Women at Work - When You’re Responsible for Eldercare

0:06You're listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. I'm Amy Bernstein. I'm Nicole Torres. And I'm Amy Gallo. At some point in our careers, most of us will be taking care of another adult, a parent with Parkinson's, a spouse going through chemotherapy, a friend who's had a stroke. Sometimes we see the need for elder care coming and can plan for it. Sometimes people need us suddenly and we can't. There are often a lot of difficult conversations and decisions and responsibilities involved.

0:36It's like having another job. The extra work takes a heavy toll, including at the job we get paid to do, which is why we're talking about how to cope with elder care, both when you're the caregiver or when someone on your team is. Our guest expert is Ann Bardahl. She is a professor at Swinburne Business School in Melbourne. I wasn't able to join the interview, so the Amy's will take it from here. Hi, Ann, this is Amy Gallo. And I'm Amy Bernstein, so we're making it easy for you.

1:03Oh, thank you. I can't not forget your name. No, that's right. Well, you can. One of us will answer. Yes. Let's start with how you got into this field. What led you to start doing research on elder care? Well, I'd always been interested in looking at work life, work family issues. So I had that background, but it was actually personal reason which made me become interested in looking at the issue of care and it started actually on a Friday night and I received a phone call to say that my father had died of a massive heart attack and all of a sudden I was in a situation where I was responsible to care for my mother who was suffering from Alzheimer's, but also my brother who is autistic and can't live independently. He'd always lived with my family and my parents. And so in one moment, I became responsible for care of two people who are very important in my life, my mother and my brother.

2:22And how did you carry that into the research? Like what questions were you really looking to answer for yourself and for others in this research? Well, one of the things that became apparent to me was there wasn't, I'm not saying there was no research looking at the issue of care and care of dependence, but there wasn't a lot of research looking at how you as a carer experience this situation, how it's linked to issues such as depression, which was something that I also experienced, one because of the loss of a much loved father, but also seeing my mother who was a high school English teacher declining into the depths of Alzheimer's. So I wanted to know...

3:16what's out there looking at this issue of care. And there had been some research looking at the issue of the sandwich generation, so somebody who had dependent children but was also responsible for the care of a parent. But there hadn't been much looking at, well what about if it's the care of somebody who's frail or who's sick with a disease such as Alzheimer's, or you're looking after a dependent family member who's an adult such as my brother. There wasn't a lot of research looking at that. So that's really what sparked my interest. Got it. So how did caring for your mother and your brother affect your career? It was interesting because all of a sudden you are faced with just a whole lot of practicalities of

4:10having to cope. One cope with being put into that intensive care world and I didn't have any other siblings who could help me and I can remember just coincidentally at the same time I was applying for a professorial position at another university and then I received the phone call on the Friday night and I was meant to actually be going to an interview the following week. And I can remember sort of speaking to the head of department who said, well, we'd really want someone who can hit the ground running and be totally focused on what they're doing. And I remember just thinking, there's absolutely no way I can hit the ground running. I'm not in a position to do that. So I actually withdrew from that particular position, which I think I probably had a very good chance of getting. And I have to say,

5:04for about the next 12 months, my research career really suffered. I mean it was just going through all the practicalities. There's the financial, there's the medical, there was organising accommodation of assisted living for my brother. I just, you know, I didn't have the energy if you like to do anything other than do my normal.

5:25days at work plus the other day or other job if you like was looking after two dependent adults. Now unfortunately my mother passed away several years ago so now I don't have two people but I still have my brother and he has mental health issues as well as being autistic so you know for example last week I got a phone call to say you know look we need can you come around Peter's having some issues and you know basically I have to drop everything. One thing that's positive about working in academia is you tend to have a fair bit of flexibility. So I was able to do that. But I think it would be very difficult in a more, you know, a job that has, you know, less flexibility to be able to drop everything and go and provide that type of assistance. And is this what you find in your research that women who are people who are responsible for caring for adults?

