Women at Work - We Answer Questions from Early Career Listeners

0:05You're listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. And in this episode, we're going to do something a little bit different. We hear a lot from our listeners, and many of them are early in their careers. They regularly email us with questions about workplace issues that they're dealing with. So we wanted to pull in our friend Paige Cohen, who oversees a send for HBR.

0:34and who regularly deals with stuff like this. So Paige, welcome. Thank you, Amy. It's so great to be here. Tell us a little about Ascend. So yeah, Ascend is a sub-brand that we've recently launched and it lives under Harvard Business Review. But like you said, it's really more about offering work and life advice to young people around the world. So that could be someone who's just graduating and doesn't know what they want to do or is looking for advice on how to land a first job. It could be someone who's just trying to navigate their early career or even a first time manager.

1:11It's sort of similar to what we do on women at work because you guys take on really thorny questions too. Yeah, exactly. And it's focused on giving that same kind of quality, practical advice. And like women at work, we're focused on building a community and elevating people's stories. So we try to feature voices that are just inclusive and share important perspectives that people can relate to and learn from right now. Yeah.

1:37Page let's get into some of the questions that have come into us at women at work that I think you would be particularly qualified to help us think through. Yeah okay so let's start off with a question written in response to a podcast episode that women at work published called to shy to be a leader.

1:56This person says she's actually pretty outgoing in life, but when it comes to work, she's shy, quiet and more introverted. And this is usually because she's questioning her own competency or the value of what she has to contribute at work. Another recurring pattern she just noticed is that in performance reviews, she'll get feedback often that says she needs to be more assertive. So she wrote, Granted, I'm sure there's always opportunity to be more assertive as a woman, but I'd like to think too much assertiveness could also be a point of criticism. And she says that she wants to find a balance really between assertiveness and persuasion. What are our thoughts on this? Yeah, this is the famous double bind that women face in the workplace and have faced since there have been women in the workplace.

2:49There's that great article called How Women Manage the Gendered Norms of Leadership by Wei Zhang, Ronette Clark, and Allison Meister. And they point out the four kinds of tensions, the balancing act that women have to perform in the workplace. You have to be demanding, but caring. You have to be authoritative, yet participative. All of that stuff. Haven't you felt that?

3:17Yes, I definitely have. I found this letter super relatable, even though I wouldn't say I'm an extroverted person in real life or at work, but especially in my first couple of jobs, I was very quiet at work and I found it difficult to advocate for myself. And then when I did...

3:37I almost felt like I was being gaslit by my manager or by HR that I was being told I was bossy or that I was just bothering people or being unreasonable. And it was so hard to deal with because as a young person in the workplace, I think everybody wants to be liked. So if you feel like you're being bossy or annoying people by asking for what you want, it's tempting to just shut down and be quiet. Is this something you've ever faced throughout your career? Oh my God, of course. Of course. But you've navigated this more recently than I.

4:06How did you do it? It must be very fresh for you. Yeah, definitely. For me, it's been building up confidence by leaning on my strengths. I'm more of a quiet and shy person naturally. What I'll do, there's a meeting I care about and I know I want to speak up. It's an important topic. I might just practice beforehand what I want to say.

4:31can seem tedious, but is actually super helpful when you finally raise your hand to have rehearsed it a little bit. Yeah, I 1000% agree with that. And yeah, it's super tedious. But when you're in that presentation and you know it cold, it gives you a so much more confidence. Yeah.

4:52I thought this idea of persuasion that she's talking about, like mixing the two assertiveness and persuasion, is something I've had to navigate a lot. Especially when it comes to winning over maybe more senior employees at new roles. This idea of sometimes, and I don't even know if this is a good thing, but I've found that I've had to act small before I can act big around someone. Say more about that. Give us an example.

5:20Actually when I first started working at HBR I made this multimedia video and it was for one of our verticals and a person who was much more senior than me gave me like this huge page of feedback and I kind of read it as some of it was really good but some of it was a little bit about them asserting their authority over like this is my thing. So before I could do what I like wanted to do I had to be like overly verbal about like, thank you so much for this feedback. I think it's so important that you give this to me and that I'm able to see it from all these perspectives. This is going to help make the video so much better. And then I never had to deal with it from that person again because they were like, oh, this person appreciates me and this person trusts my feedback. And in that way I could start taking it in my own direction.

6:14and it was easier. And that was a more persuasive way of being assertive than like a outright way of being assertive, I would say. It's really interesting because most people in that situation would have taken that really personally and might have even shut down after receiving a page of feedback. Yeah. And you read it for what it was. That's kind of amazing.

6:38I come from a background of film school and creative writing and you're just constantly, constantly getting feedback from people. Sometimes, you know, people take your story personally. Sometimes people take your work personally. And after a while it just becomes emotionally trying to think too much about anything beyond like the work is the work. If you're afraid to be assertive or if you're doubting yourself at work, it's helpful to draw those boundaries and...

7:05it's empowering to say like, my work is my work. Something about that separation helps it be just not as big of a deal. So you go in, you do your thing and you leave. If you don't overthink it, you might find that some of that questioning of your own competency or your value goes away if you're able to just have that boundary. So I totally know what you're talking about. And I think some of what I take from what you're saying is that it's important to sort of strip away the personal and try to take the real value.

