Women at Work - Sisterhood Is Power

0:00both for opportunities of growing in that work environment as well as dealing with difficult situations in the work environment. I found that the sisterhood really enabled myself and others to thrive. When one of you emailed us about what she called an incredible sisterhood at work that I didn't even know was possible, we asked her to tell us about it. The power is really in both the professional and the personal outcomes of it. You know, they certainly start out as professional relationships, but And those three women, both the black director that I got hired by, that has now gone to be a black female vice president, but then also the white female vice president, and then my peer who is a Latino lesbian, the four of us, not that we all have individual strong relationships, but we're connected with one another. I think what we gain from that is this ability to show up to work and be proud, but then also support one another both

0:58explicitly and implicitly. So, you know, the vice president could go into meetings and hear my name and give me good feedback or give me things that I needed to work on. And she could do that behind closed doors, but in a safe environment. And then I could go vouch for my peer, knowing that she was capable of doing something that maybe I had to go because I was on vacation, her and I did the same job. So I could put her in a position to take over and do that assignment or that task very well.

1:25But then also that the personal side of it that we gain is we can have conversations, you know, with a glass of wine or at dinner and just talk about the struggles we face and with you can hear that someone else has experienced or felt similar things and makes you feel like you're not the only one. And I can tell you being a black female that's an engineer with 10 patents and all that other stuff, I have felt like the only one for a very long time.

1:58You're listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. I'm Nicole Torres. I'm Amy Bernstein. And I'm Sarah Green Carmichael. This episode, we're continuing our conversation on workplace sisterhood. We'll get into what to do and what not to do to develop trusting relationships with the women we work with, particularly women who are different from us. If you haven't listened to the episode where we started this conversation, the one with Ella Bell Smith and Stella Encommo, We suggest you do that because we'll be referring to it quite a lot. That episode's called Sisterhood is Scarce. We're taking our time with this subject because it's a sensitive one. There are a lot of reasons why women of different groups don't work together. But if we want to fight sexism in the workplace and collectively advance, women of all backgrounds need to come together. That survey we've been asking you to take, that's part of a larger shared sisterhood project. And the driving force behind that project is Tina Opie.

2:57a professor of management at Babson College. We have the resources, where if we wanted to make a change, if we had the will to make the change, yes, it's difficult, we could begin making actionable change now and have different organizations in six months. Pina told us about our interest in exploring workplace sisterhood after we interviewed her for our season one episode, Lead with Authenticity. She's here in the studio with us.

3:22Also joining the conversation by phone is Veronica Ribello, who's an assistant professor of management at San Francisco State University. Sisterhood doesn't mean we're the same. It doesn't mean that our struggles are the same. It doesn't even mean that we have to like each other. But it is about viewing our struggles as interconnected and this willingness to learn from each other's experiences and not throw each other under the bus. They both study how race gender, sexuality, and other aspects of who we are affect the way people treat us at work. These are tough conversations. You'll hear that in our voices. But if we don't challenge ourselves to talk through our discomfort, we might never learn what we need to or feel strong enough to fight for equity. Tina, thanks for coming in. Thanks for having me. Veronica, thank you for joining us too. Thank you. Happy to be here.

4:12So you heard Ella and Stella talking about their research on black and white women in the first wave of female managers and and rock I'm gonna direct this at you. What is new here? How are you seeing women? Dealing with each other across racial lines and and other differences Sure. Well first of all and unfortunately not a lot is new I first read this book while I was in graduate school and reread it recently and it could have been written today, honestly. Something that really resonated with me was that I think something like 90% of black women had conflicts with white women, but only 4% of the white women said they had conflicts with black women. And we know that their book was interviewing white and black women, but I think a lot of the interactions between the black and white employees in the book do cross over to

5:10how white women and women of color relate to one another more broadly in organizations. I've experienced this firsthand, for example, white women overestimating their closeness with me or other women of color, as well as underestimating negative interactions or even not noticing negative interactions, such as microaggressions or undermining. And maybe what has changed since the publication of Ella and Stella's book is all the resources we do have out there, whether Twitter, books, blogs, threads where white women can learn about women of color's workplace experiences without burdening women of color being their racial educator, so to speak. I agree that this book could have been written today. Our separate ways could have been published today because in the workplace, I still see groups of women that differ by race sharing information with each other within their groups.

