Women at Work - The Essentials: Setting and Maintaining Boundaries

0:03You're listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. I'm Amy Gallo. In this series, The Essentials, Amy B and I cover key career skills by bringing together experts on those skills and audience members of ours who are looking to get better at them. The thing we like about grounding these episodes in the specifics of individual women's experiences is how it makes management principles less theoretical and practical advice more realistic.

0:37not only for that one woman participating in the conversation, but also for listeners in all sorts of industries. Ashley Chafetz works as a senior analyst for the U.S. Department of Agriculture, leaving large research projects, mainly focused on school meals. The job is both flexible and structured, flexible in ways that she'll explain in a bit, structured in that she has to set and stick to a schedule. She signs on and off the same times nearly every day.

1:07And because it's a federal job, she's not allowed to have government email or any other work messages or materials on her personal devices. Ashley's life is so different from mine, where the distinctions between my work and my personal time are very fluid. Because I run my own business, I don't have a boss who's telling me what I can and can't do, when I need to be at work or in a meeting, and when I can take care of personal stuff.

1:37You know, I'm looking at my calendar right now for last Thursday and I attended two meetings in the morning after going to the gym. Then I went actually for a physical therapy appointment and left from that straight to have coffee with a former colleague. Then I came back to my desk and finished up a article that I was writing and had one other meeting before I signed off for the day.

2:03And to be fair, when I say I signed off for the day, it meant I closed my laptop, but I probably came back to it later that night. And having this flexibility means that I end up trying to check things off my to-do list sometimes on a Saturday or Sunday. I never liked it when I had to be somewhere at a certain time for an extended period of time. I was always someone who wanted to mix things up during the day.

2:30even if it means I have to set boundaries, and I know I would rebel against sort of rigid structure. How I prefer to approach my work differs from how Ashley does, which likely differs from how you do. Boundaries help us achieve those preferences and ultimately be engaged and productive and feel less stressed. Boundaries themselves actually exist on a spectrum. As our guest expert, executive coach Melody Wilding explains, on one end have very porous boundaries, which is you allow anything to happen to you. You are a total pushover. On the other end of the spectrum, you have very rigid boundaries, which is where it's like having a brick wall. You don't allow anyone in, but nothing gets out either. And so you want to land in that healthy middle, something that lets the right things in but keeps the things you don't want out.

3:27Ashley's already set several boundaries that we can learn from, but she wants to draw even clearer lines. Melody's here to think up some additional actions that Ashley and you and me can take when it comes to communicating new limits with people and holding the line when they test them. Ashley, I want to start with you. What is a boundary you're struggling with right now? Okay, so I need to say first off that any views and opinions that I express herein are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of the USDA, the Food to Nutrition Service, or the United States. Fair enough. Appropriate disclaimer for a federal employee. Go ahead. I would say like the biggest boundary that I'm coming up against lately is my family. They're wonderful humans, but in an attempt to

4:25reclaim my time, I have longer days, four days a week, and then a short day on Fridays. So that means that I start at 7am. And my toddler and my partner and my two dogs are all at home and all very awake and moving.

4:44Well, I am starting my workday and that's a real challenge. Yeah. You know, I think that the start of the workday can be kind of soft in that you're, you know, going through your emails while you're drinking your coffee and all that. But I have a lot of deep thinking work that I'm doing right now. Yeah. Well, and it's not like, actually, you leave at 6.45 and go to an office, right? Correct.

5:10I am not going anywhere. I just go into a different room in my house. And in the pre-pandemic era, I did have an early schedule, but I also left. And I also didn't have a toddler yet. I didn't have any children yet. And so the schedule has offered me a lot of freedom, but also having everybody around can be a real challenge. That said, starting later offers up its own challenges. Say more, what do you mean? Well, for a while, I was starting at 8am. My toddler usually leaves the house with my partner who does the commute with him. They usually leave around eight. So I was still around for that morning part, but I still had to like

6:04physically move my body away from everybody else to get started. And then I ended up working later, which meant that it was harder to do things like get dinner started. Yeah. Well, and what's interesting about that is that in setting a boundary, like trying to do a four and a half day work week, you're also coming up against other boundaries that you need to negotiate and set. I personally find that to be the case most often. And I'm curious, Melody, do you see that with your clients and in your work that boundaries just create more need for more boundaries? Yes. And even if it's not a need for more boundaries, it's communicating those to the people around us. So yes, I see this often, especially as work and life are now so intertwined, you can't separate them that inevitably one affects the other. And many times, actually, I know this is not.

