Women at Work - The Essentials: Retaining Talent

0:00When I look back on my career, I had one hired potential employee come to me. He had worked for me for about two years and he came to me and he said, I believe in I'm going to Facebook. And I remember at the time like he had such a cool job. I thought he like was super happy and he sort of showed up and he was like, I got this job and moving to California. And I was a new like supervisor and I did nothing. I was surprised by it.

0:25And I just let him go. I mean, I look back on that moment. I'm like, what was I thinking? I didn't call HR. I didn't even look at what was at my disposal. I see it. I understand. If you're not necessarily equipped with the tools as a manager or how to have those conversations, it's tricky. It's hard. You don't know what to say. You don't know where to go. You're listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. I'm Amy Gallo. The two women you just heard are here to talk with me about retaining employees.

0:59We'll discuss tactics you can use, which conversations to have and incentives to offer to help the people you manage feel valued and like they have a future on your team and at your organization. Since losing that high potential, Kate Tyler pushed herself to figure out what employees are actually feeling and motivated by. She hasn't lost anyone in four years. In her role managing Shell's oil and gas business in Argentina, she leads a team of 10.

1:26and she tries to keep a regular eye on whether the engineers on her team feel engaged or not. Rachel Spivey has made retaining and developing talent her full-time job. A few years ago, Rachel and a colleague of hers started Google's Stay and Thrive team, which supports Black, Latinx, and Indigenous employees who are thinking about leaving. The team also supports managers by sharing with them data on engagement and attrition trends across the company.

1:54There's a lot we can all learn from both Kate and Rachel's experiences and expertise. I want to start with you. You manage 10 employees. How often are you thinking about whether they'll leave or not? In this climate, I'm actually thinking about it all the time. My team of 10 is 50% in North America, in the US and Canada, and then 50% here in Argentina.

2:21And particularly the recovery post-pandemic a bit, if I can say that, I guess. There is a lot of opportunities, I would say, for a lot of staff and people I think are really questioning whether or not they want to stay at their existing employer. I think they wrote it out through the pandemic, but now...

2:38They're sort of saying like is this for me? Do I want to be here? And so for some people I think it's I've spent all this time now with my family all the time Do I really want to return to the office? Which we are here or is for others that are saying I want to be part of the energy industry And you know the business that I support is our traditional or you could call it older business models So people are questioning, you know whether or not they see a future here. Yeah, that makes sense in Rachel, you're an expert in getting employees to stay or actually figuring out what's preventing them from staying or tempting them to leave. What's one tool or tactic that you think managers are underutilizing at this moment? Yeah, I think people underestimate the value of career progression. And what I recommend is that managers work with employees to co-create a holistic career path. And again, it's not just work. It's also thinking about personal.

3:33work with your employees to create something that aligns with their goals, their career goals as well as their personal goals. And I think just creating that path really helps employees clear up and make sure that they know what their future looks like at the company. So when another company comes to them, they're not as tempted to take that offer because they know where they stand at their current company. Right. Well, and it sounds like you're also saying, can I picture doing this or doing something similar?

4:01over a certain time period, right, in terms of the actual progression in your career? Yes, or is it a stepping stone to get where I actually want? So sometimes when we advise clients, that's employees. We look at employees as our clients.

4:15we advise them to think of, even if this isn't going to be the end all be all for your career, is this a stepping stone that's going to help you get to that place? And so helping them to think about it more broadly and holistically. Yeah. Kate, are those questions around career path, career development? Are those questions you regularly get from the people you manage? Absolutely. I mean, like I said before, the fact that we are sort of the traditional business of Shell and Shell's trying to transition you know to more cleaner energy sources. I'm having those questions all the time because I will say actually even in our traditional businesses people want to go and work in hydrogen or wind or solar businesses that we've started and they're still a very small part of our company. So figuring out the steps Rachel as you say to get there I think is something that I well

5:02I try to do. I don't know if I'm perfect at it because it's many steps, actually. And I like how you said that, Rachel. I'm curious, what do you guys do specifically to support managers in that role of career development? Because we have systems in place, but sometimes they feel very forced. And so for me, I take a more personal tactic where I'm talking about it more frequently. But I'm curious just on how Google manages this and what you guys give to managers to support them.

