Women at Work - We Deserve Better Than “Attagirl”

0:00You're listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. I'm Sarah Greencar-Michael. I'm Nicole Torres. And I'm Amy Bernstein. Getting productive feedback about how we're doing at work is vital to making progress in our careers. But managers often don't give women the most useful information. One study of performance reviews showed that men tended to get specific feedback. Women, on the other hand, were more likely to get vague feedback.

0:32Men were much likelier to hear about how they were meeting their business goals. Women, how they were communicating. This episode, we're talking about what we can do to get the feedback we need to succeed. And we'll start with a research roundup. Robin Ely is a professor at Harvard Business School and the faculty chair of the HBS Gender Initiative. She's an expert in how women are treated at work. And I went to her house to talk to her about the gender gap in feedback. Thanks for having us at your home. Sure.

1:02Robin, what does the research tell us about the type of feedback women get at work? Well, there's actually quite a lot of research on this question, and what most of it shows is that women tend to get more positive feedback relative to men, but the positive feedback tends to be vague. So women are told, for example, that they're doing a good job, you know, you had a great year, but the feedback isn't specific about what they've done that was so great. You know, they're not hearing about what exactly is the positive impact that they've had on business outcomes.

1:35Also, the praise doesn't seem to translate to any objective outcomes, like numerical ratings. So there was a study in a law firm, actually, that was done by Joan Williams and some of her colleagues. And what they found is that in the narrative comments, so there's narrative comments and numerical ratings, and in the narrative comments, women are likely to be praised, but then they're rated more poorly than men when they're on the objective ratings. And the objective ratings is what's considered key for making partner.

2:03I actually suspect that what happens with these things is that the objective ratings because they're referred to in partner decisions you know, when partners want to make an associate a partner, they'll end up giving that person a high numerical rating. But then the narrative comments for men are tending to be much more developmental. So even if they're critical, they're really specific about what he needs to do in order to improve. Whereas again, women are more likely to be praised. And then that praise doesn't translate into objective ratings. The other thing that's interesting that a couple of studies have shown is that when they

2:39do get specific negative feedback, it tends to be a criticism of their style. Basically some version of you have sharp elbows, you're too aggressive. But that's actually very hard to act on. It's feedback about how you are, as opposed to, you know, exactly what you're doing and what you need to change and how you can improve.

3:05Why does this matter? What are the consequences for women when managers are not giving them the feedback that they need to improve? So every employee deserves direct, specific, behavioral feedback. All employees need that in order to develop and advance, reach their full potential, thrive, be successful in their organization.

3:34If women are not getting that kind of feedback, then they're less likely to thrive. They're less likely to advance. They're not going to be developed. So I'd love to get a sense of what this sounds like, the difference in feedback that men and women get. So I'm a woman. How do you think this interview is going right now? OK, so if I were to respond to that in a way that's consistent with what the research shows, I would say, I think you're doing a great job. And I would say, Thank you. Not really know what else to push on or what else to ask you about. You know, I'd say, I guess I'm doing a great job. I wouldn't know if there's anything I should change or not. I would kind of just keep going. So what if I was a man? Okay. So I would probably say to you, I think the interview is going well. I think that the questions that you're asking are

4:27You know, the right questions to ask to elicit the kind of information I think you're interested in getting in this interview. You know, but if you could ask me for some more examples that might really drive home the points I think you're trying to make. And so that would be really helpful. So that latter piece, that's what developmental feedback looks like. It's very specific. I'm telling you behaviorally what you could do to improve and why.

4:57What can managers do differently then to correct this discrepancy and to fix this problem? I think the first thing is to become aware of it and to really be vigilant about the way one interacts with ones, especially subordinates. These are things that people do not intentionally. I mean, this is another kind of form or manifestation of implicit bias. The dynamic really underlying it is something that a colleague of mine, Peter Glick and his colleagues, have called benevolent sexism. And so this is a form of sexism. It's in contrast to hostile sexism, which is how we usually think about sexism.

5:44There's some kind of hostile work environment around them. But benevolent sexism is actually more insidious, acting on this belief that women need to be protected, placing women on a pedestal. And this is a form of protection. People think they're protecting women. I think what the research suggests is that underneath it, it's really a form of making sure that women stay in their place as a manager and you're responsible for.

