Worklife with Molly Graham - How to say no | from WorkLife with Adam Grant

0:05Hey everyone, so something I've been working on in my life lately is getting better at saying no. I really like making people happy, so saying no is hard for me. But it's getting more and more important, protecting my energy, spending time with my family, making sure that I only say yes to the things that are really important.

0:25So I went back recently and re-listened to an old work life episode. Adam did an episode a couple of years ago on saying no. And it's really great. So I wanted to share it with all of you today because it was super helpful to me to revisit it. So I thought it might help some of you. This is a topic I'm really excited to keep exploring. I'm looking for a great guest to come on and talk about it. But unfortunately, all the people I've asked to come on and talk about saying no, experts at boundaries and things like that. Well, they've all said no. So while our search continues for the perfect guest on this topic, I hope you enjoy this old episode of Forklift. When my wife Allison and I became parents, one of the first gifts we got was the classic book, The Giving Tree. We remembered it having a meaningful message about generosity. But when we reread it, we found it disturbing and we weren't alone.

1:25It was desperately sad. Meet Topher Payne. I am a playwright and teacher in Atlanta. I think of you as, like, the ultimate repairman for broken children's books. I'll absolutely take that. One of Topher's projects is writing new endings for classic children's books. In 2020, he picked up the giving tree for the first time since childhood. To refresh your memory, here's the gist.

1:53Once there was a tree and the tree loved the boy and every day the little boy would come and play in the tree's branches and they had a marvelous friendship. But as the boy grows up he starts asking for things and the tree always says yes. First it's apples. Eventually it's wood to build a house.

2:11And the tree gives her branches, which do grow back, but they grow back so much slower. But she gives them up because she loves the boy. And then he wants to build a boat, and so on and so on, until the tree is nothing but a sad little stump, and there is nothing left of her. And the boy comes back as an old man, and she has nothing left to give, and he sits on her. The end.

2:41The most fucked up part of the story is the ending, where the tree is reduced to a literal stump, and it says, and the tree was happy. Yeah. Like, what the hell are you talking about? The tree isn't happy, the tree hardly exists anymore. No! You know, the most common hot take that I hear on the story is that it is an allegory for maternal.

3:04love. You just give everything that you have to your child and then you see them thriving and they are so happy. And the two things that I want to say to that are one, no, that's not how motherhood should work. And two, the boy is not happy.

3:26There is nothing in the story that indicates that this behavior results in the boy being happy. The boy always comes back seeking more and doesn't understand why he doesn't feel fulfilled. It's exactly right. I mean, the boy is a huge taker, the worst. And it's, it's, it's, I don't even know.

3:53People saying this is an allegory from maternal love. No, it's an allegory for an abusive relationship. Yes. This notion of give till it hurts. No, sometimes pain is a sensor telling you to stop something. And so don't give till it hurts and certainly don't give past hurting. And the tree does. Well said. The tree has confused giving with self-sacrifice.

4:23And it almost seems like the tree is the most extreme people pleaser you could possibly imagine. I'm going to neglect whatever my own needs are in order to say yes to whatever this boy asks for. And then you will believe how much I love you. The giving tree illustrates a familiar problem in life and at work. The temptation to say yes to everyone and everything. We think it makes us likable and promotable.

4:53But if you want to build balanced relationships and achieve your goals, you need to master the art of saying no. I'm Adam Grant, and this is Work Life, my podcast with Ted. I'm an organizational psychologist. I study how to make work not suck. In this show, we explore how to unlock the potential in people and workplaces. Today, why it's so hard to say no, and how we can get better at setting boundaries. For a long time, I was a people pleaser.

5:44I bent over backward to say yes to as many people and as many requests as I could. I thought that was core to being a kind giving person, but I was overextending myself. I knew it was bad when I started wondering if I needed to schedule calls with my friends because I was too busy helping randos. Then I read research suggesting that the root of chronic people pleasing is not concern for others. It's concern for their approval. In other words, it's not about them, it's about you.

6:14I wasn't going overboard for others because I cared too much about them. I was doing it because I cared too much about their opinions of me. I said yes because I wanted them to like me and accept me. It probably started as a solution to being bullied in elementary school. But it had created a new problem. I'd come to rely on others for self-esteem. I craved their validation, so I was putting them above myself. The evidence is clear. Not only is that a path to emotional exhaustion, It doesn't actually build strong connections. It creates one-sided relationships where we feel used instead of supported. And at work, it can undermine rather than advance our progress. I needed to learn to say no. But just saying no is not as easy as it sounds. No is a complete sentence is my least favorite expression in all of the self-help literature. It drives me insane.