5:30We do have formal mechanisms and then sometimes I personally as a manager myself I adapt them to what feels comfortable for me and so that's what I encourage you to do. So we have encouraged touchpoints around time frames when we are supposed to touch faces with employees around career development and they do give us a template. So like fill out this box here, fill out this box here.

5:53I instead turned it into a conversational guide, which really helps me lean in, build relationship and rapport, and also better understand what's happening holistically in that employee's life. So are you trying to buy a car? Are you trying to buy a house? Are you trying to start a family? Those key things, that can help me also understand where they want to go and drive that piece.

6:18take what your employer gives you, but then also customize it to a way that it feels comfortable for you to be able to action on a day to day basis with your employees. Is that helpful, Kate?

6:28Yeah, it is. It's also really interesting. Like one of the other sort of challenges that I have here in Argentina is one of the major employee value propositions of why people choose to work for Shell is because it's an international company. So there's this hope or desire by almost all employees here of being able to take an international assignment. And that specifically also in the post pandemic world is ever ever shrinking because we've proved we can do it virtually.

6:56And so finding a balance between those stepping stones when that is sort of one of the major goals can be really challenging, in my view. I don't know if you have any advice, either of you. Well, I wonder, Rachel, when things are shifting and it's not clear what you'll be able to offer employees in the future in two years, five years, how do you have those conversations in a way that still feel authentic, honest?

7:23and paint a picture for the person where they can see themselves at the company in that time period. One of the things that we try and do is embrace the moment. And so to your point about, you know, we also have highly sought after international rotation programs that had to be shut down.

7:41but in the hybrid work model that means you can technically work from anywhere so if you want to you know work from a different location you could do that and kind of make your own rotational program and so What I just always recommend is being transparent about what's in your control was not in your control and then help them optimize for where we are in the moment. So as much as it's daunting because we're on a new horizon, I also want to stay encouraged to think that it's exciting that we get to shape this together. Yeah. Well, and I love what you said about.

8:13be clear about what's in your control and what's not. And I think Kate, as I think about you having to have these conversations with people who think, well, I took this job because someday I wanted to work in France or someday I wanted to work in the Middle East, right? To be able to say, I can't guarantee that. I hear that it is an important thing to you. I'm going to keep that in mind as we continue to navigate this uncertain future. I know what matters to you and you're a valuable employee and I'm going to do my best to give you those things.

8:43when it's in my control. Exactly. That said, I think we're all dealing with employees who are disappointed that things didn't work out the way they wanted or that there's a policy, for example, to come back to the office when they wanted to continue to work remotely. Rachel, in your experience, when employees are really upset about a specific thing and that's what's sort of driving their desire to go somewhere else, how do you handle that? Do you try to make exceptions to policies or rules. How much do you individualize these retention plans that you have for folks? Yeah, so I really listened to them and understand what's underneath of it. Right. I don't make an assumption about what that is. So back even when we were in the office, someone, they wanted to move to a different location and it wasn't possible for their role. And a lot of people could have assumed, well, they just, I thought they didn't like the commute.

9:40You know, they don't like the commute. They don't want to go back and forth. But then when we asked the employee and we said, what is it really underneath this? They said that, hey, in this area, there are no other black children for my child to play with. And that is critical for me raising children. And so I want to be in an area that is more diverse.

9:59And when they, meaning their manager, understood the value proposition better, we were better able to adapt and make some better decisions based on the information. So a lot of times I try and, number one, dig underneath. If we can make some exceptions, we do try and too. If we can't, we can also try and, within our realm, provide a timeframe for when that will happen. So for example, maybe you can't move.

10:24right now but we do see a time horizon within a year for you to be able to move and then the decision is really up to them. They might decide that they want to leave or they might say you know what actually I do love the work that I do I love my manager I can wait the year to make that move and so I think it's also just digging under them.

10:43in negotiation terms, we call that their interests, right? So they may say, I want a higher salary, I want to work in a specific location, I want to work from home, but then their interests are, but why? Why is that? What's driving that decision? And trying to understand that as a manager can really give you a lot of information that you can then respond to. Kate, you recently asked a few of your team members, a really straightforward, simple question. What would cause you to take a job with another company tomorrow? I did. I mean, full disclosure, I use this podcast as sort of a buffer, right? Yeah, I did. I did. I asked them, you know, I'm doing this podcast about retention. I'm curious on what it would take you to move to another company. And actually, when I started asking people this question, I found actually it opened up deeper conversations than I had expected.

