Women at Work - Step into the Spotlight

0:04Can I ask you about something that I have found makes me very uncomfortable with visibility? You're listening to Women at Work on stage at 6th and I, a synagogue and cultural center in Washington DC. We were there to talk about ways to raise our visibility at work because opportunities come to us when people in power see us and know what we're up to. But like Nicole's saying, visibility's tricky.

0:27I've always been told that my work should speak for itself, and you shouldn't brag about things that you're achieving or try to draw the spotlight to you. And I wonder if you see that, and if there's a way to overcome that discomfort. Muriel Wilkins was our guest expert. Muriel's a managing partner and co-founder of Paravis Partners, a consulting firm that helps people develop leadership skills. She co-wrote the book, Own the Room. Thank you.

0:56Here's our producer Amanda Cursey starting us off. Thank you Sixth and I for hosting us. Thank you everybody who came out tonight. I had a really good time chatting with some of you before we came up on the stage. So we wanted to have a conversation about workplace visibility because it is this thing that can really advance our careers. But until recently, I didn't really know how one thing led to the other. I'm hoping we can connect the dots about how visibility can lead to promotability.

1:37We like to think that our work speaks for itself, but I think it's helpful to see the connection between visibility and promotion or career success with an example. So let's take Nicole, for example. Let's say Nicole works on a really fabulous video project at HBR. Her manager Maureen knows she does that, is very excited about it, but most of the other people who work at HBR don't know about it. They know the project exists. Maybe they know Nicole works on it, but they're not sure exactly what she does.

2:07So Nicole maybe has the opportunity to speak in front of a larger group at HBR about that work. In doing that, and essentially promoting the project, promoting her work on it, then other people know, okay, Nicole's affiliated with that project. Next time those people are in a room with Maureen, her manager, they might say, hey, that sounds like a cool project. What's going on with that?

2:31and so they might learn more. Or Nicole's name might come up when morning's in the room and someone says, wow, Nicole's working on a lot of things. How is she handling all of that work? And how I think about it or how I've started thinking about this too is that many people who have decision-making power over your career and your advancement in your firm probably don't know what you do on a day-to-day basis like your manager and like your colleagues do. So speaking out for your work and making sure that that work is visible, helps you ensure that your value to the team and your contributions will be recognized and rewarded. Well, there comes a point in your career where you've made yourself kind of known to the organization, you get promoted, and then stepping into the spotlight becomes part of your job. Either organizationally, sometimes you go out in public, you speak for your organization. So you're also building these muscles.

3:30that will come in very handy as you move up. Exactly. Miral, how has the way that you have tried to be visible at work changed since earlier in your career to now? Yeah. I wasn't somebody who early on in my career had a hard time with trying to get visibility. Somehow it just occurred to me that I needed to form good relationships with those more senior than me.

3:58in order to be able to make my life a little easier. But when things got really complicated was when I got further into my career. And I remember my first leadership role where I sat at the executive table and I get so frustrated because I felt like I was just banging my head against a wall to get things done. And I personally thought they were really good ideas, but it didn't seem like anybody else was willing to do them. And I remember going home, day after day and telling my husband and we were newlyweds at the time and telling him You know, it's so frustrating dealing with these people who were my peers In terms of getting these ideas and one day he calmly said to me You know, did you ever think maybe the problem is you and not them? And we're still married And of course I said absolutely not it's not me, but he was right

4:53Because what I hadn't realized was that visibility early on in my career had to deal with this one-on-one relationship with my boss or those more senior. And as I gained influence in the organization, visibility was much more about bringing other people into the spotlight.

5:09And the more I could share that spotlight with my peers, actually that's what gave me traction to be able to get things on board, to get things moving, and then it expanded to my team and then it expanded to others. And fast forward to now, where I have my own business, it truly is about, it's not even about visibility on me, it's visibility about my team, my clients, my partners, and the community, and that in retrospect then shines the light back on me.

