Women at Work - The Essentials: Negotiating Strategically

0:05You're listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. I'm Amy Gallo. Like many of us, Marissa Marrow built her current career by negotiating. She had been making cheese in small batches since she was a teenager. In her early 20s, having mastered the craft, she started a one woman business, Ploughgate Creamery. Over the next few years, she grew the business and gained recognition. She even won a first place award from the American Cheese Society. But then, a fire burned down the facility where she rented space. Marissa took a break from cheesemaking and got a job waitressing. And then one day she caught wind that the Vermont Land Trust had opened applications to farmers interested in buying at less than market price 50 acres of land in the century old defunct farm on it. Marissa submitted a business plan to make butter there that the Land Trust accepted.

1:00But before she could put that plan into action, she had to formalize it legally by creating a conservation easement. And that is a forever document that stays with the farm to protect it so that it stays in farming and also that it's not developed. After finalizing the easement, she negotiated for all the labor and equipment and raw materials needed to get the farm functioning again. As a small business owner, she's never stopped negotiating.

1:29it's an everyday practice. But until now, she hadn't really stopped to name and analyze and appreciate the underlying principles, which is Ashley Shelby Rosette's specialty. Ashley is a professor at Duke University. Her research and teaching focuses on negotiations, or as she defines it, interdependent decision making. So interdependent means that we're unable to participate without someone else. And decision-making, meaning the process by which we choose an option from the available alternatives. This concept of interdependent decision-making, Ashley says, encompasses several different types of scenarios. So some negotiations are distributive in nature whereby the goal is to claim value. Others are integrative in nature whereby the goal is to create value and then claim value. Some negotiations are transaction-based and that's where you want to make a deal.

2:21and other negotiations, it's not about the transaction, it's about conflicts and disputes and just disagreement of ideas. In this conversation, we're bringing together Marissa's and Ashley's wisdom to talk through negotiation tactics that help us get what we want and need. Ashley, Marissa, thank you so much for joining us today. Happy to be here, Amy. Thanks for having me. Marissa, what types of negotiations are you engaged in regularly?

2:54So I think being a small business owner, you have to be involved in many different levels of negotiation with different demographics of people. So I have to get my product to market through distribution. There's many ways that works with pricing and logistics.

3:15Then there's the farmers who I'm buying cream from directly. There's farmers that also lease my land for other agricultural purposes. And then employees is the other one. Yeah. Making job offers, negotiating raises maybe. Yeah. Not many folks ask me for raises, but I believe in giving raises to hold on to good people. Yeah.

3:42Can you share an example of a recent negotiation you went through? Yes, so the dairy farmers that I purchased cream from recently told me they were going to have a shortage of cream in the coming months and they were unsure of a solution. So I called a meeting to bring us all together to find a solution. Building relationships is very important to me in running a small business and so when I went to meet with the farmers I baked a pie and I brought butter and I sat everyone down around a table and that was a great way to break the ice with them.

4:19In my mind a contract would have been ideal but it's not always possible for the nature and scale of my business and when I entered the meeting literally the first thing one of the farmers said was I bet you were hoping for a contract so I knew that was immediately off the table. So I asked them to explain to me more the inner workings of the processing plant.

4:44And I asked some questions around volumes other customers were getting, staffing and equipment that they currently use. And through these discussions, I learned that they needed an additional piece of equipment to solve the issue. So I said, there it is. I can help. And I was able to source the equipment and keep us on track. It wasn't about...

5:06prices, but it was about ensuring that I could get the volume of cream I needed to hit the sales goals that makes my company viable. There's so much there in terms of just someone who studies negotiation to potentially unpack here and I think you've highlighted a lot of really important ideas. One, that negotiation occurs in phases and the phases can be short or they can be long but it depends on the type of negotiation that you're walking into and the goal of the negotiation, right? So for you, this is a long continued relationship and sometimes that first phase of building rapport can last five minutes. Sometimes