6:10but not necessarily a strong sense of solidarity across race. And that has always perplexed me. We perhaps get so busy, put our heads down, and as women, that's what we often think gets us ahead. You work hard, you put your head down, you focus, you move ahead. We don't often look side by side and see that there are women who are going through very similar things.

6:34As we are, they're also going through different things. Do we understand those differences? How can we help each other? And let's not forget that the reason why we're looking at women coming together as a collective is because we make up roughly 50% of the population. And I don't know what the statistic is now, but we are definitely underpaid and underrepresented at top levels and organizations around the globe. What we're trying to do is help each other.

7:03gain inclusion and equity. And the best way, or I think a way you can approach that from a position of strength is to do that as a collective. But it's very difficult for me sometimes to see how we're going to be able to use gender as a way to bind us together when you have other issues.

7:34such as culture, ethnicity, LGBTQ, race, age, disability, that may be filters that prevent us from really seeing each other. Are you optimistic about where we're going, though? You know, I'm wondering if more people are being included and heard in organizations and are able to form relationships with other people. Veronica, do you want to take that? Sure.

8:02For one thing, I don't think that social progress is inevitable and something that naturally unfolds over time. I think it's something that's really... Contested. Exactly. It's something that's negotiated, claimed, demanded. So if things are getting better, I don't think it's inevitable. It's because of hard work and intentional efforts to foster solidarity among women of color or women and non-binary people more broadly.

8:32What does give me optimism or hope, I should say, I think are the increased opportunities for solidarity, especially social media. I know Twitter is huge in particular for black women and women of color for mobilizing, for sharing stories and strategies, especially for those of us who are isolated or tokenized in our organizations or communities. And I'm also optimistic because I have seen more white women listening to women of color.

9:02and that is critical, and advancement is contested. You have to fight for it. You know, we're talking about, we're talking about sisterhood. I fought with my sisters. I'm not a violent person. Well, they started it, but... But my point is that it's not always lovey-dovey holding hands. It's not going to be that way. And one of the things that I've seen is I've actually had...

9:28White friends and colleagues who through their tears are listening and Because we've established a relationship. I can say no I need you to actually be quiet I don't want to hear how you think my experience is like yours for once Can my experience stand on its own? Can you listen to what I'm saying? Can you process the discomfort? You can cry hear some tissues But your tears are not going to stop me from sharing my story because I you know there's a great article on the weaponization of white women's tears, which I think is something that I encourage white women to read. And that actually to me reminds me of Bellin and Como talking about how at that time black and white women were raised very differently and how black women often had to be more resilient. But we were prepared for the workforce because our parents talked to us.

10:23You know that they're probably going to think you don't belong there. You do belong there. You're brilliant. You're smart. You don't have to be twice as good. And that's a trope at this point. I know that people don't think that that is accurate. But I encourage you to look around at the black people who are in your organization. Look at the Asian people, the Asian women who are at your organization. Look at the Muslim women. Look at the LGBTQ women. Oftentimes, from my experience, those women are phenomenal. Now, I'm not trying to superheroize, that's not a word, women of color, but it just speaks to the fact that we often have to work harder to get where we are. And as a result, we are good at what we do and sometimes better than the white women who are shoulder to shoulder with us. And I know that's offensive, but I want you to really think about that. If you think about, I mean, why is it easy to understand that

11:22If a fish has to struggle to swim up stream that it may develop muscles that other fish who don't have to swim up that difficult stream don't have, we have had to navigate a landscape which requires that we hone emotional intelligence. We have to be sensitive to cultural signals and organizational cues or else we are the first to be fired. So when you see a woman of color who has made it to the top, You need to stop and pause and listen to her, especially when she tells you it's been a struggle. Well, Tina, one of the things you've been working on to try to resolve some of these tensions is this shared sisterhood project. So tell us a little bit about what that is. So shared sisterhood is a project that says, OK, how can black and white women? And that is initially where I started. And I recognize that that's problematic because we're excluding other women.

12:17But I am really interested in exploring that binary and the reason being is because historically, those were the two largest contingencies of women working in corporate America. Now that has changed. I'm broadening that circle so that we can look at women from all different backgrounds. So the idea is, what are the underlying reasons that facilitate and inhibit connection, trust?