5:37so it becomes a very reciprocal relationship. So it was a hard lesson to learn, but thankfully it happened, and I was able to carry it forward. So I want to bring in a couple of research findings. They're from a team of researchers then working at Stanford who followed groups of women over two years, and they were trying to understand how these women navigated workplace visibility. And here's one of the researchers, Swetha Balakrishnan. The one thing that my co-authors, Priya Fielding Singh, Devan Megliosi, and I found was that women constantly across these groups said over and over again that they used a strategy of invisible behind the scenes leadership. Of course, they didn't always use the word invisible.

6:29but they would frame their leadership style as incremental advancement without calling attention to themselves. And Swetha pointed out that although invisibility isn't a good strategy, it is a strategy. Women aren't just doing this because poor women don't know that visibility is important. It's not this agency less action.

6:53Women recognize that visibility is probably going to get them forward, but they also know that visibility is not serving them the same way it can serve other actors in the organization. So to respond to this biased environment, they employ intentional invisibility. And there were three main reasons why these groups of women didn't do workplace visibility.

7:18The first was women just thought the dominant leadership style was assertive, it was individualistic, it was very self-promoting and they didn't see themselves as being that sort of leader. The second is it was not just authentic, it was also effective. So women felt like when they were aggressive, when they did take on these roles of individualistic self-promoting selves, there was a backlash because that doesn't reconcile with the expectations of feminine norms that they are attached to.

7:47The third reason was it helped them feed different kinds of family stability, right? So we followed women who had families and who had responsibilities, not just at work, but were also balancing incredible pressure from partners to make specific choices about their careers. So, Muriel, let's start with authenticity, this first reason why these women chose to not do visibility at work, like, how do you coach women who say that being visible at work feels inauthentic, feels out of character for them? Right. And that comes up a lot, right? This question of it doesn't feel like I'm being me or it feels like I'm...

8:33self-promoting, which in and of itself is very loaded to come in with that story around visibility. The fact that that's your starting point, that it's self-promoted. And by all means, when I work with my clients and coach them, It's really important that they do keep a level of authenticity. And what I try to help them to understand is that there's one thing about being authentic. The real question is, how can you be authentic within the context that you're in? Because you're not working in a vacuum, right? You choose to work in a particular organization. You choose to work in a particular culture. You choose to associate yourself with a particular team. And so how do you keep your authenticity within that context?

9:15In order for them to be able to do that, it often starts with them starting to think about what is it that's uncomfortable about trying to get visibility. And, you know, like I think about a client I have who's an extreme introvert, and she's like, I will not go to any networking events. And I said, me neither. Like I'm the one with the, you know, fake talking on my phone in the corner.

9:37And I said, all right, so let's rule that out. What would make you feel comfortable? She said the one-on-one conversation. All right, so let's focus on that as your way to build visibility. I'm not promising that you'll never go to a networking event, but let's try to maximize the things that make you comfortable. And so as they start thinking about what makes them comfortable, that's truer to who they are, then they can start thinking about the conditions that actually will increase the probability that they'll work on their visibility.

10:02So it's never about being inauthentic. It's about finding ways that makes it comfortable for you. Can I point out one other thing we heard in the recording was that these women that they had studied, they avoided the spotlight as a way to avoid conflict. I think that came up as a big barrier, a big obstacle to visibility. Amy, since you are our conflict expert, what did you make of that?

10:27I'm not surprised to hear that. And I think there's two things going on. One of which Swetha talked about, which is that self-promotion or being visible tends to violate what we think of as feminine norms. It's the same reason I put 18 exclamation points and five emojis in every email I write. I'm like, I must be likable. And if I don't do that, it feels aggressive. So I think there's this sense that when you're not adhering to the gender norms that you're somehow being aggressive or assertive. So I think that's one, it does feel like a violation of the norm so it feels like a conflict. The second is I think there's sometimes a notion that visibility is a limited resource, so finite resource, so by you getting the spotlight, you're taking it away from someone else and therefore it can be set up as a fight. And I think that might be true in some organizations, but my experience is that

11:25to Muriel's point earlier about sharing the spotlight with others, it does not have to be aggressive, it does not have to be a finite resource, sometimes promotions and raises might be finite, but visibility doesn't have to be. What about the fear that making some people visible will make other people feel bad? That's a good question. Do you want to answer that? Sure.