5:47it can last for months, just trying to make sure that you have this certain level of trust before the transaction can even take place. So you recognizing that, and most importantly, then communicating that upfront, I think helps to manage the process quite well. So had you engaged and talked for about two hours thinking that you'd have a deal at the end of those two hours, that might have been very frustrating for you. But because they initially said, look, let me just tell you about our process. There's probably not going to be a deal today, then you can say, okay, now the pressure is off. This is just, you know, we're just sharing information. We're just getting to know each other. And because of that rapport that you are attempting to develop, it sounds like they're willing to share with you, be vulnerable with you. And then you're actually able to find a way that you guys could work together, something that probably didn't hurt you very much, but helped them a lot. And then further, what you're doing is you're actually giving the basis, right? For that transaction that comes later on. So first phase can be.

6:46short, it can be long, but nonetheless, recognizing what's the goal, diagnosing that ahead of time. And it sounds like you did that exceptionally well. Well, I like this idea of phases, Ashley. Me too. And it sounds like the first phase, Marissa, correct me if I'm wrong, was the baking of the pie, right? I mean, she was planning for this conversation by thinking about the connection with these farmers. And I'd love to hear your thoughts, Ashley, on that sort of preparation going in, What is the correct preparation and do we always need to bake pies? So a frequent mantra that I use when I am discussing negotiations is that a good negotiator is a prepared negotiator. And preparation begins prior to the negotiation, not necessarily at the negotiation table.

7:39good thought process is what Marissa did in terms of thinking about what she could do prior to the negotiation was exceptionally important. Another good way is what we call a planning document. And so that may mean Marissa, even though it may be a good idea to keep these things in your head, but to actually write down those things that are extremely important to you. What are your goals? What are your alternatives? How are you going to begin this negotiation? So documenting that and reflecting on that can be an exceptionally important tool to prepare for the negotiation. And so a good planning document it can help minimize the anxiety, increase the confidence, minimize gaps at the negotiation table. So it's a written record that documents some of the most important issues before you negotiate, right? And so thinking about these issues before the negotiation...

8:29puts you in a better place to manage that overall negotiation process. And you may even go so far as actually to negotiate and map out that process that you were talking about. This is the first meeting. In this meeting, we're going to accomplish this, all right? Phase two, this is the next meeting. So a good negotiator is a prepared negotiator. Marissa, it sounds like you were a prepared negotiator.

8:49I really love that, Ashley. Are there some questions like if I wanted to create a document or a format for future negotiations? Is there like a list of questions that you suggest? Absolutely. So again...

9:04First, we diagnose the type of negotiations, right? So is this distributed where I'm trying to get the most for myself? Is it integrated where we're both trying to get something and create the right? So first, you diagnose the type of negotiation. And then once you diagnose the type of negotiation, then that's gonna dictate the types of questions that you might want to consider. But some very basics are, what are the issues on the table?

9:27That's number one. So listing all of the issues, then going back and ranking those issues, which ones are the absolute most important to me? Which ones would I be willing to give on? I also mentioned the notion of target, and that is in a perfect world. This is my ideal target. I would like to walk away from this agreement, and this would make me exceptionally happy. But you also want to include in that document, all right, that's my target. But what's the le- the amount that I'm willing to accept, right? Before walking away. And then you also, Marissa, need to fundamentally know if I don't get a deal here.

10:03What am I going to do? And keeping an eye on that alternative is really important. Number one, you need to know what you want to walk away to to make sure that you don't take something so far in this negotiation, right? And the stronger that alternative is, the better the negotiation tends to be because you have a really, really strong alternative. You push really hard in that negotiation because you're not going to take anything less.

10:26When your alternative is a bit weak, right? You know, then you don't quite have as much power. But the thing is, the most important thing, Marissa, is thinking about these things before you negotiate and not in the middle of the negotiation. The one thing that I would also say, also focus on the opposing party. So if you think about what your goal is, what is their goal?