6:13other people's development and you're responsible for you know developing the talent your company needs in order to perform well. When you start to think oh she's you know ex but and it's a stereotype once you once you kind of get that stereotype you have some narrative some explanation about why a woman is doing what she's doing or quite frankly why a man is doing what he's doing and you've got this kind of stereotype tape going on in your head. That's, that's when you stop. Can you give us an example of that stereotype tape playing in people's heads? Yeah. So it's, you know, I just, I don't think that she is partner material because she just lacks confidence. So, hmm, well, that's a stereotype. Is that really true? If she's behaving in a way that looks like she's lacking confidence, why might that be? And what

7:11my eye even be doing to contribute to that. And here is where we get to feedback. Maybe she lacks confidence because she's not getting really good actionable developmental feedback. Am I giving her that? And, you know, sort of looking at, well, what have been my most recent interactions with her?

7:31What kind of feedback have I given or any feedback? What about the formal, usually these formal performance appraisal systems? Let me go take a look at that. In fact, let me go take a look and see whether there are systematic differences in the language I'm using as I am offering up these sort of narrative evaluations of the men and women who are my direct reports. And let me look at the objective ratings.

7:55So then after that, after a question you're thinking, evaluating your own behavior, then what's next? So the next thing is to change your behavior. And there's maybe two pieces to that with respect to feedback. One is that there are real technical skills involved in giving feedback. We teach it at Harvard Business School, and feedback should be direct, specific, and behavioral. And so really getting a handle on what does high quality feedback look like, and getting some practice in actually delivering that. I think the second thing is a little bit deeper, goes to this other point we were talking about, what's underneath that, is to really get a handle on what is it about yourself that is making it hard for you to do that. And I think one of the things that makes it hard.

8:45Look, feedback is hard. It's especially hard to give critical feedback to anybody, but it seems to be harder to give it to women. So really doing an assessment of, you know, again, your own being self-aware, what are your fears in giving direct feedback? And if it comes up in your head, why I don't want to be mean, I don't want to hurt her feelings, then, you know, you can, again, it's stopping yourself and saying, okay, well, that's really about me. That's not really about her. I need to get in touch with like what would it take for me to get over that fear what do I think would happen if I were mean and then sort of thinking about what's the difference between being mean and actually being thoughtful and generous sort of redefining what is what does it mean to give critical feedback it's actually a gift and it's a skill

9:32If you're a manager and you treat it that way with every employee, you probably won't see systematic differences arising, at least not from the kinds of differences that arise from not getting good feedback. Robin, thank you for having us over. Thank you for clarifying all of these myths about feedback and what women need. This has been really helpful. You're very welcome. Thanks for coming.

10:00With Robin's research insights in mind, we wanted to talk more about how to get specific feedback that's tied to outcomes. The type of feedback that gives us a clear sense of how we're performing and what we need to do to advance. Something that I can take and build on. Something that I can do. That's Ella Bell Smith. She's a professor at the Tuck School of Business at Dartmouth. Ella, thank you so much for being with us today. You're welcome.

10:27What in your career has convinced you that getting useful feedback is important? I think feedback is a gift, first of all. And anytime that I've gotten feedback, particularly hard feedback that is hard for me to hear, if I can apply it and I usually try, it's made me better. It's made my performance better. It's made my attitude better.

10:56it has made me more effective at what I do. I think there's several reasons for that, but the people that gave it to me, I trusted. I had a relationship with. So I knew that they were supportive about my development, about my growth, about me being good. So I trusted those individuals, and that made the world a difference.

11:25What kind of prep should we be doing before we approach someone to ask them for feedback? Think a little bit about when is the appropriate time. For me, the appropriate times, and there are several, I think, number one, during a performance review. That's important to be real clear about what you want, what you need, what kind of development are you looking for. After a major project is critical.

11:55to be able to ask the person that was responsible, the team leader, the manager, particularly if you're the Spordinate, what worked? Start with what works. I always like to start with what's working, what's working, what could have I done more of to make me more of value to the team, to make me more of value to the project, to make me better, to make me more effective.

12:20The other thing is, I'm not sure that I just pop into my manager's office and say, I'm looking for feedback. I think you need to be real clear about what you're looking for feedback for. And you and your manager should have had a conversation during the performance review about what your goals are for that next performance period so that you can check in periodically with your manager and say, okay, how am I doing?

12:47That might be face to face. That might be over a cup of coffee. It depends on when you think it's the best time. Timing is everything. When you think it's the best time for your manager. It's not when he or she is busy at work or has a major project going on. It's not when there's a crisis in the organization. It's not when your manager is distracted.