11:53Did you notice I was sharing the spotlight? Yeah, I've got an emoji for you, Amy. So I want to understand the question better. Is it that if I as a manager say, look at what Nicole did. Isn't this wonderful that I'm going to make the other people in the room feel bad? Yeah. So I have a couple of thoughts about that off the top of my head. And one of them is that I never want the fear that I might hurt someone's feelings inadvertently, keep me from giving you the praise you deserve, the public praise you deserve. And then for you as the recipient of that spotlight, of that glow, you know, you cannot worry about that unless you feel that

12:51the credit needs to be shared, then there's something you can do about that. You should really not worry about making somebody feel bad. You should be worried about exacerbating them already feeling bad.

13:05So most individuals walk in already with a certain feeling. Now if you're exacerbating, basically by saying, look at me, look at me, I got the spotlight. Right? Like, that's a very different notion than you in your own credit getting the spotlight. And so that's where there's a difference between making somebody feel a certain way, which is very hard to make someone feel a certain way, versus exacerbating.

13:28how they might already be feeling. So Muriel, how do you apply that thinking to the manager who's handing out the warmth of the spotlight? Yeah, to the manager who in terms of... If I manage a team on which Nicole's a member and I am about to say, you know, this is amazing, Nicole's going to step up and talk about this project she's been working on, what is my job?

13:58regarding that person who's feeling a little pissed off. That's great. So I think the role of the manager is to create equal opportunity, right? So the role of the manager is to lay the foundation for individuals to be able to step up. Who steps up, the manager can't control. So if the manager is providing praise to one individual and it's worthy of it, that's absolutely fine as long as if somebody else is deserving of praise, they're also getting it. The manager has, you know, it's almost like I'm presenting to you the plate of cookies, whether you grab one or not is up to you, but I'm gonna keep presenting it to you until you tell me you don't want it. And then if you tell me you don't want one, then I should explain to you, that's fine, but here's why I think you should have one. Because nobody wants to be blindsided by the fact that you didn't get, you know, learn two years later that the reason you didn't get that opportunity is because

14:53Oh, I didn't know you wanted me to be visible to all these people. I think where we start running into issues is when there seems to be laser focus on one individual who has earned it, and then somebody else who has also earned it, right, it's not unwarranted, is not getting any of the credit. So for the manager, it's being very conscious of how they are doling it out. I think the other thing that the manager is responsible for is also managing themselves, right? I had a client once who got feedback from her manager that she should be more visible. And then she went out and got the visibility, and then he said to her, you need to stay in your lane. Because he was starting to feel a little threatened, right? Like she was showing up at the stuff that he went to. But they had to talk it out for him to recognize, no, this actually looks good for you too.

15:44for me to be at these things. So he came around, but as a manager, you've got to have your own self-confidence, too, that one of the best things you're doing as a manager is actually raising talent and developing talent and pushing people forward. You help people, women, who want to be more visible, gain visibility. Right. Everybody wants kind of the...

16:1010 rules on how to become more visible. And I think it takes practice, just like anything else. And it's not just about going to the event or going and having that meeting, although that's a good place to start. But you want to think about it at a couple of different levels.

16:26The first place is you want to think about your mindset going into it. How are you even thinking about visibility? If you think about visibility as a bad word, guess what? It's going to be a bad experience and you're not going to do it, right? So you want to be thinking about how is visibility actually beneficial for me, for others? Why am I doing it? There has to be a purpose behind it. And I think that's especially important for women.

16:48because we tend to be more purpose-driven, that there is a purpose even larger than us as to why we want to be visible. The second thing is once you've... Let me ask a question about that because I think the purpose from what I understand cannot be because I'm supposed to. The purpose has to be something...

17:06That'll get you in the door the first time, and then it becomes quickly unsustainable. The minute it goes wrong, you're like, I'm out, I'm done. I shouldn't have. I wasn't supposed to. And it got me in trouble. So it really has to be something, again, authentic. And that might be very different individual to individual, but there should be a reason why you're going to do it, not just because it's a nice check-the-box thing to do.