7:11Vanessa Bonds is a professor of organizational behavior at Cornell, and the author of You Have More Influence Than You Think. She's an expert on the psychology of saying no. And the thing that's funniest to me is like, yes is a complete sentence. So like if you imagine someone asking you for something and you just say, sure, or yes, I'd be happy to. You don't need any justification. You don't need to explain why you said yes.

7:39I don't know anyone who feels comfortable just saying, no, without any explanation or kind of, you know, way of placating the other person. Vanessa knows this from experience. She has a long history of people pleasing. Definitely. I'm such a people pleaser. It's, yeah. Are you just saying that to please me right now? I guess that's the best test of a people pleaser. Are you a people pleaser? And the people pleasers just say yes.

8:05In one of her early studies, Vanessa investigated whether people say yes to requests more often than we realized. She asked people in New York City to guess the odds that strangers would agree to onerous requests, like walking them to a destination they couldn't find or even borrowing their cell phone. Then she sent them out to actually make those requests. Even New Yorkers said yes a lot more than expected. Nearly half agreed to walk people to their destinations and nearly half handed over their cell phones.

8:35across all these different requests. It was typically about twice as likely for people to agree to these requests as our participants expected. So why do we say yes so often? Even to questionable requests from total strangers. One of the best ways I think about a request is essentially someone sort of reaching their hand out to another person. So it's like, I'm extending my hand and asking for your help.

9:02Or it's, I'm extending my hand and asking you for a date. Or it's, I'm extending my hand and asking you to like, join me in this unethical pursuit. But whatever it is, it's like, I'm extending my hand and asking you to cooperate with me. And if you don't take my hand, if you say no, if you reject me, you are not being cooperative. And everything and our being, you know, from how we've evolved to how we've been socialized tells us that we're supposed to cooperate with other people. And so when we say no, We're potentially risking damaging our reputation and looking like uncooperative people. We're potentially damaging our relationship with that person. And then there's also this risk of sort of tangible repercussions, right? It's possible that this person won't reciprocate down the line. It's even possible that they'll get aggressive with us because they're upset. So there's just so many risks, many of them social, but some of them even instrumental, involved in saying no.

10:03Especially at work, where pay and promotions often seem to be riding on saying yes. Surprisingly, we often feel extra pressure with more distant colleagues. It's called the acquaintance trap. With people close to you, your relationship is secure, so you don't need to worry as much about declining. With strangers, there's no relationship, so there's not as much pressure to uphold a reputation.

10:26But with acquaintances, relationships are just uncertain enough that you feel like you can't say no, because you want them to like you. And for certain groups, these pressures are magnified.

10:39are socialized to be communal and cooperative. And so when we say now, when we essentially say, no, I'm not going to cooperate, right? First of all, we aren't living up to the expectations that we've been socialized to have that we're supposed to be communal and cooperative. And so we feel bad about ourselves. We also are often punished reputationally because we're not conforming to the stereotype of women being communal and cooperative. And so people kind of see us as less warm. They may, you know, have sort of a negative impression of us if we say no, because it doesn't fit what they're expecting us to say. I think I was known as like the nice growing class, which as an adult, I look back on and I'm like, hmm, what does that really mean? What does being nice really mean?

11:30Cheri Liu is a content creator and the founder of the Eldest Daughter Club, an online community for Eldest Daughters. She's also a fellow recovering people pleaser. This impulse started as a kid when she really wanted to be liked. And so I think part of being liked though, if you just want everyone to like you, you can't really take too much risks. Like, one thing you can't really say no, someone asked you for something. What kinds of things would you say yes to?

11:57people would ask me for help on homework, people would ask me for help on school projects, and I was happy to say yes and help on those things, but it was not really coming out of a place I feel like where I was like, oh, I genuinely feel like I want to help. It was that, like, I want to make others happy, but I'm also so scared to say no, because what if you're unhappy with me? These experiences led Sherry to create her community of eldest daughters.