13:13and you really want to have some quality time. It doesn't have to be quantity, but it does need to be, I believe, some solid quality time. Ella, what should we be doing during the conversation to make sure we're getting the best feedback? You need to be listening. I always tell people body language speaks volumes.

13:34So if you're one of these people that are all closed up and you're folded and your legs are crossed and your arms are crossed No, because you're basically saying to the individual giving you feedback. I'm not too interested So you want to be open you want to relax remember to breathe and That hopefully they're going to give you something that you you can use and you can build upon You want to ask can I take notes? It's all right to say do you mind if I take notes?

14:02Because I want to make sure that when our conversation is over that I can go back and figure out how I'm not going to implement some of this. What are some steps I want to do? And you want to be specific on that note that you're asking, give me some specific steps that you would suggest. Those three things, listening, paying attention to your body language, taking notes, and don't be afraid to ask questions. If your manager is telling you, giving you information that is confusing you, say, well, wait a minute. Do you mind if I clarify, because I'm a little confused? It's all right to do that. Specifically though, so if you get negative feedback, and I'm not gonna call it constructive in this case, if it's like trim your sharp elbows or stop being quite so aggressive, how do you respond to vague feedback like that that isn't truly constructive? Well, if you're someone like me, I have to remind myself don't get defensive, number one.

14:58I've got to make sure that I'm grounded enough so when I get negative feedback, I don't disappear on the individual. I don't respond too quickly and that I'm keeping my sharp elbows down and not saying, well, what do you mean by that? Can you give me an example when I did that? What was the impact that you saw? How often have you seen me do that? Questions like that.

15:28It's not that I'm pushing back on what you're telling me. I'm trying to make sure I understand what you're telling me. And how could I have done that better? If you were in that situation, how might you have handled it? Remember that feedback is a developmental process, number one. And it's also an interactive process. If you're just being negative, then that's gonna shut me down. Can I share a personal story on that?

15:57Of course. I've got two personal examples of that. I remember as an academic, which is a little bit different than the corporate world, but I think it still applies. I remember when I was early, early on in my career, and I was meeting with my manager and he told me, well, your writing is really bad and you need to learn to use the King's English. Well, as an African American woman, that just hit me the wrong way.

16:27And I was young and I was like, what do you mean by the king's English? In other words, you know, what are you explaining? What are you trying to tell me? It pressed a racial trigger in me. So I really stopped listening to anything he had to say. After that, nothing he said was of value to me, whether it was good or bad. Because I thought that whatever he was telling me was tainted.

16:55by his perception of me as an African American woman. Okay, so that's one example. The second example is this person's authority, he was using his authority the wrong way with me. One of the senior faculty members, I was still a junior, came in and said, you know, I want to give you some feedback. And he wanted to stand. So he was standing, I stood. He was like, no, no, no, you sit down. And I was like, no, no, no, I'll stand. You were using your authority in a way that was trying to exert your power over my power and influencing me in a way that you were reprimanding me like I was a child. Neither were constructive, neither was helpful, and neither was something that I could do anything about immediately. So I think it's important to remember that it's an interactive process. So if the person's giving me feedback is also open,

17:52is also listening to me, is giving me eye contact, is being respectful, is not pushing my buttons. Yes, be direct. I don't need, oh, you're just wonderful and let me give you a pat on the back end. You know, that's not what I'm seeking. But I am seeking an interaction that even though I'm hearing something I don't like, I'm feeling respected. I'm feeling...

18:18heard and I'm hearing that you're interested in my development. What advice would you give then to someone if you heard that story? You know if they had an experience of getting that kind of negative feedback what would you tell them? I always tell particularly women of color seek multiple sources for your feedback. Don't depend on one person to give you feedback. Your sources of feedback should be a constellation of allies, people you work with, as well as your managers. So that you're getting a clear view of your performance. You're getting, hopefully, a more objective opinion. When you get negative feedback, be clear. I'm not sure what I can do with that. So I'd appreciate if you could give me some examples.

19:13I'd appreciate if you could look at my writing and show me exactly when and where I'm not using the King's English. I'd appreciate if we could sit down and have a conversation about this rather than me feeling like you're punishing me. Don't say it in a defensive way, but be clear and be direct about what's happening with you. And if you can't get that from the individual, then you need to seek out other options over sources, other people to get feedback. I'm not suggesting that you write that person off. What I'm suggesting is that you have multiple sources and then afterwards, maybe a month later, go back to that individual and say, you know, when you said that to me, that really threw me. And I might not have responded the right way. So when you get a second, I'd like to have an opportunity for us to come back to that conversation.