10:47If you think about what your alternative is, what you have to walk away to, what is it that they have to walk away to? If you think about what your most important issues are, what are theirs? And then you use the negotiation process to go through a diagnostic to see about what is it that I thought about ahead of time and is that true? Because guess what? They're trying to guess what the least amount is that you're trying to get and you're trying to get what the most amount is that they're trying to pay and so giving that information and thinking about that whole process of all those issues, a priori helps you determine what that bargaining zone is, such that you end up coming to an agreement that is exceptionally favorable to you and not something that is subpar. Thank you, Ashley. That was really helpful. Yeah. So this, would you say this is an integrative negotiation, Ashley? The one with the farmers? No, I think what you did was you

11:41took a distributive negotiation and you made it integrative by adding an additional issue and you were able to uncover that additional issue by developing this rapport with them such that they were willing to trust you and share information with you. Sometimes when you don't have that rapport and you don't have that trust, people will keep their problems close to the vest because they think that you might take that information and exploit it and use it against them. But instead, what you did was you took something that was just about initially on the face getting a deal such that you can move your business forward and you made it much bigger than that. So you weren't claiming value, you were actually creating value for both of you and so that is successfully turning a distributive negotiation into an integrative negotiation and you did that exceptionally well. It's almost textbook how well you did that.

12:36Let me ask about the role of relationships here. It sounds like what Marissa did was prioritize her relationship with these folks, with these farmers. And is that something actually you think most people should be doing in a negotiation or does it depend on the nature?

12:53definitely depends on the nature of the negotiation. One of the characteristics of the negotiation that Marissa has described is the notion of a recurring negotiation. So this is a long-term negotiation. And so when there's going to be a long-term negotiation or recurring negotiation that's ongoing, relationships are exceptionally important, especially as circumstances can change. And it sounds like in this Marissa circumstances changed in that there was going to be the shortage of cream whereas previously there may not have been a shortage of cream and so that relationship allows for the trust and the sharing of information. Imagine what would have happened had you not had that relationship or hadn't developed that relationship. You would basically be without your cream.

13:45And you would be able to continue your business, but you were able to do so because of that relationship. Now, so for integrative negotiations, that notion of trust really important, but you know, not all negotiations are this way. Some are distributive in nature where it's all about claiming values. So if you're going to buy a car, right, and you're never going to see the person again and you're just trying to get a good deal, where the relationship isn't quite as important as it might be in the situation from Marissa. Yeah.

14:14Well, let me ask about salary negotiation because I think that's a negotiation many of our listeners have struggled with or will have to face multiple times during their career. Yeah. That strikes me as integrative in that you want to have a strong relationship with the people you're going to be working with. You also want to get as much as you can in terms of the number. Do you agree that's integrative or do you think of it differently? So salary negotiations should be integrative.

14:42But most people view them distributive in nature because of the way you just described them. And that is instead of describing it as negotiating the entire job, people describe it as negotiating the salary. The salary is going to be a fixed pie. Your gain is going to be my loss. My gain is going to be your loss. But when we think about job negotiations, it's not just about salary. It can be also about options and location and title.

15:12and responsibility and the ability to move up within a certain period of time and move in expenses. And so when you think about negotiating the job, you're negotiating that package. And that package has the potential to be integrative in nature. But when you're just talking about salary and it's how much money I get, then that's just purely distributive. But I think something you're highlighting though, and that is the notion of distributive negotiations and integrative negotiations, they are embedded in these relationships. And that's what causes a bit of difficulty, right? Because there's this pool and tug between, wow, I want to get as much money as I possibly can, but I also don't want to offend the person who I could be potentially working with for the next 10 to 15 years. And if this goes wrong, I may lose this job. So that's when we talk about interdependent decision making because I can't do this.

16:09by myself, I'm dependent upon the other party. That's when all that anxiety comes up, right? And so we want to think about negotiations more strategically, more analytically, just to make sure that we help to manage that process, reduce that anxiety, and increase that confidence. Yeah. Marissa, thinking about the anxiety that many of us feel in negotiation, for you, what part causes you the most pause or the most concern?