7:02necessarily the case for you, which is great. But for many people that I work with, boundaries are not something that is talked about or that are clearly defined. So it can be really hard and very ambiguous to know what type of limits are okay to set, what is off limits. And I think that leads to a big fear of consequences because Setting boundaries isn't always risk-free. Whether that's on the professional side, you may be punished or ostracized as a result, or it's on the family side, not feeling available, missing out on those moments. So it's a tough balance. Yeah. And I have to say, as someone who writes and talks about conflict and difficult conversations, I think

7:47we often think setting boundaries, we perceive it as a conflict, right? I want something that other person wants something else. I want to work, you know, within certain hours, my boss wants me to be fully committed to be available all the time or I need a quiet space to work and my toddler wants to sit next to me or my dog wants to be on my lap, right? Whatever it is, I think we perceive it as a potential conflict and because we're hardwired to avoid conflicts because we want things to go smoothly and have harmony with people. I think we oftentimes hesitate to set those boundaries as well. Ashley, I want to go back to your starting at seven schedule because it sounds like that's relatively new. What motivated the renegotiation of that schedule and how did you go about setting that boundary? Yeah, so...

8:35Most federal employees have to declare what their schedule is even though there is quite a bit of flexibility in terms of like your start time and your end time. And also how you organize the 80 hours within your pay period. So there are basically three different ways that federal employees do this. One, you work an eight hour day every single day. Two, you work nine hours a day and one eight hour day.

9:02three, nine hours a day and two half days. Or four, 10 hours a day, four days a week. The last one I would say is pretty rare because I think 10 hours of work is a really long day, especially because we have to build in another half hour as a lunch period. So I was finding last fall that my schedule is creeping all over the place, especially in the evening. And that was actually really hard for me. And I'm not as good of a thinker in the afternoon as I am in the morning. And so I chatted with my partner about my desire to start earlier because he also has to be on board with that because he takes on more of

9:47you know, making sure my kid gets fed and making sure our kid, you know, has his shoes on. And so he also had to be on with taking on more of the morning stuff. And so right now I am basically in a trial period for it, which means I'm in like my fourth week of this. And I'm really enjoying it. It also gives me like a bit of extra time on my case on Fridays.

10:13to have for myself that does not involve the rest of my family, because I could have also changed the time to be 7 a.m. and get off at 3.30. But I chose it to be 7 a.m. and get off at 4.30 with the half days on Fridays so that that way I can also reclaim some of my own time, which is...

10:31a different challenge. Yeah, that's another boundary. Totally. How do we set boundaries with work? How do we set boundaries between work and family, but then how do we set boundaries with all of that so that we have time for ourselves? Yeah, and I would say that my supervisor is really supportive of all the different schedules and different conflicts that each of us have. That's fantastic. And so that also makes you know, trying something new really possible because she's not going to push back on that either. Was there any negotiation with her at all around the new schedule? No. I mean, basically those types, all those different types that I described previously are available to most government employees. And so changing to having a longer day and having a half day off is like it's written as an option when we have to declare our schedule. So

11:26When I told her what I was going to try out, she was very supportive. How had she shown you previously that she would be supportive of those different schedule options? I mean, we are in meetings a lot together with me and other people that she supervises. And then there are some people that she supervises who also supervise other people, though I don't. And so you also get to absorb people's reactions to different changes. And so you kind of know if your supervisor will be supportive of things that you're presenting, especially when they are within reason. You know, I wasn't asking for anything too wild there. Yeah. Melody, is that a big concern for people you work with that their supervisor is not going to be supportive or there's a boundary they need to set and they just know they're going to get pushed back?