17:30You know, I think the second area that you want to pay attention to and think about is what are you actually going to do when you have that visibility? Again, when you raise your hand and you get called on, what do you do? And here's where how you communicate becomes really important. Are you able to get your point across in a clear, concise way where people actually understand what you're saying? And I think this is where preparation is key. If you're going to that meeting, think about what you want to say. Don't wait.

17:59to the spotlight is on you, and then you're like, oh, shoot. Yeah, I think I had something to say, but I'm not quite sure. So think about it. What are the three points that you want to get across? And then lastly, there's also a physical component to visibility. With some of my clients who tend to be the ones who will walk into a meeting and be the ones who sit against a wall or sit caddy corner or not take the seat, I literally tell them, I want you to pull that seat up to the table, do what your momma taught you not to do, which is put your elbows on the table and look at everyone and start talking. And that's to help them physically feel like they are at the table because they are, right? They are. And so thinking about all of those components and practicing them all together is what really helps versus I just need to show up. Muriel, how have you seen a woman do visibility badly?

18:57When have I seen it done badly? What's an example? What's a story? You can tell your own story, but I imagine you've worked through this issue with some of your clients. So what's an example of how we should not do visibility? There's a couple of ways. One is I have an example of actually a client I'm working with now who has done a phenomenal job in terms of getting her ideas out there and getting buy-in from a certain group of people and being visible to them, but she's completely ignored a whole other set within your organization. And it's coming back to bite her. So in that particular situation, it went badly because she didn't define visibility in a large enough scope, right? So one is like, who are you trying to be visible to? And is that really again gonna help you? I think the second way that I see it go badly is not necessarily about the who, but the how.

19:52So it is, and that's where we start to draw the, you know, cross the thin line between being assertive and abrasive. And that usually starts with the intention is probably not good, but when it's not done well, it is about taking all the glory, it's overly done. And it is very much reflective like me, me, me, me, me until realizing, oh, I've actually gotten enough.

20:17Now, how can I start sharing the spotlight with others? So it becomes much more about the how and cutting other people down to that is not good. So, you know, you've drifted into that. How do you know? I mean, it's easy enough to identify when someone else does it, but how do you know when you're doing it? Wouldn't it be nice if we just knew if we had some alarm clock that said only you're overdoing it? Or a husband who tells you. So, you know, I think that If you don't have that level of self-awareness to realize that, oh wow, you know, some people, it feels like they're avoiding me, which at times happens. They're walking away from me in the hallway. I think this is where it's actually really important to, it sounds ideal, but it's critical is to ask for feedback. And I highly, highly always encourage people to have one or two or three or a set of advisors within your organization. If you can't, people who you trust that will tell you the truth.

21:17And you can ask them, right? Like, am I overdoing it? You know, I know I got praise on this thing. I know I got credit. I know I'm pushing for that next promotion or that next project or that next opportunity. Is it too much? Is it a little too extra? And look to see what they'll share with you back. Over time, though, you do want to build that internal self-awareness to recognize Hey, I'm pushing too hard, or I'm talking too loudly, or I'm doing X, Y, Z, because that should be your main cue at some point. What if you're blindsided by suddenly being in the spotlight and you just don't want to freak out, you don't want to recede? How do you have the mindfulness to just stay in it, let it be on you, like shine? How do you endure the spotlight? How do you enjoy it?

22:09So that's really interesting because I think, you know, it's one of those things like some people finally get the spotlight and because they never thought they were gonna get it to begin with and then they're in it and then it's like, no, no, no, I don't want it anymore, but you're in it, so what do you do?

22:24And you are in so much more control at that point, because you're there. And I think for those individuals, I encourage them to, again, think back to the why. What's the purpose? And that purpose may have changed at this point. It might be for a different reason. So one is to think about the why. And then the second is to also go back to this question of what conditions need to be in place to make this sustainable for you. And so in a very concrete way, let's say I had a client who really needed to work on her external visibility, but she also had young kids at home. She couldn't be out, you know, five nights a week at different events. And so she gave herself a quota, right? She said, I'm doing one a week. That's for a month. And what it forced her to do is be really...