12:48empathy, understanding, perspective taking between black and white women, Asian women, Muslim women, et cetera. We often want to press forward and make advance, but we don't acknowledge the issues or the challenges that have historically arisen. And at the risk of oversimplifying, if you think about your personal relationships, if someone has harmed you, and never says sorry, never acknowledges that harm, but wants to now say, how can we become better friends? You're like, first I need you to apologize for what you did before, and I need you to never do it again. It's very difficult, I think, for contemporary white women to feel as though there are still vestiges or remnants of historical offenses that may need to be accounted for. But there are, because I think that those belief systems

13:47Those biases those prejudices those ways of seeing each other they get passed down from generation to generation to generation At least that's what I experienced when I was growing up in terms of advice You don't trust people at work You you just you don't do that and I don't know if you all were raised in that way as well But I do feel like there needs to be a reckoning and then to try to move forward into how those historical issues may be affecting some of the challenges we see in contemporary times, but the goal is always for me, action and change, positive change, I'm hoping, so that we move towards diversity, numeric representation, inclusion, which is effect on the decision-making process, and then equity, which is where, you know, we talk about the gender pay gap, but sometimes white women, I think it's what, 70, 80 cents, but for women of color,

14:46It's less than that. But I don't hear white women standing up on a table saying, my women of color need to be paid more. Do you know who the biggest benefactors of affirmative action are? White women. It's white women. We talked about this before. I only know that because we did ask you before you told me that. Yeah. It's white women from federal grants and contracts. But yet I hear these cases, anti-affirmative action cases, and the face of them is black people often.

15:16or Asian people who are, you know, there's the case right now at Harvard where Asian people are viewed as the victims of affirmative action, but the face of it is black people. But I don't hear white women standing up and saying, actually, hello. This is a program that benefits women. We've benefited from this. I don't see that solidarity. So it feels like you're on the end of a branch by yourself. And that branch benefits white women They're willing to take the spoils, but not the risk Can I ask you a little bit more about step one? Mm-hmm cuz you had this metaphor of like you don't want to be friends with someone who's wronged you and let like until they apologize You have to sort of start there, but I'm imagining like very awkward well-intentioned white woman randomly apologizing to Like what is that actually sound to you? What I think it looks like to your your question Sarah is that

16:16We have white women and I do mean white women because for the most part the women of color I know are far more aware of white women's history and Experiences then white women are aware of women of color experiences So so they need to you need to educate yourselves watch some documentaries you may cry, but please cry in front of each other and just Wipe those tears before you come see Well, because that to me feels like a privilege because if black women cry in the work, if I cried as many times in the workplace as I've seen white women cry, I think I would be considered incompetent just because it's just not something that I'm allowed to do. Now, I have a cry in the bathroom stall by myself on a different floor. That's a good tip. But you educate yourself. And then with this base level of information, you're willing to listen to women of color.

17:12But by the way, if I don't want to talk to you at that moment, respect that as well, because maybe I've been talking to other people all day, and I'm drained and I'm tired, and by the way, I have a job to do. No, I feel like that is so important. Like reaching out and making women of color and other marginalized groups feel heard and included. It is about expressing an awareness of...

17:38some of the unique challenges they face, but not necessarily like inscribing their experience based on their identity, like being told like, oh, because you're an Asian American woman, like you're a wallflower and you're not like going to lead, like, let me just help you get there. Instead, it's like, how are you feeling about work and the situation and like letting them come to you and open up about that instead of imposing yourself on them. That's kind of what I'm hearing about what is important in reaching across.

18:05And also not using me as a way to get rid of your guilt to work through your guilt, because I can see that a mile away. This happens so often. I see it all the time, both in academia and more widely, where we place this burden or onus on black women to hear all our stories of racism, how we feel guilty about a microaggression. We commit it. Or am I racist? Or how did I do? We do that way too much.

18:32And we really need to I think be forming and creating community ties with each other. And by that I mean white people and non-black people of color. There's some really great online resources as well as in-person groups such as Showing Up for Racial Justice, that's a national organization targeting white people who are interested in dismantling racism.

18:54And there's even television shows like Insecure or Being Mary Jane that portray workplace experiences of black women as well as how black, white, and other women of color relate to each other in the workplace.

19:05So I'm a white woman and I have a definitely default to story swapping in all kinds of contexts, whether it's at home or around the dinner table or with other women or with my book club. And what I've heard a couple of times now is sort of like the swapping stories are like, oh, that happened to me or I remember when is really alienating. And instead of building empathy, it's actually like draining it away. So I'm sort of curious to hear like what would be the ideal response? What would be a better response?