12:23Absolutely, Amy. I would say that's the number one concern people have is, what is my boss going to think? How do I handle it if they push back? And what do you tell them when they express that concern? Well, I think what Ashley did is really smart, is that she read the room. She read the environment first. And again, what you have going for you, Ashley, is that there is more structure and rules around this, whereas in most workplaces, unfortunately, there is not.

12:50But first you have to understand the cultural environment that you're operating in. How do people respond when others set limits? What example is your boss modeling when it comes to their own work-life balance and their own boundaries? And I would say that when I'm coaching people around this, if you can present your boundary as an experiment, or a test, let's try this for 30 days and see how it goes. And we can evaluate at that point that can mitigate some of the apprehension your boss may have. Yeah, I love that. We've talked about that before on different episodes is just if you sort of put out there, let's just try it for four weeks, six weeks. And oftentimes once you're sort of doing it, then it becomes much more acceptable, even if it's not part of the norm already.

13:43You know, Melody, I'm thinking about, it's been a while since I've had a traditional full-time job with a boss who I had to ask for things, but my approach when I did was always to, first of all, knock it out of the park, like in the first six months of the job, give it my all, and then just ask. If I wanted something, just ask, and the worst they could say was no. But I'm thinking about folks, especially when they're new to a job, and they haven't yet sort of laid the foundation that they're valuable.

14:12critical employee and they don't know what the norms are or they haven't had the opportunity to read the room. I know you wrote an article for HBR how to set healthy boundaries when starting a new job. Any advice for folks who don't have that opportunity to read the room?

14:29Yeah, and I wrote this article because what I see is so many people are. Eager when they get a new job that they over commit and they overextend themselves and then they've set a precedent that that's the level that they're going to perform. Always and that's really hard to sustain. So that's exactly why I wrote this article and one of the key pieces of insight that I would say is most critical when you are starting a new role is to upfront.

14:57have those conversations with your manager about how you work with one another. And that includes understanding your boss's preferences around things like response times to messages, even things like how do they like to receive feedback? If conflict comes up, how are we going to handle that? Because those are all different types of boundaries that we often don't think of as limits we have to discuss. But even things like, What's the standard around here around blocking time off my calendar if I want to do focused work? Ask your boss these questions and then you can negotiate from there But at least you're not coming in aggressively saying this is how it has to be. It's more of a dialogue. Yeah, what I like about that especially is that you're Sort of catching your boss at a great time because they want you

15:52to have a really good onboarding experience, right? They want to set you up for success. They want to keep you. So asking them these questions early on might, you might get the best possible answer in that moment. It's like catching someone in a good mood. That and I really want to encourage everyone to reframe boundaries that they help you be at your best. And your boundaries can also serve other people around you. Melody, can you just say a little bit more about how your boundaries benefit others because I think that's an important point we don't think about. Yeah, and so I have a lot of clients that get frustrated when either their boss or a peer sends them things very last minute and they need to discuss it on a meeting at 12 and they're getting a document at 11.55 and how am I supposed to review this in that time frame? So if you can approach that person and say, hey, I would like to make a kind request that going forward

16:52If you could send this to me 24 hours in advance, that will mean that our live conversation time can be much more efficient and useful because I'll be able to be informed. So if you can articulate how your boundary is actually in service of the other person reaching their goals, that can give you a chance of it being better received. Oh, I love that. I feel like.

17:17providing the reason for the boundary is something I don't think so much about. You know, because you're like, well, it's not interesting to someone else to say that I need to take my kid to swim class or whatever it might be. But also, that's a real thing. Yeah. Well, and I think the swim class example, so we often think, well, they don't need to know or they're not interested. But when I think about when I'm asked to do things or like when someone's like, can we reschedule that meeting, you know, see even something as simple as that?