6:23family members, their careers suffer as a result necessarily? Yeah, look, there certainly is some evidence. I know that CARES Australia, which is a non-profit organization, has gathered a number of statistics. And what they find is that particularly if you're caring for a child with a disability and that child, that person can be an adult as well, or if you're caring for a partner that often the situation is that the person and it's predominantly women who are responsible for care has to leave the workforce. Not always but that's one of the issues that we've actually certainly Carers Australia have actually documented.

7:09You mentioned that it's mostly women. I'm curious if your research or others' research has indicated why that is. Why does this responsibility most often fall to women? Well, I think it comes down to the stuff that I know you both would be aware of in terms of...

7:29gender norm stereotypes that women are generally the you know the family carers and I mean I can only speak for the Australian results but I'm sure they'd be replicated in the United States and also Europe that when we looked at who was actually doing the care in like it's well up to the 90% of the time, it's the woman in the family situation who is responsible for that care. When it's not, it's the male partner taking care of their spouse. I know that's been true for many, many years, but are you seeing any sign of change? I mean, we know that fathers are taking more of a hand in child rearing, for example, are we seeing any greater contribution from men in elder care? The results from the Australian survey that I was analysing, and this is based on the Hilda survey, which is a very

8:36large data set that we have here is basically no. I mean, you would hope so. And certainly men are taking more care, more responsibility in terms of childcare. We're not seeing it at the elder care level yet. And in the Australian context, we also find that there's a high percentage of women already working part time. So in that sense, there's more availability to provide care. In fact, Australia has one of the highest percentage of women working in the part-time workforce, I think in terms of the OSCD only second to the Netherlands. So it's probably a slightly different dynamic than what you find in the United States. Even when I've looked at some of the international studies, they still mirror the fact that women are more likely to provide the care, particularly in relation to elder care. You talked about the impact

9:34for you personally on your career, it's hard to imagine that having two full-time jobs essentially wouldn't have an impact on your primary job. What is your research show about what the impact is? Look, some of the qualitative research that we've started to do, and I have to be upfront, we haven't finished it, but what it's actually showing is what has been referred to as compassion fatigue. And I certainly know that I sometimes experience that. I sort of feel, can't someone just look after me for a while? Actually, what we're drawing out is a distinction between what's the impact of different types of care relationships and depression. And there's several things that we've found, and that is women who care for their partners

10:30or adult children tend to suffer from more depression or higher levels of depression, I should say, than women who look after their own parents. And one of the things that I think this points to is the fact that women who are looking after a partner, and I know this occurred with my own father, looking after my mother, it often becomes quite isolating. It's difficult to take out your spouse who has advanced Alzheimer's to social situations. One, because it can be quite confusing for the spouse who has a dementia related disease. And it can be sometimes, I know my father would sometimes feel embarrassed and things like this because of how mum was. And the same with an adult child. Yeah. I mean, you mentioned compassion fatigue.

11:26In a previous episode about working motherhood, we talked about how caring for young children can be additive to your career because it actually makes you more empathetic to the people you work with. And it's from what I'm here, from what you're saying, really this sort of caring for an adult, especially an aging parent or a sick brother, for example, is really just a draw on your resources.

11:56quite additive to your work? Yeah, it's not additive, I think, in terms of how you're describing with children. I mean, I think one of the things that I learnt, which I certainly could apply in the workplace, is the skill of your life of being patient. I don't think I was a particularly patient person before I had children, but I certainly learnt how to be patient because you'd go nuts if you didn't. Indeed. I think there is something that you transfer from looking after an elderly parent, I think I'm more empathetic now than I probably ever have been to people with different needs. And I think recognising that often, in one sense you can talk about somebody's kids with them at work, we don't often have a conversation about elderly parents and they're sick and they're old or brothers who have autism or

12:53whatever. So I've now realized that people come to work with all sorts of things that you don't know about them. And I think that's probably the transfer that you actually get. Right. So caring for a parent isn't confined to women in their middle age. It can happen earlier. With younger women who are caring for their elders, Often, they're in a phase of their career where they've been identified as high potentials and they're really trying to accelerate their careers. Do you have any thoughts about how this is playing out? Have you seen anything? Yeah, look, it becomes really difficult. That's the reality. If you thrust into a caring role,

13:46and you're at that point in your career from late 30s to your early 50s and you're in that situation where often you're established, you might be over the early child rearing stage and all of a sudden you've got opportunities are opening up and then you find yourself having to care for an elderly relative.