12:25They live in the center of a Venn diagram of people pleasing pressure. They're female, and they often take on parenting responsibilities to the young age. My little sister is seven years younger, and when your little sister or little sibling has a significant age gap, you don't grow up as peers. Your little sibling's like looking up to you. And so the eldest daughter part I think of people pleasing comes in when you feel like your actions are just more than your own, and it has this trickle-down effect to your little sibling.

12:54Sherry's cultural background also plays into this. So I'm the eldest daughter of an immigrant family meaning I was born here but my parents immigrated from China and so they brought a different culture in raising and I think like Just in generally Asian cultures, it's more collectivist than the Western culture. You're really cognizant of authority and you want to make sure, like, authority being like your parents or your bosses. And that goes hand in hand with respect. And you want to make sure everyone around you is comfortable and you're always anticipating other people's needs. This proved to be a challenge at the beginning of her career. People think...

13:34me because I am not only Asian woman but also like short and stature that I'm just gonna say yes to everything and they expect me to in a way that I think they don't expect my other colleagues and so When I started my first job, I knew that for me to be successful in corporate America, I can't be saying yes to everything because I need to make sure I get promoted. And I can't be promoted if I'm doing a secretarial work 100% of the time or the work that nobody wants to do and gives it to me and the work that has no impact. And so in the workplace, I was like, OK, I myself am trying my best to not people please and stand up for myself about the same time.

14:16I had to experience this additional challenge of people just thinking like, oh, this is someone who is going to say yes to everything we ask. Research shows that, unfortunately, helping at work is less optional for women than men. Women are asked to do the lion's share of the office housework, taking notes in meetings, planning events. They face more pressure to say yes, but get less credit. It's taken for granted. She's warm and caring. She wants to help.

14:44When a man helps, it's rewarded. I never would have expected him to care about another person. What a great guy! If he declines, he gets a pass, but a woman faces a penalty. Saying no violates the unfair expectation for women to be other-oriented. And these dynamics are often heightened for women of color. So even though Sherry knew this might be a risk going into her job, she still wound up saying yes too often. That is, until she got a new manager.

15:14And I was telling her, I was like, I've worked so hard this year. I've been working towards a promotion, like where am I? And she looked me stern in the face and she was like, all of your projects, you're working a lot, but you're all helping other people. You need something that you own. And I was like, but I don't have time to do any of these things because Everybody needs my support and like I want to help the team and she's like well I'm just gonna be honest with you for you to like gain leverage in the workplace and to like eventually be a senior leader You need to really carve out things of impact that you yourself lead and that means saying no to other extraneous requests It actually doesn't help you to be the most easygoing person in the office and say yes to everything

16:06Everyone's gonna like you, but that won't get you anywhere." And I was like, oh my goodness. I need to start saying no to things. After that conversation in the future, I would go to my managers and I would very clearly articulate what I wanted. I was like, okay, it's my priority to do these things. But just so you know, for me to do these things, I'm going to need the time to do them. And that is going to mean that I might have to say no to requests that maybe my coworkers ask me, requests that maybe sister teams are going to ask me, requests maybe like upper manager might ask me, and I'm going to have to count on you as my manager to help me say no and to help me deflect things that aren't actually going to be important on my team. That conversation made a difference.

16:59It made it so much easier for me to say no because I also knew that my manager was on my side and that they would also stick up for me. And that saying no wouldn't mean people thinking I was a bad coworker because it would be clear that I'm saying no because I want to say yes on the things that are actually unfortunate. It's easy to default to saying yes. But as Sherry learned, there are big payoffs to protecting your own time and boundaries.

17:28How do you say no without jeopardizing your reputation and relationships? More on that after the break. Back in 2013, the New York Times magazine did a cover story about my research on why it's better to be a giver than a taker. It was called, Is Giving the Secret to Getting Ahead? And it went into detail about my efforts to help as many people as I could. I'd become a caricature of a giver, and after the article came out, people started seeing me as the generosity guy.

18:14It was like a flashing neon sign for takers. This guy will say yes to anything. I got flooded with thousands of emails from acquaintances and complete strangers wanting things. It was a wake-up call. I realized that there's a big difference between pleasing people and helping them.

18:41I have a lot to say about that. So essentially, you know, there's a distinction between giving and giving in. In her research, Vanessa Bonds has found that saying no doesn't have to burn bridges. We do tend to overestimate how negatively we'll be seen if we say no. I think.