16:35Well, I think a lot of times that I'm like pretty direct with people and I come off sometimes as like aggressive and then other party shuts down, but it's just my nature. It's not what I'm trying to do. And so sometimes I have anxiety around that when I see the other party shutting down because I'm also like an entrepreneur and I'm kind of fast-paced and I see opportunity and so I get really excited and passionate, but not everybody's at that level. So sometimes I come off as a little too much. And I don't have time for like the fluff around it. So sometimes I'm like, if I'm trying to solve a problem or I'm trying to negotiate, I'm like, just tell me the facts, not like all the details. Right. That is such an interesting conundrum of how do I get through this negotiation

17:28as quickly and efficiently as possible while also not damaging the relationship. And that actually makes me think about the research we know around gender negotiations and how women are often seen when they're advocating for themselves as being pushy or bossy or basically they're penalized for being assertive. Any advice around how Marissa can think about taking the right approach to her style in these negotiations?

17:55Actually, Marisa, you were saying that you're very direct, but what I heard you describe previously is that you were actually... utilizing what you call the fluff very effectively, right? So I think your communication style may be very direct, but you really do understand how to build relationships. And so those things don't necessarily have to work against each other. I think you're showing how it can actually work quite well with each other. Now, this notion of being assertive and being direct, that is something that as women, we tend to have to manage because those perceptions and those stereotypes

18:34are ever present it would be fantastic if we lived in a world where that was not the case but it is the case and not everyone will perceive these as negative but some people will which means that we have to manage those perceptions accordingly if we're going to develop those relationships effectively not damage those relationships and ultimately get the type of deal that we would like to get at the end of the day and so when you think about this notion of being very direct I think you have to also step back and say hmm What exactly does that mean? When I say that I am direct, I'm being direct in what way and in what capacity. Does that mean that I'm asking specific questions? Well, that's not a bad thing, right? And most importantly, Marisa, once you have those relationships established, people give you the benefit of the doubt. You have that rapport and they're like, oh, that's just Marisa and she's very direct. And we know that Marisa is that way. Now here's the problem. If you don't have that rapport.

19:36And people don't know who you are, and you don't have that basis, and you come out with guns blazing. Well, you know, that's going to put anybody on their heels to say, you know, hold up, you know, wait a minute. So even though we want to be direct, we have to recognize one, how we're being perceived and manage that process. If you feel as though the other person is on their heels and they're like, whoa, then you probably need to alter your communication style and pause a little bit and see what they're thinking, see what they're reacting as opposed to just kind of going and going and going and going and going. So this is all.

20:12about managing that process. And so thinking about these things, Marissa. a priori in that planning document. If you're direct and you know you're negotiating with someone else who is direct, this should be fine. But if you're direct and you're negotiating with someone who needs to take their time, that relationship is exceptionally important. They want to get to know you a little bit better. It is probably in your best interest not to circumvent that process because that could be detrimental at the negotiation table. So this notion of really preparing for the negotiation, not just about the issue,

20:45but thinking about who that person is on the opposite side of the table as you are also goes into that planning process as well. And to be clear, I am not in any way saying don't be authentic. Don't be yourself. I'm simply saying we have to manage this process. We have to manage it such that we put our best selves forward and people perceive us in the way that we intend and not in a way that could be adverse to the negotiation outcome.

21:14What advice actually do you have for in that moment? So Marisa you very aptly described, you know, you you feel like you're coming on strong You're being direct and you people shut down when Marisa sees that in her negotiation counterparts How do you change tact in that moment? So there are numerous strategies that you can have at your disposal sometimes taking a break and then come back and have a reset Another alternative that can be very helpful is labeling the process. Meaning, you know, did I come off too strong there? If I did, that wasn't my intention. Tell me what you're thinking about what I just said. Disentangling, right? That personality from the content of what has been said and by labeling the process, you can easily do that. That way they're responding to the issue, the content of what you've said and not the manner in which you may have delivered it.

22:10and labeling the process can be a second way that can help you get back on track. Now sometimes, if for some reason you are so emotionally entangled, or you're communicating in such an assertive way that it can derail the effectiveness of the negotiation, then that might be the time that you actually bring in a third party. Are you bringing an agent to talk on your behalf? Because if we can't disentangle the emotion or the assertiveness or the style from the issue, and sometimes when it is our baby, right? When it's our business, that can be difficult, very, very difficult to do, then you may need to bring in someone else who can speak for you to disentangle those styles. So whether, number one, you can step away from the process. You can take a break. Number two, you can label the process. Number three, you may need to bring in someone. So those are just a few tips that you can have at your disposal. That's awesome. I really like your example of labeling the process because I feel like that also adds like a personal touch.