14:14you can't say to an elderly relative, I'm not going to look after you. It's something that you have to do. And even if you're in my situation with my mother, she was in a care facility, which was a fantastic facility, but I would still visit her every day and I would still responsible for her finances and taking her to a specialist's doctor's appointments, et cetera, et cetera. There is no Easy you can't subcontract that work out. It's still done by you So what advice would you offer to particularly to a younger woman facing this challenge? Look a number of things one thing I would say and it's something I didn't do and I always wish I had is start having a conversation with your parents about What they want if in the future things

15:14they do need some more assistance with their care. I never did that and I was suddenly thrust into a situation where I had to provide that care. The other thing I'd realise and this sort of relates to the resilience research for most of us that intensive care role at the maximum goes for about two years or one year. So in one sense...

15:41One recommendation I would have is sometimes we just accept the situation We're in and one and that makes it a bit easier. I mean I also had support from my husband. He was great, but it was still my mother that I was looking after and she in one sense wanted me She didn't want anyone else. So I'm actually glad that I did pull back from my career for a while I mean I still managed to stay in it but I'm glad because I did have that time with my mother. Every now and again there would be a little time when my mother was there. It might only be for half a minute or a minute. But it was lovely to see it when she did come back out of the mist that sells diamonds. Yeah. You're talking about your husband providing support. It also seems like a piece of advice would be to

16:33gather support, emotional support if it's not logistical support. And that's a really good point, Amy. I had several friends who are really, really supportive who sometimes I just talk to and I suppose have a little bit of a A cry too. I mean I know with mum at the end when you know she was very very ill I'd come out from seeing her and I'd just sit in the car and cry because it was you know this highly intelligent woman being reduced to nothing and I did have some friends that I would talk to about that and so I think your point about gathering those people who Can give you that supports a really important part of it as well and being able to share that but I

17:22I seem to be in my friendship group, the first person who went through looking after an elderly relative and now those friends are actually going through, or one is in particular, going through it themselves and I'm providing her that support which she provided me. I can't help but think that if you were in the situation of going out on maternity leave, for example, that people would have been quite supportive. Most workplaces expect that women may likely bear some child-carrying responsibility at some point. But it seems like workplaces aren't making the assumption that women are going to have these responsibilities and certainly aren't preparing for these cases. Why is that? Look, I agree. Workplaces are not... It's not on their horizon in many cases.

18:20Both the United States and Australia have an ageing population. That demographic is not going to go away. So we're going to find increasingly people are going to be coming to work and they're going to have these responsibilities of elder care and dependent care of frail and ill relatives and friends for that matter. So it's something that we need to tackle.

18:46One of the top things that people need is often that as needs or emergency care in the sense that if I really need to, can I take the time off? Because often what you find yourself in is a situation where it's...

19:04Unpredictable you start the day off and you don't know that you're going to need to provide that person with care. So I take the example last week of my brother. I didn't know in the morning that I was going to have to go out and see him. So it's that as needs care and if you have an organization that has a culture which is.

19:24Basically supportive of the whole employee bringing themselves to work you'll get that and we find that small businesses are often actually better because your boss knows you and knows that your mother's sick or knows that your father's sick or whatever it be and will give you that care. I'm curious about that conversation with an employer. So when should we be having these conversations? Because for you, for example, it was a Friday night. It happened suddenly. Do you wish you had talked with people at work prior to that? Yeah, it's an interesting one. And I've thought about this. I actually don't know the answer to it.