17:46If they tell me, you know, my kid's home sick, and I'm like, oh, of course. You know, like I just sort of this sort of instinct. Totally. It helps me make the mental leap of like, okay, yeah, no rescheduling, it's fine as opposed to I just want to reschedule. Yeah. It's a point of connection, I think, with the other person. Yeah. And I have a somewhat provocative viewpoint that no is not a complete sentence in the workplace.

18:13Because to your point, just imagine if you asked a colleague for a favor and you get in response to a nice email you wrote, you just get the words, no. How are you going to feel about that? It's not going to be great for the relationship. And so there's a delicate balance, especially for women, of providing enough context and explanation to say, I have to cancel this meeting.

18:40because and there's good influence research to show that just adding that word because makes someone much more amenable to whatever you're asking but not over explaining because that's a slippery slope when you start to say well my kid is sick and I have a lot of work and it's a full moon and Open yourself up to objection handling where someone can say, oh, well, we'll just move that task. And then all of a sudden you've backed yourself into a corner. And so provide some explanation, but be mindful not to over explain. How do you know?

19:17that difference, right? If I'm sitting there thinking, well, do I need to tell them that I'm taking my kid to Zoom class and that it starts at 430 and it's a 30 minute commute, how do you make that decision about what to share and what not to? I think many of us, we can emotionally start to tell when we're over explaining. We can get that feeling inside that I feel like I have to justify this because I feel bad for setting this boundary.

19:46And I think that's the biggest clue is when am I just stating the facts about the situation? I have a 430 cutoff today and I have commitments after these hours that I have to attend to versus once you start explaining those commitments are that you need to see your therapist or pick up your kit, you may start to feel icky about that. So I think it's also having the self-awareness to know in the moment when you feel like you're justifying your actions. Yeah. And I think it's helpful to remember, you don't owe someone an explanation necessarily for the boundary, but if you need them to approve the boundary or be on board with it, or you want to have a continuing relationship, you probably do want to explain why. We've been talking a lot about time boundaries and I'm curious,

20:40Ashley, are there other boundaries that you're either struggling with or that you've actually had to renegotiate or set that are not specifically about your schedule? Yeah, I mean, I think the other boundary challenge is the emotional boundary, right? So I'm pretty lucky in that when I sign off of my computer at the end of the day, it's off. Like, I don't look at it. I don't turn it back on.

21:10have a work iPhone, but I also don't look at that. At the end of the day, there's no possibility for me to get my work email into my personal phone, which is also great. Yeah, that's a good boundary. But that doesn't mean that I'm not thinking about work or it's not like creeping into my life in some other capacity of like, having too many things to review and like I really need to get that heads down time and I'm just trying to like think about how can I get out of this meeting so I can get more time to review. So I think there's like an emotional boundary that I'm always kind of pushing. At night time I'm definitely still thinking about work. Yeah. Melody, what do you think?

21:57Yeah, I'm so happy we're talking about this because this has become so much more common since the pandemic where we don't have that natural separation where we leave the office at the end of the day and we have a commute that helps us decompress and then we transition into personal time. A lot of us have lost that.

22:19And so one key thing you can do is recreate that transition ritual for yourself. What is sort of your shutdown routine? You know, I have some clients who put a timer on their phone first or in point in the evening or in their calendar so that it prompts them to start wrapping up for the day instead of getting into this. Well, just one more thing, one more email. So you actually nudge yourself to do that. And then you have some sort of ritual that signals This is the end of the workday and I am processing what is coming out of the workday and I am moving into personal time. So that could be writing down three things you're proud of from the day, three top priorities for the next day. So those things aren't jumbling around in your brain because your mind is a meaning making and problem solving machine. And if there are open loops.

23:13it's going to want to close those loops. So you'll just keep thinking about the thing, trying to get to a resolution and you can't. But if you can assure your mind and yourself that, okay, I've written down those key priorities, I have an outline of what I need to talk to so and so about the next day, that can help provide some of that closure. So that's one thing I would say. And then creating friction. So if you want to encourage yourself to do something, you want to make it easier. The idea of wearing your gym clothes to bed at night makes it easier to get up to go to the gym in the morning because you've reduced friction. But if you want to discourage yourself from doing something, make it harder. So that may be fully logging out of your work apps. So you're not just tempted to open and refresh your email or your Slack, maybe putting it in a different room.