23:14which is the way I like to operate and yeah one of my questions for you today was actually being the owner of a small business all my negotiations feel so personal. So any advice you have on keeping my emotions in check with this level of intimacy? Because sometimes I can be like a little bit of a hothead because it is so personal. My business is an extension. I live here. I work here. It's hard to create the separation. And as much as I like building relationships, sometimes negotiations are challenging and feel very personal.

23:53No, that makes perfect sense. I think, you know, on one hand, communicating emotions can have a positive effect because it can convey how passionate you are about certain issues. And so to get what we want, we have to ask for what we want and people have to understand our preferences. And emotions can be a fantastic way in communicating what is or is not important to you.

24:15On the other hand, communicating emotions can have a negative effect as it can hinder one's ability to make good decisions and can undermine your credibility. And so it's really important to make sure that emotions do not become integral to the decision-making process and the negotiation process, that if they are, they remain tangential. And one way to do that is to distinguish feeling your emotions from conveying your emotions and that's really important and sometimes we can't do that sometimes i don't do that well many people don't do that well but at the negotiation table what you feel does not always have to equate with what you

25:00say right because negotiators are in a constant state of managing emotions and being in touch with your own emotions and perceiving others emotions can be an extremely important part of the negotiation process and if this is something that you know people tend to struggle with I kind of hate to use this term because it's one that's probably Overuse a little bit, but that is be in touch with what emotional intelligence is and the five steps, you know associated with emotional intelligence and it's something that's been studied for a long period of time. People have brought it into the negotiation arena as well. But the notion of self-awareness, self-regulation, self-motivation, empathy and ultimately building great social skills at the negotiation table.

25:48Those are the steps that are involved in proving our emotional intelligence and that can also be a way such that we feel our emotions, but not necessarily convey them. The other thing that I would say is I don't want to make it sound like conveying emotions is always negative. There really is this balance. So for example, some of our research says it's not just about the emotions that you feel naturally, right? But you can actually use emotions strategically at the negotiation table. The emotions in negotiations has been studied quite a bit. And so we know that when we're in a positive mood, then we're more creative.

26:25right? But we know when there's a distributive negotiation, we may need to be a bit more rational, a bit more poker face. And sometimes when we're trying to claim value and we've been at the table for a long period of time, well, sometimes we need to throw a little negative emotion in there. There's so many layers to emotions at the negotiations table that it really should be one of those things that we think about when we're preparing for the negotiation. So again, thinking about this notion of personal, yeah, this is my baby, this is personal.

26:54know what your triggers are, practice how to react to those triggers. If you know that when somebody says this, it's going to make you react in this way, and if that's not the way in which you want to react, you probably need to practice reacting in a way that you would like to react, such that when those triggers come up in the negotiation, you are prepared for them, and you are choosing, you are feeling an emotion, and then you choose whether or not it is in your best interest to convey that emotion.

27:23Actually, I love this idea of familiarizing yourself with your own triggers in the negotiation. And as you were talking, I was thinking, oh, for me, it's when someone insinuates I'm not being fair, because that's something I really pride myself on. So if someone I'm in a negotiation with starts to act as if I'm being unreasonable or disregarding their feelings or thoughts, I get really upset. And you mentioned practicing ahead of time. Any specific tips on how to actually Practice that, especially when we know we get really emotional around those specific issues. So, Amy, what I heard you just tell me is one of the things that you don't want to solely do in a negotiation. What you just described is a soul focus on self and not considering the opposing party. You describe this notion of, you know, well, if someone accuses me of not being fair, well, that's my trigger.