20:05I think in one sense what would be easier for employees is if workplaces recognise this in their own discourse that they promote to the employees so that it's okay to have that conversation that care is not just about young children but it's also can be in a broader sense and I think that would have made it easier for me to have that conversation and I know for example my I'm in a new job at now and I can remember my manager saying if any of you ever have any issues with family related I'm always happy to provide you flexibility. You know, make it known that you do recognize people come to work with other responsibilities outside of work. And that can open up the conversation as well. Also, if you are as a manager aware that someone is going through this sort of situation, making it clear that you can be flexible and help them

21:15accommodate the needs of their parents, whoever they're caring for, actually sends a signal to the whole organization, right? Yeah, because everyone knows you did it with that one person, right? And that opens the door. Absolutely. It's tricky because you don't talk about people's personal situation. Sure, but information gets around. Well, that's the kind of information you hope would get around.

21:45Well, I think what your manager said to you, and I'm not remembering ever having a boss who said that, who said, if you have family demands that require flexibility, please talk to me about it. I mean, I've gone to request that, but I'm not sure anyone's ever preemptively said it. Well, I can honestly say it's the first time in my work career that anyone's actually said that.

22:10to you know in an open forum and it makes me she's a fabulous manager and it makes a lot of difference and it's not you know it's that classic thing it's not only if you need it yourself at the time but you also feel better about the place that you work that it you know is going to support other people as well. Yeah and the other thing I will say is often the flexibility is needed for a relatively short time.

22:40In the sense it's for me it was actually Getting my head about how I'd organized things. There was immediate things that I needed to organize and once I'd got everything in a more settled pattern and under a routine I didn't actually need You know the flexibility to continue so that's the other thing that I would say from an employer manager point of view often it's something it's the flexibility in the short term, it's not necessarily going to go on forever. Right, and that's what I've heard other people say as well, that sometimes it's a quite small accommodation, right? Someone needs to leave early on Friday to drive to see where their parents, you know, to where their parents live, and they need to do that once a month, right? It's not a, you know, a completely reworking of the entire schedule.

23:33Yeah, exactly. And so that might be something that you put in place. In the immediate term, it might mean somebody needs a week off work. But often, generally speaking, it's about those small things that you can actually do for somebody. And we know from the research that when you give people that sort of flexibility or that sort of support, they pay you back in terms of being more engaged and more committed to the workplace.

24:03You mentioned that you, you know, prioritized family, which meant pulling back a bit from your career, but you mentioned earlier that you also stayed involved. And I'm curious how, how you did that and whether that's something you would tell people who are moving to part time or requesting these arrangements, whether that's something you'd advise. No, I didn't completely pull out and I was actually glad to have work as well. Even though it was difficult, it was an escape.

24:32one level from everything else that was going on. And you know, there's a lot about academic work, which is, you know, it's interesting and it's rewarding. So I think I was really lucky that the job itself has a fair degree of flexibility and I could actually still keep in touch with, you know, work and you know, at least taking classes and things like that, which psychologically also was a form of support as well. It was difficult to keep the two going, but it also was a help that I did have work. Right. And that seems to connect to what you were saying earlier also about recognizing that this is temporary. So completely leaving a job or a career and assuming that's all behind you would be a mistake because this is not a permanent status.

25:28And I certainly wouldn't recommend somebody, if you're enjoying your job, I wouldn't recommend anyone to opt out of the job at all. Try and make arrangements so that you can actually have some flexibility in that short term that you're going to need. And you're also going to need it because there's an adjustment period for you as well. I found it terribly confronting looking after my mother for that initial period because my father had actually often hidden how bad my mother was, you know, bad health wise I'm talking about that mother was. And it wasn't until I realized just how, how unwell she was, how much the dementia was affecting her that, and then, you know, you sort of grieve again for the loss of, you know, of who you think.

26:26your parent is. So it's a difficult one. It really is. Yeah. So some women aren't going to be able to do what you did. You know, some women are going to have to pull back from their careers either totally or for the most part to care for their parents. For some women, this is going to mean giving up professional dreams, professional aspirations.

26:55How would you advise them to deal with this kind of disappointment? You know, they sacrifice and that is going to be difficult. What would you say to them? Oh, wow. You know, it's a really difficult one.