23:11focused on which ones she was going to choose to go to. It wasn't this fear of missing out. Let me go to everything. Let me be aimless. Let me be really clear about which ones I'm going to not only benefit from the most, but they're also going to benefit from me being there. It's the same with meetings. It doesn't even have to be an event. And it caused her to be laser focused. And then when she was there, make the most of it. So she actually got more in return from lasering in.

23:37and being really clear and conscious about what she was doing, then spreading herself then. And it helped her just from an endurance standpoint. She didn't have to be at everything all the time. What about if you screw up in the spotlight? How do you bounce back? Yeah, pick yourself back up. Dust yourself off, right? Look, I think that resilience is key.

24:01And not just with visibility, but anything, right? That's life. I think one of the biggest differentiators in individuals is this factor of resilience that one has. And it is a muscle that you build over time. And the thing with if you screw up on the visibility front, nine times out of 10, your perception of how big you're screwed up is probably much more magnified than how others see it. So what you literally have to do is be able to get back out there again, because that's the best practice you can have to overcoming any type of screw up. Finally, why is visibility, ironically, this hidden phenomenon in the workplace for career advancement? It's not, at least in my experience, a term that anybody had ever talked to me about. Why is it a mystery? I don't necessarily think it's a...

24:56It's a mystery. It might just not be what's being talked at our tables, right? You're hired in for your technical skills. The things like visibility are things that differentiate you over time. It's not written in your job description, but it's what makes a difference. It's what differentiates the folks who are really good and the folks that are considered really great.

25:20And it's things like visibility, like communication, like presence, all the soft skills, which is why people end up saying those are actually the hardest things to learn. And if you haven't been at a table or had a mentor or a sponsor or a teacher or a partner or a friend who has said, hey, you know, you should really be thinking about this, then it feels like a mystery or a secret until you realize Oh, that's what they're doing. Now I know. And this is the thing. It actually becomes harder once you know. Because then you're like, shoot, do I do something about it or not? Right? And it becomes a choice. But there's much more power in having a choice than in operating and not knowing. OK. We've been talking for quite a while. And we want to hear from you. We have two microphones right here. And anybody who's sitting upstairs

26:13We want to hear from you, too, if you'd like to come down and line up. Oh, there's so many of you. I'm glad. Why don't we start here? Hi. I'm Randy Braun. I work in business development by day. By night, I coach women. And in between, I am an avid listener of your podcast. So thank you so much for coming to Washington.

26:34One of the things that struck me in your conversation when we talked about the cookies was the conversation presupposes a manager who is doling out those cookies fairly. And one of the things that I've personally experienced that so many of the women that I work with have experienced as well is that sometimes female managers are actually the biggest obstacle for other female managers. And I wonder, I think it's this fear, right, of the spotlight being finite.

27:03And I wonder if there's any places that you would perhaps nuance some of the feedback and tips that you shared today for when you're working in one of those challenging environments where women, unfortunately, are not uplifting and empowering other women. Sure. I'm all about empowering other women. But I think that you have to, again, go back to start with what's within your control.

27:35And if it's a pattern that you're seeing, the way you shared it is kind of a pattern that you see, right? There's a theme that's happening. And it's very hard to try to battle the whole theme and to work against that theme. But if you can have a constructive conversation with the individual who has that impact on you, presumably your manager, and not position it as a, hey, this is what you are doing, but rather, here's what I would like for my career, and here's how you can help, would you be willing to do that? And I think this last piece is where we miss a lot, where we don't make the ask. We just put it out there and say, here's what I want, and then that's it. And expect people to say, oh, oh, okay, here, right? And so this manager may not even be aware, a lot of people give benefit of the doubt,

28:32But if you can be very concrete around how she can help you, you can then start looking at, you know, is it truly a function of she's out to get me or feel threatened by me or whatever those other things are, or is it a function of, oh, she didn't even know I wanted it, or that she didn't know what to do to help me. And if that person's not working out, this is why it's really important with visibility that a big part of it is being able to broaden your support system.