20:09And see how we can reframe it so that I can take advantage of what you're telling me if you still get resistance It's time for you to go to HR and say I'm not getting the kind of feedback I need to get and I'm trying yeah What if you're getting vague feedback, but it's positive like you're doing a great job or you're having a really good year That's not super helpful. So what?

20:33do you say to that how can you get more specific feedback the old add a girl oh you're so great yeah i'm so great um that's really great but can you be specific what am i doing that's great give me again i always want to ask for examples when did i do it so i can do more of it i need to be aware of what it is so i can do more of it too often i see women when they get the great, okay, I'm great, I'm gone. No, you're not gone. You haven't done your homework. Let's go back to the performance review. You've set some clear, you should have set some clear goals and some objectives for yourself that year. That's on you.

21:14That's doing your homework. This is what I want to do. This is what I want to achieve. This is what I want to bring to the table. So when you come back to that annual review, you come in with your list. Okay, this is what we set out. Now, give me some specifics around each of this. And add a girl is not the right response. So one tendency that I have when I get that.

21:36sort of at a girl is I just minimize that praise and I focus on the negative. And I've seen this tendency in other women like, yeah, yeah, you're giving me the praise, but just hurry up and get to like the real stuff. What are the effects of doing that though? I trust that's not necessarily a healthy thing to do. You're self-sabotaging yourself. Feedback and getting feedback and understanding feedback is connected to self-worth. So if I just want to get out of that room and I've settled for that at a girl.

22:06Then I've missed an opportunity to grow. I have to own that Yes, you do have to educate your managers because managers research shows managers are not good at giving feedback period But the reality of it is you need to be prepared and you need to realize that this is a chance for growth This is a chance for learning. It is also a chance to build relationship at a dear friend who was CFO at a fortune 500 company And he really wanted to build relationships, particularly with the women of color in his company. So there was one woman and she was just off the chain. She was fantastic. She was doing all the right things. And he just wanted to talk with her, build the relationship with her, you know, learn a little bit about her.

22:57So when he scheduled the meeting, she called me and she was like, what does he want to see me? What have I done wrong? Oh, I'm so scared. And I'm like, child, please. The man just wants to get to know you.

23:09I think we're so fearful that we're doing something wrong because our society has such a way of saying that women are never good enough. We're never smart enough. We're never bright enough. We've got to work three times as hard, particularly if you're a woman of color. So you come in thinking, well, I can't be doing anything right. That's a self-worth question. And I always tell women if a manager wants to get to know you, and particularly if a senior executive wants to get to know you, build on that opportunity because they're checking you out to see are you the right one that he wants to sponsor one day. So often men are afraid to give women negative feedback because they're afraid that we can't take it, we'll get too emotional. What do you say to that? A couple of responses from that. I think that describes to some degree, and I don't mean to generalize, but I think that describes the reality for white females.

24:07I think for Latina and African American women, they're scared to give feedback because they're afraid of being accused of being racist. They haven't had a lot of interaction with women who look like me. So I think there are different ways that white men handle depending on who's in front of them.

24:29Regardless of kind of the hang up of the manager, whether he is sort of worried about protecting someone's feelings or worried about looking racist or being racist, as a manager, that person has a responsibility to get over themselves and give the person in front of them the specific useful feedback they need to grow. So how can managers do that? I think they need to be very aware of what their assumptions are going in. They need to be very clear about their interactions.

24:57I think managers signal if they're really interested in an individual, if they really want an individual to grow. And, you know, it is the manager's responsibility to develop individuals. I remember at one academic institution, I got my feedback for the year in the parking lot. All my colleagues got feedback in their offices. When I asked him why I was getting my feedback, three months late in the parking lot, he said, well, I stopped by your office, you weren't at your desk. Okay. Not to mention that was an EEOC violation. All right, let's get technical here for a minute. It told me that I needed to have alternate sources. It told me how I was valued. It told me how I was seen. It told me that, well, if I want to stay here,

25:51I'm taking a chance because I'm not sure that my career can really develop, evolve, and grow in this institution. So the thing is also, here's another point that we haven't talked about. If you're not getting the kind of feedback that you think you should be getting and that you are seeking and that you are being bold enough and confident enough to ask for, then the next question becomes, how long are you gonna put up with that?