7:34And I think that when you're trying to overcome your own shyness and when you're trying to become more assertive and you're worried about crossing that line, you know, not making that balance, right? Not being able to handle that balance. I think that there's something in what you're saying right now about not taking things personally, trying to see the situation for what it is, right? But also you have to have confidence to do that, right?

8:04Yeah, you could start by just like reading the room and like start small and see how you feel afterwards and you'll get more and more comfortable with it compared to like where I was at the beginning of my career to how much more comfortable I am being assertive now. It's just all through those like little moments of practice and then having allies and just like a network of women who will reassure you and be your champions. It's super helpful just to get out of your own head. You kind of need someone sometimes and Nicole, who used to be a host on Women at Work, and I used to do this for each other all the time, like, after a meeting, we'd be like, was what I said okay? Like, what did you think of that? Did that sound good? And it was just helpful to have that ally in your corner. So something like that can kind of, you can use it to check yourself. Yeah. And also to understand that it's that thing about asking yourself what the worst is that could happen if you assert yourself. I mean, if someone disagrees with you, big deal. Someone disagrees with you.

9:02Right. Yeah. Amy, do you want to read the next question? Yeah, it comes from a woman who is on an all-male team other than her. And she has found herself, time after time, shut out of critical decisions, critical meetings. And she's wondering, what's she going to do about this? How can she handle this? This is really getting in the way of her learning and her advancement.

9:31When I read this question I wondered if in a situation like this the letter writer said that you know she's tried offering help, she's expressed interest and she's still being told no. Is this the kind of situation where you just need a outright say this is what I want and here's why I'm qualified to do it or this is what I want and here's why this would be a huge growth opportunity for me.

9:57there any way your delivery of the message can help you get what you want. And I know this would largely be dependent on the manager, but I'd be curious to hear what you think about that, Amy. Yeah, well, I think that it's one of those situations where you really have to sort of think through your argument. Right. Melissa Phoney wrote about this in an article called How to Respond When You're Left Out of Important Meetings. Yeah. And she says that, you know, you have to check your ego at the door. You have to ask yourself, is this about me?

10:26Am I being kept out of this meeting because I may or is there a rational reason for me to be out of this meeting? And then you have to develop your argument, right? For why you should be at the meeting. Part of it could be that this is an important part of your learning process and will help the team and the organization if you are there. And then you have to figure out how you can be helpful at this meeting, what you bring to it. Yeah.

10:55But I think what's challenging about this is maybe I don't need to be there right now, but I would learn a lot to be there. So how do you explain that in a way that seems like it's going to be good for the company? Maybe you say, it's such a small thing you can do, but I'm going to learn so much and I'm going to be able to contribute this, this and this down the line. This is where I see myself. I really value the company. Can you give me this opportunity so I can go after it? Yeah. And it's really helpful.

11:23to make sure that you're reading the situation right. Yeah, I actually had a similar experience in one of my jobs and it was really hurtful. I was working on a team and pretty much everyone on the team was responsible for something and I was responsible for assisting with one thing but at the same time I felt like I was doing a lot of work and I really cared about the project and there was a meeting and everyone on the team was invited.

11:50to the meeting but me and it was to present on the project. It was really upsetting and my first reaction was like this hot headed embarrassment and shame and anger and then I just went to the person in charge of setting up the meeting and I said, is there a reason why I'm not on the invite list? And I don't think that was the best way to start that conversation. That's not really the advice we're giving.

12:20But it did open up at least a conversation to say like this is why I think I deserve to be in the room. And it turned out that the person who ran the meeting was just like I just don't want to put a bunch of meetings on your schedule. We have so many meetings. We invite everyone to everything. I just didn't even think it was going to resonate with you like this. But just to have that space to have that conversation was super helpful. And it did make my relationship with that person much stronger later on. Oh, that's so interesting because so often These are crimes of omission, not commission. I mean, who knows what's going on in our listeners situation. It sounds pretty bad. Yeah. But sometimes just a simple question like, Hey, I'd really like to be at that meeting. I think I'd get a lot out of it. I think I can contribute some stuff would get you invited. And if you are kind of up against the wall, which sounds like this case, then practice with a friend, be proactive about having that conversation.

13:19and build the case for yourself. Just let people know why it's going to be valuable for you to be there. Even if things don't turn out the way you want them, you'll feel more empowered and you'll feel good that you did that, at least. Absolutely. I mean, the worst feeling is when you feel like you have absolutely no power in the situation. And this is at least about trying to control your own destiny. And you always do have some power. Yep. That's absolutely right. Yeah.

13:49So Paige we got a really interesting question from a listener who is dealing with infertility. She's probably gonna need to get treatments IVF, you know in vitro fertilization treatments that will require her to take time away from the office and These treatments also create a huge physical and emotional strain. So she works in a mostly male office. She doesn't have any sort of senior women who she can talk to. And she's thinking about this ahead of time and she's just wondering, how should she handle this at work? Gosh, I'm so happy that this question was submitted because this is something we really don't talk about enough but it's so important.