24:10over the weekend, I have people that will completely take work apps and programs off of their phones so that they're not tempted to look at them. But thinking about how you can make going back to work harder for yourself can then discourage you from doing that. Yeah. Do you do any of that, Ashley? The closure or the creating friction? I mean, maybe like softly. The first thing I do when I'm done with my workday is walk my dogs.

24:40because I'm basically putting them off until I finish. And the longer it takes me to finish, the louder my little dog gets. She won't allow you to just like keep going. I literally like leave my desk, feed them and walk out the door. But that's also quite short, right? So in terms of letting go of the work in my mind, I don't know that it necessarily goes away as soon as I step outside at the end of the day. Are you thinking about work while you walk them? I'm not always thinking about work while I walk them. You know, my work kind of ebbs and flows. And so in times where I have a lot of work, I will keep thinking about that work throughout the rest of the day. And that's also kind of hard because sometimes, you know,

25:30I have so much work that it's hard to think about how to fit it in the 80-hour pay period. And then sometimes when those deliverables go back to the person who will read them next, then my work is kind of quiet. And it's not so hard to set the boundaries. Right. Yeah. Most people, when I think about setting boundaries, I think most people just have way too much all the time. And it's just about sort of like keeping it at bay. But I think your point about the work ebbs and flows is really interesting. And I know you had a question. Do you want to ask Melody your question about that? Yeah. The government can move fast and slow at the same time. So there's a lot of hurry up and then wait. And so we have slow periods. This past summer, I was awaiting a big work project to start. And I was hesitant to take on any other smaller projects because I knew the pace was going to pick up greatly.

26:28So how might I set boundaries with my supervisor or my time so that I'm not underutilized for a stretch of time, but also then not taken by surprise? How much is your manager aware of the ebbs and flows that you're going through? I think she's pretty aware. She was once in a position.

26:53very similar to mine. And so I think she really gets what our jobs are like. And sometimes it has to do with the federal fiscal schedule, things that are so much bigger than us that we have to wait on. Yeah. Do you have one-on-ones with your boss? Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah, we meet bi-weekly. Okay, great. Then this sort of capacity planning could be part of your one-on-one with your manager. Is it already?

27:21Yeah, we definitely talk about what's going on in my different projects. I think I'm also curious, Ashley, is it hard to set those boundaries because people, maybe your boss or teammates know you don't have a lot going on at the moment. So it's hard to be like, no, no, I've got something coming. I think that's accurate. You don't want to decline work when you actually have time to do it. Right. And at the same time, you want to make sure to hold the space because you know you will soon have so much more work. Yeah. And that's a wiggly boundary, I think. Yeah. So, Mel, what do you think? Like, I mean, it's sort of like this fluctuation between boredom, maybe irking your colleagues who are like, I see you sitting there, or I don't see you, but I know you're sitting there without much to do. And then also just sort of opening the floodgates and getting overwhelmed. Yeah.

28:13I'll say a few things here. I think in terms of keeping yourself engaged, think about how you might use these slow times strategically. Are there processes, systems? Are there areas you can streamline that are in a way their own boundaries that can help you down the road when work starts to pick up again? I'll give you a quick example.

28:38I often work with people who are product managers, project managers, and they often have people from sales, business development, marketing, coming to them with every request under the sun. And it can be distracting. They don't know what to prioritize. It can be overwhelming. So a boundary that...

28:58I often have them create is creating some sort of standardized process where, for example, they might have literally a form for a feature request that people have to fill out that then streamlines all of those requests that they get and sets some boundaries, parameters or criteria around what they can and can't do and protects their time from all of those other distractions. So I would encourage you to think about that. First of all, how you might use the slow time more strategically second is to think about for yourself when work starts to pick up again. Where can you then draw boundaries as needed so for example actually I don't think you manage people is that right I don't okay but just for example there may be.