26:18Because research shows that the way African-American and Hispanic women advance is basically leaving companies because they get stuck. So, I mean, it's just something to think about. Yeah. I want to loop this back to what you were saying about the importance of building relationships because I think if you are one of a handful of women in a male-dominated environment or one of only one or two people of color and an overwhelmingly white environment. How do you build those trusting relationships with other resources who can give you feedback if your direct manager isn't the person? That's a great question. I always look for people who are educable. Who has shown an interest in me? Not just Ty, how are you? But who has shown a genuine interest in me? Who is interested in helping me? I remember when I first went to talk, the associate dean,

27:15met me outside. I don't know how he knew I was pulling up in my car, but he was waiting on the steps for me. And there was an important event, convocation, but my truck was coming with all my belongings. So I was getting ready to move in and I clearly was not dressed for a convocation. He looked at me and he said, well, you better go change. And I looked at him and I said, well, I'm not going to convocation. The movers are coming. He said, you are going to convocation. You better go change.

27:43and you've got 10 minutes. And I looked at him and I was like, you know what? Who do you, I almost went into that, who do you, and I'm from New York City. So it was like the head, you know, snapping. Who do you think you are? And then I stopped a moment and I said, okay, I went and changed. I went to convocation. That was someone that I took a chance on and it was the best chance I've ever, ever taken.

28:12He was a great advocate for me. But he also told me when, you know, you could have done so and so better. Okay, yeah, you're right. But I could learn, we could push back on each other. That was so important. It taught me a couple of things, even though I was late in my career. Don't be afraid of someone who is direct with you and giving you feedback that is probably gonna help you navigate the company.

28:42Because what he was telling me was look if you're gonna be successful and I was the first African-American woman on on track there So he was like if you're gonna be successful. This is what you need to do Now I might not like what you're telling me, but you are telling me how to navigate So if you're willing to take the time to tell me this is what you need to do to be successful here And I'm gonna at least try it Then that's the person that I want to write a handwritten note to and say thank you. Yeah, well Robin talked about how feedback is a skill, you know, it should be direct specific behavioral and clear about the impact that your behavior has on others and that's something that you have to learn, you know, you have to practice. How can we get better at this skill? How can we practice giving feedback? I think you start with your allies and you actually role play. I can think of a time when a

29:40female that I was working with around leadership. She was going in for a major role in a different company. And what she did, she got her support team on the phone. And they actually did a role play on the phone. Here are the questions that you'll probably be asked. How are you going to respond? And they gave her feedback on each one. What a Marvelous learning opportunity for everybody involved by the way. She got the job So I just don't want to look for my managers I want to look for my allies colleagues that I've worked with you know Well, what did you think? How did I do? What could I've done better? What impact did I have on you? And I want to ask past managers, you know when you worked with me What did you see? How could I have done it? But what was I doing? Well, why do we always have to start with you know? Well, what was my weak spot?

30:35Because that will shut you down anyway. So, Ella, you've gotten all this feedback. What should you do after you've gotten it? Do you run off and take notes? What do you do to make sure you absorb it and act on it? I think you sit down and you process. It's very hard to make sense of all this information that you're getting about you.

31:00So if I've taken notes and I like to take notes, I like to tell person, you know, I want to take some notes here if you don't mind. I'd like to go back in my office, even go home, have a cup of tea, have a cup of coffee, whatever. And I want to sit down and read over my notes. I want to rethink the conversation. And then I want to come up with maybe three things that I want to do to respond to that feedback.

31:28those things that I want to do more of, those things that I might need to, you know, let go of a little bit, and those things that I'm going to dare to do, some new things I'm going to try, I'm going to take some risks. And here are the resources I'm going to need because we want people to change behaviorally, but that's very hard to do if you don't have support.

31:54and if you don't have resources. So part of my resources might be taking a course. Part of my resources might be doing a podcast. Part of my resources might be reading a book. Part of my resources might be taking a workshop, all right? And then my support, well, I'm gonna look for my allies that can tell me, well, yeah, that would be really hard for you to do, because you know you're uncomfortable speaking out.

32:23If I'm introverted, then I might want to say, you know, I'm going to re-quiet by Susan Cain, but then I'm going to find a way to use my voice at selective moments. I don't want to be uncomfortable, but I need to be a little bit uncomfortable here. So I'm going to ask my support team, my allies, managers that I might have had in the past. I might even ask a professor that I've had. You know, help me push.