11:38Specifically, and like what I was amazed by is that if it's financial, people have a number in their head. Two of my employees were like 20%, the other one was like 50%. So they were very specific, which means that, you know, it tells me something that they clearly thought about it. And then a few actually said that it would have to be that they felt that their day to day was more aligned with the company strategy, which I also found quite interesting because I've mentioned before, I've been, you know, our traditional business. And so when our company is talking about what we're doing in the future and our growth businesses, it can be difficult on a day to day to produce oil and gas. So what did you take away from those conversations? What do you want to do differently?

12:22Specifically, I realized that their intrinsic motivations are just different and I think all employees are in different places. I actually just recently read an article in the New York Times about the love language of business. I don't know if any of you guys read that. Oh, I saw that too. Yeah, yep.

12:37For our listeners who haven't read that article, it's about as an employee, what's your love language that's going to get you to stay, right? How do you feel valued and respected in your organization? And it very much encouraged managers to have these sorts of conversations and to figure out what exactly is going to make your employees stick around. And when I read that, I immediately wanted my team to do it because it's how you show recognition. So I just I've recognized that I actually think that I need to approach.

13:06my staff in a different way and also reward potentially in a different way. So those that are saying monetary right like we have discretionary bonuses that we can give out like maybe I should be skewing more towards that but then for those that said the day-to-day feeling like it's aligned with company strategy maybe Rachel to your point it's having deeper conversations around career steps and what needs to happen for them to make sure that they stay at shell.

13:29A quick tactical tip, I put that at the top of my 101 docs for all of my reports. So at the very top, I put like how they like to be rewarded and At my company, you can be rewarded monetarily in two different ways. I also specify which way do you want it. And that is a constant reminder. And so if they do something great, I can just quickly go back to the top of that one-in-one doc and reference. This is how this person likes to be recognized. Right. So that's the doc. You keep your agenda for your one-on-ones and your notes. And that's so smart. I love that. That's amazing. Rachel, did you just come out and ask them between these two ways? Awesome.

14:08Yes, I'm very transparent and very direct, very East Coast. So actually, let me ask you that, Rachel, because this this exercise that Kate did, you know, using the podcast as an excuse, you know, what would cause you to take a job with another company tomorrow? Do you feel like people should be just coming out and asking those sorts of questions? Yes.

14:30So asking direct questions to direct employees can be uncomfortable, but it can save you so many surprises down the line. So I'm a victim of it too. I remember about two years ago, I lost an employee by surprise.

14:45And I was shocked. This is my job. How did I not realize that she was looking somewhere else? And so that really helped me remember that I need to be doing this practice thoroughly, especially within my own organization. The more you do it and the more hygiene you have around it, the more comfortable you get, the better results you have. And again, you want to avoid those big surprises down the line.

15:07Many managers are concerned right now about retaining employees from underrepresented groups. What advice do you have about targeting your efforts to keep people for specific groups or populations?

15:20Yes, I think it goes back to know your audience know what they want. What are their drivers? What's going to keep them here? What's going to cause them to leave and then also start to make an action plan based off of that. So I find that in our past we got caught up on just understanding the issue and not actually solving it and so Take the time to actually solve the issue and you can still be transparent about hey This is what I can do. This is what's in my control. This is what's outside of my control and make good on those promises. Over time, you will see that that builds trust and credibility. And that will also help people stay longer to see if you're continuing to make good on those promises that you committed to them at the beginning. So Rachel, you work for Google, which is heavy data analytics. So I think I read somewhere that Google does intermittent.

16:13like Salesforce pulse checks. I would love to understand like how you collect that aggregate big data and then realize these kinds of things because I think that's something that just fascinates me. Like Shell does, you know, an annual pulse in our annual survey and then it's up to the manager to do intermittent pulses. So curious how Google manages that.

16:35Sure. And I would just also say that we are not the end all be all. We still have lots of ways that we need to learn and grow. And we just introduced the pulse checks not too long ago. So don't worry if you haven't started yet. That's never too late. And so with those pulse checks, we do have a central team that looks at the data, sees how we're trending. And then also year over year or quarter over quarter, whatever regularity that you're doing the pulse just just checking what's trending, what's up, what are some of the top headlines or the higher scoring items or some of the lower scoring items. How does that change over time? And we also use the pulse checks to be able to adapt in the in the moment. So for example, hybrid approach to work.