27:18I look, I recognise that I was lucky that I could still keep in the workforce at one level while I was going through this, but not everyone's going to be in that situation. That's for sure that you're not necessarily going to have a job that can provide you with that flexibility. And it might be that you need, you know, I mean, first of all, I'd go through trying to, you know, see if you can negotiate flexible work arrangements, et cetera, with your workplace. But if that's not possible and you have to actually withdraw from the workforce, it's going to be a really difficult thing for you. What I would say is at one level, I didn't regret looking after my mother. I don't regret looking after my brother. I think if I hadn't, that would have left me with regret. If that makes sense. But I would be trying to...

28:15I think what we need to do is we need to push back with organisations and say, look, this is what I need. That it would be an end resort, if you like, of totally opting out of the workplace. I'd be opting for the position of pushing back and saying, I need this. I've been a good employee. I need this for now. Can you give it to me?

28:40coping with having to opt out. I think that's a really difficult one. It will not be easy at all. I'm finding this conversation incredibly helpful. And my husband and I both have parents who are divorced and remarried. So we actually have seven parents between the two of us. Wow. In some ways, I feel this looming future.

29:08You know responsibility in front of us and it's helpful to start to think about what is that gonna mean for us mentally but also career-wise and it feels like an unknown But it's helpful to start thinking about it One thing having gone through it start thinking about it earlier than when you're actually confronted with it. I I had to sort of face it all of a sudden. So having a conversation with those family members now I think is important. There is also just practicalities in terms of sorting out powers of attorney and financial arrangements and how you're going to deal with your other siblings and you know what actual help is out there. Do you want your

30:00family member to go in some form of assisted living. So there's all various types of care arrangements too. Looking into those things and having a consideration of those things I think is actually really important. I've got a lot of work to do. I think if there's one thing we can take away from this is that this is going to come and you have to be prepared emotionally.

30:30You have to plan, you have to think about the contingencies and having the conversations up front with your family members, with the rest of the family and within your organization, with your manager, with your team to get a common understanding is helpful. It doesn't make it easy, but it makes it a little easier.

30:58When I think even thinking about who in your organization has gone through this and what worked for them, I mean, I can think of people that we've worked with Amy here that have had situations like this. Right now it's making me think I should go talk to those people, you know, find out what worked for them, also see if we could offer some more support.

31:19Look I think that's an excellent, opening up the conversations I think is actually important and I found that since I've been in this situation I've had more of these conversations. It's amazing how many people are going through different types of care arrangements. One of my other colleagues has a severely disabled child and I started talking to him about not recognising all of the issues that he faces with looking after this child. And this child now is 17 and in the Australian context you don't get as much support from the school environment and the government. So he's facing that.

32:05But I think just having the conversation in one sense is a help to him, you know, because otherwise it's sort of like you feel alone, you feel isolated about these things. Right. Well, Anne, we're out of time, but thank you so much for sharing your experience and your research. It's been really helpful. Oh, look, it's been great to talk to both of you. Thank you so much. And thank you for putting this topic on the agenda. I don't think it's going to go away.

32:34We've touched upon how challenging it is to be looking after both children and adults while having a day job. A decade ago and fairly early in her career, a listener named Laura was thrust into elder care on top of childcare and she's had to figure out how to manage all that. So we don't have a particularly special or unique family situation and it's not tragic in any way. It's just normal and still challenging.

33:04While Laura was in Boston for business, she came by our studio to talk with our producer, Amanda Cursey. Laura is now in her mid-40s, and she's self-employed as an executive coach. Her husband is a doctor, their daughter is 14, their son's 12, and she's thankful that the kids have gotten to grow up with both sets of grandparents around. And at the same time, living, aging grandparents, both sets are local.

33:29Which helps a lot although that is something that was by design because my parents were in Texas for a long time and that was hard when I was working my kids were Babies and my parents were starting to have health problems and I was having to commute and deal with it so they eventually came to us which has Still been challenging, but certainly better than getting on airplanes and dealing with babysitters and stuff like that Yes. What are the sorts of health problems that your parents are dealing with? Again, nothing dramatic. The usual kind of parts not working the same anymore. As you age and my father said, a couple of pretty serious cardiac interventions. He's on the backside of those now, but you're never quite the same in your mid-70s.