29:50meetings you have with different stakeholders that you know when things pick up, you may need to decrease those from 60 minutes to 30 minutes or from bi-weekly to once a month. But be clear within yourself about what are those trade-offs I can make and those boundaries I'll need to set when things get busy again. And then the last thing around striking the balance with your boss or other people.

30:17when they come to you with other work, it's going to be important to be upfront that you're anticipating a busy time coming up. How does that land, Ashley? To some degree, right on. I work on a project that is outside of the government. By outside, I mean it's all non-governmental people and funded separately, but was asked to participate given some subject matter expertise and initially this was one meeting every other week and then it became one meeting every other week plus one meeting every week and That's not a small amount of my work week Plus the actual work that you do outside of the meetings, right? And so at some point for that project in particular when my my current

31:15large project picked up, I was like, I need to drop one of these meetings. If you need my specific expertise in the meeting, I can join on an ad hoc basis, but joining every week is, I don't think necessarily helpful because a lot of the topics were not necessarily using my subject matter expertise. And so I essentially got out of one meeting per week.

31:44Actually, what I love about that response is you very naturally led yourself to a great boundary technique, which is called the positive no. So this comes from William Urie. He is at Harvard Law School. And this is his technique where you say no to the initial request, but you share what you can do.

32:08I can't do X, but what I can do is Y. So you said, I can't attend these two meetings. I can attend one of them. Presenting that trade-off can be very effective. Yeah. So I want to loop back because I know, Ashley, you were, you know, you're talking about this work-life boundary. The 7 a.m. start is a little challenging. What would be most helpful? What can Melody and I help with in terms of resolving that?

32:35That's a good question. Honestly, I'm not exactly sure because like some of it is like, well, my almost four year old will eventually get to be a bigger person and understands that like when I'm working, I'm working. But also, I mean, I only see him for so many hours per day. So I'm also not like the saddest when he comes into my office and wants to tell me about whatever he's working on in the morning. So I'm not really sure what the like best takeaway is just maybe thoughts on how to set that boundary, maybe also with my partner who probably should be better at keeping him out of the room. Can I ask some questions? Yeah. What would your ideal situation be? I think that I could go deeper into my work in the morning.

33:35I think the ideal would be, you know, maybe my child comes in and says, hello, good morning, but he doesn't need me to help get his clothes on or doesn't only want me to come pour his cereal or whatever it is. Like, A, he can do that, but B also can my partner. His schedule is differently flexible than mine because he's an academic and so he has to be on campus when he's teaching.

34:04But he is not like literally putting in a time sheet. So if you were to even be 10% more focused, what is within your control to accomplish that? Sure. I think I could probably close the door. It seems really simple, but also kind of mean. But I could definitely close the door and I could probably be a little more forceful.

34:34forceful is probably not the right word, but forceful with my kid about like mama's working. And he, he hears that, but what's different about being a toddler is that you just don't necessarily care. Yeah. Well, let's talk about the other adult in the situation. The other adults. Yes. So what, what might you need to reinforce or ask from your partner so that you can have just again, just 10% improvement with your focus time.

35:05I think also ask him to be more forceful about keeping our kid out of the room and working on his relationship and also being a person who can provide. Our child truly understands this. It's just that in the morning he's, I mean, I think he only wants me because I'm not there. Of course. Yes. Yeah. Well, and I think what you first said, Ashley, when you started asking this question about, you sort of want to see him.

35:35I do. And the interruptions are welcome in some ways and unwelcome in others. As the mom of a 17-year-old, I can say he will totally not do this in a few years. And so some of it is about also accepting, oh, this is a time of life where I feel really torn and that's normal. Yeah. But I will say it does add up to stress and sitting down at 7 a.m. and not knowing, am I going to get that focus time or am I going to get a request to pour cereal? Right.