19:35Yeah, I can offer some pointers. I think if someone shares a story of pain or suffering or a moment of vulnerability, it's really valuable to thank them for sharing because it takes a lot of courage to do that, especially if you are from a different identity group or background as a person sharing with you. So that means you're already doing something right that they felt like they could trust you or open up in that way. So I think it's important to validate that bravery and thank them for their courage sharing.

20:04I think most people when they do share stories of pain are seeking empathy and someone to listen to them and are rarely seeking advice. That said, a line I learned recently that has been so helpful is, do you want me to listen or would you like me to respond? That way the person who's sharing their story of pain with you is in control and can be really specific in terms of what they need from you if they need you to shut up and listen, or if they do actually want your opinion on their story. And this one's tougher for me, but trying to count to five or ten in my head before I speak is really helpful, too, to make sure not cutting off their story or not immediately jumping in with the first personal experience we have that relates to what they're sharing. So it sounds really simple, but I think it goes a really long way to just

21:02Listen, not necessarily jump in with advice. Think them, validate their courage, and maybe even ask them point blank if they would like advice. And then, especially if they're someone you work with or in community with, I think it can be helpful to keep that story in mind in the coming days and weeks and check up on them. Not necessarily referencing their specific story, but maybe going out of your way to see how they're doing, ask if you can help them in any way. Because if they're sharing a story about something ongoing in the workplace, They might not have a lot of support for it, or even if it was an event that happened in the past, it might be weighing on their mind. That's so helpful. Yeah. And I just want to say that I think because of intersectionality, all of us as women can relate to the urge to jump right in and try to solve someone's issue or to relate to them. So I'm a black Christian woman. And so I learn a lot from my LGBTQ.

21:59colleagues and friends. And sometimes I just, I have to be quiet because when people find out that I'm a Christian, they don't trust me. So I just want to draw that parallel. We're talking about, I don't trust white women. Well, LGBTQ women may not, people may not trust me. And so one of the things that I try to do is listen and educate myself. And we may not agree on everything, but how can I convey that I value your humanity. And I'm sharing this personal story because I want all of us to recognize that we have room for growth. None of us have made it and arrived at the point. None of us. All of us can be better at this. That's so powerful. So Veronica, after we've listened, what do we do then? Yeah. So after we've taken the time to hear someone's story with whole judgment or problem solving, we need to continue learning.

22:57It's not to assume that everyone who belongs to a certain identity or group will share the same experiences, but that they might be connected to similar struggles. So I think it's important that, especially if you don't belong to a certain group, to take the time to learn about their struggles, their challenges, as well as their resources and accomplishments as a group.

23:20Then we need to lobby. So those of us who do have more privilege, who have greater proximity to whiteness, whether as white women or non-black people of color, we need to be really mindful about creating and promoting opportunities for women of color in our organizations and communities. We are in a great position to be able to educate other people about racism, microaggressions, intersectional invisibility, other struggles that women of color face.

23:48Especially since some research finds that white people are more likely to listen to other white people about race-related messages than they are to people of color. So we need to change that long term. But in the meantime, white people can use that to their advantage, to try to use their privilege for good. And I know a lot of my white women colleagues are not comfortable with expressing emotion in the workplace, specifically anger.

24:15And there's research. Victoria Breskell has done some work on angry women, as have Ashley Shelby Rosette and Robert Livingston and others. And so I know that there can be backlash against women, especially white women, when they express anger. However, passion. If there's a way for white women to lobby passionately about this.

24:41and to be undeterred when they knock on the door the first time and someone says, you know, we have other priorities. Well, why? Ask follow-up questions. Why isn't this a priority? Other organizations have worked on this. Why can't we? Here's some suggestions on what we can do. Here's some women of color who I think can help us think through this. Here's some ways that this will benefit us and advantage us. And I really think This topic, it can be so uncomfortable that it's very easy for it to be dismissed. And we go to the next annual evaluation, the next strategic planning session, and it falls lower and lower and lower in priority. And I think it's important for us as women to really emphasize the need for equity for women and also for women of color and other demographics. I really want to emphasize