34:23had valve replacements and all of that kind of stuff. You know, everybody's on every kind of blood pressure med and just all these different medicines that they have to take and keep track of. And one grandparent was recently diagnosed with rheumatism. So that's kind of a tricky new territory that we're in with that. Yeah. So again, nothing acute, but a lot of not acute stuff going on. How was caring for them different when they were living far from you than it is now when they live close to you? So when, well, first of all, they were 10 years younger. So the mental acuity was better. At the same time, the health issues then were much more acute.

35:22That was intense when they were far away and needed a lot now the difference is they're closer and In some ways healthier even though they're older. They're like more stable, but but it's Constant so with like when they lived in Texas there would be these spikes where like an entire week of my life would blow up And I'd be there dealing with that and then I come home and I kind of wouldn't think about it again for a month or something like that or more and now it's like Some part of every week is invaded at differing levels of intensity with something that's going on. And it's not always healthcare related sometimes. It's like my son had a little ceremony at school and I invited them to come. And then the day before, and I started getting all these frantic texts during a client meeting of, where are you? We're here. There's nothing happening.

36:18chapel's empty Then I have to excuse myself for the client meeting and you know the wrong day they had the wrong day just straight up the wrong day So now it's like shots on goal like text reminder email reminder phone call reminder Not because it's so essential to have them there necessarily I know they want to be there but more because I want to avoid a situation where they are frustrated because they got it wrong and You know, that happens to everybody, but I'm managing a lot of logistics and memory stuff in a way that I didn't have to 10 years ago. And it's interesting because my mental bandwidth as a working mom, it's like 10 years ago, so my kids was 10 years ago.

37:06four and two. Like all I could think about, I'd be at work trying to focus on work and I'd be thinking, oh, I hope this doesn't happen. I hope this doesn't happen. Oh, you know, should have done this, should have done that. I forgot to tell the nanny this. And now, I mean, I think about my kids, but they're pretty self-sufficient. So kind of, I know they're gonna find me one way or the other. So there's so much more technologically savvy than I am. And it's my...

37:32sets of parents that are the ones that are kind of invading the day in terms of a caregiver thread of thinking and kind of that background worry that's kind of always going on less on my kids now more on The elders in the family does that make sense that shift? Yeah, it's weird. It's not something I'm like really would have predicted it makes sense if you think about it, but mm-hmm. Yeah So take me through a day or a week of how your parents or your in-laws might invade or like intervene in your work life. What does that look like for you? So, fortunately, it's not frequent. But that's the worry, right? That the frequency will go up. So part of what part of the mental scramble I'm doing

38:32All the time is what's my model for how I'm gonna deal with this the next time if it's worse or different or whatever so let me separate the two sets of parents if I could because They're different They're they're kind of care models are different. So my parents I think are less healthy in most ways than my in-laws But they're quite well resourced and so actually our old nanny for my children works full-time for my parents and my sisters and I Arranged that so we don't have to pay for it. Thank goodness. I think that would be prohibitive and so I'm lucky there because I can either coordinate with my parents or I can go through her and I'll do that sometimes I'll text her or call her and say what's What's the vibe there today? Do I need to stop by and she'll be like no

39:24No, it's great everybody's happy or she'll say all your mom seems a little depressed today She hasn't gotten out of bed and then I'll just swing by with one of the grandkids in the afternoon or something like that So they have a pretty good setup But we were really intentional about that and we were lucky I think my in-laws are relatively healthier, but they don't have such a good setup so when stuff goes wrong with them then You got to be a little more hands-on. Yeah Of course, a week like this where I'm here, this is a harder deal. And so I imagine many women can reflect on that feeling of getting on a plane or a train and into a car and just saying a little prayer of whatever sort they prefer, a little bargain with the universe, just to let that four days that you're gone or three days or five days or whatever it is be like quiet and calm.