29:01Don't only rely on your manager to lift you up. You should be looking to have a team behind you. And so if that person's not working out, we've all had that bad manager, which by the way will be the person you most learn from in your career. You know, don't rely, don't feel like you should be held hostage by that one person and expect the ideal that may not happen. Make sure you have a whole team as your support system. Go and seek out other people to sponsor you.

29:30and mentor you along the way. That's not going to be the manager for the rest of your life. The other thing, anytime people ask for managing up advice, I always say, Figure out what your manager wants to achieve and see how you can align yourself to help them achieve that. And so there are ways to be visible while helping them achieve their goals. You're talking about a manager who thinks you're on the opposite side of the table and you need to put yourselves on the same side of the table so you're facing the same goals together. Thank you for your question.

30:03Yes. My name is Allison Shapira. I run a training firm teaching public speaking and executive presence where the focus on women in leadership. And my question is around sponsorship. As you mentioned earlier, there's fascinating research showing that women are over mentored and undersponsored. And my question is, do you think it's the responsibility of the individual or her manager in order to seek out sponsors? And how do you coach people to do that?

30:32And many people may not like what I have to say about this. So my mantra and my clients here over and over and over, mentorship is equal opportunity. Everyone is deserving of a mentor. If you don't have one, you deserve one, go get one tonight. Sponsorship is earned.

30:51And the reason why is because a sponsor is very different than a mentor. A sponsor has to do specific things for you. They are providing you with backing to help you for advancement, and they're also sharing their social capital with you. And so it's a much more vested relationship. And they're getting something in return, by the way. It's quite transactional.

31:14So I do think that from a sponsorship standpoint, the onus is on the individual to seek out sponsorship. However, a manager should try not to stand in the way of that sponsorship. I think that's the manager's responsibility, right? Because oftentimes your best sponsors are not necessarily your managers. And your best sponsors are not necessarily the individuals who look like you, who you like to talk to at lunch.

31:43and who remind you of your best friend. They tend to be the person with the most weight in the organization who oftentimes may not be us. Yes. Hi. My name is Rebecca Perry. I'm a health services researcher. And I also lead a women's group at my organization. And one of the things that we kind of have touched on a little bit, but one of the things that comes to mind often in our leadership group, is this idea that For men, it seems a lot easier to gain visibility, to know when you are being visible to the point where it's a little bit obscene and when it's not. Why is there this difference? Do you guys have any insight? In particular, when you think about sponsorship, I also think about some of my male colleagues who find it easier sometimes to get sponsorship.

32:37And so I wonder, what is generating that? And is there something that we as women can do to help kind of reshuffle that deck or retilt that ship? One thing I would note is that a lot of it has to do with representation. So it's easy to know you're supposed to be visible as people who look and sound and act like you are already visible.

33:04because you're just following the footsteps. So one thing we can all do is hire and promote more women so that we have role models. I think all of us have admitted we did not know this was part of our job when we started and probably because we didn't see a lot of women doing it. So getting women in positions, representation so we know that this is something that's not just okay to do rather but desired is really important. I also think it's important to Target those individuals who you see that are doing what you would like to do and ask them learn from them, right? Even if they are completely different like analyze what they do I had a client once and he was actually a male who came from very Just didn't have much growing up didn't have the best schooling etc yet He had his eye like very early on in his career. He wanted to be a ceo That's all he didn't know what a ceo was but that's what he wanted to do and he told me the story and he said I studied

34:04I, like, studied 10 CEOs and I looked at their biographies and I looked at what they did and I looked at what schools they went to and I looked at who they hung around with and then I met some and I asked him, what did you do? Tell me the 10 things you did. And then I did that. And he was a CEO by the time he was 32. And he meticulously worked the plan. Now that's a little obsessive, but he learned. If you see somebody getting that visibility rather than at times, I'll speak for myself judging, Right, seek out, if that's what I want, let me ask them, what is it that you do? Like, what do you do? How do you get about it? What do you think? Who do you talk to? What do you do? And that will help as well. But I also think that you said you run the women's group at your office. Yeah, I mean, that is a great way to kind of rewire that dynamic. I mean, if you and your fellow women's group members are talking about this and talking about how you can