25:38for me, the importance of that passion or anger. Anger is a signal of something else that our espoused and inactive values are misaligned. We're not doing what we say we're supposed to stand for. That is harmful to organizations. And I love this organization. I want it to do better. So I'm going to keep pushing on this front. And I think it's just difficult for me to imagine that if Women are roughly half of the population in organizations that have 50% of the population was pushing on this. We wouldn't make more advance I just want to make the point that as women are climbing higher in organizations We don't have to ask for permission so much. We can just go out and do you can bring in candidates Who don't look like everyone else in the office who don't think like everyone else in the office. I think that

26:31People pay a lot of lip service mm-hmm to the value of diversity and when faced with it get frightened But you can call people out mm-hmm when they do when they start making excuses We have power and we should be using it I'm into that Veronica. Can you help help us understand where white women have some blind spots? Sure So Tina already mentioned some of them. I think one of the biggest one is this idea of Defensiveness and what Robin D'Angelo calls white fragility and essentially it comes down to resistance to being held accountable for racism. So if someone is Called out or held accountable for something they said or did that was problematic There's a tendency to react with frustration or to cry or to become very defensive

27:24And this kind of reaction overpowers the conversation. And then whoever brought up the behavior situation to begin with, that was potentially racist, sexist, or whatnot, their job is then to console the person crying and upset that they've been accused, so to speak. So something we all need to do is to develop and strengthen our skills needed to hold each other accountable, including the ability to have open and honest conversations about race and racism in the workplace.

27:54But what Tina said before, I think she's spot on that it's a lot easier to dismiss issues that are uncomfortable to discuss. So we need to strengthen our muscle to work through and sit with that discomfort. I think another blind spot that Bell and Encomo talked at length in their book is this idea of overestimating closeness with women of color. That white women feel like they were closer to women of color in relationships than the women of color actually felt.

28:23and that the white women were less likely to perceive moments of racism or microaggressions that black women did perceive or experience. So I think that can maybe be addressed through some of the learning and listening we talked about earlier, but making sure we are, I guess, accurately perceiving situations or engaging in dialogue so we're aware of how other people are affected. Veronica, can I chime in on this one real quick? Please.

28:51So the overestimating closeness, it's always interesting to me because I've experienced that from white women in particular. And I often wonder, is it because they are projecting themselves onto me so that they think I'm just like them because we're women? So they see me as black and they want to assume that we're similar.

29:12I don't know if it's that or is it because they're interacting with a stereotype of who they think I am. So black women are chill and I'm a larger black woman. So maybe I'm reminding them of the Mammy stereotype in some way shape or fashion, which is comforting so they can just say, hey girl, how you doing? By the way, I that's a pet peeve. Yeah, don't do that. I pretty much don't. Yeah. I don't want to be called girl, girlfriend.

29:37by people I don't know in general, but definitely not by white women. I mean, I hate it, especially if her accent changes and when she talks with white people, she speaks in a different way. So it's sort of this switch where it's again, so saying girl, girlfriend, those words in my community and Veronica, you tell me if there are other words that in Latinx communities may be used. But listen, that word has a specific meaning and a specific relevance. And I say, girl, oh my gosh, you don't know what happened. That is a specific conversation that I'm having in a particular context with people who I know. And so when someone who doesn't know me assumes that familiarity, it is super annoying, especially because it's assumed familiarity that is racialized. Because they don't talk like that to other white women.

30:31So they're thinking, oh, this is the way to get in. So it's like I'm being oversimplified as well as stereotyped. So Veronica, sorry we interrupted. No, that's great. Because I think what you just shared, Tina, is a great rubric that white women and non-black women of color can use in the workplace more generally when they are interacting with black women or other women of color asking themselves, do I behave the same way with other people in the workplace? Or am I modifying how I'm talking, how I'm carrying myself, how I'm presenting my body language?

31:00Because I don't want to speak for you, Tina, but I would imagine that, like me, you have sense differences. Or you've seen how white women act differently when they're around you versus other women or other people in the workplace. We pick up on these things. It's very noticeable. Yeah. And see, the challenge is that sometimes I want white women to treat me differently. Like, so for example, if I'm sharing a painful experience at work, I don't want you to try to necessarily relate to me as someone similar to you and then say, oh my gosh, I get it. This reminds me of a situation where, and I think, again, that's related to empathy because whenever someone is telling you a painful story, I'd like what you said, do you want me to listen or to respond? Then that's a great question to ask anyone. I think it's particularly helpful when you're talking across race. Tina, what has your experience been with Sisterhood? Have you felt it in your career?