40:23in no major events. And a bit a lot of people live like that. Yeah, I think so. I live like that. So how does traveling with the worry that something might go wrong at home? Somebody might have a health crisis or there might be a need that the babysitter or somebody else can't fill. What is it like to travel with that anxiety?

40:56Well, it's stressful obviously like it takes it. I'm sure it takes a toll Emotionally that I'm not completely Alert to it must undermine focus at times although I like most working moms have become a professional compartmentalizer, but what is the hidden cost of that? Emotional management, that's what it feels like I feel like I'm managing my emotions and I'm like coaching myself. I'm like, okay All right, so I got here's how the kids are covered. I checked in with Anna who takes care of my parents Pretty sure the in-laws are set up and my sister-in-laws around like I you know like I just can't do anything without constantly Running through my checklists. I imagine it would feel different if I didn't need all of those checklists It's not that I want to get rid of them. Let me be clear like that's not the alternative

41:54because that's what gives you a rich life. But I would bet you it takes a toll in ways that I don't fully understand or appreciate. When do you think you started taking care of your parents or your in-laws in some way? Well, was there a first incident? Yeah, yeah, there was. And that was, gosh, I'm trying to think. So my son would have been two and my mother had a stroke.

42:22It was a really severe one. And I remember I was in the office and I called my boss and I said, my mother had a stroke and I have to immediately go to Texas and help my dad. And we just kind of shut down some pieces of work I was doing. We had the luxury of doing that at the time. And at that point you weren't working for yourself. I was not working for myself. This is important. And how old were you? 34. Okay.

42:52Yeah, 34 with a four year old two year old and I was about 11 years into a great job that I loved absolutely loved like would have continued indefinitely for sure and so then I Came back and then you know my mother had a really a miraculous recovery to her credit and commitment But that all is part of the backstory of them eventually coming out here once she had recovered. It's also the backstory of why I eventually left a consulting firm model and went into business for myself because I needed more flexibility. And I can't put all of that on.

43:33You know kind of the elder care part of the story what was also happening is I was traveling a lot for work and my children were very young and it was really hard on them and hard on me hard on my husband and so I just felt like from above and below I was getting these signals that was not a model that was going to be sustainable I was lucky enough to have the kind of training where I could I like I can work for myself I can kind of Not perfectly, like dial it up, dial it down, travel more, travel less. So that's actually worked out really well. But I would have had a very different career, I believe, had I stayed. What do you think it would have been like? I think I would be a partner in a big consulting firm, and I would be making probably three or four times what I make now. Would I make that trade off in retrospect? I don't think so. But is it an opportunity cost of flexibility? You bet it is. Do you think you're...

44:30parents or your in-laws are aware of the opportunity costs that you've had to help them and to care for them? No, I don't think so. That got packaged as a mom choice. And was that your decision to package it like that? Yeah. It was dominantly a mom choice, like 70-30, but I would be lying if I said that.

44:59They also weren't in the back of my mind as I was trying to figure out what to do with my career that would allow me to be more flexible when the proverbial poop was hitting the fan, which during that period really was like my early 30s. It was just very intense with a lot of it's actually much calmer now. Interestingly, even though they're older, we just had a lot of bad stuff happening and with little kids and trying to work.

45:29Did you want to protect your parents and your in-laws from knowing how they were affecting you? I think so. And I know my parents would be really frustrated with me if they thought I was holding back in any way on their behalf. I mean, they'd be almost angry, you know, like, really? We pumped all this money into you education-wise and all this love and support and then you're, you know, cutting corners for us. Don't do that.

45:59So but just probably why I don't talk the trade-offs that I make I just sort of make them and keep it quiet How are you adjusting your career now or making decisions about your professional future? Taking your parents and your in-laws into consideration So for me, I would say indirectly and what I mean by that is I'm enjoying what I'm doing now. So it's not necessarily that them being a factor is a direct influencer over my decision. But I'm also doing what I do now because it's convenient to being responsive to stuff that happens. And I can envision a change like working more or traveling more or differently or changing my home base or something like that in a world where I'm not having to think about their care.