18:59part of that is because we're so focused on this one moment. This is super salient. We pay attention to the thing that's right in front of our face, a super tangible thing. And we're like, oh, this is the only way people are going to know me in this moment. But in fact, people have a much longer term impression of us. They've seen all the times we have helped. And this is just one out of many instances. Once you accept that it's acceptable to say no, you need some boundaries. I certainly did.

19:29My favorite way to set them is to create personal policies. Instead of treating every request as a separate dilemma, I made a list of guidelines for what kinds of requests I wouldn't fulfill. I don't work for companies for free. I don't give career advice to strangers. I don't write forwards to books. It's one thing to set boundaries. It's another to communicate them. For more than a decade, I've been test driving strategies for saying no.

19:56and I've found three that consistently work. They tend to avoid negative reactions, and sometimes even elicit positive ones, like, wow, I respect your boundaries, and, huh, I need to do more of that myself. You could just say no, but if you're worried that the other person might be upset, it can be helpful to give reasons. Research suggests that when you provide a credible explanation, people are more understanding, even if it's not the response they wanted. That goes to my first strategy for saying no.

20:25Explain your personal policies. When you walk through your philosophy on boundaries, you make it clear to people that you're not rejecting them. It's not about them at all. Totally. It's like those email signatures that say like, I don't check email during these hours. It's like not only protecting your time, it's teaching people a norm. Like maybe we all shouldn't check email at those hours. An easy one is like, will you post about my book on social media? No, that would quickly turn my feed into book launch spam.

20:54I can't do it for everyone. I won't do it for anyone. Yeah. You know what's funny about that too? You know, speaking as someone who asked you for a book endorsement, my assumption going in is like, this person's going to say no. And so, you know, you knowing that as the person being asked that that person doesn't necessarily expect a yes, right? If they do, that's.

21:18kind of entitled. And I feel like that's a different category of person. So like most people are not expecting a yes. So a polite, warm, thoughtful no is like a win for a lot of people, right? Sure enough, there's evidence that if you're the one being asked, you tend to focus on the outcome for the help seeker. But they judge the interaction more by how they're treated in the process.

21:42Wow, Adam Grant sent me a really nice email back. He couldn't do it, and that's fine. I mean, he's really busy. So I think understanding that people don't necessarily expect a yes, and they're pleasantly surprised when you do say yes. I think that's just an important thing to know. This speaks to the second strategy, conveying care. You can say no in a way that still shows concern for others.

22:07When I go to the grocery store, they always ask for donations. And I always say, oh, I've already given this year. And that makes me feel like, OK, I've said I'm a generous person. You know, I've declined nicely, but it's a clear no. Research reveals that this is especially effective for women to avoid backlash.

22:28So one thing a lot of women I know do is they'll have a list of all the things that they have agreed to. And so they'll say, you know, I would love to do this, but I'm doing one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, you know, all these other things. And that shows like, look at how giving and communal and cooperative I've been. I'm a major contributor to this organization. But I just can't say yes to this. I have too much on my plate. I often just say, sorry, my plate is beyond full.

22:57Then I offer something that cost me nothing, but I hope is beneficial to them. For the most common requests, I've written up responses to frequently asked questions. Strangers seeking career advice get a list of my favorite books, articles and podcasts. Authors asking for forwards get a brain dump of the lessons I've learned about how to promote a book. And companies seeking speakers get recommendations for authors who are launching new books. That speaks to the final strategy, the referral.

23:28When somebody asks for your help, you can give it yourself or you can help that person sometimes just as well as if you did it yourself by referring them to another person, right? You could say, you know, I could help you, but actually my colleague knows even more about that and I'd be happy to refer you to them. But research has shown that we really don't like to do that. It's called referral aversion.

23:54We worry, first of all, that it's going to make us look incompetent, right? So that kind of gets at this idea of like my reputational concerns. And people also worry that it's going to kind of damage the relationship with the other person. I think there's a sense of like, I am worthy as long as people need me. We're also afraid that by passing the baton, we'll be letting others down. And it turns out those fears are generally misplaced.

24:23We actually overestimate how much people are disappointed by getting a referral, right? And so that that concern is often bigger in our own heads than it is for the other person. And so if it was purely other oriented, right, it might be best for the other person for you to refer them elsewhere. And yet we hold on to that request and we feel like we need to take it on ourselves.