17:18How are you liking working from home? How are you liking your equipment now that we're going back to the office? Are you excited to go back to the office? What are your some of your concerns? And so that's the benefit of a pulse check is to be able to adapt quickly and get a pulse of the organization more easily but I am a big proponent of word of mouth and keeping your ear to the street and so even without that, and even within my team, you can start to see trends before they pop up in the data because we're speaking to employees regularly, we're regularly engaging them. And so even without a big data system, if you speak to the people and use a grassroots approach, you can probably get to some of that data and information as well. Yeah, cool. And Rachel, how do you make sure that what you're hearing is not an outlier or the squeaky wheel, right? Yes.

18:11I personally feel Amy every voice counts and it's often a bellwether of what's happening more broadly whether people chose to speak out or not and so I really value every single Googlers voice now where we do look at his trends for example if we see three or more people in the same team say that thing then we can say hey that seems like a bigger, broader problem. But the way I break it down, Amy, is I have a team of 30 people now. And so if I get that, everyone's mad. Okay. Well, how many people are mad? Well, actually, it's five. Okay. So why are those people upset? Like, why do they want to leave? And then if I get to the heart of it, two might be because they're worried about career development. Two might be because of something else. And then I just try and

19:01just chop down the problem, but still validating. And so when I go back to that person who was concerned about career development, I can say, this is what this means for your career. I know that it could be upsetting, but this is what it means. This is what we're planning. And so I think just taking that approach really helps me both understand the size and the complexity of the issues and what are challenges for individual employees. And then you can solve that way. Yeah, I love that.

19:29Kate, you had another question for Rachel. Yeah, there's obviously things that managers disposal in order to get people to stay, right? There's retention bonuses you could give out, you know, you could do flexible work schedules or whatever that is. But oftentimes what I find is in a big company implementing those mechanisms can be long or there's a big process or it's not quick enough because in my experience if an employee is thinking of leaving they've been thinking about this for months this is not like a woke up on a Tuesday and I'm going to tell my boss that I'm considering going and so how do you then quickly enough implement something that could actually retain them when you also work in a big company that has policy and procedures that can oftentimes seem like

20:15red tape in order to actually have the nimbleness or the flexibility that you need as a manager in the moment. Yeah, so one thing I would be is transparent about the process. So I find that even being transparent about the process And this could look like, I have to go to this person and then this person and then this person and then this person to get an answer. Just being open about that, it alleviates some anxiety because you're also bringing them along the journey versus if you just give a general answer of, let me get back to you.

20:48That could mean so many different things. And while that person is thinking about their next step and leaving that ambiguity, they could choose to leave. So I think just being transparent and then saying, okay, I'm at step two, I'm at person three, I'm at person four, giving them updates along the way. The other thing I think about is just rallying with your peers. And so I use and pull on a lot of managers, other managers in my sphere of influence that I can reach out to and say, hey, I need help with this. Can you help me, my employee?

21:18wants to get over here. Do you have any roles open? Can you help here? And so work within your sphere of influence to also help accelerate things. The last thing I would say in that piece is also give feedback to your company. You have a voice too. You as a manager, your voice should be heard and your voice should be recognized. So give feedback to your company and say, Hey, I've lost three employees because of these three things over the last year.

21:46I think this is where we need to make a change and say it over and over again until you start to see some of that. And so we are definitely a bigger, larger company now too. We have lots of steps, but I think the more that you realize that you also have some autonomy in that or two, making sure that the organization can be flexed long term, I think that that will help as well.

22:07I love the steps, like of the, I need to talk to this person and this person and then they need to talk to HR. And this one, like I actually really love that because I don't know if I deployed that enough because I do know those steps. Well, and I can actually hear in my head, so many people I know who've gone to their boss and asked for something because they want to stay or they've asked for a counter offer or they've asked, you know, any of those things just that, you know, where do things stand while I'm waiting to hear back.

22:36Well, I'm waiting to hear it back. There's just a lot of room in that limbo to think and rethink what you want. But if you know, oh, we're on step two of four steps, and so far things are looking good, it can be a little more encouraging. Yes. And your point, Rachel, about turning to your fellow managers, I think that the other element of that, that might be helpful also if you do work in a large bureaucratic organization, is that they might have advice about how they've been able to get things either more quickly or what they've been able to offer, what's been in their immediate area of control that they've been able to do. Because there's things that are possible that we didn't know were possible, but someone else said, well, this is what I did last month when my best employee was was about to walk. Yeah. And a big piece of that, and I didn't even cover it, which is just say, I want you to stay. You mean something to me.