32:48you know, call me up sometimes and ask me where, you know, have I done it? Did I take that step? What was the result? I'm gonna ask my mentor, you know, I'm gonna try my little nervous, but, you know, I need you when I try to fall off and not do it anymore. I need you to tell me get back up and keep doing it. Ella, thank you so much for joining us today. You're so welcome. I had it. Did you have a good time? I had a blast. Let's do this again. We had a fantastic time. We had a great time.

33:19Something Ella kept emphasizing is ask for specific examples. You know, we get vague feedback all the time for it to be helpful whether we're getting constructive negative feedback or positive feedback. We want to ask for examples. But I think that's harder to do than it sounds, especially when you're asking for positive examples. Like if someone is telling me I did a great job, it would be very hard for me to say, can you tell me specifically like what I did that was so great and speak into the microphone?

33:49So how do you make that sound less self-serving? I would say, you know what? I'm really so happy to hear that, but I can't even think of an example of a time that I did that. Help me. That's good. Yes, I think...

34:07That is a great lead in. I think if the praise is like, you had a great year. You're really doing excellent work. That is so vague. It's not helpful at all. So I think you'd start with what Amy said. Thank you so much. I'm so relieved to hear that. I'm so glad to hear that. I want to make sure next year is even better. Are there some specific things you think I should focus on? Or were there specific projects that you want to see me continue? And you kind of guide the person that way. That's helpful. The question Ella asked that stuck with me that I think Robin also mentioned was talking about the impact on other people. And I know that's something that always has helped me accept feedback more. If someone comes and says, this is feedback I got earlier in my career, you're too stressed out. Well, whatever, that's my own issue. But if someone comes and says to me, you know, Sarah, you really show your stress and the impact on the team is to stress out everyone else. I'm like, oh, shoot, well, I can change that if it's affecting other people. So I think making that connection clear.

35:06Really helpful. You know, it's so interesting because a lot of a lot of times especially when I'm dealing with younger people and women a lot of feedback is about Demonstrating to them that they have impact on the world around them that they're not sitting alone isolated. I mean helping people assume their place in the organism of this business of this office, you know is part of helping a new employee Become part of the team, right?

35:38Something that stuck with me talking to Ella was that when you get feedback we focused on what to do when you get negative feedback But I think it applies to positive feedback too like not to respond right away or not feel like you have to react immediately You know you can take a few seconds to pause because I think I do this thing where if I'm getting constructive feedback I'll just agree right away and become a little more deferential and just say oh yeah good point I see that I do these things myself, but then like I'll go back to my desk and think about it that night and be like, wait, no, there are all these other things. I don't completely agree with it. And then it'll be like a personal battle for me about whether I should bring it up again or how to move forward with it, basically. So I liked the advice to take time to process something. Think about what you agree with, maybe what you want further information about. And that might be more useful to you. The genuine curiosity there is so important, too.

36:36having the tone of voice that's curious and not defensive. But also when I think about times that that approach has worked for me, it's because I literally didn't understand the feedback. And I really had to be like, it wasn't an act. It was like, tell me more about what you're saying. Cause I'm happy. I really want to make sure I get this right. Yeah. That worked. Oh, and it's, that's a really poignant thing to hear when you're giving feedback, when someone says, I really want to get this right. It really allows you to be as the person giving feedback as the manager to be completely generous. Because giving,

37:06negative feedback is not easy either. Now it's definitely harder to get it than it is to give. I don't care what anyone says, but you really want to get past the atmospherics and down to the real point of this conversation. That's our show. I'm Sarah Greencar Michael. I'm Nicole Torres. And I'm Amy Bernstein. Our producer is Amanda Cursey. Our audio product manager is Adam Buckholz. Maureen Hoek is our supervising editor. We get production help from Rob Eckhart and Isis Madrid.

37:39We are halfway through season two. We'd like your feedback about what we're doing, the show, the discussion guides, the online group, all of it. Email us at women at work at hbr.org. And if you haven't yet checked out the discussion guides or joined our online group, please do. There are links to them in our episode notes and on our website. Thanks for listening. We could have even just say, like, just search for HBR Women at Work podcast.

38:26On Google? On your favorite browsing platform. Wherever you search for information online. If you haven't yet checked out the discussion guides or joined the online group, what's keeping you? Search for women. Swipe right. Oh my god. Right the right way, right?