31:59Well, so I actually I'm working on the shared sisterhood project with a colleague She's a white woman and she didn't know I was going to give her a shout out her name is Beth Livingston Beth and I met several years ago at the Academy of Management when she saw or heard about some research that I was doing I think it was on health and weight and we began to have conversations just about issues in society and I shared a little bit about my background and she shared about her background and how unique it was in terms of her experiences and exposure to racism and sexism as a white woman in this country. And what I realized is that we shared many of the same values and she was telling me things that were risky because if I revealed them to other people

32:56it could reflect negatively on her. And when she did that, it said that she trusted me. And so I then shared things with her that made me vulnerable. So the foundational trust led us to share increasingly vulnerable information or to take more risks. And then we were able to delve into areas where we truly wanted to bounce ideas off of each other.

33:24In particular, because sharing it with other people might have people judge us, but we didn't have to worry about that with each other because we'd established that foundation of trust. And now we work together in ways that I think would be very difficult to replicate with other people because we know each other personally and we respect each other professionally. That's great. Can we talk about the benefits of shared sisterhood? Where are we trying to go?

33:53Why? Why do we want to get there? So that's a great question, Nicole. And first, what I'd say is that when I conceptualize or when I try to develop shared sisterhood, I really thought of it as a means to realize social change. So if you remember the Women's March, so that to me is a visible manifestation of shared sisterhood. All those pink hats flooding the streets. And by the way, there were men.

34:22women and non-binary people in the in the March, so this is not just about this is about all of us recognizing that when we uplift and recognize women We're trying to create social change that leads to equal opportunity which can benefit all of us the second benefit is that it's an end into itself. Do you all have good girlfriends girlfriends that?

34:52You don't have to wear a mask. You don't have to pretend. You can be funky with them. And you know they love you enough so that you can go apologize. And it's not, you know, and you can, you'll still be good. You have other girlfriends you may not talk to for two or three years. But when you call each other on the phone, you can reconnect and they get you. You can be authentic.

35:15Psychologically, can you imagine what that would be like if organizations created relationships like that amongst women? And again, I'm not saying that your colleagues have to be your best friend. But if we could extract some of the things that may happen in the workplace where you trust each other, you may not be best friends. You may not talk to each other all the time. You may not go to the movies or go dancing together, or maybe you do.

35:40At a fundamental level, you trust each other. You know that this person has your back that they advocate for you, that they're willing to listen, that they're willing to learn, that they're lobbying for you. Think about psychological safety. Think about the culture at an organization like that. Think about the climate. Think about your productivity. I mean, I literally have to have times where it's just, I'm like, I need my girls. I love everybody else. I love men. Love my husband. Hey, honey.

36:07However, there are times where I just want to be around my girlfriends. So it's an end in and of itself. And then the third thing is, I think it's a model. So we're talking about, you know, womanhood, womanism, feminism, but there are so many other identities. But can women, since we're 50% of the population, what if we were able to get our stuff together?

36:36What would that represent to the rest of the world in terms of having a multicultural society? So how can we use ourselves as a way to say, this is possible. We're getting along as women. Now can we get along as based on religions backgrounds or sexual orientation or gender orientation or gender preference, socioeconomic status? You see what I'm saying? So it's a way to, it's a model.

37:05to hopefully reflect how we can advance as a society as well. Tina, that was beautiful. My heart is blowing. I'm so grateful to have such a strong community of sisters. You're about to have me crying on the phone. I'm serious. My mom has six sisters, so at a very literal level, grew up with a lot of strong women and saw the power of solidarity of not traversing through life struggles alone. And I think that's one of the biggest benefits of sisterhood that it is a tool or mechanism of solidarity. And like Tina said that we can connect to larger systemic structural struggles. Because I think one consequence of patriarchy and institutional racism and other forms of discrimination is isolation.

37:57individualizing struggles, feeling like whatever barriers we're facing, it's because of something we're doing and not doing as opposed to larger barriers, invisible or visible, that I persisted throughout history, frankly. And so Sisterhood allows us to share these struggles together, realize that we're not alone, that the pain we're going through is something bigger than us, but together that we can work through, whether it's sharing strategies, actually dismantling these structures or even just offering each other support so we can cope together. And it's hard. Like we said, sisterhood is something that is not automatic. Even if those of us who grew up with sisters in our family, all the more reason it takes hard work, a sustained, deep, genuine commitment to be in struggle together. Veronica, thank you. That was beautiful. It was. Veronica, thank you.