23:31I value you. I have a plan and a career path for you here. Start there. That is one of the biggest, most monumental things you can do. We also conduct exit interviews. And a lot of times in exit interviews, sometimes employees will say, this is the first time anyone's asked me why I was leaving or why they wanted them to stay. And so I think even just starting out with the fact that you matter, I want you here.

24:01I want you to stay. And this is what I'm going to do about it. That is a key message to drive home. Yeah. Recruiters at other companies are driving some really core messages to your employees. Yeah. It's a competition. So I think about what is the script that other recruiters are using at other companies to get my employees? And how can I reframe that to keep them here? Right. Well, because they're selling, right? They're selling a current job and a future job to your employee. When you're managing, you're not thinking about selling, you're thinking about managing, but having that frame of mind, which I think Rachel is sort of what you and your group do, is how do we actually convince employees that this is the right place for them, assuming it is? Yeah, exactly. I have a question for both of you. You both work at large companies.

24:54And I'm sure many of our listeners work at smaller mid-sized companies and saying, my place is not Google. My place is not Shell. I do not have these resources. Like, what can I do to retain people if I can't offer them more money or a career path that involves living in another country or even, you know, a promotion? Like, some of these smaller organizations, there's nowhere to move up. Any thoughts on what might work for those folks who have less at their hands?

25:22So I would say that the good news is my team started small, started with me and one other person. So the reality is we did not start big. It was not this grand vision of what we were going to do or accomplish, but we were still able to make impact. So the first lesson is you can make impact even with the small or the few resources that you do have. And I think a critical juncture is managers. Managers are really key to an employee's experience. And that is, again, cultivating a relationship. And even if you don't have an opportunity to provide them, for example, promotion, maybe you can give them great projects. Maybe you can give them that recognition that they want. There are so many things at a manager's disposal. And I really always encourage managers with this simple fact. So usually we work with an employee for one average of 100 days.

26:16And we are able to see 86% retention rate with that. So this is after someone's already thinking about leaving. They have one foot off the door. We work with them for 100 days, 86% stay. What can you drive if you work with that person every single day?

26:32We only have 100 days. But what kind of impact can you make with that span that you work with that employee? And so I do encourage managers that you are the critical piece of the puzzle. And so don't underestimate your value or the impact you can make. I think that was beautifully said, Rachel. You know, even though I work in a major company, we've gone through the highest of highs of oil prices as it is right now. We've gone through the lowest of lows when it was in COVID.

26:59And quite frankly, a lot of our resources in the HR department have been cut. And so I've found for myself, for me to be as most effective as I possibly can, is to show up in the spaces that no longer exist. And so it's talking to employees all the time and making sure that they feel that they're enjoying the work that they're doing, that they find purpose in it, that they are motivated to come to work. And all of those things, at least in my view, have always worked better than getting to a point where you're at a situation where the employee is now showing up at your door and saying, I got a 20% higher job offer at this other place and you don't have any now strings to pull at all. I think it's in the it's in the micro engagements in the day to day and the constant conversations that you have. Yeah. I want to ask about money because there is this idea that it's the end all be all for people and if they leave they're leaving because they got that 20%.

27:53Raise or that 50% raise and your experience is that actually true? How much does money matter? I think that there's always a price My view I think that there will always be a price that someone will jump but more personally if you're in the ballpark of like I would say like 20 to 50% in my experience There's other reasons underlying that and the money is a convenient excuse to not have to actually tell you the truth of sort of what has been happening for the last several months that they're choosing to leave. And I would say counter offers are often the first time that someone feels seen or recognized. And a lot of times employees aren't even thinking about comp until another company comes and offers them more. And so I think that the micro engagements, I love that.

28:41Kate, the more you can make sure that your employee feels seen and recognized, the money is not as big of an attractor. And so the more you can do that, I think the better. There is a piece of money, and it's not just about dollars and cents, though, too. It's about lifestyle changes. A lot of the people we work with and the employees we speak to, they say, I want to buy a house and I can't do it on the salary.