28:18You also have to recognize that fairness is a perception and what you perceive to be fair may not be what the other party perceives to be fair. Fair can be based upon need. It can be based upon precedent, inequality, inequity, things of that nature. So first, when you think about, you know, my trigger is when people say that I'm not being fair, step back from that and say, How might my definition of fairness be different from their definition of fairness? And perhaps that should be incorporated into your process and say, this is something that's really important to me. I define fairness as this. How do you see fairness? Do you see fairness in the same way in which I do? So if you know that's going to be a trigger and it may come along,

29:07design that in your negotiation process upfront. So thinking about those things a priori and addressing them can go a long way to making sure that those triggers don't derail your negotiation process. Right away I can see my preparation for myself can be Instead of getting defensive when someone insinuates I'm not being fair ask a question around what is fairness, right? Exactly. That's fantastic. It goes back to this notion of One of the most important things is to consider the perspective of the opposing party when we prepare for a negotiation One of the reasons that we tend to not ask for what we want or one of the reasons why we tend to negotiate against ourselves is because we only perceive

29:59our perspective. We know how desperate we are, how much we want it. We never consider that the other party may be in a comparable situation. And so thinking about everything that might be your trigger, think about what could also be their trigger as well. So this asymmetry of focus and preparation of negotiations only on ourselves can be to our detriment. But the power comes when you're actually also considering the other person's perspective, their position and why they may have the position that they do. I love that. I want to ask about the revealing of information and sort of how much you share. I tend to be a very open book. It sounds Marissa like maybe you are also very upfront and you talked actually about

30:50strategically using emotion. And I also wonder about strategically using information. How do you decide at what point to reveal your interests or your position to the other party? So first it depends on the type of negotiation you are. You're engaging in. That's number one. So let's just kind of get that diagnostic, you know, over to the side and out of the way and say that, you know, this is the consideration in terms of whether you should or should not. So whether to reveal and what's reveal.

31:17is not as simple as a yes-no decision, but usually depends upon the situation and the type of negotiation that you find yourself in. Now for many negotiators, their initial response or inclination is to reveal as little as possible so as not to be taken advantage of or exploited by the opposing party. Now if we step back and think about that negotiation tactic to reveal as little as possible, it is somewhat counterintuitive to the ultimate goal in the negotiation. If the goal is to get a deal that is favorable to you and your circumstances, you eventually have to ask for it. You eventually have to share the information, which goes the opposite, right? That's completely opposite of keeping things close to your vest. If we don't reveal our preferences and priorities,

32:07we may not get them. So now if we think about why we feel the need to hold our information close to the vest, it usually derives from our lack of trust that we have towards the other party and in turn that lack of trust that they have for us. So one way to build trust is actually by sharing information. And so if you don't have a reason not to trust, then trust and share information. And usually the norm is reciprocity and they will be relief and then they will start sharing. Now just to be clear this is not always the case. There is a Russian proverb that was made famous during the Reagan era and it was called trust but verified.

32:50Right? So now, in that situation, what you do is you use the same tools of sharing information and reciprocity, but you don't share something big. You share something little, and then usually the person will share something little with you. Now, if they didn't get the memo that the norm is reciprocity and I share, you share, I share, you share, then again, now we got to label the process. I just shared something with you.

33:17Can you now share something with me? And then hopefully they share. You share a little bit more. They share a little bit more. You share a little bit more. They share a little bit more. And ultimately, you start understanding people's preferences and priorities. So if you have trust, share information. If you don't have trust, find a way to start building that trust. And maybe you need to have that Russian proverb in the back of your mind. And that is trust, but verify.

33:44What you were just saying I was curious like would it be good in a negotiation just to say the goal out of the gate? Like my goal is X the answer is yes if if You don't have any reason to believe that they're going to exploit you if you don't have any reason that they're going to utilize any information against you if You don't perceive that they would perceive your sharing as weakness then yes share Ask for what you want and ask for it upfront and be direct about it. And most importantly, ask for what you really want, not for what you would be willing to settle for. Good advice. If you think about this, asking for what you want upfront versus asking for what you want at the end of the negotiation. You've wasted a lot of time talking about things that are completely irrelevant to you or you really don't necessarily care about if you think, well, you know, I'll wait and I'll save it.