35:03achieve the visibility that you're looking for together, you can help each other. And sometimes having had that conversation, if one of your colleagues from the group is sitting across the table from you in a meeting, that's kind of the spur to you, to speak up, you know? You've said you wanted to do this together, now you know it's your job to do it, right? Thank you, yes. My name's Nicole, I'm an IT manager, and I'm also the mother of young children. So my question about visibility has to do more in the context of family obligations and the audio we heard that one of the reasons maybe women aren't as visible or don't aggressively go out and get visibility is because of their other commitments. So I'm interested in your perspectives on if there's a way to be visible, if there's a season to keep your head down, if you're not willing to accept additional responsibility,

36:00yet, so that you're still in a position maybe in 10 years, in five years, to then accept it versus creating a stigma now that says, well, she's visible, but she'll never say yes. Thank you. I know for me personally, I have a 12-year-old daughter, and for a long time there were these polls on my time that felt You know that it was pulling against my time with her and one of the the real changes of frame of mind that I've had to to shift to is that being visible is for her. Not just because I am able to get promoted and have a livelihood, but because I grew up, I had a single mom as a mother who was very visible. She had a job that she was publicly recognized for. And it was a huge part of what shaped me and shaped my desire to be a working mother. And I want that for my daughter too. So the visibility, to Muriel's point about purpose,

36:59Part of my reason for being visible is so that my daughter knows that I am respected and that work is important to me and that she can do the same when she goes out. Well, the other thing I want to point out is that visibility isn't all about only about public speaking and going on tour or whatever. I mean, for me, the much harder nut to crack was speaking up in meetings.

37:23I mean, I had ideas, I had thoughts, but I just couldn't bring myself to blurt them out at the table. That wasn't taking on extra work. I mean, it was psychic work, that's for sure, but it wasn't committing to do more stuff at work. And once I sort of made that breakthrough, just because I kept challenging myself, That was a far more important step than making the first speech, let's say. I think that's a really important point because I think some people see it as black and white, you know, either I'm all in or I'm not. And I go back to this question of, all right, so we know, and I have kids too, I have 12 year old twins. And so the question becomes, I have my kids, I have my work, I want to be visible, want underline and bolded.

38:20under what conditions can I be visible? So it may not be the event, but then maybe it's speaking of the meeting. So let me focus on that, because it is about making trade off, as long as you're making a choice.

38:32Once you're on autopilot and you're not making a choice, nobody wins, right? So it's about what trade-off am I willing to live with? And if the trade-off is, my visibility is going to be focused on from nine to five when I'm here. All right, then work the heck out of that nine to five. But at least you have a strategy that's going to work for you with where you are in your life right now. Thank you. Yes.

38:55Hi, my name is Julia and my beloved manager just recently announced that she was leaving our firm. And as we're navigating this transition, it has become increasingly clear to me that she may not have been getting the visibility for our team that I see as beneficial.

39:17And I'm somebody who has historically really tried hard to put the wheeze in there instead of the eyes, so I have spent a lot of time sort of raining myself back. And now I'm going to be co-leading a team that I think isn't getting the credit it's deserving. And so I wanted to see if you had any advice for me as I try to step up on behalf of my team without going back into some old habits that didn't play well before.

39:45All right, so I think in terms of getting visibility for your team, one of the biggest things you can do is get some quick wins. Figure out things that are gonna have, that you can be successful as a team. Don't just celebrate it privately, but celebrate it publicly, meaning to the rest of the organization. Keep those folks who you want them to know about your team. Let them know what milestones you're hitting. Don't wait till the end.

40:11of the project, which is what a lot of people do. It's like six months later, oh, we're done and it was great. No, let them know what the plan is and then keep them up to date. That way they're seeing movement, right? And that's usually what gets credit, is there's movement on a particular thing towards a particular goal, sharing what it is that your team is doing. But be very, again, focused on who is it that you're trying to target? Who is it that you want to have some knowledge around what your team is doing?

40:40Thank you. Thank you everybody for coming out tonight. It was such a pleasure to be here with you. Special thanks to Amy Pufftack for coordinating this live event.