24:50the day that I became not only comfortable, but also enthusiastic about saying, you know what? I actually know someone who's more qualified to help on this and also is going to take more time for you. Like the day I was excited to do that is the day I felt like I was starting to get over this, this chronic need to be liked. And I think that it sort of crystallized for me as a difference between being needed and being valued, that if I felt like other people needed me, Um, I felt like they were dependent on me and it was creating a sense of obligation that I had to help them. And I would worry about them. I would feel guilty if I let them down. And what I want is to be valued. Absolutely. There is so much.

25:33sort of advice and information out there for how to get better at saying no and We tend to put so much pressure on the person who has to say no to be the one to manage that right to come up with you know We have these strategies like you and I have been talking about but there's a responsibility on the people asking to ask in ways that aren't coercive The data point to several ways to do that to avoid imposing you can ask would you or someone you know be willing to Vanessa finds that it also helps to give people the words to say no. When I make requests, I often say no pressure, no obligation, no repercussions. And when I invited Vanessa to this podcast, I couldn't resist writing, if you'd like to refuse, please say the words hell no.

26:21We found that when you give people the words to say no, that they don't necessarily say no more, although maybe a little bit. But the big thing is they feel more like they could have said no, right? It feels more voluntary when they do agree. Another way to show respect is giving people time to process. So making a request and saying, you know, let me know tomorrow, or let me know when you've had some time to think about it. And asking over email is a much less course than asking in person. How much less?

26:51In one study, Vanessa found that people were 34 times more likely to say yes face to face than by email. And so I often give the advice of if someone asks you something in person, face to face, ask them if you could take some time and respond over email.

27:08say, uh, I'll think about that a little bit. I'll send you an email with my answer tomorrow or whatever it is. So that is kind of getting you out of that pressure zone, giving you some time to think, actually make a mindful decision about what you want to do and then respond to them in a way that you feel good about, right? I mean, that's another thing to think about. Like each time we say yes to something, we're kind of, uh, saying this is okay. Right? We're saying like it is acceptable for us to ask these things. Sometimes we don't want people to feel like, Oh, that was wrong to ask. But sometimes it's like, no, I'm actually

27:37going to teach you that this isn't something you should be asking for. I'm so glad you brought that up. I was just talking with our students about this. And we had an example where a student said, she's one of the only people she knows on campus with a car. So whenever anybody she knows needs something that requires transportation, they basically impose on her for car privileges. And she said it was starting to damage some of her friendships. And they were using her. But she didn't want to hurt the relationship.

28:05And I was like, look at this from the other side, which is every time you say, yes, you are licensing and reinforcing that behavior. And you're failing to educate people and teach them that you have boundaries. And so setting a boundary is actually not only a chance for you to protect your time and your relationships, it's also a chance for those people to learn what's a reasonable ask and what's inappropriate.

28:29I had a colleague who just kept asking me shamelessly for things that were unreasonable in the first place. Like, will you read and comment line by line on seven of my papers? And I did my usual polite nose, and he just would not go away. And finally, it must have been the seventh or eighth request. I wrote back and I said, I'm working on getting better at saying no. Thank you for the practice.

28:57I love that. That's one of the the recommendations I give to when people want a reason to say no. That's like it's not because I'm a bad person. It's not because I'm not helpful. It's just I'm working on this. It says like I am. My default is to say yes to this, but like I'm doing it too much. Don't be afraid to have some fun with it. E.B. White, the author of Charlotte's Web, once turned down an invitation by writing, I must decline for secret reasons.

29:29An amusing or thoughtful no may well be appreciated more than a thoughtless yes, as Sherry Liu found out. She got in the habit of explaining her boundaries and conveying care. Like, immediately I would say, hey, I, you know, I'm at bandwidth right now, but I wouldn't just say no straight up, I would offer what I can help. If I were you, this is how I would approach it, and I would give them maybe a framework to go about it. She made referrals. I would say, I, you know, can't help you at this time. However, if you need it urgently, so-and-so might be able to give you the answer. She learned that saying no wasn't as scary or risky as she'd expected. What surprised me when I started saying no in just all aspects of life is that people are actually really understanding. Like, most people when they ask you something is not like...

30:24Life or death situation or it's not black or white. It's not like they ask you something if you don't do it. They'll stop being your friend and I think when you start saying no and you realize sometimes people are just like, okay, no worries. I'll do myself or like no worries. I'll ask somebody else. You're like this thing that I in my head that was just so important to them actually was not that Important to them that I helped them with it at this specific moment And when someone says no to me for a good reason, I'm like, okay, whatever. I totally understand. And I'm like, okay, wait, if I react like this, then why do I feel like people are gonna dislike me if I do the same exact thing? It's so interesting to hear you say this. As a long recovering slash mostly recovered people, please, are one of the things that I've been...

