought being given to someone who's very personal decision. It felt like a stretch, but I was like, that is interesting that I think maybe depending on where you stand on the decision, it could go either way. Although I do think about, was it Tanya who

38:20made the spreadsheet to change her name, right? Like it does take, like I said, I really didn't consider changing my name except for like one moment when I was filing the marriage certificate. And I remember that the woman was like, here's the list of things you have to do if you're going to change your name. And it was like double sided single space. And I was like, well, if I had it was at all on the fence, that would have changed my mind because that is a lot of freaking work. I get the research logic, which is like, It takes organization. It takes pro being proactive. It takes managing all of these different people who have opinions about it. And it takes, you know, some presence to maintain your personal brand despite the name change rate. Like I think about Sarah Green Carmichael. I'm like, she handled that so well. I already thought of her as a productive, smart, capable person. But yeah, it gives her a little bit more of that to think about how she handled that. Yeah. Amy.

39:18You're a manager. Nicole, are you a manager? Do you manage them? Yes, she is a manager. Okay, well then I can direct this question to both of you. If any of your employees who are women change their last name or don't, do you have like a reaction or do you look at them differently for whatever decision? Okay, I just say all I think is please let me remember her name. I hope it's an outlook. Yeah. Right? Yeah, that's fair. I mean, I Don't give it a second thought. It just seems like a very personal decision. What about you, Nicole? Yeah, I don't think you could have a reaction or judge one of your employees' decisions in that way. I mean, you could silently, let's be fair. You both are good managers, so you won't. But I'm just saying, you could have a moment of like, ugh. Oh, and let's face it. People are judging you all the time.

40:14But how can you possibly know what motivates someone to change her name or not? There are very strong good reasons for a woman to want to be rid of her family name. And I think, again, to judge someone for changing their name without knowing their rationale, their circumstances, which as a manager, you're not going to know all of that.

40:42So, I mean, I agree. It's best not to judge. Yeah. But I also can't help thinking, so Amy Gee, when you said, you know, is this something you've ever worried about? What a name change might signal? I'd never worried about it until you said that. Glad to put that thought in your head. Yeah, no, I know. Like, I can just imagine the conversation I would have with my co-workers and my boss, I think I personally would feel like I would have to really go out and explain my decision why I changed my name. But why, Nicole? Why do you have to explain it? What's wrong with just saying I got married and now my name is Nicole Jones? What's wrong with that?

41:23I think there'd be a lot of questions about like, oh, I thought your generation, like your age, you all aren't changing your names anymore. Well, we have research that says otherwise, don't we? So true. So true. But the Pew study that you're talking about, like there are some things that you can identify women as more likely or not to change their name. And it's like really associated with your political leanings, where you live, I think, and your, what were some of the other ones? Education.

41:51Yeah, your education levels. And so I think there are associations with that that might be even subconscious in people's minds when they hear you're changing your name. But specifically to what you said, Amy G, like, it could be a signal that you're starting a family and there are all kinds of barriers that then get put up. So, yeah, I think it would worry me a little bit. And she thanks you for that. Yes, thank you. Glad to help keep you up at night. Yeah.

42:18But I do wonder on the career front, not to change the direction of the Convo, I feel like maybe it makes more of a difference changing your name when you're thinking about a career where people know your name versus where you might be applying to jobs or changing industries or something. I think there are situations where a new name, you might think of that as helping your brand.

42:43like a negative way to look at it is I was reading articles about women who change their names because like there's a lot of name discrimination out there and they find it easier to apply to certain jobs if they have white sounding names. Right. Yeah. And it's interesting. I learned from the conversation that Hannah had. Who was it who was like had just learned that in Japan there are like there's a law that you have to take. Sayaka. Yeah. Yeah. Both spouses have to have the same last name or a same name and they can go either direction. There are a lot of countries too where like there are laws on the books where you cannot change your name after marriage. So it's like it's a very cultural and geographic thing as well. Like in Italy, you can't women don't change their names and China women don't change their names. So it is very cultural. It's kind of interesting to think about how I don't know these conversations might be different depending on where you are. So

43:39I'd also love to know in Japan what percentage of people end up going with the woman's last name versus the man's. Because in my head, I'm like, I bet they're defaulting to the man's last name. But I don't know. I haven't looked into that. Right. Well, I don't think my husband, I don't think it ever occurred to him to change his name to my last name. And it's surprising to me actually that we haven't gone to a place where it's a question that gets asked more regularly. A friend who just got married recently, we talk a lot about work and careers and she's very career driven. And I asked if she was changing her name. She was like, no. And she had told her now husband that she was not changing her name. But she said in the conversation, she said, but you are welcome to take my name if you'd like. And I thought that was really great. He didn't. But maybe he thought about it for a little bit and we could have more conversations like that. I asked Danny, I was like, would you ever take my last name? But even when I ask it, like it's kind of a joke because I know he never would. But he was like, absolutely not.

44:38I was like, well, why not? You're like, cause it's my name. And I'm like, exactly. Did he want you to take his name? Um, he says he like doesn't really care, but I know he does a little bit. He's like, it'd be nice, but I get it. And like, I'm not heartbroken about it. So he may occasionally get called Mr. Gallo and he loves it. Me too. But it is, it's, he loves it in that it seems funny, right? Like if I got called by his last name, no one would see it as funny. Yeah. Yeah.

45:09Nicole, what are you getting out of this episode? What should we all be taking from this episode? Yeah, you set us up to have this conversation. Tell us. Oh god. I mean, I think I really changed my thinking. I had always thought that I would not change my name, but I would really wonder why my peers, my close friends would change their names. You know, I asked my sister-in-law, like, why did you change your name?

45:35And I've just learned a lot more about, like, there are so many reasons why people change their names, and they're all so valid. Yeah, I'm sort of taking away, you do you. Yeah. Just do it thoughtfully and carefully. Yeah, exactly, exactly. That's our show. I'm Amy Gallo. And I'm Amy Bernstein. And I'm Hannah Bates, popping back in to say that I learned the percentage of married couples in Japan who take the man's last name. It's 95%.

46:06according to Stanford's Asia-Pacific Research Center. So in case you were wondering, because I was. HBR has more podcasts to help you manage yourself, your team, and your organization. Find them at hbr.org slash podcasts, or search HBR in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. Women at Work's editorial and production team is Amanda Cursey, Maureen Hoek, Tina Tobi-Mac, Rob Eckhart, Erica Truxler, Ian Fox, and Hannah Bates. Robin Moore composed this scene music. Thanks for listening. Email us anytime at women at work at hbr.org. Bye. Bye.