38:52Tina, thank you so much for coming in. Thank you for having me and Veronica. Thanks again. Same with you. Thank you When I think of why I was excited about this topic what I think about is when women come together and support each other there is just so much tremendous power in that and I'm afraid sometimes that we just don't have that or it's we don't have it enough and so I think Like now when we look at issues that affect all of us in the workplace like sexual harassment for example if we could understand each other's reality a little bit more and Find some common ground and find some things to come together. We really could change workplaces for the better for all of us. I also I worry when when we all agree with each other too much and and and we start to think monolithically and so it's it's better for

39:56certainly more interesting and more fun to get different views and different voices and different perspectives into the conversation. And it's not just because that's good for business. It feels wrong not to do it. And it's really not that interesting. It's just not that interesting to live in an echo chamber. We're not doing our jobs if that's what we allow.

40:27to happen. When I think about the relationships I've formed with other women at work or other people at work I think they start with like something that you have in common. It is not the way all relationships form but like one of my best friends that I've met through work like we bonded over we both had terrible breakups like within the same week and we're both interns at a company we didn't even do the same job but we are now like best friends. It is so true. Some of my best and closest workplace relationships with other women have come about when one of us has kind of admitted we didn't know something or admitted that we're going through a tough breakup or, you know, some story that we're, some struggle that we're sharing. So I think showing some vulnerability actually usually forges those ties really tightly. Yeah. So how else do you establish trust anyway? If you're not entrusting each other with something that you don't show everyone else, right?

41:25And something that we haven't really talked about that relates to that is the research on like quote unquote queen bee syndrome, but that shows that when women have to compete to get the one spot that's usually reserved for women at the top and some companies, that really creates a toxic situation among women. Cause you kind of know like only one of us is probably going to make it unless you have a really diverse sort of senior team with.

41:54Many, spots for many women. So I think that there are organizations where showing vulnerability is harder because you feel like you have to compete against the other women to win. Yeah, I think that's very true. But I also think that when you're climbing through an organization, particularly if it's hard for you to form real bonds with your colleagues, you try to make yourself impervious and invulnerable.

42:24I can't imagine what it was like to be in that first generation of women who were climbing. My mother was an advertising executive. I mentioned this a few hundred times on the show, but she tells a story about, and she was definitely among the first generation of mad women who were climbing to the top of their industries. And she tells a story about what she calls the one ladder for women.

42:52And she was named, I guess, to the executive board of her agency. This would have been, I think, in the 60s or 70s. And they told her, yeah, congratulations. Someone's going to have to tell the one woman who was already on the board that she's no longer on the board. And my mother was absolutely appalled the way you two are.

43:19And she said, I will not do that. That woman was my mentor. I am not pushing her off the board. I think if this happened today, we would call them out and then back it out and do something about it. But in those days, what recourse did a woman have? Right? Yeah. So something that Tina said that struck me was that she doesn't always want people to treat her like they would treat someone of their own race or gender. Because sort of earlier in the conversation, I think Veronica had asked, well, you know, are you treating someone different just because of their race or gender? Like that's a question you can ask yourself. And then Tina said, well, I don't always want to be treated the same. I'm still sort of chewing over that. But for me, that was really interesting and enlightening. And

44:18kind of something to mull over and I'm just wondering how did that strike you guys? I mean my personal preference is I would not want to be treated differently based on my race or gender or being young or any of the aspects of my identity. I think you should still be aware of structural and institutional disadvantages that certain groups face. But like on an individual day-to-day level Do I always want race and gender to come into people's interactions with me? No. But in an organization, if the numbers show that women of color are really disadvantaged in certain ways, do I want that to be addressed at a higher level? Yes. One of the things that I thought about when the idea of doing the Women at Work podcast came up is that I never thought of myself as a woman at work. And I think maybe that's part of being me, it's part of being...

45:16my age, so, you know, I'm one of the older people in the office. I'm gay. I'm Jewish. You know, all of the identity stuff that I never ever talked about because I didn't want to be the gay editor. I didn't want to be the woman editor. I wanted to be the great editor. And that...