47:03Like would you move? Can you move? I might. Yeah, because at this point you have so many people. Oh, yeah, now I've created an entire constellation of people. Let's say, okay, let's play out a scenario. Let's say my kids go to college. I mean, they're gonna. They're better. So they're on. Let's say there are no more grandparents.

47:31Right that's like certainly a possibility. Yeah, I mean it's inevitable. It's not just a it is the possibility We don't we of course don't know the timing. We don't know how it's all gonna play out. We don't know the emotional impact it will have but Could I imagine a world where my kids are out of the house and I don't have all of these ties and responsibilities would I move somewhere else I might I could I have a couple of candidates in mind city-wise that I would love to have sort of life experience there. But that's not in the cards right now. That's just not possible. I think a lot of women plan their professional lives around having children, for example, and the expectations to care for children. But did you expect to have these adult caregiving responsibilities? No, I never thought about it.

48:32before you were 34. Yeah, 34 years old, just suddenly dealing with that stuff in a very acute way was hard. And had no mental model for it. That's kind of your point, right? Like you start to develop a mental model for the mothering part, but there's more discourse about it. So that helps. The thing about the elder care discussion is it's not as obvious. People don't talk about it. They don't disclose the same way.

49:01If they're leaving to deal with a sick parent, the way they're like, I'm going to my son's soccer game, that's like a discussable thing. The other stuff isn't necessarily or just isn't. I don't know why I don't hear people talking about it that much to you. I hear, I wonder, I do. And I wonder if it's because I'm somewhat open about that my mom is sick and that I have care given responsibilities and like restrictions. So it may be that maybe people open up to you a little bit more because I I am aware of certain people's caregiving eldercare responsibilities, but that may be just because I put it out there. Yeah. So yeah, so the whole the expectation in the really just a mental model around what that's going to look and feel like and when it's going to happen was not on my radar screen at all. The way that like when I got pregnant I was like, all right, we're on the path. You know, I had like this whole.

49:58vision in my mind of what that was gonna be like, which of course none of it was, but at least I had a plan, but the elder care stuff I felt like came like a lightning bolt out of the sky and there weren't even clouds and suddenly I felt like I just totally grew up really fast. Have there been positive things for you that have come from taking on this elder care responsibility?

50:31And if there's not, it's okay. I mean, they're not tangible, right? So more connectedness in time with my parents that I otherwise might not have taken like I barely saw them in my 20s, you know, I was gone. I lived in Boston and I was traveling all the time for work and I was just gone and so then I got kind of pulled back down to earth in a way that is probably a good thing in the long run for my relationship with them and time with them if you develop empathy when you're dealing with someone who loves health constraints and trauma and fear and sadness and all of that it just I don't know it like seasons you as a person so and I do consider those benefits and I do in the type of work I do where I'm coaching people

51:28around their leadership development, but also their communication and their interpersonal skills and basic humanity like being a seasoned person and having a lot of empathy is a really handy thing. So I do think it's benefited me, but intangibly. Do you think of yourself as a caregiver? I think of myself as a care coordinator. I think of myself as a care CEO. So I'm not down there in the trenches.

51:59For better or for worse, that's just not the model that I use. I'm not the most remote seat. I'm not the care chairman where I'm truly outsourcing or like I can jump in and be hands on. But I'm not, I don't think of myself as a caregiver. I'm really not doing that. I'm really not preparing meals or bathing or I'm not nursing. I'm not doing anything like that. That is a caregiver. And I would bet you that takes a completely different kind of toll.

52:27on you than what I'm talking about. Mine would be a more distant kind of toll of like ambient worry about the coordination and making sure things are happening and things are resourced and everybody's getting communicated with and people know what to do when, so that's Care CEO. That's what I am. That's interesting. I haven't heard that term before. I haven't either. I just made it up. That was smart. Yeah. That's our show. I'm Nicole Torres. I'm Amy Gallo. And I'm Amy Bernstein. Our producer is Amanda Curse.

53:01Our audio product manager is Adam Buchholz. Maureen Hoek is our supervising editor. We get technical help from Rob Eckhart. Erica Truxler makes our discussion guides. J.M. Olajars is our copy editor.