29:05and helping contextualize it and humanize the elements of the money can really help the employers and especially the manager see the value in giving them more. And maybe it's like, okay, we can help with this down payment or maybe you can't, but at least being transparent about that and letting them feel seen and heard. Yeah. There's always a reason behind the dollar number, right? Like the actual figure. And the reason might be I just don't feel valued.

29:34I hear what my college friends are making and it's so much more and that makes me feel under that. There's all those different reasons. I do want to ask about retention bonuses and counter offers because I've heard more about retention bonuses in the last few months than I ever heard before. And I'm curious if this is playing a role in your efforts to convince people to stay, Rachel.

29:58Absolutely. That's the short answer. Cash is king still. And so in particular in the tech sector, there's these really high value unicorn startups that are popping up that are able to offer our employees lots and lots of money. And so I think in combination with inflation. So I think the conversation in relation to inflation makes comp even more important. So if you haven't addressed that question that employees might have around, hey, everything around me is going up. The prices of everything around me is going up. What are we doing to stay competitive? I think that's the real heart of it. But to your point, yeah, cash is king.

30:43And proactive is better. So the more you can get ahead and offer them proactive bonuses. So before they're thinking about leaving and come to you with a counter offer, if you, for example, look at your top employees and you decide to give them a proactive bonus, that helps yield off some of the counter offers that might come later. Even still, we've still found counter offers as an effective tool. We still see people stay. I know a lot of people there's mixed.

31:12Reviews about counter offers will they only stay for a little bit a lot of times Googlers come to us and say I don't want to leave Google But I got so much more money and I want to again start a family whatever that thing is for them So what I've got this money so what? And so if you can help give them that so what and stay at the place where they really want to stay Then it's just it's a perfect marriage. I do use the the proactive bonuses that we have at our disposal pretty pretty extensively. Oftentimes what I'm finding and there's several things that they need to stay and there's just a really slow reaction. I just really wish that there wasn't all this red tape in order to actually just offer the bonuses or do a paid adjustment or to you know do the things that you need to monetarily. Right. So this is clearly a topic you both think about quite a bit and I'm curious

32:07has thinking about it changed the way you think about your own retention at the company? For me, and this is what I also advise from my clients, I'm purpose driven. Where am I aligned? Where is my purpose? Where am I making impact? And I feel like all of those are in line at this current company. It is also a huge part of my financial future. And so being at this company for 12 years has led and opened up so many doors for me financially that i never would have thought of and it is a part of my retirement plan i'll be very frank so for any company to come to me with another offer you have to go big because there's always a number yeah i've seen the value i know what my path looks like i can see a finish line and

33:04Right now I'm happy on my path to get there. So I think it does make me reflect and I think it also it also encouraged me to check in with my employees because it is confusing, especially if someone gets a new exciting offer at another company. What does this mean for me? Should I be leaving? Should I be trying to get an offer? And you always have to do that constant check in and reground yourself. And for me, it's that purpose. It's like my financial goals where I want to get in my personal and professional life.

33:34That's great. Kate, how about you? Yeah, I mean I will say I have spent so much more time over the last two years really reflecting on what really matters to me, how I want to spend my time. I'm also very purpose-driven. Con for me is there, but to me it's whether or not I feel like I'm making a difference in the world or for those around me that I'm working with. And so I think It's been a rough go, I will say in the oil and gas industry over the last the last two years. And so I absolutely have thought about it. But I see a huge role that I can play here now also being in Argentina and supporting many of the staff here. Thank you both. This has been such an enjoyable conversation. And I think it's going to be so useful for so many people. So thank you. Thanks. Thank you. Women at Works editorial and production team is Amanda Cursey, Maureen Hoek,

34:35Tina Toby Mack, Erica Truxler, and Ian Fox. This episode is part of our series, The Essentials. In it, we bring together management experts and women working in essential industries in order to cover the fundamentals and nuances of key career skills. Scroll through the show's feed to find other Essentials episodes. You'll see ones on negotiating strategically, being productive, managing stress, and giving feedback. Plus, more are on the way.

35:04And if you want to go deeper on the topic of retaining employees and create a plan to practice what you've learned, check out Harvard Manage Mentor. It's an online self-directed learning and skill building resource. Visit hbr.org slash Harvard Manage Mentor to see all the different skills the program can help you build, broaden, and refresh. I'm Amy Gallo. Thanks for listening. Email us anytime at womenatworkathbr.org.