45:40that is still something I grapple with. It's still not easy for me to do that, because I've had 35 years of practice not doing it. But I didn't think that I was hiding it. I just didn't think I was emphasizing it, you know? Yeah. I mean, and with Sherrod sisterhood too, the idea is that we're not monolithic. That's something that was very underscored in these conversations.

46:05Something that Tina and Veronica talked about that I found really useful and I think works in a number of contexts is when someone shares a story with you, respond with empathy and validation and then maybe ask without interrupting if you can offer some advice or offer a story of your own or if empathy and validation is what's most helpful.

46:28That stood out to me as a great piece of advice for whoever you're talking with and is also just a good reminder that some of these skills are useful whether you're talking across race or you're talking across age or sexual orientation or a number of different kinds of differences. And that's what shared sisterhood I think should encompass. Yeah. It's like great marital advice too. I think a lot of us maybe thought of our relationships and that advice came out. I was like, whoa, okay. I will say, One of the things I find hard about relationships across age groups is I am now in this kind of middle of my career where many of the women I know, not here at HBR, but who I know socially when we talk about work, they will complain about the younger women in their offices and various things that like the millennials are doing or something. And I really struggle with that because I'm like, you're not being fair to them. Like, you know, and you were judged when you were

47:25Coming out of college and into the workplace and now you're judging someone else and I so I haven't done a very good job of Sort of calling them out on that. I haven't really figured out how to talk about it. So now you guys know if you're listening to this show Stop doing that, but I don't know I feel like because I am in this kind of mid-career Moment I do hear some of those critiques now and they make me really uncomfortable. They're so reductive, you know, they're just begging for counter examples One of the things that Nicole, you really opened my eyes to the pressures of being young in an office like this. It had never occurred to me that being young was a burden. And I think it is. It is. It's something that I'm self-conscious about, you know, that I try to downplay as much as I can because I worry about negative associations with millennials and

48:25I feel like I have a lot to prove and to win other people's respect who have more years of experience doing this work than I do. But what I have really liked, you know, developing relationships with people who are different ages than me, have worked in different fields, just have, you know, different, have had different experiences, is it's opened my eyes to like what I should be striving for before working with Either of you, I kind of had my own ideas about what a good career should look like, like what is what is okay to ask for. I've become more invested in making sure I'm not just sitting at my desk hoping that my work speaks for itself. I feel more comfortable. Yeah.

49:15Like I had my eyes open to what it will take to be recognized and why relationships are really important and why you have to do some self-advocating and how that self-advocating is okay. And so, you know, working with both of you who have more experience than me, different experiences, it doesn't feel like a path untraveled that I have to completely figure out on my own for the first time. But don't you also know that you have advocates in us, that you have people in your corner?

49:43Yes. And that makes the whole thing, it makes it easier and it makes me feel safe in, you know, asking for more. Yeah. And you can try stuff out on us. Like, we'll keep you from putting a foot wrong. I hope so. That's our show. And officially the end of season two. I'm Nicole Torres. I'm Amy Bernstein. I'm Sarah Green-Kermichael. Our producer is Amanda Cursey. Our audio product manager is Adam Buckholz.

50:15Maureen Hoek is our supervising editor, and we get production help from Rob Eckhart and Isis Madrid. Erica Truxler makes our discussion guides, Jam Olajars copy edits those as well as our show notes. Laura Amiko runs the Women at Work online group, Karen Player designed our logo, and Laura Guillen did our landing page. Like Nicole said, it's officially the end of season two, but it's not the last you'll hear from us this fall. We did a live taping in New York City for the Work It Women's podcast festival.

50:45Our talk was about self-disclosure at work and behind the mic. This was a surprising challenge for me. I think of myself as a very open person, but suddenly I was like, oh maybe, maybe I'm not going to share that. I thought we could just podcast and talk about the research and studies, and I wouldn't have to talk about myself at all. And we'll put it in our feed for you to listen to. Plus, we just launched the Women at Work newsletter.

51:10And we'll be giving you updates there about what's next for the show. And we'll talk about all the gender and leadership research we're publishing at HBR. Please sign up. So as you guys have just heard, we had a lot of people working on this show behind the scenes. And we couldn't have done it without them. But we also could not have done it without all of you. And your listenership and support and your tweets and your emails have meant so much to us.

51:36and we sit here in the office and we share your emails and they make us super emotional and super grateful. Yeah, you guys are the best. Thank you.