34:43Think about that for a moment. How much sense does that really make? Because if it's something so important, give yourself time to talk about it. Give yourself time to perhaps build upon it. Think about what would have happened in your former's negotiation had they not told you that they couldn't afford this equipment or something of that nature, right? If they had waited to the very end when you're about to walk out the door saying, well, it really is this.

35:10Would that have been the most effective use of your time that you spent with them? Probably not. So this notion of sharing information is counterintuitive. But if you don't ask, you may not get it, right? Yeah. Well, and even I think about Marissa, you revealing that you are relying on them in order to get the cream that you need to make your product.

35:36Keeping that till the end of the conversation probably would have been counterproductive to the conversation rather than revealing that upfront. Although it does make me also wonder, is there a situation in which revealing your need or revealing what some people might call sort of your desperation might be counterproductive?

35:56Oh, absolutely. Not everyone is going to have your best interest at heart. Some people will perceive that as weakness. You have to know and you have to see, you have to diagnose the negotiation to determine what is or is not appropriate. And sometimes what you may want to do is a strategy. I don't hear people talking about this a whole lot. This is something that was pretty popular a few years back. And that's this notion of a post-settlement settlement. And that just simply means that sometimes the goal is to get a deal. Okay?

36:25you want to get a deal. But sometimes when you get a deal it's not the best deal. But you get a deal and you can always fall back on that deal. That means Marissa, get the contract, sign seal and deliver that contract to make sure that they can't go back on that deal. But if you were to share some information after the deal has been made, maybe to the extent to which you might be desperate, for example, Take the farmers, right? You signed some kind of deal. It was subpar. And even though they said, you know, we can't get you the amount of cream that you wanted. So let's say that you wanted, I don't know, give, what are the units that cream are sold in? Gallons. Okay. Gallons. So it's a typical order that you would like to get 200 gallons a week. Okay. Let's say that you wanted to go to the farmers and you said, you know, um, I'd like to put in my order. I'd like to have 200 gallons this week. And they said, no, I'm sorry. I can only give you 20.

37:21Okay, I'll take that for now. Let's sign, seal and deliver it. Can you give me 20? I can get 20. Got the contract, sure. Put that aside. Now, let's just talk about this for a moment. Tell me why you can only give me 20. Now, the contract is done.

37:36it's sign sealed and delivered. So now they may be willing to share more information with you about their situation and their need for this additional equipment that they may not have been able to share a priori. So sometimes the desperateness or a level of desperateness might be something that we want to share later as opposed to earlier. So to be clear, when I say share information, communicating what you want does not necessarily equate to sharing all of the circumstances that necessitate that preference. Okay. So Ashley, you have been studying and thinking about negotiations for such a long time. You're like in it. Do you find yourself in this like always negotiating mode all the time? Like strategically interacting with people or is it something you can deliberately turn on and off? So I have never been asked this question before.

38:32So I am not usually stumped, but you have stumped me with this one. I will say that I'm not in a perpetual on mode as a negotiator, but I will say that negotiation skills are life skills and they can be beneficial in numerous aspects of our lives outside of a.

39:02deliberate context. I just think that's great. And I think it's so true. So much of what I learned today, I feel like I can apply to so many of my relationships, not just for negotiations, but for just living life. Ashley and Marisa, thank you both so much for joining me for this conversation. I've learned so much from it. And your insights have been really helpful. Thank you. Yes. Thank you. I'm honored.

39:32My pleasure. Thank you for the invitation. For more of Ashley's wisdom, which I personally cannot get enough of, I encourage you to listen to her appearance in our Season 1 episode, The Advice We Get and Give. You might also want to check out the HBR Guide to Negotiating, as well as the many articles on this subject that we've published on hbr.org. Women at Work's editorial and production team is Amanda Cursey, Maureen Hope, Adam Buckholz, Tina Toby-Matt, Erica Truxler and Rob Eckhart. Robin Moore composed this theme music. Email us at women at work at hbr.org. I'm Amy Gallo. Thanks for listening.