31:16surprised by is sometimes like a clear fast no leads people to respect me more. You know, let me, this is like an odd example, but you know how like, are you a cat person, Adam? We have two cats. How'd you know?

31:31I don't know, I had a guess, I had a guess. But I think cats get more respect sometimes because they draw strong boundaries, you know? And then when a cat like, when a cat who's not very cuddly comes in like cuddles you on your lap or like gives you affection, you're like, oh my goodness, like this day is like the best day ever. Like they chose me versus like maybe a dog. My family has a dog. She is like cuddly all the time and super affectionate. And when she's affectionate, like we are also very happy, but it's not the same amount of shock and joy.

32:01as if like a cat who doesn't do that does it to you. I have to laugh at the cat comment because I'll never forget when I turned in my first book, I remember my editor reading it and saying, you know, Adam, dogs are givers and cats are takers. Do you agree? No, I don't agree. Yeah, I think cats are, they're more selective and that means it really counts when they give.

32:30Mmm, what does that say? Setting boundaries isn't a display of disrespect. It's an expression of self-respect. It's not about letting others down. It's about standing up for yourself. Saying no is not selfish. It's an act of self-preservation, which brings us back to the giving tree. Or, as Topher Payne's rewrite is called, the tree who set healthy boundaries.

32:58His version starts when the boy is grown up and returns to the tree for the first time. I am too busy to climb trees, said the boy. I want a house to keep me warm, he said. I want a wife, and I want children, and so I need a house. Can you give me a house? And the tree said, OK, hold up. This is already getting out of hand. Look, I was fine with giving you the apples to help you get on your feet. They'll grow back next season anyway.

33:26No, I'm not giving you a house. You know, I've seen boys like you pull this nonsense with other trees in the forest. First, it's the apples, then branches, then the trunk. And before you know it, that mighty beautiful tree is just a sad little stump. Well, look here, boy. I love you like family, but I am not going down like that. And the boy is OK with that. He realizes he hasn't been a very good friend.

33:55and begins to look after the tree, just like the tree looked after him. Eventually, he has kids who also love the tree. And as each generation played in her strong old branches, the tree often thought back to the fateful day when the boy had asked her for a house. In truth, she would have gladly given him her branches to build one. She would have given him her trunk to build a boat. She loved him that much.

34:27But then she would have had nothing left. Not for herself nor anyone else. And there never would have been a home for the Red Squirrels. There'd have been no hide-and-seek with the boys' grandchildren. No bakery with the best apple pies anyone ever tasted. Setting healthy boundaries is a very important part of giving. It assures you'll always have something left to give. And so the tree was happy.

34:56Everyone was. The end. This episode was produced by Daphne Chen. Our team includes Brittany Cronin, Constanza Gallardo, Greta Cohn, Grace Rubinstein, Daniela Balarezzo, Ben Ben Chang, Alejandra Salazar, and Roxanne Hilash. Our fact-checker is Paul Durbin. Our show is mixed by Sarah Brugger, original music by Hans Del Su and Allison Leighton-Brown. Gratitude to the following researchers and their colleagues. Heidi Fritz and Vicky Helgeson on Unmitigated Communion.

35:47Vanessa Patrick on the acquaintance trap. Madeleine Heilman and Julie Chen on gender and helping. Linda Babcock in colleagues on non-promotable tasks. Jennifer Burdahl and Celia Moore on double jeopardy in the workplace. Dalian Canan in colleagues on giving versus giving in. Jerry Greenberg and Tom Tyler on legitimacy. Joel Brockner on receiver reactions. Hannah Riley Bulls on women in negotiation tactics. Yejin Park on referral aversion. Vanessa's co-authors Frank Flynn, Rachel Schlund and Maddie Roganizade.

36:15Thanks to Izzy Carter and Theo Bydler. All right, what's one you want to throw at me? What's the hardest request for you to say no to? I feel like I should eat my own dog food here. I mean, I guess, you know, Adam, I have another book coming out. Will you plug it on social media? To borrow a line from Jim on the Office. That is not something I am going to do.

36:53Adam Grant is so mean.