14:45We recently published an article called employers. It's time to talk about infertility on HBR and It talks about how one in six couples seek infertility treatment and seeing as like what you said that it's such an emotional and physical and time-consuming thing it's so difficult to Feel like you can't talk about that or hold that in so the first question is Should she raise this with her manager? How does she talk about this? Yeah, and I'll just jump right in with that first question. I think she has to raise this with her manager. Yeah, I agree. I think there's ways to have the conversation. It's not going to be an easy conversation.

15:33It's a first step towards building some awareness around what you're, if you're looking ahead, like what you're going to be going through and setting up some expectations with your manager. Some of that might be around the appointments that it would take, how it would affect your work-life balance. So this reminds me of an episode we recently recorded from Women at Work, all about how to handle these kind of sensitive health situations, particularly when you need to take time off.

16:03One of the pieces of advice we heard was that the way to deal with this is factually. You start with the facts. I'm going to need to get these treatments. I'm going to need to take an hour off a week for six weeks. Just stick to the facts initially. I wonder if when you're asking your manager for these things, it's important to build in some extra time and space to manage your physical and mental health.

16:32As a queer woman I know that if I ever wanted to have a baby it would be a similar process and something that I think about is would I be able to be comfortable asking my manager for the rest I need physically and mentally if I were going through this process.

16:52feel like i pressured to go to an appointment and jump right back into work especially in a place where you feel like you can't talk to people would be really difficult because the other side of that is you know if you don't ask for what you need you're going to end up living your worst nightmare yeah you're going to come back to work before you really should come back to work you're not going to be able to perform the way you want to perform you're going to be wiped out you're going to be emotionally tapped You got to take care of yourself. And this is sort of for the greater good as much as it is for you. I mean, one thing that article points out is that it is common and getting more common. And so chances are you're not the first person even in a largely male office who's dealt with something like this. So maybe you're not as alone as you think. Yeah, absolutely. So Paige, let's take another question.

17:49Okay, so this one is from a 25-year-old woman. She works in the veterinary marketing industry. And her question is, I am working on aligning myself to be in a C-suite position one day. Do you have any tips for how to set myself up for success? I guess I'm curious like what your first reaction is, Amy, given that you're kind of like a badass boss at HBR and have been in so many leadership roles and even VP roles in the past.

18:17The first thing I notice about her is her ambition, and I salute her ambition. Aim high. That is the only way to get to the top, right? The most fundamental thing I can say here is don't lose sight of the job you're supposed to do, but look for every single opportunity you can find to demonstrate your ability to do additional work, your ambition.

18:44your willingness to learn. It's the difference between coming across as kind of a jerk and coming across as the teammate everyone wants to work with. You know what I mean? Yeah, definitely. So this question really makes me think of an article that one of the women at work hosts, Amy Gallo, actually wrote called act like a leader before you are one. You really want to make your teammates and your boss look good. Yeah. And one of the things that Amy says that I think is So totally true is don't overstate your expertise. Don't exert authority where you don't have any is what she writes. She says use your influence to demonstrate your leadership chops. I think that is so important. That's that thing about not being a jerk. Yeah, I feel like at HBR I've.

19:35experienced this a little bit coming in to a role. I came in as an associate and I'm in a senior editor role now and I think like a part of being able to grow there has been like another piece of Amy's advice and something that touches on I think my relationship with you is networking and finding role models and people who are in positions that you admire and asking them how they got there and what you can do.

20:01It kind of goes back to some of those conversations you and I have had throughout my two years here. Yeah, you know, Anna Ranieri also wrote something for us, I think touches on that. She points out that if you want to get somewhere, you have to figure out what skills you'll need. And that's what a lot of the conversations you and I have been about. You wanted to know what was required of the next step. And then you wanted to figure out how to both acquire those skills and demonstrate them. You seem to have a kind of intuitive sense about that. But it worked, right? Look where you are. It didn't take very long. Yeah. I also applaud this person for their ambition because I definitely was not at that place when I was 25 years old. I still don't want to be in the C-suite. It seems like way too much responsibility. But I think it's amazing that this person's already thinking about it.

20:56Yeah, so Paige, you said you don't want to be the CEO, but I have to say, you did this great day in the life of a CEO, TikTok video. Yes, I remember that one. That suggests otherwise. Yeah, that is true, but that was more of my fantasy of what a CEO's life would look like. I was playing guitar hero on my desk. That said, if you do want to watch more of our TikTok videos and meet our editors and team members who are a lot of fun, you can go to our channel.

21:25It's called HBR Ascend on TikTok and check out more fun videos there. I hope they'll make you laugh. So let's help our listeners find Ascend. Where can we find it?

21:38Yeah, so if you want to check out some of the content we've been creating, you can go to hbr.org slash ascend or you can sign up for our newsletter, which is on the hbr.org website. And if you have any questions about ascend, you can email us at hbr ascend at hbr.org. And if you want to check out any of the articles Paige and I mentioned, we'll include links to them in our show notes page. Thanks so much for joining me today. This was really fun.

22:08It was. Thank you for having me. And thanks to all of you for listening.