36:04you know, even if it was just three days a week or two days a week where you didn't get interrupted, right, that would be an improvement. Yeah, I think that's probably a like a feasible takeaway. And I think the last thing I want to say is that my child is also getting used to my new schedule. So like he is used to having me available to him in that time period, whereas I'm like, sorry, this is not the time for mom in a play with you, he's still, I think, trying to get used to that. Yeah. Yeah. And I think the parallel for colleagues too, though, right? Like when you set a new boundary, whether it's a new schedule or you are no longer checking email after five or whatever it is, your colleagues are not going to immediately say, okay, great, I respect that boundary, right? They are going to

36:54violated a few times. And I think that's, that is a critical thing to remember is that it's not just about setting the boundary, negotiating it, putting it in place. It's about constantly reminding those around you that this is the boundary. Right. That's exactly what I was going to say, Amy, is that when you first start setting it, you're disrupting the equilibrium of the relationship, right? And people want it to return back to normal so they may push back and yes, that's where we have to Gently stand our ground because you know, I'm a big believer that you teach people how to treat you and the example of people sending you emails after hours Well, if you say I end work at six, but then you're responding to emails until 11 p.m People don't respect the boundaries. So it's a great point that you do have to Gently reinforce it until the new norm resets. Yeah

37:52Because I think when I've had to like remind someone of a boundary, I get really resentful about it. And I think it probably comes off a little harsher. And I think reminding yourself like, it's human nature to take time to transition. It's human nature to test the boundaries and see, oh, was she serious about that? And so to just sort of be a little more empathetic. But Melody, I actually want to know, because what if you're doing something setting a boundary?

38:20that you think might come as a surprise to another person? Well, first of all, we used the word resentment. And that is a really great way to use your emotions as data to give you a signal of where do I need to set a boundary? Because resentment is an emotional sign that you've let something go on for too long without addressing it.

38:44And so even just periodically doing an audit of where you're feeling resentment in your life can help you be better at setting boundaries. I also think it's important in that situation where you haven't articulated it, you have let it go on, that you take a little bit of ownership to say, I realize that I haven't been clear about this in the past or I realize that I should have brought this up earlier. But it's important to me to express this now, when you do X, it has Y consequence. So going forward, I would appreciate it if you could get those drafts to me in a timely manner. What can we do to make sure that's possible? So I think it's just acknowledging, I realize I haven't said this before, I want to bring it up now. And you can also throw in because I care about our working relationship, or you can tie it to a certain time of year, maybe it's

39:41the beginning of the year, a new quarter, a new project starting, that can also help it feel like more of a natural transition. Yeah. And I've used this too. I've really been reflecting on how much I work.

39:56and I know it's a concern for all of us and one of the things that would help is I wouldn't have to work late if that draft came in on time. And I think the positive no too of like if you get it to me on time I promise to turn it around that afternoon which will speed up the whole process later on. I'm not saying you always have to give something it's okay to just set a boundary but if you can acknowledge that they're going to benefit as well I think that that can help. Okay so I'm going to set a boundary that I need to leave because we're at our time. So thank you both. Very useful conversation. I'm sure listeners will take away a lot from it as well. Yeah, I think this has been great. Thank you both so much. Yeah, it's such a unique situation. It's very rare that I get to talk to someone who says, my workplace has very firm boundaries. So it was actually a lot of fun.

40:52Next week, Amy B. closes out this season of The Essentials with a conversation about handling fierce criticism. No matter how much you think you're ready for it, no matter how much you think you've practiced or prepared, it's never easy. Women at Work's editorial and production team is Amanda Cursey, Maureen Hoek, Tina Toby Mack, Rob Eckhart, Erica Truxler, Ian Fox, and Hannah Bates. Robin Moore composed this theme music.

41:20Are you subscribed to the Woman at Work newsletter? Sign up by going to hbr.org slash email hyphen newsletters. Every month we send you a mix of resources, practical advice and personal stories. Aim to lift you up and move you forward. I'm Amy Gallo. Thanks for listening.